Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:43 AM - Sparky's misadventures conclude ()
2. 07:33 AM - Re: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) (Dave N6030X)
3. 08:41 AM - Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 09:05 AM - Ground Wire for Starter Contactor ()
5. 02:22 PM - Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13 and E-Bus) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 02:25 PM - Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 02:52 PM - 12 volt accesory outlet (rv7a.builder)
8. 07:21 PM - Re: electrical system for review and critique (John Swartout)
9. 07:34 PM - Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? (DonVS)
10. 08:10 PM - 80A Fuse on Z-13 (PIAVIS)
11. 08:28 PM - Re: 80A Fuse on Z-13 (DonVS)
12. 11:00 PM - Press-to-talk switch wiring. (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Sparky's misadventures conclude |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <psiegel@fuse.net>
Thanks to 'lectric Bob's (and others' on the list!) help, the non functioning master
contactor problem has been solved!
Turns out that Mr. Cliplead revealed that when sparks flew, the jumper from the
BAT terminal to the little fourth terminal on the B&C contactor had burned through,
which wouldn't let electrons activate the little solenoid inside the contactor.
Installing a new jumper solved the problem!
Lesson learned...install those little rubber boots on ALL exposed "hot" terminals!
As a side note, what precipitated the problem was "weak" com radios. In an attempt
to fix that, the connections for the com antenna ground plane were checked,
leading to the sparks when the antenna connector flopped over onto the master
contactor.
Turns out THAT problem was caused by a malfunctioning relay that regulated the
access from the two com radios to a single com antenna. Both com radios had to
go back for repair. When one radio transmits directly into another through
a common antenna, bad things happen.
Another lesson learned...yeah it is nice to try to minimize the number of external
antennae on a metal airplane for esthetic and drag reasons. But the entire
point of having redundant radios to back each other up is lost when a single
point failure of the necessary relay connection between the two radios and the
single antenna can knock out all communications!
So THAT is why Sparky's Evo will be sporting TWO com antennae on the belly now!
Paul Siegel
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Question on Z-13 and E-Buss (Lengthy) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
One thing I find useful when you get bogged down in M-bus vs E-bus vs
B-bus divisions is to go flying and start turning off everything
electrical. Eventually you realize just how little you really need
to have, unless you're in IMC with ice. For instance, the turn
coordinator is sometimes presumed to be important, but in VFR, it's
just not needed at all, so it doesn't have to be sitting there on the
e-bus drawing all that current.
Also, remember in the event of an off-field emergency landing, you
want to be able to shut off your fuel pump and some other things
you've currently got wired to your battery.
Dave Morris
At 11:27 PM 10/10/2006, you wrote:
>I'm approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this
>board but forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions.
>
>I'm starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an
>RV-7, IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327),
>P800B audio panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP.
>
>I've done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do
>have a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against
>Normal Ops, Main Alt Fail, and Battery only):
... snip ...
>
>Battery: Average 4A
>
>EFIS 1 ADI
>Fuel Pump
>Starter
>EDI 4000 (Eng Monitor)
>GMA-340 (Audio)
>SL-30 (Nav)
>SL-30 (Com-Rec)
>SL-30 (Com-Tx)
>EI #1 (P-Mag)
>EI #2 (P-Mag)
>Lights - Lnd
>"Lights - Flood/Cargo -.1
> Cargo - .1
> Panel- .5A
> Cockpit - .2"
>Main Battery Contactor
>Starter Contactor
>Clock
>
>The list for the Battery buss seems extensive but my thoughts were
>that if stuck on top IFR, these items are potentially needed. Yes,
>that assumes both main and SD-8 alternator went south. The question
>is, using an SD-8, can run over 8A on the buss? Is this a valid
>distribution of components? Some of these on the Batt buss are also
>used for start (EIS) or ground ops (lights, clock). The other
>question is can I split the power leads on the SL-30 without making
>the radio inop for receive- only?
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> >
> > I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
> >stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
>
> Hmmmm . . . I guess I've never seen them either. Got
> a digital camera? Send me some pictures. I note that
> B&C is still using the pictures I took.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Will try to take some tomorrow. The contactor is mounted and I am not sure
>that I can get a good enough shot to show any thing about the boot
>attachment. They appear to be molded on and I think the legs were drilled
>to allow the molding to form pass a through to hold them on.
Did you get it from B&C? I'll call them tomorrow and
see if they'll send me a sample.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
10/15/2006
Responding to an AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
<tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hello Grant, Back when I was building my airplane with a stainless steel
firewall I had occasion to do some electical circuit checking with a multi
meter. I was getting some erratic results and eventually came to the
conclusion that there was some sort of self created insulating surface film
on the stainless steel surface.
I could get good consistent meter readings only by specifically piercing
that film with the sharp point of the meter probe.
This led me to the conclusion that just bolting my starter contactor to the
firewall may not give me the best electrical grounding connection. My
starter contactor case is grounded to the brass firewall forrest-of-tabs
through-bolt. Works great.
Maybe some electrical guru on this list can verify or dispute my findings.
OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge
_____________________________________
AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hi List,
I followed the Z-11 diagram for my simple system & see that the starter
contactor has a 'firewall ground'. To me, that means it grounds through the
stainless steel firewall it is mounted on. Indeed, that is what my ohmeter
says & I'm confident it will perform fine (As I'm not flying yet & haven't
quite fired up the engine yet, I haven't actually seen the contactor work)
However, this seems to conflict with the single point ground idea basic to
Bob's philosophy. My starter contactor is the only component of my system
without a dedicated wire running to the forest of ground tabs.
Any experienced advice or opinions on this?
I've been absent the list for a long time & couldn't find anything on this
in the archives. Hope you haven't already gone over it a hundred times.
Thanks,
Grant
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: short course on bus loading (was Q on Z-13 and |
E-Bus)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:31 AM 10/15/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
>
>One thing I find useful when you get bogged down in M-bus vs E-bus vs
>B-bus divisions is to go flying and start turning off everything
>electrical. Eventually you realize just how little you really need to
>have, unless you're in IMC with ice. For instance, the turn coordinator
>is sometimes presumed to be important, but in VFR, it's just not needed at
>all, so it doesn't have to be sitting there on the e-bus drawing all that
>current.
>
>Also, remember in the event of an off-field emergency landing, you want to
>be able to shut off your fuel pump and some other things you've currently
>got wired to your battery.
>
>Dave Morris
>
>At 11:27 PM 10/10/2006, you wrote:
>>I'm approaching the time where I need to spend some time on this board
>>but forgive the somewhat basic nature of the questions.
>>
>>I'm starting to work on installation of the Z-13 architecture in an RV-7,
>>IFR with dual GRT EFIS, and Garmin stack (SL-30/480/327), P800B audio
>>panel, and TT DigiFlight II AP.
>>
>>I've done the load analysis and have come up with the following ( do have
>>a full spreadsheet with each phase of flight listed against Normal Ops,
>>Main Alt Fail, and Battery only):
Start out supposing that you're going to put ALL the electro-
whizzies planned for your project into a nice ol' restored
but original architecture C-170. The Main bus is all you got.
Figure out if you have sized the alternator to carry the loads
under various flight conditions and still have 15A or so
headroom for battery recharging.
If you're going to have a plain-vanilla, Z-11 or an SD-8
enhanced Z-13, you figure out what gizmos are useful
for the en route mode of flight, i.e. ENDURANCE MODE.
Add up CONTINUOUS loads on these devices and then
see if you have sized the battery for ALT OUT ENDURANCE
with NO ASSIST for the design goals you've established.
Keep in mind that:
(1) battery capacity is NOT a linear function of load
vs rated capacity. The apparent capacity falls as loads
increase primarily due to internal resistance of the
battery.
(2) the BEST way to assess battery capacity to a
design goal is to CapCheck it under the en route
load determined above.
(3) if you're a Z-11 system, the what's in the battery
is all you have. Leave 25% or more of your real capacity
for approach to landing. Knowing the required real
capacity under Plan-B operations is how you size your
battery selection.
(4) if you're a Z-13 system, then the e-bus can be
loaded to the full capacity of the SD-8 while holding
100% of the battery's stored energy in reserve for
approach to landing.
E-bus means ENDURANCE-bus . . . its design goal
is to prevent an emergency by encouraging well
crafted Plan-B and preventative maintenance
programs for the properly sized battery.
Battery-Bus loads fall in two classes:
(1) things necessary to keep an electrically
dependent engine running. When you have bad
smells in the cockpit, it's useful to be able
to turn EVERYTHING off and not have the engine
quit. Don't forget to consider Battery Bus
loads in the endurance modeling described above.
(2) things useful on the ground during loading,
unloading and storage support. Clocks, utility
lighting, battery maintenance, etc.
Every item not needed for alternator-out endurance
ops for 99% of your planned flight regimes goes
on the Main-Bus. Yes, if you find yourself in bad
weather and the main alternator craps, you do have
an emergency. That's Plan-C . . . get on the ground
and or out of IMC ASAP. Plan-B numbers are irrelevant.
Keep in mind that you can always bring the main bus
back up and run anything in the airplane . . . but
now you have an emergency and Plan-C is in effect.
Rethink your distribution of loads based on this
philosophy and see what it looks like.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:04 PM 10/15/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
>10/15/2006
>
>Responding to an AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
><tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
>Hello Grant, Back when I was building my airplane with a stainless steel
>firewall I had occasion to do some electical circuit checking with a multi
>meter. I was getting some erratic results and eventually came to the
>conclusion that there was some sort of self created insulating surface
>film on the stainless steel surface.
>
>I could get good consistent meter readings only by specifically piercing
>that film with the sharp point of the meter probe.
>
>This led me to the conclusion that just bolting my starter contactor to
>the firewall may not give me the best electrical grounding connection. My
>starter contactor case is grounded to the brass firewall forrest-of-tabs
>through-bolt. Works great.
>
>Maybe some electrical guru on this list can verify or dispute my findings.
>
>OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge
Yup. Surface treatments for stainless -and- aluminums
do NOT make for good electrical connections. In the
big iron birds we "bond" electro-whizzies to the airframe
by cleaning the area around the holes (bonding brush or
scotch-bright pad on your die-grinder) and then using
fasteners capable of generating and sustaining a lot of
force. I'd recommend nothing smaller than 8-32 hardware
for attaching terminals and appliances to the airframe . . .
10-32 is really good. Use all metal locking nuts too.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | 12 volt accesory outlet |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "rv7a.builder" <rv7a.builder@yahoo.com>
I am approaching one of the last electrical task on my
RV-7A. I installed a 12 volt outlet on the panel but I
would like to verify the wiring and fuse selection for
this device. The outlet came with no instructions. It
did include 3 fast-on terminals which 2 are blue and
one red. That would suggest that one of the connecting
wires would be smaller than the other 2? There are 2
tabs in the outlet that are brass in color and one tab
that is silver. Any help here would be much
appreciated. Thanks John.
__________________________________________________
Message 8
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| Subject: | electrical system for review and critique |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Apologies, Erich. You were absolutely right about sizing an ANL current
limiter for the B-lead. I just found the reference at
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/anl/anlvsjjs.html, bottom of page 2 to
top of page 3. Sorry for my obtuseness.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: electrical system for review and critique
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
Hey again John
I checked the archives regarding your reference on the 60 amp fuse - I
dont think you are interpreting this quite right. The original post was
not really about Z-13, but a modified starter set-up that had been
suggested. Also, the MAX 60 fuse is something different than an ANL
current limiter - check out the link posted in Bob's reply from the
archives:
http://www.bussmann.com/shared/library/catalogs/Buss_Auto-Fuse_Cat.pdf
I cant provide a direct reference - probably something from the
AeroElectric FAQ files - but I still think that the ANL40 is pretty robust
fuse and is fine with the 40 amp alternator. Somebody please correct me if
Im full of it.
Erich Weaver
Message 9
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| Subject: | Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> >
> > I tried to get the "boots" off and gave up. I think they are oin to
> >stay. Any good ideas as to how to remove them?
>
> Hmmmm . . . I guess I've never seen them either. Got
> a digital camera? Send me some pictures. I note that
> B&C is still using the pictures I took.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>Will try to take some tomorrow. The contactor is mounted and I am not sure
>that I can get a good enough shot to show any thing about the boot
>attachment. They appear to be molded on and I think the legs were drilled
>to allow the molding to form pass a through to hold them on.
Did you get it from B&C? I'll call them tomorrow and
see if they'll send me a sample.
Bob . . .
Yes it was from B&C. I was not able to get any useful pictures today. Hope
you can come up with a way to remove the boots without damaging the
contactor.
Message 10
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| Subject: | 80A Fuse on Z-13 |
Coming off the starter contactor in the Z-13 diagram, there's an 80A fuse
between the current limiter and the starter contactor. Electrical systems
are my weakness but is this an in-line fuse? If so who stocks the 80A?
Thanks,
Jim
RV-7
Almost starting to wire
Message 11
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| Subject: | 80A Fuse on Z-13 |
The ANL limiter is the 80A fuse.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of PIAVIS
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:10 PM
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 80A Fuse on Z-13
Coming off the starter contactor in the Z-13 diagram, there's an 80A fuse
between the current limiter and the starter contactor. Electrical systems
are my weakness but is this an in-line fuse? If so who stocks the 80A?
Thanks,
Jim
RV-7
Almost starting to wire
Message 12
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| Subject: | Press-to-talk switch wiring. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
I have UPS Aviation Technologies (now Garmin) SL-30 and GX-65 radio stack
with their audio panel (actually PS6000 guts and UPS AT nameplate). In the
installation drawings they show the PTT switch across two of the microphone
connections (Mic Key and return) but don't say anything about shielding or
twisting the pair. Lectric Bob's drawings show a twisted pair of wires from
the Press to Talk switch to the radios. Is there anything to be gained by
doing this if the installation drawings don't show it? I know the fields
cancel each other out in a twisted pair but if these are not twisted will
they pick up unwanted electrical noise and feed it into the Mic inputs?
I have the pilot's PTT on a Ray Allen stick grip, the wires will feed
through a common hole in the spar along with a bundle of other wires (mostly
power wires for strobe pack, taxi, landing, position lights and pitot
heater). What I would like to do is utilize the 5 conductor wire that Ray
Allan sells (for use with his Stick and Trim Servos) to connect the PTT to
the radios. The three other wires in this cable will carry discrete signals
for Ez Pilot Servo disconnect, Radio frequency flip/flop and a light that
will be used intermittently by the trim control module to display status and
faults. The Ray Allan 5 wire bundle is not shielded and the wires are
twisted but only about 1 turn for 1.5 inches of length. If I need to use
twisted pair will this work or will there be interference from the other
wires in the bundle (these wires will only have signal very intermittently)?
Will the 1 twist per 1.5 inches of length be enough to satisfy a requirement
for a twisted pair? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Last 1% of the 90% to go
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