---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/23/06: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:13 AM - Re: EFIS D-10 Question (Kevin Horton) 2. 06:03 AM - alternator autopsy (Bill Boyd) 3. 06:03 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:15 AM - Re: explosion proof fans (Ernest Christley) 5. 06:57 AM - Re: automotive alternator question - OT (Bill Boyd) 6. 07:15 AM - Re: alternator autopsy (Ernest Christley) 7. 07:43 AM - Re: explosion proof fans (Eric M. Jones) 8. 09:18 AM - Re: EFIS D-10 Question (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 9. 09:25 AM - Re: alternator autopsy (flyadive@aol.com) 10. 11:14 AM - Re: alternator autopsy (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 11:20 AM - Re: alternator autopsy (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 11:45 AM - antenna interference () 13. 12:18 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (6440 Auto Parts) 14. 12:25 PM - Re: antenna interference (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 01:03 PM - Navy electronics education course (ryan42) 16. 01:24 PM - Re: Re: explosion proof fans (LarryMcFarland) 17. 01:49 PM - Re: Avionics-List: antenna interference (Doug McNutt) 18. 02:03 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (Bill Boyd) 19. 02:31 PM - Re: Navy electronics education course (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 03:07 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (flyadive@aol.com) 21. 03:08 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (flyadive@aol.com) 22. 03:35 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (Kingsley Hurst) 23. 05:09 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (Steve Thomas) 24. 06:20 PM - Re: antenna interference (Charlie England) 25. 06:28 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 07:25 PM - Cellphones in the air (Dave N6030X) 27. 07:38 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 28. 07:55 PM - Re: Cellphones in the air (David M.) 29. 08:15 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (Steve) 30. 08:35 PM - Re: Cellphones in the air (Bill Boyd) 31. 09:34 PM - Re: alternator autopsy (Terry Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:22 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS D-10 Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 23 Oct 2006, at 24:47, DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > I know this should go to Dynon but I have a question on mounting > the remote > compass module. The instructions say to mount this module as close > to the > orientation of the D-10 unit as possible. Given that on an RV-6 the > instrument panel is tilted almost 10 degrees forward, wouldn't it > make more > sense and be more accurate to mount it on the longeron line (which > happens > to be the horizontal line of flight in cruise)? Why does Dynon say > to mount > the compass at the same angle of tilt? Have you RV-6 drivers > who've used > the remote Dynon compass mounted it with the tilt? Thanks. The remote compass module works by measuring the components of the magnetic field in three dimensions. Then, they use the aircraft attitude to calculate the direction of magnetic north. The calculation that the EFIS does assumes that the remote compass module is at the same attitude as the EFIS. If it is not, the heading accuracy will be reduced. See: http://dynonavionics.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1145885596 Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:31 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" Bob: I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. I asked about the possibility of an off-site regulator function in the car's computer, and he said as far as he knew, only Dodge has tried that stunt. We will soon find out if he's right. I figure he's going to want the old alternator for a core at the auto parts place, but perhaps we could gut the regulator out first, if that would be of any help to you? Tell me what you're thinking and I'll try to accomodate. Maybe I can pay the core charge up front and recoup it later when you've returned everything. Thanks for all your help with airplanes and things electric. -Bill B ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: automotive alternator question - OT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:08 PM 10/22/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" > >Wait - there's more! You wanted data, so I went out and got you some. >Hauled my son and my DVM out to the car repair place and jump-started >it for some measurements... > >Battery reads 14.3 v after jump-starting. Wait- it's dropping, all >the way to the low 12's. Now it's back up to 14.3, but just for a >moment or two. Now it's dropping all the way to 8 volts. Now back to >14.3 again. Every time the alternator comes alive I hear a slight >chirp from the serpentine belt just like when an A/C compressor kicks >in, but without the clack of the magnetic clutch. > >Removal of battery terminal connection when the battery voltage is in >the 12 volt range kills the engine cold. > >Prolonged observation of the battery voltage at idle and at various >revving rpm's and with and without headlight loads convinced me there >was no discernible pattern to the alternator coming back online- just >random. Interesting! It would be useful to measure voltages on small wires going into the back of the alternator to see if there is what appears to be a "command" signal that is turning the alternator ON/OFF . . . or whether the alternator itself is simply intermittent. Of course, the maintenance manuals SHOULD tell us about these things but that's a lot to hope for. I have a half dozen maintenance manuals on my shelves for the various cars I've owned. Electrically, these things are dismal teaching tools. >Not sure there will be a carcass to ship you, Bob. Sorry I didn't >have a scope to look at waveforms and make a guess about diode health. >Google is not showing me anything about this behavior in Hyundais, >but my search technique may need refinement. > >I have at least some info to pass along to the repeir guys tomorrow >morning, but I can;'t help but think, Now what?! I'd like to hard >wire the alternator to the battery and ignition switch like an >intelligent designer, but I fear the possible mayhem that might wreak >with the onboard computer and idiot light system. Not liking my >alternatives much at this point. Bad on Hyundai for a weak design, I >think. Could be. Could be a flaky alternator. It will be interesting to see how much the mechanic knows about it . . . or perhaps he'll just replace parts until the problem goes away. Good luck! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:41 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: explosion proof fans --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley sarg314 wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 > > An exhaust fan on a home made paint booth has the potential to spark > an explosion if you get the right mixture range of a flammable solvent > in the air and some sparks. > However, virtually all consumer fans use brushless AC motors (don't > they?). And, with the fan mounted right on the motor shaft, there's > no belt to generate static (though I guess there are other ways to > generate static). So, is such a fan suitable to use to exhaust a > paint booth? > > Also, Does any one have any idea of what fan capacity is needed for an > RV-sized paint booth? I used a rather large computer fan, about an 8" square. There several ways to attack the problem. -use a paint system that doesn't burn -push a lot of air through the booth to move the VOC out -don't use as much paint so that the VOCs have time to move Some people have given you recommendations for VOCless paints. I avoided these. I heard unfounded rumours that they don't hold up (unfounded rumours that I'm now propogating without foundation). Others have given you pointers to building a paint booth that will flow more than sufficient air to move the VOCs out before they build to explosive concentrations, but this required building more support "stuff" than I wanted to invest in. The route I chose was the $50 Harbor Freight HVLP sprayer. This thing is pathetic with house paint. By the time you get the paint thin enough to go through the sprayer, it is to thin to cover. But that is just not so with PolySpray or PolyTone. The sprayer is amazing with this thin paint. So far, I've painted my belly and control surface fabrics, as well as a frieds Dart ultralight. I asked our builder's group for estimates on how much paint to buy before starting, and found myself asking, "Where did they put all that paint?" when I was done. The true story was told by how much paint was NOT on the booth walls and floor. Even the exhaust fan only had a slight coloration from the paint. Simply put, the sprayer puts the paint on the airplane instead of making a mist. Considering how poor a painter I am, and how much I hate it, the finish job is nothing short of stunning. Less paint sprayed means less VOCs, means smaller airflow requirements. Less paint sprayed also means less $70/gal paint bought, but we're building airplanes here, so nobody really cares about that, do they? -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:11 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: automotive alternator question - OT --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" Access to the small wires would be difficult, given the tightly packed engine compartment and the fact that they're all housed in connectors and wrapped tightly in harness sheathing, nevertheless, I think you're right about the replace-parts-until-it's-fixed approach. I sense we're headed down that road. Will await your reply to me later post about the core carcass, etc. Tnx, Bob. -Bill B. > Interesting! It would be useful to measure voltages on small > wires going into the back of the alternator to see if there > is what appears to be a "command" signal that is turning the > alternator ON/OFF . . . or whether the alternator itself is > simply intermittent. > > Of course, the maintenance manuals SHOULD tell us about these > things but that's a lot to hope for. I have a half dozen maintenance > manuals on my shelves for the various cars I've owned. Electrically, > these things are dismal teaching tools. > > > Could be. Could be a flaky alternator. It will be interesting > to see how much the mechanic knows about it . . . or perhaps > he'll just replace parts until the problem goes away. Good > luck! > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:50 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley Bill Boyd wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" > > > Bob: > > I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the > Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ----===<{{(oQo)}}>===---- Dyke Delta Builder | o| d |o http://ernest.isa-geek.org | ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans From: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" One of the wonders of internet search engines is what you CAN'T find. This is frequently as valuable as what you CAN find. In the case of paint booth explosions, there doesn't seem much to find--even with the guys with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth and a barrel of parts solvent at the elbow. The long and short of it is --Be careful, but don't be crazy about it. Pilots should be able to evaluate risk based on understanding and experience in ALL areas of their life. OT: Great old Car Talk tale about a guy who used a vacuum cleaner to suck the dirt out of his spark plug wells after taking out the plugs. Question: "How long was it before his widow remarried?" -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69666#69666 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:18:14 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: EFIS D-10 Question Greetings, Dean... I've mounted them on two Rv6a's. One in the tail, but not fun to crawl back there to secure wires. On the other, I built a shelf just behind the baggage compartment which was pretty easy. Just used an angle finder to match the panel angle. At the time I wondered if this method would be accurate enough, but the D-100 performs flawlessly, so guess it was. BTW, Dynon wants the same orientation in all 3 axis... Again, easy to do with above method. Regards, Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR Time: 09:50:24 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS D-10 Question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" I know this should go to Dynon but I have a question on mounting the remote compass module. The instructions say to mount this module as close to the orientation of the D-10 unit as possible. Given that on an RV-6 the instrument panel is tilted almost 10 degrees forward, wouldn't it make more sense and be more accurate to mount it on the longeron line (which happens to be the horizontal line of flight in cruise)? Why does Dynon say to mount the compass at the same angle of tilt? Have you RV-6 drivers who've used the remote Dynon compass mounted it with the tilt? Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Wiring and wiring. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy From: flyadive@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: echristley@nc.rr.com Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 10:14 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley Bill Boyd wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" > > > Bob: > > I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the > Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. -- ,|"|"|, Ernest Christley | ======================================= NOPE! Sorry Guys, that is NOT the problem. I said it before, don't you remember ... What I gripe about ALL the time when it comes to planes, it is the same problem with Hyundia ... You are only throwing good money after bad ... Believe me .. I went through this problem for TWO MONTHS .. YUP! I was stupid, I did not listen to my own advice. Barry ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:19 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:01 AM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" > >Bob: > >I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. >I asked about the possibility of an off-site regulator function in the >car's computer, and he said as far as he knew, only Dodge has tried >that stunt. We will soon find out if he's right. > >I figure he's going to want the old alternator for a core at the auto >parts place, but perhaps we could gut the regulator out first, if that >would be of any help to you? Tell me what you're thinking and I'll >try to accomodate. Maybe I can pay the core charge up front and >recoup it later when you've returned everything. Unless this is a platinum plated alternator, the core value is typically 15 to 25 dollars. He can just keep the core and add the core value to your bill. If it's more than $50, I'll pass but up to that amount is okay with me. >Thanks for all your help with airplanes and things electric. My pleasure sir . . . wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:14 AM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley > > >Bill Boyd wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" >> >>Bob: >> >>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. > > >I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine stops rotating. > A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire would be expected. The external intermittent in an always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:24 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: antenna interference --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 10/23/2006 Hello Bob Nuckolls and other antenna experts, Some time ago a fellow builder installed an Advanced Aircraft Electronics comm antenna in the vertical stab of his composite (fiberglass) airplane. The antenna is a straight one piece dipole with balun in center. The reception was tested with a radio and found to be excellent. In attaching the rudder, a full length aluminum piano style hinge was installed. This is one of the builder's modifications to the original plans that called for separate short segments of aluminum piano type hinge for the rudder. When testing the reception again with the same transmitter the reception was practically nonexistent. The builder would like to retain use of the antenna and come up with a (nearly continuous) hinge solution that will permit adequate transmission and reception. Various solutions have been proposed: 1) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of plastic. (Guden makes them). 2) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber. http://www.carbinge.com/index.html 3) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than full length segments. 4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than full length segments. 5) Abandon the continuous hinge concept and install separate short segments of metal hinge as the plans call for. We would appreciate your inputs and advice. Thanks. OC ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:19 PM PST US From: "6440 Auto Parts" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "6440 Auto Parts" Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I think Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days depend on the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too complicated. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:14 AM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley >> >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" >>> >>> >>>Bob: >>> >>>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. >> >> >>I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >>the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >>causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >>behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >>doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. > > > What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator > today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine > stops rotating. > >> A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. > > Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in > a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire > would be expected. The external intermittent in an > always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . > mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: antenna interference --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:41 PM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >10/23/2006 > >Hello Bob Nuckolls and other antenna experts, > >Some time ago a fellow builder installed an Advanced Aircraft Electronics >comm antenna in >the vertical stab of his composite (fiberglass) airplane. The antenna is >a straight one piece dipole with balun in center. > >The reception was tested with a radio and found to be excellent. In >attaching the rudder, a full length aluminum piano style hinge was >installed. This is one of the builder's modifications to the original >plans that called for separate short segments of aluminum piano type hinge >for the rudder. > >When testing the reception again with the same transmitter the reception >was practically nonexistent. > >The builder would like to retain use of the antenna and come up with a >(nearly continuous) hinge solution that will permit adequate transmission >and reception. Various solutions have been proposed: Hmmmm . . . "adequate" is the operative word here. Without laboratory data on the effects of current configuration and any hypothesized solutions will be hip-shots . . . >1) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of plastic. (Guden makes them). As a structural part of the airplane? >2) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber. > >http://www.carbinge.com/index.html I presume the rest of the structure is carbon fiber also. This solution is relatively attractive but know that carbon fiber while not an excellent conductor . . . it's also very unfriendly to RF propagation. At least the hinge material would not be any worse than structural components around it >3) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of >carbon fiber, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter >than full length segments. Cutting a carbon fiber hinge would produce minimal benefit once the shift from aluminum to carbon fiber is made. >4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of >aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than >full length segments. This works . . . when driving past AM station towers (tower itself is the antenna) one observes that guy wires are broken up into short segments by strain insulators. The rule of thumb is that a parasitic conductor's length should not exceed 1/10th wavelength at frequency of interest. In the case of VHF Comm, about .2 meters or 8 inches in length or shorter. >5) Abandon the continuous hinge concept and install separate short >segments of metal hinge as the plans call for. That works too . . . but probably no better than segmented hinges of other materials. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:03:58 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Navy electronics education course From: "ryan42" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "ryan42" I was browsing around looking for the Navy course mentioned on the site and in the forums, and I found another location online at: http://www.tscm.com/reference.html down the page a bit named, NEETS Manuals on Basic Electronics -Ryan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=69745#69745 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:21 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: LarryMcFarland I agree, An explosive atmosphere has to be just right sometimes. I remember working after school in Smokeys body shop sanding cars. Hed paint a car each day, usually with lacquer at that time. The open furnace setting on the floor would heat that old block building and Smokey would have a handkerchief and a cigarette in the left hand while spraying with the right. The atmosphere was positively thick, and hed rush out coughing, take a drag from the cigarette, curse the cigarette and then put the hanky over his face and run back in to continue. I doubt Smokey is around any more, but his was not the way to set up painting. We had a multi-$M flash fire in an automated spray booth at International Harvester some years later that nearly killed a lady foreman. A small electric spark ignited a leaking thinner hose that flushed out the electrostatic spray nozzles. Neither of these gained any traction in the newspapers, but there is good reason to exercise caution, not in a casual way, but with positive thought and deliberate planning. I paint with AFS paints because there is no fire hazard, little odor and the distilled water as thinner evaporates the same as VOC thinners. Durability is determined by how well you wash, etch and clean before priming. If you do it right, the primer is positively as tough as any other. If you do it wrong, Im sure it would peel the same as the other paints. My Saturn is painted with a water-thinned paint, as are some commercial jet aircraft. Respectfully, Larry McFarland do not archive Eric M. Jones wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >One of the wonders of internet search engines is what you CAN'T find. This is frequently as valuable as what you CAN find. > > >-------- >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge, MA 01550 >(508) 764-2072 >emjones@charter.net > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:35 PM PST US From: Doug McNutt Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics-List: antenna interference --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Doug McNutt At 14:41 -0400 10/23/06, wrote: >4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out of aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into shorter than full length segments. It might be sufficient to cut it once only a few inches away from the center. It might also be enough to cut just the rod into two pieces with an insulator between them You might also try bonding both sides of the hinge to airframe ground. Well. . . that doesn't mean connecting it to the fiberglass. The idea is to move the resonance to longer wavelengths by making the hinge electrically longer as opposed to cutting it to make it shorter. And the # 10 thought. . . . Remove the dipole antenna and put a BNC connector on the hinge. -- --> If it's not on fire it's a software problem. <-- ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:16 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" The $50 figure is my own experience this spring when I bought an IR alternator for the RV long before I pulled the Van's Honda 35A unit to make the swap. I was charged 50 bucks by the Advance Auto store and got it all back when I returned the core several months later. (never mind it was a Mitsubishi alternator I bought and a Honda core I gave them back). Since the alternator has 175,000 miles on it, I'm not crying over its replacement even if it's not the central fault in the scenario. It's high-time and due for a rebuild, in my book. The engine was replaced with a low-time pull about two years ago, hence it has about 60k on it. The computer I'm not sure about, but probably was original to the chassis. -BB On 10/23/06, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 09:01 AM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" > > > >Bob: > > > >I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the > >Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. > >I asked about the possibility of an off-site regulator function in the > >car's computer, and he said as far as he knew, only Dodge has tried > >that stunt. We will soon find out if he's right. > > > >I figure he's going to want the old alternator for a core at the auto > >parts place, but perhaps we could gut the regulator out first, if that > >would be of any help to you? Tell me what you're thinking and I'll > >try to accomodate. Maybe I can pay the core charge up front and > >recoup it later when you've returned everything. > > Unless this is a platinum plated alternator, the > core value is typically 15 to 25 dollars. He > can just keep the core and add the core value to > your bill. > > If it's more than $50, I'll pass but up to that > amount is okay with me. > > >Thanks for all your help with airplanes and things electric. > > My pleasure sir . . . wouldn't do it if it wasn't > fun. > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Navy electronics education course --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:02 PM 10/23/2006 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "ryan42" > >I was browsing around looking for the Navy course mentioned on the site >and in the forums, and I found another location online at: > >http://www.tscm.com/reference.html > >down the page a bit named, NEETS Manuals on Basic Electronics > >-Ryan Interesting find. Thanks! These are later issues of the courses I've carried on the data-cd for several years. They're similar to the texts I taught from at Great Lakes many moons ago. This same site has some other interesting publications as well. I've downloaded a number of useful items for my library. Good hunting! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy From: flyadive@aol.com Hi Randy: I did not say it was the brain box, someone else said that .. NOPE not that .. MUCH simpler than that. Barry -----Original Message----- From: sales@6440autoparts.com Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 3:11 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "6440 Auto Parts" Could be the chassi brain box causing a problem also. I think Barry may be right about that. A lot of automobiles these days depend on the brian box to tell it when to charge. Yep they are too complicated. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:14 AM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley >> >> >>Bill Boyd wrote: >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" >>> >>> >>>Bob: >>> >>>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. >> >> >>I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >>the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >>causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >>behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >>doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. > > > What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator > today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine > stops rotating. > >> A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. > > Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in > a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire > would be expected. The external intermittent in an > always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . > mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . > > Bob . . . > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy From: flyadive@aol.com Over Engineering again, I see. NOPE! -----Original Message----- From: nuckollsr@cox.net Sent: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 2:19 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:14 AM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ernest Christley > > >Bill Boyd wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" >> >>Bob: >> >>I just talked to my local mechanic. He feels sure that replacing the >>Hyundai's IR alternator will cure the problem I've described to him. > > >I agree with the mechanic. It will fix the problem, because when he puts >the new alternator in, he will tighten the loose connection that is >causing the intermittent failure. The problem you describe is classic >behaviour for a loose connection. Of course, I guess the loose connection >doesn't necessarily have to be external to the alternator. What we think we know about the generic automotive alternator today is that once turned on, they stay on until the engine stops rotating. > A broken internal wire would create the same havoc. Yup . . . and if the intermittent connection were in a low-current, control-function then no sparks or fire would be expected. The external intermittent in an always-ON alternator would have to be in the b-lead . . mucho heating, sparks and maybe fire. Is a puzzlement . . . Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:20 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy Barry, Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. With respect Kingsley in Oz do not archive > NOPE! Sorry Guys, that is NOT the problem. I said it before, don't you remember ... What I gripe about ALL the time when it comes to planes, it is the same problem with Hyundia ... You are only throwing good money after bad ... Believe me .. I went through this problem for TWO MONTHS .. YUP! I was stupid, I did not listen to my own advice. Barry ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:25 PM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy Has anyone checked the engine ground strap? Best Regards, Steve Thomas ____________________________________________________________________ On Oct 23, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Kingsley Hurst wrote: > Barry, > > Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? > > Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. > > With respect > > Kingsley in Oz > > do not archive > > > NOPE! > > Sorry Guys, that is NOT the problem. I said it before, don't you > remember ... What I gripe about ALL the time when it comes to > planes, it is the same problem with Hyundia ... > > You are only throwing good money after bad ... Believe me .. I went > through this problem for TWO MONTHS .. YUP! I was stupid, I did > not listen to my own advice. > > Barry > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:51 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: antenna interference --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 02:41 PM 10/23/2006 -0400, you wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >> 10/23/2006 >> >> Hello Bob Nuckolls and other antenna experts, >> >> Some time ago a fellow builder installed an Advanced Aircraft >> Electronics comm antenna in >> the vertical stab of his composite (fiberglass) airplane. The >> antenna is a straight one piece dipole with balun in center. >> >> The reception was tested with a radio and found to be excellent. In >> attaching the rudder, a full length aluminum piano style hinge was >> installed. This is one of the builder's modifications to the original >> plans that called for separate short segments of aluminum piano type >> hinge for the rudder. >> >> When testing the reception again with the same transmitter the >> reception was practically nonexistent. >> >> The builder would like to retain use of the antenna and come up with >> a (nearly continuous) hinge solution that will permit adequate >> transmission and reception. Various solutions have been proposed: > > > Hmmmm . . . "adequate" is the operative word here. Without > laboratory data on the effects of current configuration and > any hypothesized solutions will be hip-shots . . . > > >> 1) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of plastic. (Guden >> makes them). > > > As a structural part of the airplane? > > >> 2) Use a continuous piano type hinge made out of carbon fiber. >> >> http://www.carbinge.com/index.html > > > I presume the rest of the structure is carbon fiber also. This > solution is relatively attractive but know that carbon fiber > while not an excellent conductor . . . it's also very unfriendly > to RF propagation. At least the hinge material would not be any > worse than structural components around it > > >> 3) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out >> of carbon fiber, but cut it a number of times during its length into >> shorter than full length segments. > > > Cutting a carbon fiber hinge would produce minimal > benefit once the shift from aluminum to carbon fiber is made. > > >> 4) Use a basically continuous full length piano type hinge made out >> of aluminum, but cut it a number of times during its length into >> shorter than full length segments. > > > This works . . . when driving past AM station towers > (tower itself is the antenna) one observes that guy wires > are broken up into short segments by strain insulators. > The rule of thumb is that a parasitic conductor's length > should not exceed 1/10th wavelength at frequency of interest. > In the case of VHF Comm, about .2 meters or 8 inches in length > or shorter. > > >> 5) Abandon the continuous hinge concept and install separate short >> segments of metal hinge as the plans call for. > > > That works too . . . but probably no better than segmented > hinges of other materials. > > Bob . . . Or, he could break the AL hinge once in the middle & use it as the dipole. (I haven't even stayed in a Holiday Inn recently; please don't take this seriously.) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:07 PM 10/23/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone checked the engine ground strap? Excellent! Wish I'd thought of that. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:33 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - plenty of civilization. It never works. I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your airplane? Thanks, Dave Morris 1960 Mooney M20A N6030X at 52F ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:04 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 10/23/06 6:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, khurst@taroom.qld.gov.au writes: > Barry, > > Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? > > Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. > > With respect > > Kingsley in Oz ====================== Thank you Kingsley: Why indeed ... Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck so far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right place. It is NOT a game of I've got a secret, I TOLD the secret MANY, MANY times but you (the collective) refuse to listen. Do you recall what I posted? Do you recall the mindless regurgitation of how I was wrong. Well, this is just an example of Over Engineering and Electronic Babble. Remember I have screamed about K.I.S.S. ME I have a Hyundai, I spent two months swapping alternators, bench checking alternators and even replaced the battery (Didn't I tell fellow that replacing the battery won't help!) ALL to no avail. I failed to listen to my own advice. I kick myself in the ass on that one. "Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged." - Ideas are not exchanged here, only regurgitated. And if someone does not agree with the herd. They are whipped with the entrails of the herd. You know Kingsley, you are the ONLY one to question my posts on this topic. The ONLY one to ask. Hell, "the only stupid question is the one not asked". Look at how many questions were not asked! Someone finally did respond with what I believe to be the correct answer. Yet, we may never know. Even if they and I are right. Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC circuit. And what is the common metal on both the plane and Hyundai? "With respect" - Thank you for the respect, but all I want is a nation that thinks for themselves. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:03 PM PST US From: "David M." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, causing jamming to the cell system. David M. Dave N6030X wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X > > > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - > plenty of civilization. It never works. > > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. > > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your > airplane? > > Thanks, > > > Dave Morris > 1960 Mooney M20A > N6030X at 52F > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:43 PM PST US From: Steve Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve FLYaDIVE@aol.com wrote: >Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC circuit. Hmm... I'm reminded once again of the old adage that genius has it limits but ignorance knows no such bounds. Steve ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:04 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cellphones in the air --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" With analog phones, if you can still find one, it is illegal. He specified CMDA; the old rules seem not to apply to this service. As PIC, he certifies what is legal in his airplane as far as interference risks to safety of flight. My experience has been that down low, the reception is fine. Up high, it is as described - very frustrating. Text messages still work when voice won't, often. Perhaps the downward tilt of the antenna lobes on the cell towers. It's been discussed in the archives, but I'll wait to see if any new info surfaces this time around ;-) -Bill B On 10/23/06, David M. wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." > > That used to be illegal -- might still be. Old cells would tie in with > any tower they could see and from an airplane they could see a lot, > causing jamming to the cell system. > > David M. > > > Dave N6030X wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave N6030X > > > > > > I've tried to use my Verizon (CDMA) cellphone on several flights now, > > well within coverage areas, with good signal strength, from 3500 feet > > to as high as 8500 feet in line of sight and close to - or over - > > plenty of civilization. It never works. > > > > I'll have as many as 5 bars showing, but they are changing rapidly > > from no bars to 3 bars to 5 bars, dancing all around. > > > > What happens is that I dial the number, it spends a few seconds longer > > than normal connecting, and then either connects for a split second, > > or doesn't connect at all, but in either case it pops up a message > > saying "Signal Lost" and disconnects. > > > > Is anybody on this list able to reliably use a cellphone from in your > > airplane? > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Dave Morris > > 1960 Mooney M20A > > N6030X at 52F > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:40 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Barry, The false assumption that undermines your argument is that we are all paying attention to what you are saying. Some of us get really tired of trying to sort the wheat from the chaff and just hit the delete key. I'm pretty sure you are a smart guy that knows a lot of stuff about little airplanes that I don't, but this air of superiority just doesn't cut it with me and I would guess a few others. I don't think it's Kingsley that has his head up his butt. If you want to show us a little respect by making your posts short and to the point without belittling the character or intelligence of the rest of us, go for it. If not, don't expect us to remember just what it is that you have been saying. We probably hit the delete key before we got to it. And enough with this Yamashiada crap! Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 7:37 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator autopsy --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: FLYaDIVE@aol.com In a message dated 10/23/06 6:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, khurst@taroom.qld.gov.au writes: > Barry, > > Why do you play this game of "I've got a secret" ? > > Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged. > > With respect > > Kingsley in Oz ====================== Thank you Kingsley: Why indeed ... Because so many of you follow the leader with heads stuck so far up their butts that it LQQKs like the heads are in the right place. It is NOT a game of I've got a secret, I TOLD the secret MANY, MANY times but you (the collective) refuse to listen. Do you recall what I posted? Do you recall the mindless regurgitation of how I was wrong. Well, this is just an example of Over Engineering and Electronic Babble. Remember I have screamed about K.I.S.S. ME I have a Hyundai, I spent two months swapping alternators, bench checking alternators and even replaced the battery (Didn't I tell fellow that replacing the battery won't help!) ALL to no avail. I failed to listen to my own advice. I kick myself in the ass on that one. "Forgive me, but I thought this was a forum where ideas are exchanged." - Ideas are not exchanged here, only regurgitated. And if someone does not agree with the herd. They are whipped with the entrails of the herd. You know Kingsley, you are the ONLY one to question my posts on this topic. The ONLY one to ask. Hell, "the only stupid question is the one not asked". Look at how many questions were not asked! Someone finally did respond with what I believe to be the correct answer. Yet, we may never know. Even if they and I are right. Last hint: There are No such freek'n things as ground loops in a DC circuit. And what is the common metal on both the plane and Hyundai? "With respect" - Thank you for the respect, but all I want is a nation that thinks for themselves. Barry "Chop'd Liver" "Show them the first time, correct them the second time, kick them the third time." Yamashiada