Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:15 AM - Re: Relays. (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
2. 04:21 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
3. 04:28 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (FLYaDIVE@aol.com)
4. 06:09 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Bill Boyd)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Bill Boyd)
6. 06:55 AM - Re: Relays. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:56 AM - Re: What Now? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:03 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (OldBob Siegfried)
9. 08:22 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:27 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:34 AM - Re: Permanent Magnet vs. Series Wound... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:38 AM - Re: Boots on Battery Contactor. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 08:38 AM - Re: What Now? (Earl_Schroeder)
14. 08:54 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 09:16 AM - Re: What Now? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 12:26 PM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 12:50 PM - explosion proof fans (sarg314)
18. 03:10 PM - Re: explosion proof fans (LarryMcFarland)
19. 04:11 PM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Bill Boyd)
20. 04:45 PM - Re: explosion proof fans (sarg314)
21. 05:29 PM - Re: explosion proof fans (Richard Dudley)
22. 05:36 PM - Re: explosion proof fans (Richard E. Tasker)
23. 05:56 PM - Re: explosion proof fans (Richard E. Tasker)
24. 06:10 PM - Re: explosion proof fans (LarryMcFarland)
25. 06:11 PM - Re: explosion proof fans ()
26. 09:50 PM - EFIS D-10 Question (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
Message 1
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In a message dated 10/22/2006 12:22:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jack.byrne@bigpond.com writes:
Am wiring probe heat and taxi/ldg lights.
Should I be using a relay or will straight through the switch suffice?
Both draw 8 Amps.
Using 700 1-3 switches from B & C.
Thanks
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
================================
Chris:
I strongly believe in the K.I.S.S. M.E. Principal and fewer components with
less failure points sure supports that principal.
I would use a Toggle Switch Circuit Breaker (CB), install wire of sufficient
design (Mil-W) to handle your power requirements Now and in the Future and use
a good crimp lug & tool.
Doing it this way you eliminate the separate CB and the associated screws &
lugs ... And work. And you have a high quality switch as part of the CB, one
wire run, maybe two if you do not trust the plane to be the ground side ... I
don't!
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
In a message dated 10/21/2006 7:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sportav8r@gmail.com writes:
. The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We
drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will
remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is
installed.
============================================
Kevin:
The problem is NOT the alternator!
Your alternator is in PERFECT CONDITION, it is WORKING.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lists@stevet.net writes:
this is another good reason for
Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual
===========================
Is it REALLY you Bob that started this Wives Tail? I would say Old Wives
Tail, but you are not that old yet.
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
"Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
time."
Yamashiada
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
Barry,
You are welcome to email me direct with your theory on what, besides
an alternator malfunction, will allow two batteries in 2 days to be
sucked dry during operation of the vehicle. This has reached the
point where it is of dubious aircraft electrical relevance and should
be taken off-list.
And if you'll call me "Bill" instead of "Kevin," I'll resist the
inexplicable urge to call you "George" or Paul" ;-)
-Bill
On 10/22/06, FLYaDIVE@aol.com <FLYaDIVE@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2006 7:48:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sportav8r@gmail.com writes:
> . The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We
> drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will
> remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is
> installed.
> ============================================
> Kevin:
>
> The problem is NOT the alternator!
>
> Your alternator is in PERFECT CONDITION, it is WORKING.
>
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
> "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
> time."
> Yamashiada
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
If I recall correctly, Bob advocates periodic battery replacement (TWO
year interval) in lieu of more involved capacity testing, which some
of us find less convenient. I for one have found plenty of use for
the Odyssey "pulls" in my lawn tractors, emergency home generator, and
amateur radio applications. I find his advice eminently practical for
my purposes, and will continue to follow it.
-Bill B
On 10/22/06, FLYaDIVE@aol.com <FLYaDIVE@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> lists@stevet.net writes:
> this is another good reason for
> Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual
> ===========================
> Is it REALLY you Bob that started this Wives Tail? I would say Old Wives
> Tail, but you are not that old yet.
>
>
> Barry
> "Chop'd Liver"
>
> "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third
> time."
> Yamashiada
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:16 PM 10/22/2006 +1000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne"
><jack.byrne@bigpond.com>
>
>Am wiring probe heat and taxi/ldg lights.
>Should I be using a relay or will straight through the switch suffice?
>Both draw 8 Amps.
>Using 700 1-3 switches from B & C.
Have you reviewed any of the architecture drawings
in
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
You will note that relays and contactors are relatively
scarce in the drawings. Their use is indicated where
you need to (1) control currents that are too large for
the panel mounted switch, (2) the point where switching
needs to take place is remotely mounted from pilot's
reach on the panel or (3) you need synchronized, multi-
circuit switching to satisfy a design goal that might be
met with something like a 4-pole, double throw relay.
The S700 series switches are suited to the tasks
you've cited. For the vast majority of airplanes
flying, the use of relays is on a par with applications
shown in the Z-figures. On occasion, you may encounter
a system installation that calls for relays . . . an
example is illustrated here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/TooManyRelays.jpg
It's doubtful that whoever designed this system had
"simplicity" in mind. Flight system reliability for
so complex an array o relays leaves much to be desired.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 04:02 PM 10/21/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey guys,
>
>I'm at a complete loss to understand, and fix, my Altrak. I've got 70
>hours on my RV-4 now and so far have been unable to successfully
>troubleshoot the Altrak. once in stable flight I push the button and HOLD
>ON....it tries to do a loop everytime!
>
>I've changed the servo and the programmer/brain and even TruTrak is a t
>aloss now to try and help me figure it out. there is literally nothing
>else to change...except maybe the button/switch....or rewire it from scratch.
>
>I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions. On the positive side I'm getting
>pretty good at holding altitude manually.
>
>Ron
Can you send me a copy of the installation manual
(or tell me where it can be download)?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: OldBob Siegfried <oldbob@beechowners.com>
Good Morning Yamashiada, or Chopped Liver, or Kevin,
Or
Bill or Whomever,
Why not keep the discussion on the Aero Electric list.
Those of us who have absolutely no electrical
knowledge are puzzled by the problem.
Who knows, we MAY learn something that WILL help us in
our aeronautical endeavors.
Very Sincerely Interested,
Old Bob
--- Bill Boyd <sportav8r@gmail.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd"
> <sportav8r@gmail.com>
>
> Barry,
>
> You are welcome to email me direct with your theory
> on what, besides
> an alternator malfunction, will allow two batteries
> in 2 days to be
> sucked dry during operation of the vehicle. This
> has reached the
> point where it is of dubious aircraft electrical
> relevance and should
> be taken off-list.
>
> And if you'll call me "Bill" instead of "Kevin,"
> I'll resist the
> inexplicable urge to call you "George" or Paul" ;-)
>
> -Bill
>
> On 10/22/06, FLYaDIVE@aol.com <FLYaDIVE@aol.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/21/2006 7:48:22 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> > sportav8r@gmail.com writes:
> > . The call to come give him a jump start-came
> about dusk. We
> > drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in
> town, where it will
> > remain until a new alternator (one that makes
> current ;-) is
> > installed.
> > ============================================
> > Kevin:
> >
> > The problem is NOT the alternator!
> >
> > Your alternator is in PERFECT CONDITION, it is
> WORKING.
> >
> >
> > Barry
> > "Chop'd Liver"
> >
> > "Show them the first time, correct them the second
> time, kick them the third
> > time."
> > Yamashiada
> >
> >
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
> Web Forums!
>
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:57 AM 10/21/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/20/2006 8:33:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>sportav8r@gmail.com writes:
>Now, I know there is no way that a battery continually feeds current
>into an alternator to keep it going, else charging the battery from
>the alternator would be a losing proposition.
Alternators generally need a modicum of start-up voltage to
come alive. Once up and running, they'll continue to put
out useful energy within limits (1) hit them with a strong
inrush current and they may "stall" and (2) without a battery
across the b-lead output, the quality of delivered energy
is compromised with combinations of additional noise and/or
loss of voltage regulation stability.
> And I certianly hope
>that there is no way a dead battery is going to somehow take out my
>dual alternator Z-13/8 architecture, but I cannot reconcile that hope
>with what seems to have happened to my car electrical system here.
There's no way a battery or lack thereof will kill
a good alternator.
>Tell me I'm not crazy, and that it doesn't take a battery to keep an
>alternator alive once excited (the same battery that minutes before
>cranked the engine for starting), that the battery is only there for
>filtering the 3-phase rectified DC when in cruise mode, and I'll
>believe you. But I'll still wonder what happened to the car
>yesterday...
The troubleshooting problem is a transfer of energy
study. And many times, what appears to be "obvious"
is lacking in data and peripheral information to make
an accurate diagnosis. For example, I spent three days
this week working on a flickering light problem on a
$gazillion$ bizjet wherein there was a strong consensus
that adding some big fat capacitors to reduce the
intensity of a bus voltage perturbation would reduce
the apparent intensity of the flicker. Spent $700 of
the boss's money on some automotive super-caps (used
in those ear-pounding sound systems that are misguided
progeny are so fond of). Eureka! 1 Farad of capacity
across the 50A thumper did indeed reduce bus perturbations
from 4 volts pk-pk to 1 volt pk-pk. But the flickering
was WORSE!
Seems the eye was influenced more by duration than by
gross intensity when observing 25 mS wide variations
in light output. Even tho the intensity was reduced
by 75%, the width of the perturbation increased by
2x to 50 mS. Who wuda thunk it?
The point is that energy does not go wandering about
like a 4-year old in a toy store. It moves based on
predictable pathways and produces varying effects based
on how the energy is dissipated, measured or perceived.
>-Bill B
>
>==================================
>Bill:
>
>There are MANY new things happening to cars today. As soon as you
>mentioned HYUNDAI I knew what your problem was... IS.
>
>It is NOT solved yet. The new battery will keep the car going for a few
>more weeks but the problem MAY surely pop up again. The battery was
>border line due to the problem and did require replacing, maybe not
>immediately. Still the new battery is a move in the right direction.
>
>You did not mention the year and model of the Hyundai.
>
>When I said new things happening to cars; there is a different way of
>utilizing a car's charging system today. The alternator is still the same
>and the voltage regulator is still the same but with car computer systems
>and trying to squeeze more HP from a smaller engine there is a new
>twist. The computer takes the alternator TOTALLY out of the electrical
>system and it does this for more of a DOWN TIME on the duty cycle. An
>alternator uses between 2 to 5 HP during operation. By taking the
>alternator out of the system you return that HP so it can be sent to the
>wheels and use less gas. Now, not all computerized cars do this ... what
>year and model is yours?
Interesting. I spent about 10 minutes in a Google search
to see if anyone on the 'net has discussed this concept and
was unable to locate any articles that spoke of scheduling
the car's alternator output on-the-fly.
Can you point us to one or more sources for information on
this control philosophy?
>
>Also, newer cars with an alternator CAN run without a battery. NOT for a
>very long time ... It is know as the Get Home Mode. In the OLD days with
>Generators this was the NORM. But, just like in a plane's system a GOOD
>battery is required to let the alternator have an output. If the battery
>dies there is NO voltage for the alternators field ... ergo ... No
>alternator output. New cars are similar but utilize a large value
>capacitor to TRY to keep the alternator running.
Also interesting but new to me. The physics of capacitor
function suggest that having one on the output of an alternator
is a functional substitute for having a battery available . . .
hence the use of large capacitors on the output of the SD-8
for noise reduction. But once an alternator is 'on line' why
is there any need/value for having a capacitor support the
alternator's field circuit when the alternator is quite
capable of supporting its own field just as generators would
support their own fields.
> The "TC" Time Constant is slow so IF you shed load it will TRY to get
> you home. No, I did not design this system so I don't know any more about it.
>
>I have a Hyundai and I have had the same problem and here is a hit. What
>is it, that I bitch about on planes all the time, that always starts the
>same old deadhead thought patterns and emails? Well, that is exactly what
>is wrong with your car. Repair Time - 15 minutes.
Hmmmm . . . I'm lost. Are we talking about a bad capacitor,
alternator or battery? If a bad capacitor, are you suggesting
that failure of the capacitor causes the alternator to mis-behave
in a manner that prevents it from doing it's alternator-like
duties in keeping the battery charged and the lights on?
Can you offer more data on this?
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:27 AM 10/22/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 10/21/2006 9:48:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>lists@stevet.net writes:
>this is another good reason for
>Bob's advice to replace batteries at every annual
>
>===========================
>Is it REALLY you Bob that started this Wives Tail? I would say Old Wives
>Tail, but you are not that old yet.
Is is really you Barry who is personalizing this to
a matter of my age or judgement? Before you drag
the discussion down to this level, may I suggest
you review the archives on the topic and offer
us any new insights about the simple-ideas
that support the philosophy. If one or more
ideas is in error or have been mis-applied, we'd
all be grateful for your re-direction.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Permanent Magnet vs. Series Wound... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:41 AM 10/18/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>I am considering purchasing a hydraulic power pack for a landing
>application. The power pack comes in two type: Permanent Magnet and
>Series wound. I notice the series wound take more current for the same
>psi. What are the pros/cons of each type?
It's almost a toss-up. If you're system raises and lowers
gear based on reversal of pump, then a PM motor is harder
to reverse and uses less reliable contactors (dpdt). Further,
PM motors have higher inrush currents and are harder on
contactors and put larger perturbations onto the bus when
they're energized. No an issue for starters since they're used
before anything else is expected to be functioning.
Landing gear motors could be operated many times per flight
cycle (touch and goes) and during times when other electro-whizzies
would prefer not to be disturbed.
Series wound motors reverse by selecting one of two
windings (CW or CCW). They're nicely controlled by simple
SPST contactors and have lower inrush currents. My personal
favorite is still series wound.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Boots on Battery Contactor. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:06 AM 10/20/2006 +1000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne"
><jack.byrne@bigpond.com>
>
>Bob and Listers.
>
>With reference to the discussion that has been going on re this subject.
>
>My starter and battery contactor both came from B & C. The battery contactor
>has boots the starter contactor does not. Got them 12 months ago.
>
>I emailed B & C about the boots on the battery contactor and got the
>following reply.
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>The S701-1 and S701-2 are the same basic contactor. The coil is isolated
>from the case, therefore the case need not be grounded. Both coil leads are
>brought out to their respective #10 studs on the side of the cylinder. Note
>that the pre-wired S701-1 coil receives its power through the Red jumper
>from the battery post, and its ground through the Master Switch (which is
>connected to the other #10 stud).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Now, if I knew how the switches worked I would have been able to see that
>the wire from the Master switch was a GND wire and not a +12V wire.
>Which is different than the starter contactor, the wire from the start
>switch is +12V and the starter contactor gets its GND from the
>airframe.(Z13-8)
>
>So no need to grind the boots off the battery contactor
>
>Maybe this will clear it up.
Aha! I thought we were discussing the S702 STARTER contactor
that MUST find a coil connection through the mounting feet.
If the discussion is limited only to the battery and crossfeed
contactors, then yes . . . the boots are not an electrical issue
but it would still be interesting to know why they were added
after about 75 years of successful service sans boots.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder <Earl_Schroeder@juno.com>
Bob,
Here is the URL:
http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/AltrakVSInstallandUserGuide.pdf
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 04:02 PM 10/21/2006 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>>
>> I'm at a complete loss to understand, and fix, my Altrak. I've got 70
>> hours on my RV-4 now and so far have been unable to successfully
>> troubleshoot the Altrak. once in stable flight I push the button and
>> HOLD ON....it tries to do a loop everytime!
>>
>> I've changed the servo and the programmer/brain and even TruTrak is a
>> t aloss now to try and help me figure it out. there is literally
>> nothing else to change...except maybe the button/switch....or rewire
>> it from scratch.
>>
>> I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions. On the positive side I'm
>> getting pretty good at holding altitude manually.
>>
>> Ron
>
> Can you send me a copy of the installation manual
> (or tell me where it can be download)?
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:55 AM 10/21/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
>
>Thanks, Barry, Ernest,
>
>The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator.
>Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she
>looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding
>and the whole explanation.
>
>I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s
>loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer
>disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been
>excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field
>current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if
>true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a
>Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even
>corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no
>warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode.
>
>Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the
>Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I
>shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day,
>with VOM in hand. Bob...?
Excellent question and yes, alternators will run self excited
sans battery with limits as discussed in another post. It was
a recognition of those limits that prompted the e-bus philosophy.
Should the alternator become unavailable due to main contactor
failure and loss of the battery's stabilizing influence on alternator
performance, there was still an alternate means by which useful
electro-whizzies could be powered for a sweat-free continuation
of flight to a friendly destination.
One might still argue about gross battery reliability but I'm
aware of no battery failures in an RG (or flooded battery)
that could not have been mitigated by proper installation,
operation and good PM whether one chooses to monitor battery
capacity or replace-every-year.
Z-13/8 with the self excitation feature adds yet another
layer of confidence for sweat-free flying irrespective of
the loss of any major system component.
The discussion about the automotive system is germane to
our deliberations but has yet to offer data from which a
considered conclusion may be drawn. Data like schematics,
measurements (is the battery seeing a high level of discharge
while the key is off and all accessories shut down?), etc.
The honorable Albert Einstein once opined, "Most of the
fundamental ideas of science are essentially simple, and
may, as a rule, be expressed in a language comprehensible
to everyone."
. . . and Lord Kelvin offered this, "When you can measure
what you are speaking about and express it in numbers,
you know something about it."
The the path to understanding will not advance in useful
ways without embracing these two philosophies and then
doing the homework necessary to get the data.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:38 AM 10/22/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder
><Earl_Schroeder@juno.com>
>
>Bob,
>Here is the URL:
>http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/AltrakVSInstallandUserGuide.pdf
Thanks. I'll study this but later today. We're having a gather'n o' the
clan at Aunt
Judy's this afternoon and I'm doing some of the cooking. Need to go fire
up the
oven.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:44 PM 10/21/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
>
>Follow-up:
>
>My son took the car this morning while I was out flying around, and
>before I could check the charging system with a DVM to verify
>alternator output. The ensuing events restored my confidence in the
>laws of physics and what understanding I thought I had in how
>alternators work (smart regulators being another story, I will
>concede). The call to come give him a jump start-came about dusk. We
>drove the car a few blocks to the repair garage in town, where it will
>remain until a new alternator (one that makes current ;-) is
>installed.
>
>I hate to flog a new battery into deep discharge the first day I own
>it, but at least this time it happened near home, and just as I
>thought it would/should with an alternator that almost had to be
>inoperative, given the scenario yesterday. Restores my faith in my
>understanding of electrical systems, but not in shade tree mechanics.
>
>Probably nothing to see here, folks... just move along... nothing to see
>here...
>
>Sorry to clog list bandwidth with a problem like this, but the guy
>really had me doubting my basic understanding of alternators and
>therefore the integrity of my OBAM charging system as well.
Bill,
If you can keep the core and send it to me, I'll reimburse
your shipping and core value expenses. I'd like to put the
carcass under the oscilloscope as it were . . .
Bob . . .
>-Bill B
>
>On 10/21/06, Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com> wrote:
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>>
>>On 21 Oct 2006, at 08:55, Bill Boyd wrote:
>>
>> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd"
>> > <sportav8r@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Thanks, Barry, Ernest,
>> >
>> > The car is 99 Sonata, on its second engine but first alternator.
>> > Wife reports the pos battery terminal was very corroded when she
>> > looked under the hood before the repair. Perhaps a sigificant finding
>> > and the whole explanation.
>> >
>> > I still struggle to understand how an alternator can carry ship;'s
>> > loads, and recharge the battery after cranking, if the computer
>> > disconnects it in cruise, as well as how an alternator that has been
>> > excited and spun up, making power, can fail to maintain its own field
>> > current even in the absence of a battery. This characterisitc, if
>> > true, is an annoyance in a car; it might be an Achilles heel in a
>> > Z-architecture electrical system, if it means that a dead or even
>> > corroded battery could take out battery and alternator with a most no
>> > warning. I really want to understand this potential failure mode.
>> >
>> > Not meaning to offend anyone, I hope the designer of the
>> > Z-architectures will himself weigh in and elucidate me. Meanwhile, I
>> > shall pop the hood and inspect the repairs myself in the light of day,
>> > with VOM in hand. Bob...?
>>
>>It would be interesting to know where the field current comes from,
>>and where the various automotive systems are getting their power
>>(i.e. lights, fuel pumps, EFI, etc).
>>
>>If the "smart" voltage regulator actually shuts the alternator down
>>during some periods, and the alternator had become electrically
>>disconnected from the battery due to corrosion on the battery post,
>>and the field current was getting its power from the alternator
>>output, then it is plausible that there would be no way to start the
>>alternator back up again.
>>
>>But, how were the other systems able to get the power they needed?
>>Will the other systems run at lower voltages than is required to
>>start the alternator back up again?
>>
>>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>>Ottawa, Canada
>>http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark an
explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent in
the air and some sparks.
However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't
they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's no
belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to generate
static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth?
Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an
RV-sized paint booth?
--
Tom S., RV-6A
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Tom,
If you were talking hi VOC paints, the fans would have to be looked at
very closely. In the case of AFS paints, there is no fire hazard. On
the question of fan capacity, I found two 20 x 20 inch household fans
more than adequate. You can put furnace filters in front of them that
have a #600 rating by 3M that will stop any color from going to the
other side. How much capacity depends largely on the volume of spray
and how much of the plane you intend to spray at one time. I'm painting
in the basic disassembed state, so the capacity only requires the
filters get changed out 5 or 6 times during the whole operation. If you
were to paint the whole plane at one time, I'd think you'd need 4 fans
going all at the same time and 8 good filters at the inlet end, tho I'd
not recommend trying such a large scope of painting if you're new to the
task. It's a lot different than doing a car.
I have a painting page if you're interested in an inside booth design.
http://www.macsmachine.com/html/paint.htm
Regards,
Larry McFarland - 601HDS at 85 hours and just about done painting.
sarg314 wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
> An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark
> an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent
> in the air and some sparks.
> However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't
> they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's
> no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to
> generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a
> paint booth?
>
> Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an
> RV-sized paint booth?
>
> --
> Tom S., RV-6A
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: automotive alternator question - OT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
Wait - there's more! You wanted data, so I went out and got you some.
Hauled my son and my DVM out to the car repair place and jump-started
it for some measurements...
Battery reads 14.3 v after jump-starting. Wait- it's dropping, all
the way to the low 12's. Now it's back up to 14.3, but just for a
moment or two. Now it's dropping all the way to 8 volts. Now back to
14.3 again. Every time the alternator comes alive I hear a slight
chirp from the serpentine belt just like when an A/C compressor kicks
in, but without the clack of the magnetic clutch.
Removal of battery terminal connection when the battery voltage is in
the 12 volt range kills the engine cold.
Prolonged observation of the battery voltage at idle and at various
revving rpm's and with and without headlight loads convinced me there
was no discernible pattern to the alternator coming back online- just
random.
Maybe Barry's contentions (excuse pun) are somewhat correct about a
fancy regulator in there somewhere, a quasi-intelligent (dumb-ass in
this case ;-) circuit.
Not sure there will be a carcass to ship you, Bob. Sorry I didn't
have a scope to look at waveforms and make a guess about diode health.
Google is not showing me anything about this behavior in Hyundais,
but my search technique may need refinement.
I have at least some info to pass along to the repeir guys tomorrow
morning, but I can;'t help but think, Now what?! I'd like to hard
wire the alternator to the battery and ignition switch like an
intelligent designer, but I fear the possible mayhem that might wreak
with the onboard computer and idiot light system. Not liking my
alternatives much at this point. Bad on Hyundai for a weak design, I
think.
-Bill B
> Bill,
>
> If you can keep the core and send it to me, I'll reimburse
> your shipping and core value expenses. I'd like to put the
> carcass under the oscilloscope as it were . . .
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
LarryMcFarland wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>
> Tom,
> If you were talking hi VOC paints, the fans would have to be looked at
> very closely. In the case of AFS paints, there is no fire hazard.
Larry:
I know what a VOC is, but what's an AFS paint?
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
Tom,
I took my "box fans'' apart and found that they were brushless. Thus,
there should not be a concern about igniting solvent vapors.
Richard Dudley
sarg314 wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
> An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark
> an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent
> in the air and some sparks.
> However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't
> they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's
> no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to
> generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a
> paint booth?
>
> Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an
> RV-sized paint booth?
>
> --
> Tom S., RV-6A
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
AFS paint is a water based polyurethane paint. See
http://www.stewartshangar21.aero/AFS.htm Click on "Stewart Systems" to
the left of the page.
Good paint, no hazardous fumes.
Dick Tasker
sarg314 wrote:
> Larry:
> I know what a VOC is, but what's an AFS paint?
--
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that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
While you are correct about the brushless aspect, there can still be a
concern about igniting solvent vapors. If some part of the motor
reaches the flash temperature of the vapor in question, you can ignite
the vapor. Flammable vapors do NOT always need an open flame or spark
to ignite! Be careful!
Dick Tasker
Richard Dudley wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Dudley
> <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
>
> Tom,
> I took my "box fans'' apart and found that they were brushless. Thus,
> there should not be a concern about igniting solvent vapors.
> Richard Dudley
>
> sarg314 wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>>
>> An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark
>> an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable
>> solvent in the air and some sparks.
>> However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't
>> they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's
>> no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to
>> generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a
>> paint booth?
>>
>> Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for
>> an RV-sized paint booth?
>>
>> --
>> Tom S., RV-6A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
--
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland <larry@macsmachine.com>
Tom,
Aircraft Finishing Systems has a water thinned urethane paint that is
popular among the homebuilt aircraft community. It was
designed to satisfy EPA requirements, is nearly odor free, fireproof and
has a better safety record than regular paints.
http://www.stewartshangar21.aero/AFS.htm
Larry McFarland
sarg314 wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
> LarryMcFarland wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland
>> <larry@macsmachine.com>
>>
>> Tom,
>> If you were talking hi VOC paints, the fans would have to be looked
>> at very closely. In the case of AFS paints, there is no fire hazard.
>
>
> Larry:
> I know what a VOC is, but what's an AFS paint?
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello Tom
"So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a paint booth? Also, Does
any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an RV-sized
paint booth?"
I can tell you what I am doing, perhaps it will help.
I sewed up a 10 foot long, 8 foot wide and 6.5 foot tall paint booth made
out of PVC clear plastic on the top and sides, and thick Visqueen on the
bottom.
On the small door of our rented hangar, I mounted an attic fan, one of
those with mushroom dome. Sorry i don't know CFM, got it from a neighbor
and it was new. If you took a look at Home Depot offerings, and went half
way between normal stocked offerings, you would be pretty close. Then I
made a 1x2" frame around it that is the precise size of furnace filters,
think they are 24 x 30 or 24 x32, just stock Home Depot stock. I have
Velcro attached to the 1x2s and have an opening in the tent that precise
size with velcro on it.
The fan is brushless AC and had a thermostat, I bypassed thermostat.
Pretty unscientific, but I had concerns of explosion, and did a bit of
fooling trying to get some propane to get set off by fan. I have a
reasonable amount of experience building Hot Air balloon burners, and
making a pilot light that is reasonable easy to light, and will not very
easily get blown out has given a pretty good insight on what and how to
set off a mixture. Anyway I was unsuccessful to get it to set off an
explosive mixture. My plastic creating static is of more concern. Even if
it did get set off by motor, I put an expanded metal screen over hole in
door (also critter protection) that in conjunction with filter, I am
pretty confident it would act as a flame arrestor if the fan did in fact
set off a mixture.
OK back to design, I have three 10 foot aluminium tubes supported by
florescent fixture large link chains. Now the entire side opposite the
exit is velcroed in place, I figured if it works well, which it does I can
add a section to house the entire large parts of my Europa.
The end has a 7 foot wide, 6 foot high piece of quilt (or pillow) style
white woven fill. There are 2 densities sold at most fabric stores, I used
the heavier. I sewed up a transition from this huge size "Pseudo Filter"
to a 30" round that I put over my 30" floor stand 3 speed Home Depot fan.
I need to keep it on low, and choke off ~ 1/2 of the wire mesh of the 30"
fan or else it will blow out the seams with way too much pressure. This
area of fan is under suction, so i just put a piece of visqueen to act as
a choke, it stays put till fan is turned off.
The center aluminium thin tubes can hold up perhaps 25 pounds with no
pressure inside, and probably a hundred with pressure.
Works great, rolls up into a 10 foot high Q-Tip bout a foot in diameter
when not in use.
If you keep mixture too lean, it will not ignite. It takes not much time
to rid tent of fumes.
I have far more concern, not of attic fan, or static, but I put 2 dual 500
watt quartz halogen floor stand Home depot lights inside the tent with me.
If I were to turn around and spray paint direct into the lamps, think
would be a nice blowtorchin going on or if tent was filled, worst.
If you were to spill solvent on floor, and lamp fell onto it same effect.
I am comfortable enough with my setup. Have always another person around,
and a smother the painter on fire blanket around.
Side note, we built a 10 foot by 20 foot tent to build plane in. To heat,
we use a 150,000 kerosene heater. It is a torpedo design but uses a Becket
burner. To get clean air into tent, made a heat exchanger. We use a
2000CFM squirrel cage blower to pull fresh air from outside through a thin
wall aluminium expandable hose, through a electrostatic filter, then it is
wound inside a stove pipe connected to heater. Works great.
Anyway as far as painting, if it is a bit cold inside hangar, I can plumb
this clean heat to 30" floor stand intake, warms things right up.
BTW since there is so much surface area of my large filter, airspeed is
very slow through most of tent.
Ron Parigoris
Message 26
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| Subject: | EFIS D-10 Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
I know this should go to Dynon but I have a question on mounting the remote
compass module. The instructions say to mount this module as close to the
orientation of the D-10 unit as possible. Given that on an RV-6 the
instrument panel is tilted almost 10 degrees forward, wouldn't it make more
sense and be more accurate to mount it on the longeron line (which happens
to be the horizontal line of flight in cruise)? Why does Dynon say to mount
the compass at the same angle of tilt? Have you RV-6 drivers who've used
the remote Dynon compass mounted it with the tilt? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Wiring and wiring.
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