Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:20 AM - FW: Dead Horses don't die... (Ed Holyoke)
2. 02:31 AM - Re: Dead Horses don't die... (Kevin Horton)
3. 02:39 AM - Re: Dead Horses don't die... (Kevin Horton)
4. 04:13 AM - Re: GMA340 Wiring (Dave)
5. 05:02 AM - Re: Dead Horses don't die... (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
6. 05:52 AM - Re: What Now? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:22 AM - Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:40 AM - Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 07:18 AM - Unusual opportunity (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 07:22 AM - Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year (Bob White)
11. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: Another Banning? (John Danielson)
12. 07:31 AM - Re: GMA340 Wiring (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
13. 10:33 AM - Re: Unusual opportunity (David M.)
14. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: explosion proof fans (Doug Windhorn)
15. 06:57 PM - Off subject - auto battery setup (Charles Brame)
16. 08:58 PM - Dynon - hall effect sensor issue (Pete Howell)
17. 11:21 PM - Re: Re: explosion proof fans (Bob Verwey)
Message 1
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Subject: | Dead Horses don't die... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Our RV was wired something like this when we got it - with a switch
labeled "E-Bus" but which I thought of as an avionics master because the
radios wouldn't come on without it even with the master on. In fact it
was a switch/breaker. When I recently remade the panel, that same
switch/breaker fell apart in my hands while I was removing it from the
old panel. A single point of failure which, fortunately, failed on the
ground. There was an alternate feed switch, so I guess the switch
failure wouldn't have been a horrible thing in flight, but none the
less, I didn't include it in the new version of the panel. I figure that
it can't hurt to exercise all the radio switches regularly anyway so we
switch them off after each flight.
We do have a couple of items that don't like being on during engine
cranking. One is a Dynon D-10 which browns out and sometimes doesn't
come back so we've put an item in our checklist to pull its breaker
before start. The other is a Trio autopilot which the installation
instructions state not to subject to the reduced voltage of cranking so
we switch it on after startup. Some stuff is still out there that need
some kind of protection to avoid problems.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
I suppose one could feed avionics by connecting a separate
>fuse block to the normal supply side of the e-bus through an "Avionics
>Master Switch" and accept the single-point failure potential.
Not necessary. Run your "critical" items from the e-bus and
put a switch in series with the e-bus normal feed path diode
and call it the "avionics master switch".
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Dead Horses don't die... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 26 Oct 2006, at 22:34, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> I know that Microair did not do their homework and build
> power handling circuitry that was NOT DO-160 qualifiable
> (20v for 1 S, 40v for 100 mS). That's why I stopped handling
> them . . . they knew their limitations and in spite of
> offers of free help, they elected to drive on as-is.
>
I've got a Microair com in my not-yet-flying aircraft. I don't have
an avionics master. What sorts of problems can I anticipate due to
the power handling issues? Do I need to have the radio OFF during
start up and shut down?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Dead Horses don't die... |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 26 Oct 2006, at 23:21, Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
> And here is response from Garmin- again, original request below:
>
> "Garmin recommends that these units no be power up during engine
> start to
> prevent voltage spike damage. "
>
>
> George Koelsch
> Garmin International
> Aviation Field Service Engineer
> george.koelsch@garmin.com
> 913-397-8200
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Phillips [mailto:fiveonepw@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:10 PM
> To: Garmin Sales Support
> Subject: Sales support request for GNS 430
>
> Inquiry:
> I have on order from an avionics installer a GNS430, SL30 and
> GTX327- I wish
> to avoid a separate avionics bus and plan to power these from my
> endurance
> bus fuseblock, which is hot whenever the master contactor is on per
> Bob
> Nuckolls' AeroElectric Connection system architecture. Is this
> acceptable
> or must I make sure these units are not powered up during engine
> start?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting. The installation manuals for the GNS-430 and the
GTX-327 claim DO-160 Category A qualification for voltage spikes (I
don't have an SL-30 Installation manual to look at). Are they saying
that they don't trust their test results, or that they didn't really
do the test? Or that they think the real world might be worse than
the DO-160 requirements?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: GMA340 Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave <dave@abrahamson.net>
That dimmer circuit affects the switch letter lighting, whereas the
rest of the dimming is handled automatically, like for the GNS430,
etc... You can connect it to 12V or run it through a dimmer. This
is all from a clarification discussion with the techs at Stark.
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Dead Horses don't die... |
In a message dated 10/27/2006 4:35:56 AM Central Daylight Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
What sorts of problems can I anticipate due to
the power handling issues? Do I need to have the radio OFF during
start up and shut down?
>>>>>>>>>
"Radios ON/OFF" are checklist items for me- haven't seen any negative effects
from radio yet when "OFF" item missed, but T2000 xpndr does seem to behave
oddly if left on at shutdown. "No Comm" errors, turning itself on before Master
shut off, difficult to turn on (occasionally requires several attemps holding
power button in) but otherwise seems to work fairly well.
My 760 transmits very well, but reception from maybe 20% of other aircraft
(ATC and unicoms always come in well) typically with older radios, is garbled in
varying degrees and on rare occasions almost non-existent. Haven't been able
to resolve yet- curious if others experience this. Close formation reception
is often garbled- added resistor to antenna line as discussed here some time
ago (thanks Bob!) helped quite a bit, but will upsize resistor at next
opportunity & see if improves...
Mark Phillips -6A, 360 hours
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:15 AM 10/22/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>At 10:38 AM 10/22/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder
>><Earl_Schroeder@juno.com>
>>
>>Bob,
>>Here is the URL:
>>http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/AltrakVSInstallandUserGuide.pdf
>
> Thanks. I'll study this but later today. We're having a gather'n o' the
> clan at Aunt
> Judy's this afternoon and I'm doing some of the cooking. Need to go
> fire up the
> oven.
Okay, I've prayed over the drawings and like most installation
manuals, the information provided is a recipe for success,
"wire it like this, trust me, it will work."
Of course, 99+ percent of the time, this is sufficient. Now
comes the customer who believes he has faithfully followed
the recipe . . . but the cake falls. All the ingredients
have been checked by the supplier and pronounced golden . . .
yet repeated attempts to secure the desired behavior
fail.
In this case, there are no customer adjustments to be
made. The system fails not in terms of loss-of-precision
or intermittent behavior . . . but in a gross and spectacular
way.
Assuming you've checked, rechecked and DOUBLE CHECKED
the installation, it's time to get the designer's attention.
When presented with a set of symptoms for malfunction, one
of my most powerful diagnostic tools is to deduce how I
would "modify" an otherwise working system to produce the
same behavior. A sort of reversed application of Failure Mode
Effects Analysis. Instead of analyzing how the system behaves
when a single component experiences any of the failures unique
to it's physics, were saying that it's our desire to produce
the behavior noted. Which components would be changed and in
what way to deliberately produce that result?
It seems that your communications with the manufacturer
to date have NOT been with an individual capable of doing that
kind of analysis. So, with all parties having conducted due
diligence to the best of their abilities, it's time to ask
the supplier to bring in folks who can take this investigation
to a more detailed level. It may require the attention of
the individual(s) who designed the system . . . what ever it
takes is the responsibility of the supplier.
One hopes that describing the noted behavior to the correct
individual produces an answer like, "Oh, if you've flipped
the wires between pins 3 and 16, that's what happens." Then
you can make your apologies for taking up their valuable time
with something so silly . . . and go fix the problem. But
that's the way the game is played between willing and able
suppliers of products to hopeful and perhaps even loyal
consumers.
My recommendation is that you check the wiring one more
time . . . enlist the assistance of a second pair of eyes.
When you're sure the installation is golden, get back with
the supplier. Include this note along with your inquiry.
Let's make it clear this time that the assistance of the
'right' individual is needed, the one who KNOWS about that
thing with pins 3 and 16 . . . or perhaps something inside
the device over which you're not expected to have control.
The physics behind this problem are inviolate. The answer
is going to be stone simple. But it will not be revealed
by individuals with less than an intimate understanding
of how the system works irrespective of who has ultimate
responsibility for the little-bit-that-doesn't-fit.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:01 PM 10/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
>
> From the Mixonline link:
>
>>>In this case, a fairly minute signal (voltage) at the grid would
>result in huge changes in the plate voltage, and the first
>amplification device was born.<<
>
>Um, that would be huge changes in the plate _current_, wouldn't it?
>Voltage doesn't sag much with a well-regulated plate supply.
Yes . . . let's hope the writer stuck that in to see
if you were really reading and understanding the
words and the physics they described . . .
>Voltage changes occur across the plate _load R_, true...
>
>Be careful what you read on the 'net, right?
EVERYTHING ANYONE WRITES is fair game for critical
review. Mistakes of gross error and misunderstanding
happen all the time. I think I've offered here on
the List, my own perceptions and appreciation for
standing at the front of the room in a good critical
review. It's win-win: either my design and ideas are
validated . . . or a bad idea is prevented from going
to production.
I'm working on a white paper for my managers that
describes the functional IR&D effort. Too many folks
with decision making responsibility view the IR&D
FACILITY as a collection of plant, tools, inventory,
and a budget . . . they're really proud of an air-
conditioned, well lit room full of shiny tools and
bins full of parts. I'm attempting to help them understand
that real IR&D happens in a community of individuals
who INHABIT such a facility. It's a cross-fertilization
of ideas filtered though the skills and understanding
of several individuals that makes the magic of IR&D
really happen. The facility is useful (and can even
be tracked on the balance sheet), but the real value
resides in an intangible collection of skill and a
willingness of individuals to use it that makes the
IR&D effort live or die. There's an audio track I'll
invite you to listen to at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Temp/Virgil_Elings-Look_at_the_Big_Picture.mp3
I would LOVE to work for and with this guy. When it
comes to getting past the BS and doing real science
that leads to useful production, he's "da man!".
We're all doing IR&D here. The 'net is a huge resource
of data, a great deal of which is intended to entertain
or convince you to buy something. And yes, even attempts
at good teaching will have errors. But it's the
COMMUNITY of researchers here on the List that provides
the necessary filtering and perspective to discover
simple-ideas for assembly into new inventions based on
a common understanding.
Bill, you get the gold star for the day in catching
the writer's error and bringing it to the attention
of interested individuals. Good catch!
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:14 PM 10/26/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net>
>
> > http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/deforest.htm
>
>This is in no way intended to demean or diminish De Forest's
>accomplishments, however......
>
>"To place a man in a multi-stage rocket and project him into the
>controlling gravitational field of the moon.... I am bold enough to
>say that such a man-made voyage will never occur regardless of
>all future advances."
>
>- Dr. Lee De Forest, famous engineer, 1957
>
>I would add that perhaps one should stick to topics they know
>well. Dr. De Forest obviously understood the electron's basic
>uses far better than he did the future use of those same
>"particles" and the devices they would spawn, enabling the very
>thing he predicted would not happen to become possible. It's
>always a point of some amazement to me just how limited a
>capacity most people have in understanding what the future
>holds. As for me, I wish I knew something......anything......
Your observation serves to illustrate one of the
points in my IR&D White Paper. The most talented
among us are still subject to the foibles of the
human condition. Another example:
"In science there is only physics; all the rest is stamp collecting."
[If a ball, say of water or glass] "as large as a football, were
to be magnified up to the size of the earth, each constituent
molecule being magnified in the same proportion, the magnified
structure would be more coarse-grained than a heap of shot, but
probably less coarse-grained than a heap of footballs."
and
"If you can not measure it, you can not improve it."
These ideas were offered by Lord Kelvin in the late
1800's. He made huge contributions to the understanding
of physics. But the same individual was observed to
say,
"X-rays will prove to be a hoax."
"Wireless [telegraphy] is all very well but I'd rather send
a message by a boy on a pony!"
"Radio has no future."
and when Writing to Niagara Falls Power Company he said,
"Trust you will avoid the gigantic mistake of alternating current."
As a society we are too willing to brush aside
the talents and contributions of very willing and
able individuals based on some past transgression
or ill-conceived utterance. But then, few in society
have understanding or ability to participate in
an "IR&D community". Were it not for those few
individuals in our history, we would not be
convening here on this List to discover and share
better ways to build airplanes . . . indeed, there would
be no Internet upon which we might convene anything.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Unusual opportunity |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
On some other tasks, I've been using some platinum
resistance temperature sensors that are renowned for
their accuracy. I found some devices from China offered
on Ebay and ordered a few to try. See:
http://tinyurl.com/y25z6x
Of course I can't evaluate ruggedness without formal
testing but the electrical performance of these critters
is as-advertised and their appearance suggests good
construction. I just ordered a few more. A heads-up for
some of the techno-wiennies out there.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:21:46 -0500
"Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 11:01 PM 10/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com>
> >
> > From the Mixonline link:
> >
> >>>In this case, a fairly minute signal (voltage) at the grid would
> >result in huge changes in the plate voltage, and the first
> >amplification device was born.<<
> >
> >Um, that would be huge changes in the plate _current_, wouldn't it?
> >Voltage doesn't sag much with a well-regulated plate supply.
>
> Yes . . . let's hope the writer stuck that in to see
> if you were really reading and understanding the
> words and the physics they described . . .
>
>
> >Voltage changes occur across the plate _load R_, true...
> >
> >Be careful what you read on the 'net, right?
>
> EVERYTHING ANYONE WRITES is fair game for critical
> review. Mistakes of gross error and misunderstanding
> happen all the time. I think I've offered here on
> the List, my own perceptions and appreciation for
> standing at the front of the room in a good critical
> review. It's win-win: either my design and ideas are
> validated . . . or a bad idea is prevented from going
> to production.
>
<snip>
>
> Bill, you get the gold star for the day in catching
> the writer's error and bringing it to the attention
> of interested individuals. Good catch!
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
I think you guys are mixing up plate supply with plate voltage. The
load resistor is between the supply and the plate. When the current
increases, the voltage across the load resistor increases. Therefore
the plate voltage goes down. There isn't anything wrong with the
original description.
Bob W.
--
N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
First engine start 1/7/06 - Special Airworthiness Certificate 10/1/06
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Another Banning? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Danielson" <johnd@wlcwyo.com>
Totally agree with Bob's response.
I just hate listening to these (they must be) liberals rattle on and on.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Another Banning?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:28 PM 10/26/2006 -0400, you wrote:
>Nope. I don't agree with Barry's rant. He was grossly off track.
>I had no idea what he was talking about during most of it.
>I certainly don't remember his musings of earlier. I doubt
>anyone does - except Barry. Regardless, I also don't agree to
>the banning of people from this forum.
They've been asked to leave other forums too Stan.
>Barry contributes significantly to my learning and I like
>to hear his comments. If I don't like what I hear, I
>move on to the next individual's comments. I didn't like
>Barry's recent rant. I moved on to the next entry.
>Paul and George also contributed significantly to the discussions.
>But, we'll never know what their latest contributions might entail.
So anyone can say anything and it's okay with you
as long as they sprinkle the occasional "nugget"
of good stuff . . . and how do you KNOW it's
good stuff? Not once did and of the gentlemen in question
explain their respective rants in simple-ideas
that anyone can grasp, appreciate and use based
on personal understanding. If you find it sufficient
to take their advice as-is, you're certainly free
to communicate with them directly . . . but if
they choose to pour out "data" without also being
a teacher, then there's no basis for deducing that
their offerings are anything but self serving
propaganda.
>I guess we'll all have to live with the bannings
>until/unless we start a blog/forum of our own.
You don't read well sir . . . nobody has been
"banned" . . . but I'm told that that IS an
option. But everything from giant corporations to
new religions have been splintered off from other
groups. As I mentioned, Usenet is ready, willing
and able to accept whatever form and function
of words you desire. Anyone can start a Usenet
group and nobody here will discourage you
from doing it if you find the atmosphere here
stifling or oppressive.
>Regarding your last paragraph, I didn't realize there
>was a time before you got here. I must have joined after
>you arrived.
The Matronics forums existed long before the
AeroElectric-List. Read the periodically published
FAQ and mission statement published by Matt
and you'll understand that my simple request for
Barry to comport himself in the manner of a gentleman
comes from Matronics List Policies.
My question to you sir still stands. Is it
your mission here to help us improve on the
best we know how to do . . . or to belabor
the fact that an unruly participant got
his wrists slapped?
Bob . . .
Message 12
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
Doug at SteinAir answered this for me just two weeks ago. For my stack,
Dual SL-30's and a 327, they have the ability to auto dim with a sensor.
But they also have the ability to be connected to a manual dimmer if you
want, just not both at the same time. There is a configuration option
that you select. He recommended that I try it in the auto mode, and if I
am not happy with it, then put it in manual for adjustment. Give Stein a
call, and they are happy to work with you in setting this up, they are
good people and willing to help anyone, that is why I chose to us them.
Dan Lloyd
RV10E (N289DT)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris
Byrne
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GMA340 Wiring
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne"
<jack.byrne@bigpond.com>
Listers
I had my radio looms made for me. As well as the +12V for the GMA340 I
have
1 or maybe 2 wires marked GMA340 lighting +12.
Do I wire these direct to power or do they need to go to a lighting
dimmer.
Was hoping the GMA 340 had its own internal lighting dimmer.
>From memory I also have the same situation with the GTX327
Chris Byrne
SYDNEY
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Unusual opportunity |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
Beware of the "metallurgy" of Chinese products. They are generally very bad.
Not to mention they still murder Americans, threaten us with nuclear
holocaust once a quarter, and still have our MD's working as shoe
manufacturer slaves.
David M.
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List me
> ed by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> On some other tasks, I've been using some platinum
> resistance temperature sensors that are renowned for
> their accuracy. I found some devices from China offered
> on Ebay and ordered a few to try. See:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y25z6x
>
> Of course I can't evaluate ruggedness without formal
> testing but the electrical performance of these critters
> is as-advertised and their appearance suggests good
> construction. I just ordered a few more. A heads-up for
> some of the techno-wiennies out there.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net>
Eric, et al,
I didn't want to write a dissertation on the original question asked which
related to safe implementation of a fan for an enclosed spray room. As Eric
has guided us, there is a plethora of information on explosions and
explosive atmospheres. But my perception of the intent of the temporary
spray booth was to successfully complete painting an airplane. Do we need
to read multi-hundred page books to determine whether we can do this safely
or not?
Back to basics:
1) Assume we will use a flammable based paint. Otherwise, most of the rest
of this discussion is not too important.
2) We will assume the enclosed area for painting is relatively air tight.
If it is not, make sure there is no hot electrical outside the are within 5
ft. of the floor.
3) Further assume the purpose of the booth is to reduce dust that will
contaminate the paint job, and to keep undesirable vapors and particles away
from energy sources (static, electrical arcing as is switches, hot surfaces
as in furnaces, or open flame as in a multitude of appliances) as may be
appropriate.
4) I am assuming the builder of the booth is astute enough to know not to
put electrical equipment inside the booth, including lights. He also has
enough sense to ground discharge nozzles to prevent static buildup. This
activity is not for idiots.
5) The "booth" should consist of 3 parts - the activity room, an air supply
plenum, and an exhaust plenum. The interface between the supply plenum and
the activity room will be at the top of the latter. The interface between
the activity area and the exhaust plenum will be at floor level. Both
interfaces will consist of filters. Both plenums will be fed from, or
discharge to, outside the building which contains our booth.
6) Given 5, any fan of adequate volumetric capacity will work (remember, one
complete air change every 5 min.). It will be switched on before entering
the booth, and off after departing, because the switch is outside the booth.
There are few reasons to be concerned with explosive vapors migrating to the
fan because they are heavier than air and will exit via the exhaust plenum
even if the fan is off. (One "safe" industrial approach is to eliminate
electrical equipment within 5' of an open faced spray booth, and within 15'
for a height of 5' off the floor.)
The one exception I can think of would be related to airflow through the
booth in the opposite direction caused by wind outside the building.
Appropriate arrangement of the intake and exhaust areas should mitigate this
(back draft dampers might be considered if this is perceived to be a
problem).
7) With adequate airflow through the activity area, a general "fog" will not
occur. If it does, stop spraying and figure out why!
8) Have you gotten zapped from static today? If so, you might want to
postpone your spray activity to another day as one added precaution.
If steps 1-8 are addressed, your chances for an explosion are next to
nothing. These precautions are easy to take and make good sense. They also
are not expensive. Going down the road of intrinsically safe or explosion
proof equipment does not make good sense given the purpose of our temporary
installation. If you think you need to do more than the above, I would
highly recommend not using a flammable solvent based paint.
Regards,
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, 26 October, 2006 8:02
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
> <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Guys!.....whoa.
>
> Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in
> 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof
> painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why.
>
> Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint
> xplosion -"explosion
> proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you
> tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of
> non-relevant stuff.
>
> Then answer the following--
>
> 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup
> similar to what you intend to use?
>
> 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural
> gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame?
>
> My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may
> elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch
> is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray.
> Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag.
>
> Again. Be safe but not silly.
>
> "Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in."
> ---Leonard Cohen
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones@charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334
>
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Off subject - auto battery setup |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>
There has been an interesting discussion of cheap PC-680 batteries
(Oddessy knockoffs) on another list. The cost is less than $30. I'm
not sure I want to run one in my airplane, but my Jeep needs a new
battery. I'm considering wiring two of these cheap PC-680s in
parallel and using them to replace the Sears lead acid auto battery
in the Jeep. The result should be as potent as the Sears Battery for
less money, take up less space, and avoid the cable corrosion problem
that has plagued my Jeep ever since I bought it. Is there anything
wrong with this idea?
Charlie
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
Message 16
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Subject: | Dynon - hall effect sensor issue |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
Hello,
I have a Dynon EMS-D10 unit in my RV-9A. I am using a hall effect sensor
from a GRT EIS to measure current in the main wire from the battery to the
main bus. This sensor is supported by Dynon and it works well with one
glitch. Every 10 seconds (like clockwork), the amps reading shoots up to
+99 amps for 1 second and then drifts back down to the correct value. In
the 10 seconds that the correct value is displayed, I can vary the load and
see accurate results on the meter. Any thoughts? There should be nothing
that is sending a high current spike thru the cable.
I have a message into Dynon, but thought I would try here, too. - Thanks
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: explosion proof fans |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Verwey " <bonanza@vodamail.co.za>
Doug, this post goes into my archives. Some subtle points that I did not give much
thought to! Thanks for the
heads up! That is why I love the list- always learning!
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
Behalf Of Doug Windhorn
Sent: 28 October 2006 03:55 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn"
--> <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net>
Eric, et al,
I didn't want to write a dissertation on the original question asked which related
to safe implementation of a
fan for an enclosed spray room. As Eric has guided us, there is a plethora of
information on explosions and
explosive atmospheres. But my perception of the intent of the temporary spray
booth was to successfully
complete painting an airplane. Do we need to read multi-hundred page books to
determine whether we can do
this safely or not?
Back to basics:
1) Assume we will use a flammable based paint. Otherwise, most of the rest of
this discussion is not too
important.
2) We will assume the enclosed area for painting is relatively air tight.
If it is not, make sure there is no hot electrical outside the are within 5 ft.
of the floor.
3) Further assume the purpose of the booth is to reduce dust that will contaminate
the paint job, and to keep
undesirable vapors and particles away from energy sources (static, electrical arcing
as is switches, hot
surfaces as in furnaces, or open flame as in a multitude of appliances) as may
be appropriate.
4) I am assuming the builder of the booth is astute enough to know not to put electrical
equipment inside the
booth, including lights. He also has enough sense to ground discharge nozzles
to prevent static buildup.
This activity is not for idiots.
5) The "booth" should consist of 3 parts - the activity room, an air supply plenum,
and an exhaust plenum. The
interface between the supply plenum and the activity room will be at the top of
the latter. The interface
between the activity area and the exhaust plenum will be at floor level. Both
interfaces will consist of
filters. Both plenums will be fed from, or discharge to, outside the building which
contains our booth.
6) Given 5, any fan of adequate volumetric capacity will work (remember, one complete
air change every 5
min.). It will be switched on before entering the booth, and off after departing,
because the switch is
outside the booth.
There are few reasons to be concerned with explosive vapors migrating to the fan
because they are heavier than
air and will exit via the exhaust plenum even if the fan is off. (One "safe" industrial
approach is to
eliminate electrical equipment within 5' of an open faced spray booth, and within
15'
for a height of 5' off the floor.)
The one exception I can think of would be related to airflow through the booth
in the opposite direction
caused by wind outside the building.
Appropriate arrangement of the intake and exhaust areas should mitigate this (back
draft dampers might be
considered if this is perceived to be a problem).
7) With adequate airflow through the activity area, a general "fog" will not occur.
If it does, stop spraying
and figure out why!
8) Have you gotten zapped from static today? If so, you might want to postpone
your spray activity to another
day as one added precaution.
If steps 1-8 are addressed, your chances for an explosion are next to nothing.
These precautions are easy to
take and make good sense. They also are not expensive. Going down the road of
intrinsically safe or explosion
proof equipment does not make good sense given the purpose of our temporary installation.
If you think you
need to do more than the above, I would highly recommend not using a flammable
solvent based paint.
Regards,
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, 26 October, 2006 8:02
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
> <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Guys!.....whoa.
>
> Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in
> 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof
> painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why.
>
> Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint
> xplosion -"explosion
> proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you
> tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of
> non-relevant stuff.
>
> Then answer the following--
>
> 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup
> similar to what you intend to use?
>
> 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural
> gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame?
>
> My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may
> elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch
> is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray.
> Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag.
>
> Again. Be safe but not silly.
>
> "Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in."
> ---Leonard Cohen
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones@charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334
>
>
>
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