---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/04/06: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:24 AM - Re: Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review (Kingsley Hurst) 2. 05:26 AM - Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (Gary Casey) 3. 05:28 AM - Re: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) (Ken) 4. 05:36 AM - Re: Pull to low (N395V) 5. 06:38 AM - Re: Thoughts on Teaching (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:44 AM - Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (N395V) 7. 07:01 AM - Re: RBM/Stancor/White-Rogers Contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 07:42 AM - Connectors vs. Straight Wire (Dennis Johnson) 9. 07:42 AM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:53 AM - Thinking things electic (Rodney Dunham) 11. 08:21 AM - hugo rv10 () 12. 08:36 AM - Re: Connectors vs. Straight Wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 08:48 AM - Re: hugo rv10 (Ken) 14. 09:06 AM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (James Redmon) 15. 09:16 AM - Re: hugo rv10 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 09:19 AM - Re: Thinking things electic (Jim Baker) 17. 09:19 AM - Re: hugo rv10 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 18. 09:51 AM - Re: Thinking things electic (Dave N6030X) 19. 10:36 AM - hugo rv10 () 20. 10:36 AM - hugo rv10 () 21. 10:41 AM - Re: Coax Crimp tools (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Coax Crimp tools (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 23. 11:25 AM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (N395V) 24. 11:25 AM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (SteinAir, Inc.) 25. 12:03 PM - Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (Eric M. Jones) 26. 01:30 PM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (N395V) 27. 01:54 PM - Re: Strobe Wiring (Roger Venables) 28. 04:07 PM - hugo rv10 () 29. 04:24 PM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 30. 04:38 PM - Re: Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 31. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) (William Slaughter) 32. 05:53 PM - Master contactor doesn't work anymore? () 33. 06:16 PM - Re: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 34. 06:34 PM - Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 (N395V) 35. 07:55 PM - Knurl driver.... (Jim Baker) 36. 08:31 PM - Radio Rack Screws (Chris Byrne) 37. 09:24 PM - Re: Radio Rack Screws (Charlie Kuss) 38. 09:52 PM - Re: Radio Rack Screws (Franz Fux) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:50 AM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Modified Z13-20 for Peer Review --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" Larry, May I respectfully suggest you connect your starter warning lamp between the downstream side of the starter contactor and ground. If you ever see the light on when you are not pressing the starter button, you will know that the starter contactor has stuck in. IOW, watch the light as you press the starter button and it should go out immediately the button is released. Cheers Kingsley in Oz. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:27 AM PST US From: Gary Casey Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey I have a suggestion for the reasons a manufacturer wants the relay mounted in a certain orientation, based on experience doing similar things. It has mostly to do with water: Generally, you want to mount the part in a way that water has the least chance of getting inside, so the cap is made like a roof so the water runs off. Also, you want to have the internals arranged in a way that a drop of water inside has the least chance of causing a corrosion failure. That might be to have the electrical connections to the coil at the top - or the contacts could be at the top if they are more vulnerable. Reasons like this make far more sense than G-load resistance. Gary Casey ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:08 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken I guess there are always differing viewpoints Raymond which is often a good thing. When I read the answers quickly I am less likely to retain the knowledge although I guess I can always come back and search the archives which is perhaps part of your viewpoint. But when there is some give and take on a question, someone often comes up with a new idea or two that goes beyond what the "teacher" would have given and we learn more than we otherwise would. A dynamic classroom is usually more fun for all. Ken L. raymondj wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "raymondj" > >Mr. Nuckolls, > >It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for >students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking >the solutions. > >I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time >to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation. > >I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available >data as practical at the beginning of the solution process. > >Thank you for taking the time to respond. > >Cordially, >Raymond Julian > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:32 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pull to low From: "N395V" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" ThanksMatt do not archive -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65691#65691 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Thoughts on Teaching --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:43 AM 10/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "raymondj" > >Mr. Nuckolls, > >It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for >students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking >the solutions. I disagree. Permit me to elaborate: I was exceedingly fortunate in my formative years to have enjoyed the attention of an engineer at Boeing who was also an amateur radio operator. I knew ALL the hams within about 20 blocks of my house. Ed was particularly influential in that he never directly answered a question. He began to ask me questions . . . laying foundations which supported the answer I was looking for. More often than not, I would end up answering my own question. The process of mental imaging and logical assemblage of simple-ideas were powerful teaching tools. I used those tools only years later when he got me my first teaching job at Wichita U in an adult education course where a number of my students were former foremen of mine at Boeing. A few years later, those tools served me (and my students) well at Great Lakes. I'll respectfully suggest that the marginally interested student is ONLY seeking answers. Charles Kettering once noted: "Knowledge is not understanding. One may know a great deal and yet understand nothing." It's the INTENTLY interested individual that ENJOYS and will take the time to ponder the underlying support for a concept so that understanding is achieved. >I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time >to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation. One may be motivated to do many things and on many levels. The hallmark of achievement at anything is never a turn-key process. Tiger Woods probably hits balls every day. Yehudi Menuhin picked up his violin every day. Thomas Edison's thinking was probably NEVER silent on the task of pondering some new problem. If there are other ways to achieve understanding, I don't know what they are. However, if I can make it fun too, THEN there is hope for gathering the marginally interested student into the conversation as well. Therefore I (and those who would take time to participate here on the List) are stuck with the best I know how to do today. It's never easy but if it isn't fun too, then folks are free to take their business elsewhere. >I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available >data as practical at the beginning of the solution process. >Thank you for taking the time to respond. I understand but as I wrote earlier I am disappointed that you are disappointed. Please understand that if my motivation were to simply be a disseminator of esoteric knowledge, then I am in danger of being replaced by Ask.com and Google. If I am to honor those to took the time to share with me in years past, then it's my duty to understand the value of what they gave me and to pass my inheritance forward. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 From: "N395V" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them?? -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65705#65705 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RBM/Stancor/White-Rogers Contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:24 AM 10/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey > >I have a suggestion for the reasons a manufacturer wants the relay >mounted in a certain orientation, based on experience doing similar >things. It has mostly to do with water: Generally, you want to >mount the part in a way that water has the least chance of getting >inside, so the cap is made like a roof so the water runs off. In this case, the mfgr has suggested "cap down" . . . but yes, water may have been a driving consideration. > Also, >you want to have the internals arranged in a way that a drop of water >inside has the least chance of causing a corrosion failure. That >might be to have the electrical connections to the coil at the top - >or the contacts could be at the top if they are more vulnerable. >Reasons like this make far more sense than G-load resistance. Sure. Of course, the guys who designed this thing have been dead for decades. The guys who wrote/modified the data sheets over the years are not accessible to us. So the best we can do is apply whatever understanding we can to the question. I've encountered several failure modes on sophisticated products where the present powers-that-be go to great lengths to obfuscate reality. Unlike engineers who are interested in exercising and improving on the best-we-know- how-to-do, others will exert no small effort to avoid confessing to less-than-the-best. It's a lawyer thing. It may be that the orientation suggestion on the data sheet was added after years of field experience where water became a consideration. That might have been during the era of floating cowl issues on Cessnas back in the 70's . . . but I doubt it. For every airplane that carries an RBM/Stancor/White-Rogers contactor, there's hundreds of boats, fork lifts, etc. that use them too. Bottom line is that we'll never know the original thinking or intent. The alternative is due diligence for reverse engineering. Disassemble a design looking for the simple-ideas that both support a hypothesis or explain a failure. In any case, if the task is done well, it's not uncommon for the consumer of a legacy product to end up knowing more about that product than the manufacturer! That happens all too often in aviation (and I suspect elsewhere). To recap I think we can agree that (1) cap-down orientation improves probability of survival for cool splash ingestion of water (water pools away from vitals). Hmmmm . . . wonder about adding a drain hole in a down-facing cap! (2) cap-down increases gravity aided, contact spreading velocity for an improvement of contact service life. Any other thoughts out there? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:15 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Connectors vs. Straight Wire Hi Stein, Thanks so much for your very thoughtful reply to my question about the trade-offs between straight-wiring my instrument panel to the airframe wiring and the alternative of putting connectors in every wire so that I can remove the panel for service. I think I'll take your advice and go with the straight-wire concept, without connectors in every wire. The airplane I'm building has better than average access to the panel in-place and most of the stuff in the panel are relatively easy to remove. Thanks again, Dennis Johnson Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:43 AM 10/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" > >Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin >extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng >PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them?? Do the connectors have any numbers or brand names on them? It's seldom possible to identify tools specific to connectors based on the brand of product that uses the connector. If you can see any identifying clues as to the manufacturer of the connector, then we can access catalogs for those devices and identify descriptions and sources for the tools. If you have a digital camera, take some closeups of the connector body and email them to me. Perhaps I can identify the connector by seeing its design. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:07 AM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thinking things electic --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" Raymond, I recently heard an interesting saying. It goes like this... 5% of the people think. 10% of the people think they think. and 85% of the people would rather DIE than think. When I graduated from medical school my head was crammed full of "answers". I could spout facts like nobody's business. Then I met the public and realized I didn't know how to "doctor" people. In other words, I didn't know how to think like a doctor! This revelation came early in my career in a busy ER in Knoxville, Tennessee. I had a patient with a sore throat and I didn't know how to treat it, or even where to go to find out. Shocking, isn't it? I was already an MD. In fact, I already knew how to treat heart attack, stroke and many serious and life threatening conditions. But I didn't know how to evaluate that sore throat! I was taken aback, as you might guess. Fortunately, I had a teacher supervising me who was ready to fill the gaps in my knowledge. And, even more fortunately, I learned from him how to evaluate patients, or more correctly, their problems. At first, I was miffed at him because when I asked him how to treat this patient, he handed me an article to read! I was busy! The ER was jumping and this "minor" problem was bogging me down. But, since I wasn't the only MD on duty, and I was in training after all, I sat down and quickly read the article. After I was done, I knew what to do. But, most curious of all, I had been exposed to the thought processes of the author and it transformed my thinking! I have continually worked to hone my skills as a medical thinker for the past 25 years. But that teacher was the beginning of my real medical education. Likewise, Bob Nuckolls has been the beginning of my electrical education. He makes it fun and rewarding. I like it so much I've read the 'Connection at least a half dozen times. I read this list every day. I've come to LIKE wiring airplanes! When I tell my OBAM airplane buddies, they just shake their heads in disbelief. One even asked if I would wire his! :o) You see, they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They don't want to have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to fly them! And, who's to blame them for that? That's why most of us build the dern things, isn't it? They are content to wire theirs according to the suggested diagrams supplied with the kit. Why not? It works, doesn't it? But we AeroElectric listers are the chosen few. Either by education or avocation we find ourselves thinking things electric. Sure, we want answers, but, even better, we want our fancies tickled! That's what Bob is doing here. We like it! We'll have the "answer" soon enough. But I'd like to know if my manner of thinking works! After all, I may be up there screaming along in my Sky Scorcher someday when things go awry and I'm gonna be all I've got to get things managable! I want the confidence to get that done. And Bob's method of teaching fills that need for me. At least concerning things electric. Rodney in Tennessee Unabashed Nuckollhead ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:29 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi all,still with antennas questions, almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i ordered,now the choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted choice of BNC connectors (only one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't be solder,ok order allready the 70 dol crimping tool.but still one part missing wich is a metal sleeve wich slide over the conection and allow to be crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats sleeve,can some one help me to understand or a place to order the part. thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems Hugo do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors vs. Straight Wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:37 AM 10/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Stein, > >Thanks so much for your very thoughtful reply to my question about the >trade-offs between straight-wiring my instrument panel to the airframe >wiring and the alternative of putting connectors in every wire so that I >can remove the panel for service. > >I think I'll take your advice and go with the straight-wire concept, >without connectors in every wire. The airplane I'm building has better >than average access to the panel in-place and most of the stuff in the >panel are relatively easy to remove. From a servicing perspective, consider making your panel from "modules" of flat sheet, each removable for servicing. Make wire bundles to each module long enough to allow pulling the module out for access while extending a bundle. When mounted for operation, coil the bundles behind the panel and secure with tye-wraps. If your bundles are not too populace, this is a good way to maintain both serviceability =AND wire integrity. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:59 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Hugo The steinair website may help you. http://steinair.com/connectors.htm I believe that any connector that fits RG-58 will fit RG400 and I used a $20. imported crimper that worked fine for me. Ken L. gommone7@bellsouth.net wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Hi all,still with antennas questions, >almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i ordered,now the choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted choice of BNC connectors (only one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't be solder,ok order allready the 70 dol crimping tool.but still one part missing wich is a metal sleeve wich slide over the conection and allow to be crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats sleeve,can some one help me to understand or a place to order the part. >thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems >Hugo > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:48 AM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" Without knowing exactly what kind of socket/pin combination you have, it's impossible to know for sure. However, I but it uses the same card-edge Molex KK pins/connectors that most other King radio equipment uses. If so, this will help you out: http://www.berkut13.com/extractor.htm James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" > > Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin > extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng > PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them?? > > -------- > Milt > N395V > F1 Rocket ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Ken is correct. Dimensionally, RG-58 and RG400 are close enough to use the same connectors and application tools. The only 'catch' is to get your 'cheap' tool and connectors from the same supplier . . . presumably, like me, they'll make sure that their connectors are compatible with their tools. It's a rare problem but NOT zero risk. Alternatively, one can purchase mil-spec connectors and tools from anyone with a high expectation for mix-n-match between tools and connectors. Bob . . . At 11:48 AM 10/4/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >Hi Hugo > >The steinair website may help you. >http://steinair.com/connectors.htm >I believe that any connector that fits RG-58 will fit RG400 and I used a >$20. imported crimper that worked fine for me. > >Ken L. > >gommone7@bellsouth.net wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >>Hi all,still with antennas questions, >>almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i ordered,now >>the choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted choice of BNC >>connectors (only one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't be solder,ok >>order allready the 70 dol crimping tool.but still one part missing wich >>is a metal sleeve wich slide over the conection and allow to be >>crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats sleeve,can some one help me to >>understand or a place to order the part. >>thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems >>Hugo >> > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:23 AM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thinking things electic X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > You see, > they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They don't want to > have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to fly them! > And, who's to blame them for that? Let's look at that a different way. First a backgrounder... My Dad taught me to fly. He was a CFII and and A&P w/ IA. I learned to fly and learned systems and the why and how of those systems and could work on them, too. On the other hand, I'm neither of the above. Those folks who just want to "fly" aren't, I believe, being properly grounded in systems theory, either mechanical/electro- mechanical/electrical. Those with a passion for learning beyond "flying" make better pilots in my estimation. I'm marginal when it comes to pure electrical but can generally get the information I need to act on some issue. I have a better handle on mechanical/electro-mechanical. Am I a whiz? Nope. Not even close...just persistent and methodical. Not thinking will get you in world of hurt. Don't question conventional wisdom and you'll have to accept the consequences. Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:54 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Radioshack also has one for 11 bucks Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:49 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Hugo The steinair website may help you. http://steinair.com/connectors.htm I believe that any connector that fits RG-58 will fit RG400 and I used a $20. imported crimper that worked fine for me. Ken L. gommone7@bellsouth.net wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Hi all,still with antennas questions, >almost everybody suggest to use rg400u coaxial cable ,good, i ordered,now the choice in the usual catalogs have a very restricted choice of BNC connectors (only one tipe )will fit the RG 400,and can't be solder,ok order allready the 70 dol crimping tool.but still one part missing wich is a metal sleeve wich slide over the conection and allow to be crimped,if I'm rigth ,no body sale thats sleeve,can some one help me to understand or a place to order the part. >thanks ,and sorry for my lack of knoledge in electrical systems Hugo > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:27 AM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thinking things electic --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X I am finding it more and more difficult to remember things by rote. I do much better when someone tells me WHY something is a certain way, because then I can derive the answer over and over again, if I should forget the actual answer. For instance, I forget the final approach speed I'm supposed to use in a C-172. But if I know that you can derive that number from 1.3 times the stall speed, then I can compute it for any airplane, not just the C-172. Sometimes there are other factors that have to be considered in an answer. For example, my instructor tells me that the final approach speed for my Mooney should be 80mph. Nail that 80mph and I've got a great shot and a great landing. But 80mph I can get in a thousand different ways. One of them has the nose pointed way up into the sky and full power. That's 80mph. One has the nose exactly at the horizon, and less power. Should I be using either of those "80" attitudes when setting up for landing? No. Neither should I be using the "all power off" 80, because it turns out, that, too is 80, but the sink rate is way too high. So, my instructor tells me the other factors that go into the 80 I should have. I should have about 400fpm sink rate, then adjust manifold pressure to get 80. And he explains all about the amount of angular change to round out the flare with a 400fpm sink rate versus a 600fpm sink rate, etc. etc. He asks me, when there is a 20mph headwind, does that change your rate of climb or your angle of climb? Does it change your angle of descent? So what should you do when landing into a strong headwind? If he just said "remember the answer is 80", that would not teach me what I really need to know to handle all situations that I'm going to encounter. An interesting thing I learned by seeing the inside of the contactor was the spring. Now, admittedly that spring is hardly stressed, and will probably never break, but if the contactor is mounted upside-down, then voila, the spring is not needed because gravity will do the same job. So there's another, albeit tiny, data point. (I will admit that I've been cursed with "but why" ever since I was a kid.) Dave Morris At 11:18 AM 10/4/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > > > You see, > > they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They > don't want to > > have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to > fly them! > > And, who's to blame them for that? > >Let's look at that a different way. First a backgrounder... > >My Dad taught me to fly. He was a CFII and and A&P w/ IA. I >learned to fly and learned systems and the why and how of those >systems and could work on them, too. On the other hand, I'm >neither of the above. > >Those folks who just want to "fly" aren't, I believe, being properly >grounded in systems theory, either mechanical/electro- >mechanical/electrical. Those with a passion for learning beyond >"flying" make better pilots in my estimation. I'm marginal when it >comes to pure electrical but can generally get the information I >need to act on some issue. I have a better handle on >mechanical/electro-mechanical. Am I a whiz? Nope. Not even >close...just persistent and methodical. > >Not thinking will get you in world of hurt. Don't question >conventional wisdom and you'll have to accept the >consequences. > > >Jim Baker >580.788.2779 >Elmore City, OK > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:25 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Thanka at all. hugo ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:26 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Thanka at all. hugo ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Coax Crimp tools --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:19 AM 10/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >Radioshack also has one for 11 bucks > >Frank I think the 'low cost' coax tool at RS is for television "F" connectors. They also list a tool with hex dies and a "small" hole for about $18.00 See http://tinyurl.com/jbn46 For MOST of the RG-58/RG-400 connectors out there you need a reasonably accurate .213" hex die (shield sleeve) and a .068" square or hex die (center pin). I've encountered tools that were properly marked but in fact were slightly over or under-sized and didn't produce the desired crimp. You can take a pair of calipers with you to the store http://tinyurl.com/8b18 and check the tool before you buy it. Go for .213" minus .000" plus .001" and .068" plus/minus .001" These tools are made and offered by dozens of folks from all walks of technology and while most are pretty good, you don't want to find one that's not so good AFTER you've bought the tool and are needing to FINISH the job. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Coax Crimp tools From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Good point. The Radioshack deal is in fact listed for RG58 and appeared to work very well. FWIW Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 10:40 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Coax Crimp tools --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 11:19 AM 10/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >Radioshack also has one for 11 bucks > >Frank I think the 'low cost' coax tool at RS is for television "F" connectors. They also list a tool with hex dies and a "small" hole for about $18.00 See http://tinyurl.com/jbn46 For MOST of the RG-58/RG-400 connectors out there you need a reasonably accurate .213" hex die (shield sleeve) and a .068" square or hex die (center pin). I've encountered tools that were properly marked but in fact were slightly over or under-sized and didn't produce the desired crimp. You can take a pair of calipers with you to the store http://tinyurl.com/8b18 and check the tool before you buy it. Go for .213" minus .000" plus .001" and .068" plus/minus .001" These tools are made and offered by dozens of folks from all walks of technology and while most are pretty good, you don't want to find one that's not so good AFTER you've bought the tool and are needing to FINISH the job. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:22 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 From: "N395V" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" james(at)berkut13.com wrote: > Without knowing exactly what kind of socket/pin combination you have, it's > impossible to know for sure. However, I but it uses the same card-edge > Molex KK pins/connectors that most other King radio equipment uses. > James, Thats exactly the connector and the exact solution I needed, It worked like a charm. Thank you do not archive -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65790#65790 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:22 AM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "SteinAir, Inc." They are standard molex/narco/king/pse square molex type pins. Instead of spending $40-60 on the "official" pin tool...do the following Flatten the end of a piece of .040" safety wire...works great. Use a "bobby pin" Use a flattened paper clip or - what we use in my shop. Take an old piece of a hacksaw blade, take it to be belt sander and sand a nice small flat "finger" into the end of it about .040" wide. Works great and rarely breaks, and doesn't cost anything! Any of the above solutions will work great. Cheers, Stein. >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert >L. Nuckolls, III >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:42 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 06:43 AM 10/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" >> >>Anyone have any idea of the name or number for the honeywell pin >>extraction and insertion tool for the connectors on KMA 24 or PS eng >>PMA7000 audio panels and where I can get them?? > > Do the connectors have any numbers or brand names on > them? It's seldom possible to identify tools specific > to connectors based on the brand of product that uses > the connector. If you can see any identifying clues as > to the manufacturer of the connector, then we can access catalogs > for those devices and identify descriptions and sources > for the tools. > > If you have a digital camera, take some closeups of > the connector body and email them to me. Perhaps I can > identify the connector by seeing its design. > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:59 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink From: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Bob said: > Plunger position or even the presence of a plunger > does not influence static coil current. Oops...Yes you are right... Re: Fuller Quote-- At least I have refrained from using as a signature: "Concepts of space and time are certainly doomed." Dr. Edward Witten -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65797#65797 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 From: "N395V" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" I'd like to take this opportunity to put in a plug for Steinair. Throughout my project he and all of his employees have been immensly helpful in answering questions, giving advice, expediting parts, and finding sources in order to help me complete my panel. I am sure they consumed many valuable hours out of their busy schedules to help. This is one top notch group of people. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65813#65813 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:45 PM PST US From: "Roger Venables" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Roger Venables" Jeff I recently attended the EAA electrical workshop and asked the same question (different plane!) The answer I got was that the shielding should be bridged, that is solder tags to the shielding on either side and connect through the molex plug Hope this is helpful Roger Venables Zenith 701 Kenmore, WA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Moreau Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 12:17 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Moreau" I am installing Whelen wingtip strobes on my RV8. I have installed a molex multi-pin plug at the wing root in the event that I ever have to remove the wings. Does anyone feel that this is inviting a problem with electrial "noise" in my system. I know that this is a shielded cable. I am a novice and would welcome any comments or suggestions. Jeff -------- Jeff Moreau RV8A Virginia Beach, VA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65535#65535 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:17 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: hugo rv10 Thanks again for the answer,but personaly never purchase cheap tools,use few times but allways do perfect job. Now my next question. ELT antenna,in a 180knots airplane I thinks a flexible spring antenna will be out of question ,I belive can't be mount inside an a aluminum plane,I found a spot under the vertical stabilizer ,the 10 use a thin fiberglass fairing,what you guys thinks will work?,.eventualy need to work only one time,in a shallow accidents probably don't needed but in a bad one ,the the antenna will be pointing up and almost at the highest point,(sorry for the humor) here the pictures , thanks again ,Hugo ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:23 PM 10/4/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "SteinAir, Inc." > >They are standard molex/narco/king/pse square molex type pins. Instead of >spending $40-60 on the "official" pin tool...do the following > >Flatten the end of a piece of .040" safety wire...works great. >Use a "bobby pin" >Use a flattened paper clip > >or - what we use in my shop. Take an old piece of a hacksaw blade, take it >to be belt sander and sand a nice small flat "finger" into the end of it >about .040" wide. Works great and rarely breaks, and doesn't cost anything! > >Any of the above solutions will work great. Aha! THAT kind of tool. I've got a bunch of them, none are purchased. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/extraction_tool.jpg . . . any dimestore pocket screwdriver can be dressed down with your sander, grinder, etc to provide the proper tab dimensions for unlocking this style of pin. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:29 PM 10/4/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" > >I'd like to take this opportunity to put in a plug for Steinair. > >Throughout my project he and all of his employees have been immensly >helpful in answering questions, giving advice, expediting parts, and >finding sources in order to help me complete my panel. I am sure they >consumed many valuable hours out of their busy schedules to help. > >This is one top notch group of people. Stein (like a number of folks I know) operates under what I call the Olive Ann Beech philosophy of business: "Take care of the customer and the bottom line will take care of itself." Not only that, all the time you MIGHT have spent trying to craft, implement and track a "plan" is spent having fun solving problems and making things work. The best blood pressure medicine I know of . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:22 PM PST US From: "William Slaughter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Slaughter" Raymond, Have you considered buying the Aeroelectric Connection book? It's got lots of info right there for the reading. William Slaughter RV-8 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of raymondj Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:43 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "raymondj" --> Mr. Nuckolls, It is my opinion that your particular style of teaching is appropriate for students that are only marginally interested in the question and in seeking the solutions. I make the assumption that those who subscribe to the list and take the time to read and reply to the list have a high level of motivation. I would be served better by the presentation of as much of the available data as practical at the beginning of the solution process. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Cordially, Raymond Julian -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 9:08 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Relays 'G's" skunk stink (CORRECTION) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:51 PM 10/3/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "raymondj" > >Mr. Nuckolls, > > I am disappointed and saddened to see you engaging in the > "I've got a >secret" style of information dissemination. > > If it is in the archive, please say so. > > If you have the answer, please give it. I'm disappointed that you're disappointed. When was the last time you sat down in a class where the instructor walks in and says, "We have a test next Friday, the answers are on the board. Class dismissed." If there is no discussion, then there's no measure of the exchange and retention of ideas. My first teaching job was at Great Lakes Naval Training Base 40 years ago. Instructors I worked with habitually taught to the test questions. I refused to do it then and I'm not going to start now. Patience my friend. It's not my intent to be secretive or obtuse. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:20 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: I have a friend who needs help. (We'll call him "Sparky") "Sparky" was just about to leave the airport for the evening but had one last thing to do in the control tunnel in his F1 Rocket.. The BNC connector to the comm antenna was disconnected at the time and it accidently flopped down onto the master contactor and hit one of the two smaller poles resulting in a spark. (The large poles had rubber boots insulating them, but unfortunately no boots on the smaller poles) When "Sparky" went to turn on the master switch ( a Cessna style split master switch) the master contactor no longer functioned. "Sparky" left the airport in disgust so as not to be late for dinner, but now he needs to know how to proceed tomorrow with trouble shooting to get the master contactor to function again. Will "Sparky" need to replace the master contactor? Or, will he have to replace the Cessna style split master switch? Or, has the 22AWG wire between the contactor and master switch acted like a fuseable link and need to be replaced? How can I...I mean "Sparky," do some diagnostics before resorting to "swaptronics" of components??? HELP! Paul Siegel ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:52 PM 10/4/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >I have a friend who needs help. (We'll call him "Sparky") > >"Sparky" was just about to leave the airport for the evening but had one >last thing to do in the control tunnel in his F1 Rocket.. The BNC >connector to the comm antenna was disconnected at the time and it >accidently flopped down onto the master contactor and hit one of the two >smaller poles resulting in a spark. > >(The large poles had rubber boots insulating them, but unfortunately no >boots on the smaller poles) > >When "Sparky" went to turn on the master switch ( a Cessna style split >master switch) the master contactor no longer functioned. > >"Sparky" left the airport in disgust so as not to be late for dinner, but >now he needs to know how to proceed tomorrow with trouble shooting to get >the master contactor to function again. > >Will "Sparky" need to replace the master contactor? Or, will he have to >replace the Cessna style split master switch? Or, has the 22AWG wire >between the contactor and master switch acted like a fuseable link and >need to be replaced? > >How can I...I mean "Sparky," do some diagnostics before resorting to >"swaptronics" of components??? > >HELP! This is a job for Mr. Cliplead. He's been known to come in a variety of colors and lengths. I've got several dozen of his uncles and cousins hanging in my shop. If you have only one, recommend about three feet long and fitted with alligator clips (insulated if you want to get fancy). Start with using the cliplead to ground the master contactor terminal that goes off to the master switch. This should energize the master contactor with the usual "thunk". If so, then the problem lies with wiring and/or switch. If not, then a closer look at the contactor is in order. Is it a 3-terminal contactor? If so, then "tunkless" probably means contactor replacement. If a 4-terminal, check to see if the jumper between BAT terminal and the OTHER small terminal burned. Seems possible given the grounding nature of a free-lance coax connector. If the contactor "thunks", then check out wiring by applying Mr. Clippy between airfram ground and the contactor side of the battery master switch. "Thunk"? switch or ground wire on other side of switch is bad. No "thunk"? Wire between switch and contactor is open. Bob . . . >Paul Siegel > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:11 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pin extraction tool KMA 24 or PMA 7000 From: "N395V" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "N395V" Thanks bob do not archive -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=65882#65882 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:14 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Knurl driver.... X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" Does anyone have a source for a knurled nut (ring) driver as were used on older switches/breakers? Tessco (?) used to have one..these things are rare. Jim Baker 580.788.2779 Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:26 PM PST US From: "Chris Byrne" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" I am assembling my radio stack. The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle. Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass? I only have metal. Regards Chris ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:09 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws Chris Most Stainless Steel alloys are not magnetic either, so that could also be used. Take a magnet with you to the vendor. Check a sample of a SS screw to make sure it's not magnetic, before you buy it. I also used Stainless Steel nutplates on my panel for that reason. Charlie Kuss >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" > > >I am assembling my radio stack. >The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle. >Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass? >I only have metal. > > >Regards >Chris > > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:02 PM PST US From: "Franz Fux" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws H i Charlie, I was just going to contact you when I saw this e-mail. I send you a money order for the replacement o-rings for the brake system of my RV7 about 5 weeks ago but have not received the rings. I am wondering if you received the money. Please let me know Thanks Franz -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws Chris Most Stainless Steel alloys are not magnetic either, so that could also be used. Take a magnet with you to the vendor. Check a sample of a SS screw to make sure it's not magnetic, before you buy it. I also used Stainless Steel nutplates on my panel for that reason. Charlie Kuss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" I am assembling my radio stack. The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle. Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass? I only have metal. Regards Chris AeroElectric-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - http://wiki.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution