---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/10/06: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:12 AM - Re: ELT/CHT cable extension (Harley) 2. 07:15 AM - Re: new to this listnew to this list (Valovich, Paul) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: Radio Rack Screws (Charlie Kuss) 4. 08:55 AM - Re: Radio Rack Screws (John Swartout) 5. 10:10 AM - Re: Thinking things electic (Speedy11@aol.com) 6. 10:33 AM - Re: Radio Rack Screws () 7. 10:58 AM - Data point (Speedy11@aol.com) 8. 03:37 PM - Re: Data point (William Gill) 9. 05:17 PM - Re: new to this listnew to this list (William Slaughter) 10. 09:29 PM - Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) (PIAVIS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:59 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ELT/CHT cable extension And, Bob...remember that the connecting wire itself is part of the thermocouple can affect the reading if not matched, connected or handled correctly. If you want to do it the way the professionals do (or did, in my case...retired )connecting the wires mechanically with connectors whose metal parts also match the wire type is preferable. Soldering them may cause a degradation in the accuracy, especially if the joint is in a location where the temperature may be different. Read everything you ever wanted to know (and a lot you don't care about) thermocouples here: www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z021-032.pdf Omega also has the connectors you want. Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ David M. wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." > > Get the same exact type of cables you have on each sensor now. IIRC, > the minimum add-on is 12 inches but I don't remember why. > > Aircraft Spruce has some at pretty good prices. You could get a 6 > footer and cut it down to what you need. > > David M. > > > glennpaulwilkinson wrote: > >> Bob, >> what is the best method to extend the EGT/CHT cables? >> I'm doing a panel upgrade and need to add about 6" to each. >> >> Glenn654 >> N654RV >> RV-4 @ OKZ >> <<>> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this listnew to this list From: "Valovich, Paul" I'm at a similar stage of construction of my -8A QB. I started with Bob's book, then the EAA library, then the B&C, SteinAir and other catalogs (in many cases there are explanations for using an offered product). I also attended Bob's seminar in Auburn, CA. One thing has helped me: first develop a very detailed understanding of the basics - crimping, wire selection, grounding, bus design, contactor operation, etc. I agonized over the avionics suite but finally decided on the AFP 3500, Garmin 396/496, SL30, ICOM Comm2, PS Enginering Audio Panel, GTX 327, and TruTrak ADI Pilot. I also decided to use a taxi light but no landing light, a heated pitot, Van's strobes and position lights, and fuzes instead of circuit breakers. Also decided on a fuel injected engine. With all these goodies in mind, I then made preliminary architecture choices (Bob's Z-13 with two alternators and one battery; exact products still TBD), decided on fast tabs wherever possible, did an initial bus distribution design (batt, main and endurance), decided on a common firewall ground bus, will use conduit for the fuselage wire runs, used EPanel Builder to see if it all fits (along with standard altimeter, VSI and AS backup gauges) then thought about specific switches and warning lights. Finally, carefully analyzed where it'll all go (several iterations). Just starting the detailed wiring selection and design. Nothing installed yet, but I'm confident that a one-wire-at-a-time attitude will provide a doable solution. Paul Valovich Ridgecrest, CA ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:57 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws John I'm simply trying to eliminate as much steel and iron from the instrument panel. I'm using a panel mounted whiskey compass. Stainless steel, brass and aluminum do not affect the compass. Charlie Kuss >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" > > >What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or >nutplates are ferrous metal or not? > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris >Byrne >Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" > > >I am assembling my radio stack. >The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle. >Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass? >I only have metal. > > >Regards >Chris > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:49 AM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws Okay-I see. At least the screws and nutplates don't move. I think my magnetic compass can be compensated. Seems like even that big hunk of iron just behind the propeller would have some effect on the compass. I guess if it turns out to be a problem, I'll be going back to this thread to look for those SS parts. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws John I'm simply trying to eliminate as much steel and iron from the instrument panel. I'm using a panel mounted whiskey compass. Stainless steel, brass and aluminum do not affect the compass. Charlie Kuss --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or nutplates are ferrous metal or not? -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [ mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Byrne Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" I am assembling my radio stack. The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle. Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass? I only have metal. Regards Chris AeroElectric-List Email Forum - http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - http://forums.matronics.com - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - http://wiki.matronics.com - List Contribution Web Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:31 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Thinking things electic I'm not sure if Dr. Dunham intended eclectic or electric in the subject line, but both would have been appropriate. I still am not convinced that we must all be so trained on electrics as to be able to derive all electrical answers from our base knowledge. Sometimes we don't need the huge foundation of knowledge. To use Dr. Dunham's example, my grandmother knew how to treat a sore throat (she completed the fourth grade), yet she had virtually no knowledge of medical techniques. I'm not trying to put down Dr. Dunham, I'm just saying we don't always need to know everything in order to accomplish a relatively simple task. But, occasionally, we need confirmation from someone who has that knowledge. We need someone who will look at our electrical plans, and instead of saying study Z-99 and come back tomorrow, give us advice on how to best implement OUR desired plan. After I do a load plan and draw my schematics I need someone trained (large knowledge base) in electrics to analyze my concept and help me find errors. I am willing to pay for such advice and I suspect others are willing to do the same. In many cases, builders don't have the time or desire to learn it all. STILL, Dr. Dunham makes me think. His is the best argument I've seen on this forum in favor of indepth learning as opposed to adequate knowledge. I commend you for your thoughts. I think I'll rethink my own thoughts and try to implement some of your thoughts. How's that for eclectic? But, I am serious when I say that. I will strive to think more instead of depending on others to do my electrical thinking. Until I reach that level of learning (I may never reach it), any electrical experts out there willing to help me analyze my electrical? I'll pay a 3 month electrical advice retainer such that I can call and send emails for advice. Bob? Stan Sutterfield 5% of the people think. 10% of the people think they think. and 85% of the people would rather DIE than think. When I graduated from medical school my head was crammed full of "answers". I could spout facts like nobody's business. Then I met the public and realized I didn't know how to "doctor" people. In other words, I didn't know how to think like a doctor! This revelation came early in my career in a busy ER in Knoxville, Tennessee. I had a patient with a sore throat and I didn't know how to treat it, or even where to go to find out. Shocking, isn't it? I was already an MD. In fact, I already knew how to treat heart attack, stroke and many serious and life threatening conditions. But I didn't know how to evaluate that sore throat! I was taken aback, as you might guess. Fortunately, I had a teacher supervising me who was ready to fill the gaps in my knowledge. And, even more fortunately, I learned from him how to evaluate patients, or more correctly, their problems. At first, I was miffed at him because when I asked him how to treat this patient, he handed me an article to read! I was busy! The ER was jumping and this "minor" problem was bogging me down. But, since I wasn't the only MD on duty, and I was in training after all, I sat down and quickly read the article. After I was done, I knew what to do. But, most curious of all, I had been exposed to the thought processes of the author and it transformed my thinking! I have continually worked to hone my skills as a medical thinker for the past 25 years. But that teacher was the beginning of my real medical education. Likewise, Bob Nuckolls has been the beginning of my electrical education. He makes it fun and rewarding. I like it so much I've read the 'Connection at least a half dozen times. I read this list every day. I've come to LIKE wiring airplanes! When I tell my OBAM airplane buddies, they just shake their heads in disbelief. One even asked if I would wire his! :o) You see, they're in the 3rd group. At least concerning electrons. They don't want to have to think about wiring their sky charriots. They just want to fly them! And, who's to blame them for that? That's why most of us build the dern things, isn't it? They are content to wire theirs according to the suggested diagrams supplied with the kit. Why not? It works, doesn't it? But we AeroElectric listers are the chosen few. Either by education or avocation we find ourselves thinking things electric. Sure, we want answers, but, even better, we want our fancies tickled! That's what Bob is doing here. We like it! We'll have the "answer" soon enough. But I'd like to know if my manner of thinking works! After all, I may be up there screaming along in my Sky Scorcher someday when things go awry and I'm gonna be all I've got to get things managable! I want the confidence to get that done. And Bob's method of teaching fills that need for me. At least concerning things electric. Rodney in Tennessee ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:33 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John The biggest issue is distance from the compass. Magnetic steels and iron parts are not normally used in the instrument panel. Look at the radio rack trays used. They are all either aluminum or stainless steel for this reason. Charlie Kuss ---- John Swartout wrote: > Okay-I see. At least the screws and nutplates don't move. I think my > magnetic compass can be compensated. Seems like even that big hunk of iron > just behind the propeller would have some effect on the compass. I guess if > it turns out to be a problem, I'll be going back to this thread to look for > those SS parts. > > > > John > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie > Kuss > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 10:19 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws > > > > John > I'm simply trying to eliminate as much steel and iron from the instrument > panel. I'm using a panel mounted whiskey compass. Stainless steel, brass and > aluminum do not affect the compass. > Charlie Kuss > > > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" > > > What am I missing? What difference does it make whether the screws or > nutplates are ferrous metal or not? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [ > mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris > Byrne > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:31 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Rack Screws > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" > > > I am assembling my radio stack. > The supports to holding the radio trays together are AL angle. > Do the screws holding the whole assy together have to be brass? > I only have metal. > > > Regards > Chris > > > > > > > AeroElectric-List Email Forum - > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > http://forums.matronics.com > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > http://wiki.matronics.com > - List Contribution Web Site - > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:00 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Data point I'd like to agree with Milt. I've had nothing but excellent service and response from Steinair. I'm not advertising for them and I'm not associated with them in any way. But, as a builder, I appreciate other builders passing along to me which companies have provided top notch performance. Steinair is one of them. Stan Sutterfield _www.rv-8a.net_ (http://www.rv-8a.net) Do not archive I'd like to take this opportunity to put in a plug for Steinair. Throughout my project he and all of his employees have been immensly helpful in answering questions, giving advice, expediting parts, and finding sources in order to help me complete my panel. I am sure they consumed many valuable hours out of their busy schedules to help. This is one top notch group of people. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:45 PM PST US From: "William Gill" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Data point Ditto. Stein often responds to list questions after hours and on weekends -- always excellent service. Bill Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Data point I'd like to agree with Milt. I've had nothing but excellent service and response from Steinair. I'm not advertising for them and I'm not associated with them in any way. But, as a builder, I appreciate other builders passing along to me which companies have provided top notch performance. Steinair is one of them. Stan Sutterfield www.rv-8a.net Do not archive I'd like to take this opportunity to put in a plug for Steinair. Throughout my project he and all of his employees have been immensly helpful in answering questions, giving advice, expediting parts, and finding sources in order to help me complete my panel. I am sure they consumed many valuable hours out of their busy schedules to help. This is one top notch group of people. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:06 PM PST US From: "William Slaughter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: new to this listnew to this list Paul, One tip here. I use EPanel Builder for conceptual layouts and like it a lot, but it is very easy to create combinations that will not fit on the panel in real life. I have an actual CAD drawing for the final fitting. If you don't have a CAD program available, measure your combination on the instrument panel blank before getting totally invested in a particular design layout. Happy wiring! William Slaughter RV-8 Wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:14 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: new to this listnew to this list I'm at a similar stage of construction of my -8A QB. I started with Bob's book, then the EAA library, then the B&C, SteinAir and other catalogs (in many cases there are explanations for using an offered product). I also attended Bob's seminar in Auburn, CA. One thing has helped me: first develop a very detailed understanding of the basics - crimping, wire selection, grounding, bus design, contactor operation, etc. I agonized over the avionics suite but finally decided on the AFP 3500, Garmin 396/496, SL30, ICOM Comm2, PS Enginering Audio Panel, GTX 327, and TruTrak ADI Pilot. I also decided to use a taxi light but no landing light, a heated pitot, Van's strobes and position lights, and fuzes instead of circuit breakers. Also decided on a fuel injected engine. With all these goodies in mind, I then made preliminary architecture choices (Bob's Z-13 with two alternators and one battery; exact products still TBD), decided on fast tabs wherever possible, did an initial bus distribution design (batt, main and endurance), decided on a common firewall ground bus, will use conduit for the fuselage wire runs, used EPanel Builder to see if it all fits (along with standard altimeter, VSI and AS backup gauges) then thought about specific switches and warning lights. Finally, carefully analyzed where it'll all go (several iterations). Just starting the detailed wiring selection and design. Nothing installed yet, but I'm confident that a one-wire-at-a-time attitude will provide a doable solution. Paul Valovich Ridgecrest, CA ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:43 PM PST US From: "PIAVIS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) I'm approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this board but forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions. I'm starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an RV-7, IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327), P800B audio panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP. I've done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do have a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against Normal Ops, Main Alt Fail, and Battery only): Main Buss: Total 26.5A Alt Field Lights - Taxi Lights - Nav Lights - Strobe Pitot Heat Flap Motor Auto Pilot - Pitch Auto Pilot - Roll Auto Pilot - Control Head E-Buss: 6.4A Alt Field EFIS 2 HIS Magnatometer/ AHRS Trim - Roll Trim - Pitch Turn Coordinator GNS-480 (Nav) GNS-480 (General) GNS-480 (Com) GTX-327 (Xpondr) Battery: Average 4A EFIS 1 ADI Fuel Pump Starter EDI 4000 (Eng Monitor) GMA-340 (Audio) SL-30 (Nav) SL-30 (Com-Rec) SL-30 (Com-Tx) EI #1 (P-Mag) EI #2 (P-Mag) Lights - Lnd "Lights - Flood/Cargo -.1 Cargo - .1 Panel- .5A Cockpit - .2" Main Battery Contactor Starter Contactor Clock The list for the Battery buss seems extensive but my thoughts were that if stuck on top IFR, these items are potentially needed. Yes, that assumes both main and SD-8 alternator went south. The question is, using an SD-8, can run over 8A on the buss? Is this a valid distribution of components? Some of these on the Batt buss are also used for start (EIS) or ground ops (lights, clock). The other question is can I split the power leads on the SL-30 without making the radio inop for receive- only?