---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/12/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:51 AM - Two shunts on one amperometer (Gianni Zuliani) 2. 01:58 AM - Re: Magneto Switches and Wiring (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 3. 04:29 AM - Re: Two shunts on one amperometer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 04:42 AM - Re: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:14 AM - Re: Smart Glow Fuses (Ken) 6. 05:14 AM - Re: Two shunts on one amperometer (Ken) 7. 09:06 AM - Anti-rotation washer (Ernest Christley) 8. 09:13 AM - SD-8 Self-Excitation Option (John Swartout) 9. 09:13 AM - SD-8 Self-Excitation Option (John Swartout) 10. 11:31 AM - Re: Anti-rotation washer (Matt Prather) 11. 11:52 AM - Re: Anti-rotation washer (George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI) 12. 12:04 PM - Re: Smart Glow Fuses (D Wysong) 13. 12:49 PM - S700 2-10 Switches (Chris Byrne) 14. 01:00 PM - Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 01:52 PM - Re: S700 2-10 Switches (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 03:07 PM - Re: S700 2-10 Switches (Chris Byrne) 17. 04:39 PM - Re: S700 2-10 Switches (Alan K. Adamson) 18. 05:33 PM - Re: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option (John Swartout) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:31 AM PST US From: "Gianni Zuliani" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Two shunts on one amperometer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" Hi all, As I'm not decided where is the best place to connect the shunt of my amperometer, I was considering to use two shunts: one on the alternator output and the other checking all the electrical loads (except starter). The two shunts would go to the gauge through a a S700-2-3 ON-ON double pole switch. The advantage would be to be able to check alt output and, in case of alt failure, check the battery depletion rate. Any comment or criticism from the experts? Gianni Zuliani Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850 Mobile +41 79 3373439 Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:58:14 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto Switches and Wiring In a message dated 9/14/2006 6:14:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, SMITHBKN@aol.com writes: Listers, I've read Bob's book and searched the archives but still can't seem to find answers to confirm that my desired approach on magneto and starter wiring will work (or maybe there is a simpler way). I have two traditional magnetos for an IO-360. I would like to have a toggle switch for each mag, and a momentary toggle for the starter (with a toggle guard for added protection of inadvertent activation). I don't fully understand the "impulse" aspect of the magneto. Could someone help explain such and outline the correct wiring for this setup? Thanks, Jeff ================================== Jeff: Did you get a useful answer as yet? The idea of dual toggle switches (SPST) is PERFECTLY acceptable. The switch should be a good quality and physically robust just for S&G's I used a 15 Amp switch ... ONLY because of the solid feel the switch had in opening and closing and that it would function well with gloves on. Impulse coupling - In this regard there is a lot to say and understand - but, here is the short and simple response: 1 - If you have dual Mags usually in 99.9% of the cases the LEFT Mag is the impulse Mag. 2 - For a few extra bucks you can make BOTH mags impulse mags. It will require: Impulse Mag Impulse Mag drive gear Longer mounting studs (2) Adapter ring Ring gasket Seat gasket The advantage of dual impulse mags is more spark to start the engine and much less chance not being able to start when the pawl fails... Double your chances of starting. 3 - The Normal spinning of the prop is NOT fast enough to induce an electrical current into the Mag coil to produce a spark. 4 - The Normal timing of a Mag is 25 DBTDC and that is not at a proper point for the spark to fire and START the engine. 5 - The impulse Mag has a Pin and a Pawl. The Pawl catches on the pin (at LOW RPM's) and cocks back a spring. When the pawl is released two things happen: a> The Spring SNAPS the Mag's spinning Magnet at a much higher speed which induced a voltage into the Mag coil. More speed equals more spark. b> The delayed action of the snap also occurs at TDC which is a better timing location for the starting of the engine. 6 - Once the engine has started the centrifugal force of the higher spinning RPM throws the pawl to the outside and away from the pin so this disarm the impulse portion of the impulse Mag. I have dual impulse mags on my O-320. Only because I was stranded for 3 hours when the impulse Mag failed. OK, wiring ... Simple ... Mag Wiring - ON is OFF and OFF is ON. When the Mag switch is DOWN - ON ... YES ... ON. You are GROUNDING the 'P' Lead of the Mag and this sends the spark created by the Mag to ground and away from the spark plugs. When the Mag switch is UP - OFF ... YES ... OFF. The Ground is removed from the 'P' Lead and the Mag is HOT and ready to send a spark to the spark plugs. When you say "Toggle Guard" I guess you are referring to that fancy RED Plastic cover over the Starter Switch? Sure that is a good idea. BUT DON'T put them on the MAG switches ... Only on the Starter Switch. Hope this helped? Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:29:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two shunts on one amperometer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:44 AM 10/12/2006 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" > >Hi all, > >As I'm not decided where is the best place to connect the shunt of my >amperometer, I was considering to use two shunts: one on the >alternator output and the other checking all the electrical loads >(except starter). >The two shunts would go to the gauge through a a S700-2-3 ON-ON double pole >switch. >The advantage would be to be able to check alt output and, in case of alt >failure, check the battery depletion rate. >Any comment or criticism from the experts? Measuring the battery depletion rate for alternator-out operations by installing n ammeter suggests that you're not planning to control battery life by a combination of (1) choosing a battery capacity sufficient to operate KNOWN loads for what ever duration you choose as part of your design for alternator-out operations (Plan-B). (2) maintaining the battery with either periodic capacity tests or preventative maintenance by replacement so that conditions under Plan-B are satisfied. The point is that KNOWING battery loads "right now" is useless if you don't know what the battery's capacity is. Further, planning to do any kind of mathematical gymnastics in flight so as to pick-and-choose from electrical items you're not going to turn off is poor design . . . it distracts from your duties as pilot while you fuss with systems analysis under duress while in flight. The most useful instrument under battery-only operations is the voltmeter, not the ammeter . . . and then only to tell you whether your planning and maintenance efforts have paid off. If the battery drops below 11.0 volts sooner than you've predicted, then you know you've blown the design goal for achieving and maintaining a PREDICABLE level of performance under battery-only operations. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:27 PM 10/10/2006 -0700, you wrote: >I m approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this board but >forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions. > > >I m starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an RV-7, >IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327), P800B audio >panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP. > > >I ve done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do have >a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against Normal Ops, >Main Alt Fail, and Battery only): > > >Main Buss: Total 26.5A > >Alt Field >Lights - Taxi >Lights - Nav >Lights - Strobe >Pitot Heat >Flap Motor >Auto Pilot - Pitch >Auto Pilot - Roll >Auto Pilot - Control Head > > >E-Buss: 6.4A > >Alt Field >EFIS 2 HIS >Magnatometer/ AHRS >Trim - Roll >Trim - Pitch >Turn Coordinator >GNS-480 (Nav) >GNS-480 (General) >GNS-480 (Com) >GTX-327 (Xpondr) >Battery: Average 4A >EFIS 1 ADI >Fuel Pump >Starter >EDI 4000 (Eng Monitor) >GMA-340 (Audio) >SL-30 (Nav) >SL-30 (Com-Rec) >SL-30 (Com-Tx) >EI #1 (P-Mag) >EI #2 (P-Mag) >Lights - Lnd >"Lights - Flood/Cargo -.1 > Cargo - .1 > Panel- .5A > Cockpit - .2" >Main Battery Contactor >Starter Contactor >Clock It's not clear from your narration that you've categorized this list of loads for modes of operation. Not all loads are on for all modes of operation. The battery bus has things on it that are (1) not necessary for keeping an engine running or (2) need to be operable on the ground with the rest of the airplane powered down. Suggest you use this form as a guide: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf prepare one page for each of the three busses. Decide which load item will feed from which bus, what CONTINUOUS loads they present to the bus and under what conditions those loads would be present. > > >The list for the Battery buss seems extensive but my thoughts were that if >stuck on top IFR, these items are potentially needed. Yes, that assumes >both main and SD-8 alternator went south. The question is, using an SD-8, >can run over 8A on the buss? Is this a valid distribution of components? >Some of these on the Batt buss are also used for start (EIS) or ground ops >(lights, clock). The other question is can I split the power leads on the >SL-30 without making the radio inop for receive- only? Don't understand the "receive only" mode . . . if you don't punch the mic button, then you're in a receive only mode no matter how power is wired to the transceiver. All SL-30 loads would be supplied by the e-bus which needs to be pre-flighted anyhow by closing the e-bus alternate feed switch before closing the master contactor. Get your ATIS and Clearance before bringing the main bus up and starting the engine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:43 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Smart Glow Fuses --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken The last time these things were discussed someone mentioned that they don't provide much advantage. You are most likely to be looking at the fuse block if you already know that something isn't working and hopefully your fuses are labelled. Also since they do pass a small amount of current they can make for some strange voltage readings if you do any testing while they are illuminated. Ken L. Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > Thanks to all for the replys on the Smart fuses- will digest and > conclude... > > Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:44 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two shunts on one amperometer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Seems like extra work and expense for little gain Gianni. With a shunt on the alternator you can quickly become familiar with the current draw of various items. After an alternator failure it is very unlikely that you can manage the current draw for any specific battery life unless you have a brand new, tested, fully charged battery at room temperature, and have a second pilot to fly the plane while you fiddle with it. Just turn everything off that is not needed and revert to a previous plan that probably entails use of an E-bus. Ken L. Gianni Zuliani wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gianni Zuliani" > >Hi all, > >As I'm not decided where is the best place to connect the shunt of my >amperometer, I was considering to use two shunts: one on the >alternator output and the other checking all the electrical loads >(except starter). >The two shunts would go to the gauge through a a S700-2-3 ON-ON double pole >switch. >The advantage would be to be able to check alt output and, in case of alt >failure, check the battery depletion rate. >Any comment or criticism from the experts? > >Gianni Zuliani >Tel/Fax +41 91 9710850 >Mobile +41 79 3373439 >Long-Ez >> Stag-Ez >> Stag-EzR >http://www.comgz.com/tristar.htm > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:22 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anti-rotation washer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the toggle switches I bought had them. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:18 AM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option I can't find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that with the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on all the time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not sufficient to determine this for myself) it seems that, while innovative, this is not really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to always be on, the same battery that starts your engine could excite the SD-8 at the start of each flight. The only way self-excitation would be useful would be if you were out in the bush with a dead battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine. First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on? Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the engine is turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always on-line? Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:18 AM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option I can't find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that with the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on all the time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not sufficient to determine this for myself) it seems that, while innovative, this is not really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to always be on, the same battery that starts your engine could excite the SD-8 at the start of each flight. The only way self-excitation would be useful would be if you were out in the bush with a dead battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine. First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on? Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the engine is turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always on-line? Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed? ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:40 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Anti-rotation washer From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" B and C sells them.. Go here: http://www.bandc.biz/parts.html And enter "washer" into the search window. The first hit is the one I think you need.. Not sure if the diameter of the switches are all the same, however. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley > > > What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the > toggle switches I bought had them. > > -- > ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | > ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | > o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:47 AM PST US From: "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Anti-rotation washer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI" Ernest - I have bought those washers from both SteinAir and B&C. neal What is a good source for tabbed anti-rotation washers? None of the toggle switches I bought had them. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:34 PM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Smart Glow Fuses --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong Hello Mark - We're using the "glow" fuses with the black Bussmann blocks. They fit just like the standard ATC/ATO fuses. The only difference is that they stick up a bit higher because of the little "light" on top. Waytek Inc. (www.waytekwire.com) is a good supplier for them, too. They also have breakers that fit into the ATC/ATO slots. Has anyone tried these? D > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ > > > Time: 11:32:52 AM PST US > From: Fiveonepw@aol.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Smart Glow Fuses > > Anyone using or know if these Smart Glow Fuses are useful, and whether they > will fit the fuseblocks B&C/Steinair sell? (They appear to be ATC/ATO type but > > not too clear from website) Googling didn't find much info... > > http://www.bavauto.com/lview.asp?imgfile=assets/imglib500/smartglowfuse.jpg > > Available from http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp > > TIA - Mark do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:37 PM PST US From: "Chris Byrne" Subject: AeroElectric-List: S700 2-10 Switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" I am using Z13/8 for wiring my Cozy. At this stage I am installing one PMAG and one impulse Slick. As I intend to eventually run two PMAG's I am installing two S700 2-10 switches. After repeated efforts I still do not understand the connection on these switches at all. The question is, how do I wire the Slick to the 2-10 switch. I need to know which tabs the shield and core attach to. Thanks Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:12 PM 10/12/2006 -0400, you wrote: >I can t find the message now, but I believe I recall Bob saying that with >the SD-8 self-excitation circuitry (Z-25), the SD 8 would be on all the >time. If this is true (my knowledge of electronics is not sufficient to >determine this for myself) it seems that, while innovative, this is not >really useful. If one wants the SD-8 to always be on, the same battery >that starts your engine could excite the SD-8 at the start of each >flight. The only way self-excitation would be useful would be if you were >out in the bush with a dead battery and had to hand-prop to start the engine. Yup, you got it. Generators of yore carried sufficient residual field magnetism to come on line without benefit of external power sources. Generators that have stood idle for a long time may loose this residual and require recharging of the field poles with a technique called "flashing". Alternators were seldom if ever designed to support any residual in the field so the vast majority of alternators in service require external startup energy to come alive. This can be an exceedingly small voltage . . . say between 0.2 and 1.0 volts of field voltage. However, given the very high speeds for rotating a typical alternator on Lycoming engines, some folks have reported that their modern alternators will come alive without benefit of external voltage applied. >First, is it correct that with Z-25 the SD-8 would always be on? The SD-8 is a PERMANENT MAGNET alternator . . . if it's spinning, it's producing voltage. So in this sense, it's always ON and there's nothing you can do to change that. Many SD-8 users have noted, however, that the REGULATOR supplied with the SD-8 will not come alive solely on voltage supplied from the alternator side of the system. Again, an exceedingly small voltage on the system side of the regulator (about .6 volts) to forward bias one of the critical solid state devices in the regulator would kick-start the regulator. The notion of being "always ON" or "ON-OFF under panel control" does not have the same meaning for the SD-8 system as for it's bigger generator/alternator cousins. However, given the special duty assigned to the SD-8 in a Z-13 installation, it's not an unreasonable design goal to have the system become useful whether or not there is a battery present. Earlier discussions about the quality of SD-8 power sans battery suggests that a "self-excitation" feature is useful. I've suggested that B&C pursue this as a product improvement but until that happens, Z-25 is the way to make it happen. >Second, I realize that the SD-8 is always spinning whenever the engine is >turning, but is there any disadvantage to having it always on-line? It's not "on line" until a connection exists between the regulator output and the bus. There are many systems in aircraft that operate similarly. A number of generator installations on turbine aircraft can be taken "off line" by opening the reverse current control contactor . . . the generator is still up and running, producing whatever voltage the regulator commands . . . but no utilization of that energy can be made until the contactor is closed. This is how the SD-8 operates under the Z-13 architecture. Know that if you pre-flight the SD-8, the first time you turn it on after the engine is started, it will come alive and remain alive as long as it's being turned by the engine. The only thing that the Z-25 mod gets you is a cold startup sans battery. > > >Third, could Z-25 be altered to allow self-excitation only when needed? Sure. Put the relay in series with the AC output from the alternator . . . but then a second set of contacts on the same relay would be used to keep a small amount of bias current from constantly loading the battery when the airplane is parked. You double the probability of relay failure while adding no operational value for having done so. Hence the configuration of Z-13 as you see it whether or not modified per Z-25. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:52:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S700 2-10 Switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > I am using Z13/8 for wiring my Cozy. >At this stage I am installing one PMAG and one impulse Slick. >As I intend to eventually run two PMAG's I am installing two S700 2-10 >switches. After repeated efforts I still do not understand the connection on >these switches at all. > > The question is, how do I wire the Slick to the 2-10 switch. I need to know >which tabs the shield and core attach to. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Ignition/EMag-Magneto_Wiring_Options.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:55 PM PST US From: "Chris Byrne" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S700 2-10 Switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" Bob. Thanks very much. I note the date on the REV-A- was yesterday. Your efforts are very much appreciated. Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:46 PM PST US From: "Alan K. Adamson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: S700 2-10 Switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alan K. Adamson" Hehe... That'd prolly be *today* in the US :)... At least the version I saw, had a 10/12/06 date, or for you down unders... A 06/10/12 date. Anyway, it's still the 12th in US land :)... Good luck and a very timely creation and response Bob! Alan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Byrne Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:05 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: S700 2-10 Switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" --> Bob. Thanks very much. I note the date on the REV-A- was yesterday. Your efforts are very much appreciated. Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:55 PM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Self-Excitation Option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" Priceless. Thank you for that lucid and thorough explanation, Bob. John DO NOT ARCHIVE