---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/07/06: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:42 AM - Re: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 2. 03:39 AM - Re: Stop the Nuckolls bashing (Rich Dodson) 3. 08:59 AM - new to this list (Michael T. Ice) 4. 10:43 AM - Re: new to this list (Terry Watson) 5. 11:03 AM - Re: new to this list (LarryMcFarland) 6. 12:51 PM - Re: new to this list (Frank Stringham) 7. 01:54 PM - Re: new to this list (Michael T. Ice) 8. 04:21 PM - Burned out switch (Vern Little) 9. 04:58 PM - Re: Burned out switch (A DeMarzo) 10. 05:57 PM - Re: new to this list (Dave N6030X) 11. 09:47 PM - Re: Burned out switch (Vern Little) 12. 10:26 PM - Re: new to this list (Michael T. Ice) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:28 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Master contactor doesn't work anymore? In a message dated 10/4/2006 10:48:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, psiegel@fuse.net writes: Will "Sparky" need to replace the master contactor? Or, will he have to replace the Cessna style split master switch? Or, has the 22AWG wire between the contactor and master switch acted like a fuseable link and need to be replaced? How can I...I mean "Sparky," do some diagnostics before resorting to "swaptronics" of components??? HELP! Paul Siegel ================================== Hi Paul: Tell Sparky I HATE 'swaptronics" even more than "swapmechanics". The first thing Sparky has to do is pull out the schematic for the bird. The second quick fix is to check ALL fuses and circuit breakers. Usually in the wiring of Master relays there is a fuse in the B+ control lead of the coil. Turning on is done by either completing the ground of the coil or the B+. >From your explanation it seems like the Ground is what is being used to complete the circuit and the Ground of the coax hit the B+ side of the relay ... Results POP of the 'hopefully' installed fuse. Use the schematic and trace the circuit to find the fuse. Or trace the wire from the relay. If you want to do a meter test, check resistance from each control stud (small terminals) to Ground. Also go back to the Master Switch and check for Voltage. Hope this helps, but! Tell Sparky to do this BEFORE he has any Beers. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:14 AM PST US From: Rich Dodson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stop the Nuckolls bashing Two semesters of EE as an undergrad.... Three quarters of Communications Engineering in grad school.... Still nothing beats: Bob's experience, wisdom, and his book with free updates! - Rich ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:13 AM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list Hello, I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know where to jump in or begin. I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a little vague) but not for electric installation. Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin? Mike Ice Anchorage, Alaska ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:34 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: new to this list Mike, Van's does sell a wiring harness for your RV-9. I bought one for my RV-8A but didn't use it because I had so many things I wanted to do another way. But, it did come with "put this here and use this wire to connect it to that" instructions. You might want to get just the instructions for the wiring kit for the RV-9 to review. Terry RV-8A finishing Seattle _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael T. Ice Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:58 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list Hello, I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know where to jump in or begin. I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a little vague) but not for electric installation. Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin? Mike Ice Anchorage, Alaska ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:44 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland Hi Michael, The book you ordered is the cookbook and place to begin. Once through it, you'll feel a lot more confident about the approach. In the order of things, you need to decide how you want to place your buses, main lines, ground cable and contact relays. The rest is sizing and finding the best methods for placing your wiring, plug disconnects and putting wiring in for your selected electronics and avionics. This is a good site to post a question, but discussions get well past the minutiae and it's hard to gage the relevant nature of some of the issues. You will find the book is a centerline and very good reference from which to make all those decisions. Don't worry about the vast unknown, cause most of what you need is in the book or can be best answered here by Bob Nuckolls. Welcome, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive Michael T. Ice wrote: > *Hello,* > ** > *I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am > about to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find > myself overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just > don't know where to jump in or begin.* > ** > *I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. * > ** > *Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear > instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were > a little vague) but not for electric installation. * > ** > *Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin?* > ** > *Mike Ice* > *Anchorage, Alaska* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:45 PM PST US From: "Frank Stringham" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: new to this list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" Mike You have the cook book on order...Aeroelectric.... I am there now and am in the learning process. First determine aircraft mission. Determine budget. Design electrical system to meet aircraft mission and budget. ASK QUESTIONS after your own research. Check out others electrical plan. Submit your plan to others for suggestions. Order supplies. Ask questions through the whole process. Don't get side tracked by the intellectual joustings. Follow Bob's advice and you will not go wrong. Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring and other stufffffff....RV7A >From: "Michael T. Ice" >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list >Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:57:36 -0800 > >Hello, > >I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about >to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself >overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know >where to jump in or begin. > >I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. > >Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear >instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a >little vague) but not for electric installation. > >Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin? > >Mike Ice >Anchorage, Alaska ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:03 PM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael T. Ice" Frank and others, Thanks for the prompt replies and advice. I will take it to heart and do as you suggest. Don't worry about me getting caught up in the intellectual jousting, I am way to busy. Scottish Proverb: Be happy while you're living, for you're a long time dead. Mike Ice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Stringham" Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:50 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: new to this list > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" > > > Mike > > You have the cook book on order...Aeroelectric.... > > I am there now and am in the learning process. First determine aircraft > mission. Determine budget. Design electrical system to meet aircraft > mission and budget. ASK QUESTIONS after your own research. Check out > others electrical plan. Submit your plan to others for suggestions. Order > supplies. Ask questions through the whole process. Don't get side tracked > by the intellectual joustings. Follow Bob's advice and you will not go > wrong. > > Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring and other stufffffff....RV7A > > >>From: "Michael T. Ice" >>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: new to this list >>Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:57:36 -0800 >> >>Hello, >> >>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about >>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself >>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know >>where to jump in or begin. >> >>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. >> >>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear >>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a >>little vague) but not for electric installation. >> >>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin? >> >>Mike Ice >>Anchorage, Alaska > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:35 PM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: AeroElectric-List: Burned out switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little I just experience my second switch failure in 100 hours. The first time is was the master switch (loose switch terminals), this time it was my Strobe power supply switch. Symptoms: tripping breaker at shut down, and burned fast-on terminal insulation at the switch. An inspection of the switch showed that the terminals were loose and discolored, indicating high internal temperatures. Bench testing with a constant current power supply indicated flaky terminals and overheating. I would expect the Strobe switch would be more susceptible to failure due to the constant power characteristics of the strobe power supply. As switch resistance increases, the current in the circuit would tend to increase as the strobe power supply tries to keep putting out the same power. This would quickly lead to thermal runaway in the switch. For example, if the switch resistance was high enough to cause a 4 volt drop across the switch, the strobe current would rise from 7 amps (nominal) to more than 10 amps, tripping my breaker. The switch would also overheat. This would also tend to cause a breaker trip at shut-down, because the voltage would drop from 14 to 12 as the engine stopped, increasing the strobe power supply draw. So... lesson learned. It also confirmed my suspicions that the breaker was tripping for a reason! Vern Little ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:14 PM PST US From: "A DeMarzo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Burned out switch Very interesting! What can you tell us about the quality of the switches? I would think the opposite, with the master having more duty. At least the strobes have a bit of time to cool so maybe less of a load! On 10/07/2006 6:16:48 PM, Vern Little (rv-9a-online@telus.net) wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little net> > > I just experience my second switch failure in 100 hours. The first time > is was the master switch (loose switch terminals), this time it was my > Strobe power supply switch. > > Symptoms: tripping breaker at shut down, and burned fast-on terminal > insulation at the switch. > > An inspection of the switch showed that the terminals were loose and > discolored, indicating high internal temperatures. > > Bench testing with a constant current power supply indicated flaky > terminals and overheating. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:59 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X One thing you can start doing before you even get "The Book" is to start making a list of all your electrically operated equipment. Everything from strobe lights to fuel pumps to electronic ignition systems, clocks, radios, etc. Get the manufacturer's specs on each one and write down the "Current" requirements for each. These will be stated in milliamps or Amps. For radios, it may give one current requirement for receiving and a different one for transmitting. Note that this is NOT the "fuse size" or "breaker size" given. If they only give you the electrical requirements in Watts, remember you can convert Amps = Watts / Voltage. Then sort your list by a) things you MUST have on all the time in order to stay aloft b) things you are required by FAR to have turned on at night-time c) intermittent loads, such as strobe light maximums, radio transmitter maximums, fuel pumps that run for a short time and then turn off, etc. etc. d) unusual loads that you may only require once in a blue moon, such as landing lights, pitot heat, etc. d) things that are luxury items, such as iPods, 2nd radios, This will help you start understanding how you might want to divide up the equipment onto the various buses you will be creating. It will also help you start understanding the maximum size alternator and battery you will need, what size wire to expect, fuse sizes, etc. etc. The book will make this all clearer, but this will give you something to start working on before the book arrives. Dave Morris At 10:57 AM 10/7/2006, you wrote: >Hello, > >I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am >about to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find >myself overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I >just don't know where to jump in or begin. > >I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. > >Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty >clear instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and >drawings were a little vague) but not for electric installation. > >Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin? > >Mike Ice >Anchorage, Alaska ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:25 PM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Burned out switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little They are Carling switches with the riveted fast-on terminals. My master switch was defective from first flight, but not 'burned out'-just loose rivets leading to fluctuating field current in the alternator. The load on the master switch is only about 3 amps maximum. The strobe has about a constant 7 amp load (nominal). If the voltage drop, this current increases, as I mentioned... thus overloading the switch and circuit breaker. Strangely, the Master switch driving the alternator field has the same characteristics (a drop in bus voltage increases the current through the switch). I have a third switch that is suspicious as well... but I haven't determined if it's the fault of my flap motor. I've contacted the supplier (B&C). They replaced my Master switch, but I haven't heard back yet on the other one. I'm not worried about a replacement... I was concerned that they had a bad batch of switches. Vern A DeMarzo wrote: > Very interesting! What can you tell us about the quality of the > switches? I would think the opposite, with the master having more > duty. At least the strobes have a bit of time to cool so maybe less of > a load! > > > On 10/07/2006 6:16:48 PM, Vern Little (rv-9a-online@telus.net > ) wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Vern Little > . > > net> > > > > I just experience my second switch failure in 100 hours. The first time > > is was the master switch (loose switch terminals), this time it was my > > Strobe power supply switch. > > > > Symptoms: tripping breaker at shut down, and burned fast-on terminal > > insulation at the switch. > > > > An inspection of the switch showed that the terminals were loose and > > discolored, indicating high internal temperatures. > > > > Bench testing with a constant current power supply indicated flaky > > terminals and overheating. > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:39 PM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Michael T. Ice" Dave, Thanks for the great ideas. I have begun to make lists and your right it gives me something to do which is a big help. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave N6030X" Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this list > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X > > > One thing you can start doing before you even get "The Book" is to start > making a list of all your electrically operated equipment. Everything > from strobe lights to fuel pumps to electronic ignition systems, clocks, > radios, etc. > > Get the manufacturer's specs on each one and write down the "Current" > requirements for each. These will be stated in milliamps or Amps. For > radios, it may give one current requirement for receiving and a different > one for transmitting. Note that this is NOT the "fuse size" or "breaker > size" given. If they only give you the electrical requirements in Watts, > remember you can convert Amps = Watts / Voltage. > > Then sort your list by > a) things you MUST have on all the time in order to stay aloft > b) things you are required by FAR to have turned on at night-time > c) intermittent loads, such as strobe light maximums, radio transmitter > maximums, fuel pumps that run for a short time and then turn off, etc. > etc. > d) unusual loads that you may only require once in a blue moon, such as > landing lights, pitot heat, etc. > d) things that are luxury items, such as iPods, 2nd radios, > > This will help you start understanding how you might want to divide up the > equipment onto the various buses you will be creating. It will also help > you start understanding the maximum size alternator and battery you will > need, what size wire to expect, fuse sizes, etc. etc. > > The book will make this all clearer, but this will give you something to > start working on before the book arrives. > > Dave Morris > > > At 10:57 AM 10/7/2006, you wrote: >>Hello, >> >>I have just completed the fuselage on the RV-9 I am building and am about >>to begin the process of putting in all things electric. I find myself >>overwhelmed with the vast unknown pool of knowledge and I just don't know >>where to jump in or begin. >> >>I have the Aeroelectric book on order. I have talked with Bob. >> >>Up until this point in the building process I have found pretty clear >>instructions for each step (ok, sometimes the plans and drawings were a >>little vague) but not for electric installation. >> >>Is there a "cook book" to use to at least have a place to begin? >> >>Mike Ice >>Anchorage, Alaska > > >