---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/17/06: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:30 AM - Re: TT ADI Wiring (Werner Schneider) 2. 02:45 AM - Re: New battery option (Bob Lee) 3. 05:37 AM - Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? (Tinne maha) 4. 05:43 AM - Re: New battery option (Harley) 5. 06:45 AM - Re: New battery option (Bill Boyd) 6. 06:57 AM - Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? (Ernest Christley) 7. 08:03 AM - Re: New battery option (Harley) 8. 08:04 AM - Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:16 AM - Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? (Larry Rosen) 10. 08:31 AM - Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8 (Matt Prather) 11. 09:48 AM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 12. 10:14 AM - Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8 (John Swartout) 13. 10:28 AM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 14. 10:28 AM - Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8 (John Swartout) 15. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? () 16. 11:16 AM - Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 17. 11:19 AM - Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 18. 11:39 AM - Re: New battery option (Speedy11@aol.com) 19. 11:42 AM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 20. 12:53 PM - Re: E-bus Operations With SD-8 (Matt Prather) 21. 01:36 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 22. 01:38 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 23. 01:55 PM - Re: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? (Chris Byrne) 24. 03:23 PM - Ruboff decals for panel lettering (Bill and Marsha) 25. 04:05 PM - Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering (Neil Clayton) 26. 04:15 PM - Re: New battery optionNew battery option/W&B (Larry L. Tompkins, P.E.) 27. 04:21 PM - Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering (Dave N6030X) 28. 06:22 PM - Re: New battery option (Kevin Horton) 29. 06:29 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (Kevin Horton) 30. 07:28 PM - Re: Ruboff decals for panel lettering (Kenneth Melvin) 31. 07:54 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 32. 08:09 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 33. 08:21 PM - Re: New battery option (Bob White) 34. 08:25 PM - Re: Fuel Pump Switch(es) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 35. 09:22 PM - Re: New battery option (Larry Ford) 36. 10:30 PM - Re: New battery option (Ed Holyoke) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:56 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TT ADI Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider Hi Chris, I would still go for an on/off switch, except if you have CB's. When the AP goes nuts you still would need a switch/CB to switch it off in worst case. I know of one person where this happened and the momentarily switch did not work (the AP head was defect). br Werner Chris Byrne wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" > >Those of you that have installed a TT ADI. >Did you wire it through a switch or straight to the bus. >Just wondering if it needs to be protected while cranking the engine. > >Thanks >Chris Byrne >SYDNEY > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:53 AM PST US From: "Bob Lee" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New battery option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" Bill, Thanks for the link (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge charistics to the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery out performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? Regards, Bob Lee N52BL KR2 Suwanee, GA 91% done only 65% to go! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:05 AM PST US From: "Tinne maha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" Yes, I've done it! (If I can, anyone can) I have an Ipod Mini running off ship's power, wired into my flightcom 403 intercom. I had a difficult time finding the info & equipment (not all in one place), but finally got it done. I'm not flying yet, but have operated the system & listened to the music through my headphones. As far as accessories, I will have to look up where/what I got later, but a google search for IPOD accessories yields many hits. You can find chargers as well as connections to hook into car stereo systems. Not too expensive. I got a charger, chopped the cigarette lighter off it & wired it straight to my main bus. I believe most intercoms have a pin labeled aux in or music in or something like that. I put the output there & voila! Time: 05:58:12 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? If you haven't yet, stop and think that it might just be more convenient and better solution afterall to just buy headsets with input plugs and let everyone listen to the music they want, at the volume they want and to not listen to anything if they don't want, etc. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Deems Davis >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis > >Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it >looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video >tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 player >with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site and didn't >find an automobile type/docking station. The preference would be to install >it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's own internal batteries. >With the form factor of the ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost >anywhere and not necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done >this? > >Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:42 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option Bob... A quick search on Google brought this up: www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625 As far as I could see, in my few seconds of searching, this was the lowest price...other distributors Google found went as high as slightly over $100... Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bob Lee wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" > > Bill, > > Thanks for the link (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). > As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge charistics to > the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery out > performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? > > Regards, > > Bob Lee > N52BL KR2 > Suwanee, GA > 91% done only 65% to go! > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:08 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" batteriesareus.com is who I dealt with. I think it was 74.50 shipped, but I've actually misplaced the paperwork at the moment. -Bill B On 10/17/06, Harley wrote: > > Bob... > > A quick search on Google brought this up: > > www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625 > > As far as I could see, in my few seconds of searching, this was the lowest > price...other distributors Google found went as high as slightly over > $100... > > Harley Dixon > ________________________________ > > > Bob Lee wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" > > Bill, > > Thanks for the link > (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). > As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge charistics to > the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery out > performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? > > Regards, > > Bob Lee > N52BL KR2 > Suwanee, GA > 91% done only 65% to go! > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:00 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley Deems Davis wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, > it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & > video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like > MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples > web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The > preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run > solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the > ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not > necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? Install a mini-DIN jack off of your intercom, and you can plug in whatever next years format might be. Lock yourself into the Ipod, and you have the same issue that you're facing now with tapes and CDs. Keep the interface generic. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:07 AM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option Morning, Bill.. Just checked there (www.batteriesareus.com) and the battery price is indeed $74.50...and free shipping... Harley ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Boyd wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" > > > batteriesareus.com is who I dealt with. I think it was 74.50 shipped, > but I've actually misplaced the paperwork at the moment. > > -Bill B > > On 10/17/06, Harley wrote: >> >> Bob... >> >> A quick search on Google brought this up: >> >> www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ODY-PC625 >> >> As far as I could see, in my few seconds of searching, this was the >> lowest >> price...other distributors Google found went as high as slightly over >> $100... >> >> Harley Dixon >> ________________________________ >> >> >> Bob Lee wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" >> >> Bill, >> >> Thanks for the link >> (http://www.odysseybatteries.com/files/techbook.pdf). >> As it turns out the Odessey PC625 (17AH) is equal in discharge >> charistics to >> the Panasonic LC-X1220P (20AH). In addition, the Odessey 17AH battery >> out >> performs the Panasonic 17AH battery for loads of my endurance bus. >> >> So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? >> >> Regards, >> >> Bob Lee >> N52BL KR2 >> Suwanee, GA >> 91% done only 65% to go! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:04:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:46 AM 10/17/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Gents: > > >How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG >battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and >the SD-8 carries the E-bus load? "Nearly fully charged" is un-quantified . . . so a quantified answer is not possible. > I m planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics bus which would draw a > continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an up-to-2-amp load (the PDA > running a moving map) and let it run on its own battery for a couple > hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder (~2 amps) if battery > charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how would I know? Consider this about alternator and battery behavior: "Overloaded" alternators will not put out power at a regulated voltage . . . as the current demands rise to exceed the alternator's rating, the output voltage will sag. The current that a battery draws is strongly influenced by bus voltage while the current that appliances draw is roughly proportional to bus voltage. This means that if you "overload" the alternator with a combination of running and battery-recharge loads, the voltage will sag and transfer of power will favor of the running loads. Starting an engine takes but a few percent of a battery's capacity. Likelihood that you're going to have a seriously discharged battery battery by the time you launch is low. If the battery is still wanting to take in energy from a 14.2 volt bus and your main alternator quits, a 6A running load will still leave 2A to top off the battery but in no case is the operation of running loads compromised because the battery is not topped off. > By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? The e-bus fuse protects that wire ONLY. If your system is properly designed, that fuse will NEVER open based on the combination of battery/alternator/running loads. > I m not planning to have an ammeter. That's what load analysis is all about. KNOW what the loads are for Plan-A and Plan-B and in some cases Plan-C. Electrical system failure management in flight based on readings taken from panel instruments is not good design, planning or maintenance. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:05 AM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry Rosen Not any help on the wiring, but AirGizmos does make a dock that fits into the panel for an ipod. Larry Rosen RV-10 #356 Ernest Christley wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley > > > Deems Davis wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis >> >> >> Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, >> it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & >> video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like >> MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples >> web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The >> preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run >> solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the >> ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not >> necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? > > Install a mini-DIN jack off of your intercom, and you can plug in > whatever next years format might be. > > Lock yourself into the Ipod, and you have the same issue that you're > facing now with tapes and CDs. Keep the interface generic. > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" I don't see this as a big concern.. I think the system behavior will be good with the loads and supplies you are talking about. If the main alternator fails, the SD8 will supply enough power to run your e-bus plus 2A. If the battery is really flat, the bus voltage may sag from the regulated voltage (14.5V) to no lower than about 13.5V. It won't go lower than that because the battery charge current will drop off steeply as the bus voltage sags below 14.5V, and would probably be zero if the bus sags to 13V. The battery will take whatever excess charging energy is available from the SD-8, but no more. And, if the non-battery-charging bus loads rise above the output of the SD-8, any charge left in the battery will keep the bus voltage from sagging further. As Bob has suggested in the past, a voltmeter is a great tool in this kind of system.. If your goal is to be able to run until you're out of gas, reduce electrical loads until the bus voltage rises above 12.5 (indicating that you aren't depleting the battery). You could then be confident that the SD-8 was keeping up. Regards, Matt- > Gents: > > > How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG > battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and > the > SD-8 carries the E-bus load? I'm planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics > bus which would draw a continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an > up-to-2-amp load (the PDA running a moving map) and let it run on its own > battery for a couple hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder > (~2 amps) if battery charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how > would I know? By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? I'm not planning > to have an ammeter. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:29 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- =========================================== Normal Operation: Fuel valve on both all the time (no valve to switch). One or the other electric pump on to select tank used. Tanks switched with the pumps. Takeoff and landing. Same as above but both electric pumps on. Failures. Electric pump failure. Fuel selector switched to that tank if that fuel is needed. Mechanical pump failure would NOT be noticed in this system but could be checked at startup (or in the air if you wanted to turn both pumps off). All of the advantages you pointed out but would not be dependent on the electrical system or an electric pump failure. I like simple systems. I owned and flew a Beech Duchess (light light twin) for 14 years. Left tank fed left engine, right tank fed right engine. No switching fuel valves unless an engine failure. Went back to a single engine three years ago, first time I had to switch tanks I wasn't happy having to fool with the fuel. A year later in the same plane, my wife (a pilot also) switched tanks for me but commented that it didn't feel right going into the left position. I looked down at the valve and saw that a loose nut from a screw was lodged between the handle and the stop preventing the valve from fully engaging. Luckily the engine continued running , valve back to right, fish nut out, valve to left then worked fine. Should there be loose nuts in the airplane? No, but stuff happens. Therefore when I heard of your system, I liked it immediately. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:39 AM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:46 AM 10/17/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Gents: > > > >How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG >battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and >the SD-8 carries the E-bus load? "Nearly fully charged" is un-quantified . . . so a quantified answer is not possible. I know. I was fishing for a range of probable draws. It struck me that battery charge state represents an UNKNOWN variable that I lack the necessary knowledge to properly plan for. I trust that the Z-drawings represent "proper system design," but practically everything I know about airplane electrical systems has come from your book and this list. When I find what APPEAR to be inconsistencies, I seek clarification. You stress the importance of understanding the operation of whatever system you use. You recommend sizing a main alternator to have 20 - 25% of capacity available for battery charging, IIRC. In a single-engine VFR OBAM airplane with a typical 40A alternator, that means 8 to 10 amps for battery charging. O.K.--I assumed that is a value that would charge even a severely discharged battery in a "reasonable" period of time without starving the other loads. But at the other end--a "nearly- fully charged battery"--all I knew was that when I use a battery charger to charge up a deep cycle battery, the current draw diminishes as the battery gets charged, but it never goes to zero. It is not clear from the small-scale meter on the charger just what that amperage is. if you "overload" the alternator with a combination of running and battery-recharge loads, the voltage will sag and transfer of power will favor of the running loads. Starting an engine takes but a few percent of a battery's capacity. Likelihood that you're going to have a seriously discharged battery battery by the time you launch is low. If the battery is still wanting to take in energy from a 14.2 volt bus and your main alternator quits, a 6A running load will still leave 2A to top off the battery but in no case is the operation of running loads compromised because the battery is not topped off. Thanks. That relieves my concern. > By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? The e-bus fuse protects that wire ONLY. If your system is properly designed, that fuse will NEVER open based on the combination of battery/alternator/running loads. Okay. Didn't know if a hungry battery could draw enough to threaten that fuse. I'm relieved that it can't. > I m not planning to have an ammeter. That's what load analysis is all about. KNOW what the loads are for Plan-A and Plan-B and in some cases Plan-C. That's why I asked the question--I discovered there was a load I didn't KNOW the value of--or where else to find it. But you've shown me that that item (battery charging load) doesn't really matter as long as I KNOW that if bus voltage isn't close to the set point of the SD-8, I may need to shed some other KNOWN load to let the SD-8 devote some more electrons to battery charging--even though that shouldn't be necessary if I haven't abused the battery. Electrical system failure management in flight based on readings taken from panel instruments is not good design, planning or maintenance. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" The way I ran this system was to only run both pumps for TO and landing...Maybe batting around the pattern I would leave both pumps running but generally would only do this if I had way more fuel that I would burn on the flight. Normal cruise would be one pump or the other...if the pump quit i simply flipped on the second pump. What you are getting at Barry is the fact that you have to understand the system is different and is managed accordingly. But it is very simple and the only really nasty failure mode I can think of is what happens in the event of a lightening strike. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- ================== Normal Operation: Fuel valve on both all the time (no valve to switch). One or the other electric pump on to select tank used. Tanks switched with the pumps. Takeoff and landing. Same as above but both electric pumps on. Failures. Electric pump failure. Fuel selector switched to that tank if that fuel is needed. Mechanical pump failure would NOT be noticed in this system but could be checked at startup (or in the air if you wanted to turn both pumps off). All of the advantages you pointed out but would not be dependent on the electrical system or an electric pump failure. I like simple systems. I owned and flew a Beech Duchess (light light twin) for 14 years. Left tank fed left engine, right tank fed right engine. No switching fuel valves unless an engine failure. Went back to a single engine three years ago, first time I had to switch tanks I wasn't happy having to fool with the fuel. A year later in the same plane, my wife (a pilot also) switched tanks for me but commented that it didn't feel right going into the left position. I looked down at the valve and saw that a loose nut from a screw was lodged between the handle and the stop preventing the valve from fully engaging. Luckily the engine continued running , valve back to right, fish nut out, valve to left then worked fine. Should there be loose nuts in the airplane? No, but stuff happens. Therefore when I heard of your system, I liked it immediately. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:25 AM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" Thanks, Matt. I didn't comprehend that the battery would be a kind of "spongy" load that would only draw whatever surplus current is available. I get it now. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Prather Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:30 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" I don't see this as a big concern.. I think the system behavior will be good with the loads and supplies you are talking about. If the main alternator fails, the SD8 will supply enough power to run your e-bus plus 2A. If the battery is really flat, the bus voltage may sag from the regulated voltage (14.5V) to no lower than about 13.5V. It won't go lower than that because the battery charge current will drop off steeply as the bus voltage sags below 14.5V, and would probably be zero if the bus sags to 13V. The battery will take whatever excess charging energy is available from the SD-8, but no more. And, if the non-battery-charging bus loads rise above the output of the SD-8, any charge left in the battery will keep the bus voltage from sagging further. As Bob has suggested in the past, a voltmeter is a great tool in this kind of system.. If your goal is to be able to run until you're out of gas, reduce electrical loads until the bus voltage rises above 12.5 (indicating that you aren't depleting the battery). You could then be confident that the SD-8 was keeping up. Regards, Matt- > Gents: > > > How much current should I expect a nearly-fully-charged 20 amp-hour RG > battery to draw in the event the main alternator gives up the ghost and > the > SD-8 carries the E-bus load? I'm planning a Heavy-Duty Endurance/Avionics > bus which would draw a continuous 6 amps, however I could shed an > up-to-2-amp load (the PDA running a moving map) and let it run on its own > battery for a couple hours, and/or turn off the COM radio and transponder > (~2 amps) if battery charging required more than 2 amps or so. But how > would I know? By the E-bus Alternate Feed fuse blowing? I'm not planning > to have an ammeter. > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:57 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ---- Tinne maha wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" > > Yes, I've done it! (If I can, anyone can) > > I have an Ipod Mini running off ship's power, wired into my flightcom 403 > intercom. I had a difficult time finding the info & equipment (not all in > one place), but finally got it done. I'm not flying yet, but have operated > the system & listened to the music through my headphones. > > As far as accessories, I will have to look up where/what I got later, but a > google search for IPOD accessories yields many hits. You can find chargers > as well as connections to hook into car stereo systems. Not too expensive. > I got a charger, chopped the cigarette lighter off it & wired it straight to > my main bus. I believe most intercoms have a pin labeled aux in or music in > or something like that. I put the output there & voila! > > > > Time: 05:58:12 PM PST US > From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done > this? > > If you haven't yet, stop and think that it might just be more convenient and > better > solution afterall to just buy headsets with input plugs and let everyone > listen to the music they want, at the volume they want and to not listen to > anything > if they don't want, etc. > > -------------- Original message -------------- > From: Deems Davis > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis > > > >Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, it > >looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & video > >tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like MP3 player > >with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples web-site and didn't > >find an automobile type/docking station. The preference would be to install > >it so that it doesn't have to run solely off it's own internal batteries. > >With the form factor of the ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost > >anywhere and not necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done > >this? > > > >Deems Davis # 406 Panel/Finishing http://deemsrv10.com/ > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" While we are on the subject....What voltage is the SD8 normally regulated to? I have yet to test it for real (and I have electric fuel pumps so its hard to get more than 12.2V at normal ground running RPMs...)But I do see the volts drop from 12.2V to 12 at idle so I assume its functioning. I think I might take off with just the SD8 running (after taxiing out to the runway with the 60A altrunning to make sure I have a fully charged battery) and cirle over the airport to make sure the SD8 keeps 12.1V or above during my min power draw emergency scenario. Sound reasonable? Thanks Frank ________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ipod (MP3 player) Integration- anybody done this? From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Deems, Here is what I am planning on doing with the PS 8000B that I'm putting in. First I am using an Alpine IVA-D300 for the core entertainment system. It has Sirius, DVD, MP3/WMA, external audio/video input capabilities, and the screen retracts when not in use. It was the unit you saw in my truck at Airventure. In addition I am putting a screen in the back of the seats for the rear seat pax. You can pick these up from eBay I am putting in a switch to make the copilot seat selectable between crew and pax so if it is a non-pilot they aren't stuck over with me and I can listen to music and they can watch a movie or whatever with the pax. There will be a camera in the top of the VS that can be selected as an input on the Alpine for an external view. In addition I am putting in a regular mini jack in the backseat for the pax to plug in whatever they may want for music. Lastly I am putting in jacks (not sure where yet) for the external audio/video inputs in the Alpine to plug in whatever is the next big thing for audio/video playback. Maybe something like the Creative Zen Vision. 60GB is enough for me to carry 75 movies which should be enough selection to keep the most indecisive 5 year old happy. I may also use the Alpines audio/video outputs and connect them to a remote mounted camcorder for the external shots when the whim hit's me. It seems like a confusing bunch of things that are overly complicated but it really isn't that bad. It's really just two switches and a couple jacks. But it should provide enough flexibility to keep the family/pax happy on a 6 hour flight regardless of what tech does for a while. Now if I can just get my wife to understand that coming down from 15,000 feet for a potty break costs just a bit more than pulling over at a gas station. :-) Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage > > Deems Davis wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Deems Davis >> >> >> Was planning on installing a CD player, but after some consideration, >> it looks like CD's are _eventually_ going to go the way of cassette & >> video tape . Has anybody installed/integrated an IPOD or IPOD -like >> MP3 player with your audio panel? I did a little looking on Apples >> web-site and didn't find an automobile type/docking station. The >> preference would be to install it so that it doesn't have to run >> solely off it's own internal batteries. With the form factor of the >> ipod being so small, it could be mounted almost anywhere and not >> necessarily on the panel itself. Surely somebody has done this? > > Install a mini-DIN jack off of your intercom, and you can plug in > whatever next years format might be. > > Lock yourself into the Ipod, and you have the same issue that you're > facing now with tapes and CDs. Keep the interface generic. > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:54 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New battery option This is not related to batteries, but ... Franz, you have one of the coolest names I've ever seen! Stan Sutterfield Do not archive Franz Fux Operations Manager Last Frontier Heliskiing www.lastfrontierheli.com phone: 1 250 558-7980 Box 1118 Vernon, BC ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:54 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Frank: The issue is NOT running the pumps, one or both ... BUT, running of BOTH tanks at the same time. This is a No-No for low wingers. It is easier to pump AIR than fuel so the pumps run dry ALL PUMPS electrical and mechanical. For when a pump is given a choice of AIR Vs Fuel, such as in the 'Y' connection where both tanks feed the same engine mechanical pump, the pump takes the path of least resistance ... AIR. As far as the lighting strike ... I don't know for sure, but I would say you are TOAST. But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both configuration will lead to an emergency situation. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ============================================================================= ========= The way I ran this system was to only run both pumps for TO and landing...Maybe batting around the pattern I would leave both pumps running but generally would only do this if I had way more fuel that I would burn on the flight. Normal cruise would be one pump or the other...if the pump quit i simply flipped on the second pump. What you are getting at Barry is the fact that you have to understand the system is different and is managed accordingly. But it is very simple and the only really nasty failure mode I can think of is what happens in the event of a lightening strike. Frank From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- =========================================== ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:44 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: E-bus Operations With SD-8 From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Noodling around on the aeroelectric website, I saw this pdf: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternators/SD8-Performance.pdf It shows the output current at 13.8V and 12.5V. I don't know what the voltage would be at zero load... Depending on what "normal ground running RPMs" actually are, you could extrapolate what the bus load is, or if you know what the bus load is, you can determine wether the alternator is actually functioning. 12.2V, depending one where you are measuring it, seems kind of low.. Matt- > While we are on the subject....What voltage is the SD8 normally > regulated to? I have yet to test it for real (and I have electric fuel > pumps so its hard to get more than 12.2V at normal ground running > RPMs...)But I do see the volts drop from 12.2V to 12 at idle so I assume > its functioning. > > I think I might take off with just the SD8 running (after taxiing out to > the runway with the 60A altrunning to make sure I have a fully charged > battery) and cirle over the airport to make sure the SD8 keeps 12.1V or > above during my min power draw emergency scenario. > > Sound reasonable? > > Thanks > > Frank > > ________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" It is not a NO-NO Barry....In an experimental airplane you can do what you want...And I have and i'm happy with the system. I simply leave a small reserve in each tank. As I said the only time I run both pumps is for take off and landing. if you did suck a tank dry then you screwed up...Simply turn off the low tank, not that it should have been running with a nearly empty tank in the first place. I think if you focussed on the benefits of the system (i.e fuel pumps in both both a cool place and in the hydraulically correct place) then the small downside of sucking a tank dry (that should never happen unless your asleep) is a minor consideration. I did not suck a tank dry in 400 hours...but as I said the system is not normally run with both pumps running at the same time. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Frank: The issue is NOT running the pumps, one or both ... BUT, running of BOTH tanks at the same time. This is a No-No for low wingers. It is easier to pump AIR than fuel so the pumps run dry ALL PUMPS electrical and mechanical. For when a pump is given a choice of AIR Vs Fuel, such as in the 'Y' connection where both tanks feed the same engine mechanical pump, the pump takes the path of least resistance ... AIR. As far as the lighting strike ... I don't know for sure, but I would say you are TOAST. But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both configuration will lead to an emergency situation. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ============ The way I ran this system was to only run both pumps for TO and landing...Maybe batting around the pattern I would leave both pumps running but generally would only do this if I had way more fuel that I would burn on the flight. Normal cruise would be one pump or the other...if the pump quit i simply flipped on the second pump. What you are getting at Barry is the fact that you have to understand the system is different and is managed accordingly. But it is very simple and the only really nasty failure mode I can think of is what happens in the event of a lightening strike. Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) Ed: With in the body of your email I inserted my responces. Barry - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hi Frank, I've been following this thread for a while. I like your idea for the fuel system. Just a couple of questions. I'm thinking of using a carbed lycoming. Why couldn't I use a mechanical pump, an off-left-right-both fuel valve, and two electric pumps? [Barry] - It depends on what type of plane. You DO NOT run off BOTH with a Low Wing plane. The reason is fuel flow is NEVER equal from both tanks. When one tank runs dry before the other, the engine's fuel pump will SUCK AIR. This does not happen on Gravity feed systems since gravity will keep the fuel flowing even when one tank is dry. Another reason for NOT running off BOTH is Fuel Management. When the brain is FORCED to think about switching tanks it generally does a better job of keeping important thing foremost in the thought pattern. This is something the FAA talked about in the WINGS PROGRAM. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- ================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Oh BTW this statement is incorrect...The air will simply vent through the float bowl. Note the fuel; pumps are in the wingroots. The pump will not pump air against the other pump that is pumping liquid...Can't happen. For a FI'd engine it won't vent air through the injection system bu it still won't pump air. Frank ________________________________ But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both configuration will lead to an emergency situation. Barry "Chop'd Liver" ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:03 PM PST US From: "Chris Byrne" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ground Wire for Starter Contactor? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" Bob What was the out come of the molded rubber boots? I actually have the S701-2 and have reconfigured the jumpers to the S701-1 configuration. I figured the actual contactors are one and the same. The boots are on there to stay (grinder will be required) and there is no way the contactor will get a ground with them on. Are you still recommending to grind them off? Can the case be grounded by running a wire to the gnd forest of tabs. If so what size wire. The contactor is mounted on a composite firewall 2' from the tabs. Starter contactor is on the firewall side which grounds through the stainless firewall. If the boots come off the contactor will ground through the firewall via the starter mounting bolts (starter contactor and battery contactor mounted back to back) Thanks Bob. Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:54 PM PST US From: "Bill and Marsha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal lettering for my panel? Bill S. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:48 PM PST US From: Neil Clayton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil Clayton Hi Bill....I'm very interested in this subject too. Pls send me any replies you get. Many thanks Neil At 06:21 PM 10/17/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" > > >Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal >lettering for my panel? Bill S. > > >-- -- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:58 PM PST US From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery optionNew battery option/W&B I have done numerous preliminary W&B calculations and reached a similar conclusion. Occupant weight in an RV-7 is aft of the empty CG. My solution will be to hang a Hartzell C/S prop on the nose. At least the 20 Lbs. of ballast on the nose will provide an advantage in short field and climb capability. Larry Tompkins 360 896-2925 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:47 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X This is where I'm getting ready to send my sheet: http://www.pinkscolor.com/ Dave Morris At 05:21 PM 10/17/2006, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" > > >Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal >lettering for my panel? Bill S. > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:07 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey batteries on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus shipping. I did a search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, but he sells them for $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. http://tinyurl.com/sfwps Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:34 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Barry's statement is true for most low wing light aircraft. Frank's aircraft has an unusual fuel system design that shouldn't have a problem in this scenario, as fuel pumps generally do a pretty poor job of pumping air. It would be good to do an actual test to demonstrate this mode of operation though, just in case there is a gotcha lurking. Some other low wing aircraft (e.g. some Yaks) use gravity feed from both wings to a small header tank, and have the fuel pump sucking from the header tank. This would also prevent an emergency if you run one wing dry with the fuel selector in Both. But, on RVs with a "normal" fuel system, running one wing dry with a fuel selector on Both would lead to an engine failure. Kevin Horton On 17 Oct 2006, at 16:37, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > Oh BTW this statement is incorrect...The air will simply vent > through the float bowl. Note the fuel; pumps are in the wingroots. > The pump will not pump air against the other pump that is pumping > liquid...Can't happen. > > For a FI'd engine it won't vent air through the injection system bu > it still won't pump air. > > Frank > > > But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both > configuration will lead to an emergency situation. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:46 PM PST US From: "Kenneth Melvin" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kenneth Melvin" Aerographics ( http://www.aerographics.com/) do a superb job. Kenneth Melvin, Hillsboro, Oregon -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill and Marsha Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 3:22 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ruboff decals for panel lettering --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill and Marsha" --> Whare do I start looking for a supplyer for custom made ruboff decal lettering for my panel? Bill S. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:11 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 10/17/06 4:40:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank.hinde@hp.com writes: > It is not a NO-NO Barry....In an experimental airplane you can do what > you want...And I have and i'm happy with the system. I simply leave a > small reserve in each tank. =========================== Frank: Experimental has nothing to do with it. It is PHYSICS. Do some simple experimenting. Make up a 'Y' fitting have the Gas Tank on one side of the 'Y' and NOTHING but AIR on the other side. Now put the pump at the bottom of the 'Y'. What do you think will happen? Lots of pump noise but NO FUEL. Now, I know you are going to say: But I have the electric pump at the top of the 'Y' ... It does NOT matter. Your mechanical engine pump is still at the bottom of the 'Y' and it will still suck air. Yet you may be lucky and get some fuel mixed with air ... Gee in this case I'd take physics over luck. As for your statement about the air leaking out the float bowl ... I agree 100%. It sure will ... Because AIR is the only thing that will be in the float bowl. #2 Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:41 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I tested it on the ground but I think I'll avoid the temptation in flight...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:28 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton --> Barry's statement is true for most low wing light aircraft. Frank's aircraft has an unusual fuel system design that shouldn't have a problem in this scenario, as fuel pumps generally do a pretty poor job of pumping air. It would be good to do an actual test to demonstrate this mode of operation though, just in case there is a gotcha lurking. Some other low wing aircraft (e.g. some Yaks) use gravity feed from both wings to a small header tank, and have the fuel pump sucking from the header tank. This would also prevent an emergency if you run one wing dry with the fuel selector in Both. But, on RVs with a "normal" fuel system, running one wing dry with a fuel selector on Both would lead to an engine failure. Kevin Horton On 17 Oct 2006, at 16:37, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > Oh BTW this statement is incorrect...The air will simply vent through > the float bowl. Note the fuel; pumps are in the wingroots. > The pump will not pump air against the other pump that is pumping > liquid...Can't happen. > > For a FI'd engine it won't vent air through the injection system bu it > still won't pump air. > > Frank > > > But, I can guarantee 100% that a dry tank in a Low Wing Both > configuration will lead to an emergency situation. > > Barry > "Chop'd Liver" > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:23 PM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White I would be a little cautious here. Those don't look like Odyssey batteries. It looks to me like the actual part number is UB16CL-B and they are meant to _replace_ the PC625. His PC680's clearly say "UNIVERSAL" on the side with a part number of UB22-12N. FWIW. Bob W. Do not archive On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:19:10 -0400 Kevin Horton wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" > > > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? > > There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey batteries > on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus shipping. I did a > search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, but he sells them for > $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. > > http://tinyurl.com/sfwps > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > > -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com First engine start 1/7/06 - Special Airworthiness Certificate 10/1/06 Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:44 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Barry we have beaten this to death I think....Clearly I have not conveyed the layout of the system. I do not have a mechanical pump. I have two electric pumps...Each pump is in the wingroot...I.e pushing on the fuel. There is no point in the system that the fuel is under suck (except right at the discharge of the tank)....Now the two pressure feeds from each pump join at what was the selector valve...Its a simple tee fitting. There is a check valve in each of these feeds. Now if a pump goes dry it does not pump air against the head of the other pump...I have proved this on the ground...Doesn't do the pump much good and I would never intentionally run it dry because then you have lost redundancy...I.e I'm down to a single electric pump only. If I screwed up and ran a tank dry I would hope it would be running a single pump (cruise mode) and I would simply flip on the other pump...power restored no problem. If I ran a tank dry with both pumping I would probably not know about it because the dead pump won't pump air. Now why did I do this your probably asking...Simple, its an almost vapour lock proof system no matter what fuel you choose to run. Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 7:53 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Pump Switch(es) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 10/17/06 4:40:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frank.hinde@hp.com writes: > It is not a NO-NO Barry....In an experimental airplane you can do what > you want...And I have and i'm happy with the system. I simply leave a > small reserve in each tank. =========================== Frank: Experimental has nothing to do with it. It is PHYSICS. Do some simple experimenting. Make up a 'Y' fitting have the Gas Tank on one side of the 'Y' and NOTHING but AIR on the other side. Now put the pump at the bottom of the 'Y'. What do you think will happen? Lots of pump noise but NO FUEL. Now, I know you are going to say: But I have the electric pump at the top of the 'Y' ... It does NOT matter. Your mechanical engine pump is still at the bottom of the 'Y' and it will still suck air. Yet you may be lucky and get some fuel mixed with air ... Gee in this case I'd take physics over luck. As for your statement about the air leaking out the float bowl ... I agree 100%. It sure will ... Because AIR is the only thing that will be in the float bowl. #2 Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:57 PM PST US From: "Larry Ford" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:50 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New battery option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Yeah, but that's not an odyssey battery that he's selling. Pax, Ed -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 6:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New battery option --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Lee" > > So where can we find the best price on an Odessey PC625? There used to be several vendors who sold a lot of Odyssey batteries on eBay. I bought mine there for about $50, plus shipping. I did a search on PC625, and only found one vendor now, but he sells them for $47 + $13 shipping. Hard to beat that price. http://tinyurl.com/sfwps Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8