AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 10/27/06


Total Messages Posted: 17



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 01:20 AM - FW: Dead Horses don't die... (Ed Holyoke)
     2. 02:31 AM - Re: Dead Horses don't die... (Kevin Horton)
     3. 02:39 AM - Re: Dead Horses don't die... (Kevin Horton)
     4. 04:13 AM - Re: GMA340 Wiring (Dave)
     5. 05:02 AM - Re: Dead Horses don't die... (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
     6. 05:52 AM - Re: What Now? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 06:22 AM - Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 06:40 AM - Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 07:18 AM - Unusual opportunity  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 07:22 AM - Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year (Bob White)
    11. 07:28 AM - Re: Re: Another Banning? (John Danielson)
    12. 07:31 AM - Re: GMA340 Wiring (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
    13. 10:33 AM - Re: Unusual opportunity (David M.)
    14. 06:56 PM - Re: Re: explosion proof fans (Doug Windhorn)
    15. 06:57 PM - Off subject - auto battery setup (Charles Brame)
    16. 08:58 PM - Dynon - hall effect sensor issue (Pete Howell)
    17. 11:21 PM - Re: Re: explosion proof fans (Bob Verwey)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 01:20:28 AM PST US
    From: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
    Subject: Dead Horses don't die...
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net> Our RV was wired something like this when we got it - with a switch labeled "E-Bus" but which I thought of as an avionics master because the radios wouldn't come on without it even with the master on. In fact it was a switch/breaker. When I recently remade the panel, that same switch/breaker fell apart in my hands while I was removing it from the old panel. A single point of failure which, fortunately, failed on the ground. There was an alternate feed switch, so I guess the switch failure wouldn't have been a horrible thing in flight, but none the less, I didn't include it in the new version of the panel. I figure that it can't hurt to exercise all the radio switches regularly anyway so we switch them off after each flight. We do have a couple of items that don't like being on during engine cranking. One is a Dynon D-10 which browns out and sometimes doesn't come back so we've put an item in our checklist to pull its breaker before start. The other is a Trio autopilot which the installation instructions state not to subject to the reduced voltage of cranking so we switch it on after startup. Some stuff is still out there that need some kind of protection to avoid problems. Pax, Ed Holyoke --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> I suppose one could feed avionics by connecting a separate >fuse block to the normal supply side of the e-bus through an "Avionics >Master Switch" and accept the single-point failure potential. Not necessary. Run your "critical" items from the e-bus and put a switch in series with the e-bus normal feed path diode and call it the "avionics master switch".


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:31:21 AM PST US
    From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Dead Horses don't die...
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com> On 26 Oct 2006, at 22:34, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > I know that Microair did not do their homework and build > power handling circuitry that was NOT DO-160 qualifiable > (20v for 1 S, 40v for 100 mS). That's why I stopped handling > them . . . they knew their limitations and in spite of > offers of free help, they elected to drive on as-is. > I've got a Microair com in my not-yet-flying aircraft. I don't have an avionics master. What sorts of problems can I anticipate due to the power handling issues? Do I need to have the radio OFF during start up and shut down? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:39:55 AM PST US
    From: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Dead Horses don't die...
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com> On 26 Oct 2006, at 23:21, Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > And here is response from Garmin- again, original request below: > > "Garmin recommends that these units no be power up during engine > start to > prevent voltage spike damage. " > > > George Koelsch > Garmin International > Aviation Field Service Engineer > george.koelsch@garmin.com > 913-397-8200 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Phillips [mailto:fiveonepw@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 10:10 PM > To: Garmin Sales Support > Subject: Sales support request for GNS 430 > > Inquiry: > I have on order from an avionics installer a GNS430, SL30 and > GTX327- I wish > to avoid a separate avionics bus and plan to power these from my > endurance > bus fuseblock, which is hot whenever the master contactor is on per > Bob > Nuckolls' AeroElectric Connection system architecture. Is this > acceptable > or must I make sure these units are not powered up during engine > start? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. The installation manuals for the GNS-430 and the GTX-327 claim DO-160 Category A qualification for voltage spikes (I don't have an SL-30 Installation manual to look at). Are they saying that they don't trust their test results, or that they didn't really do the test? Or that they think the real world might be worse than the DO-160 requirements? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:13:10 AM PST US
    From: Dave <dave@abrahamson.net>
    Subject: Re: GMA340 Wiring
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave <dave@abrahamson.net> That dimmer circuit affects the switch letter lighting, whereas the rest of the dimming is handled automatically, like for the GNS430, etc... You can connect it to 12V or run it through a dimmer. This is all from a clarification discussion with the techs at Stark.


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:02:22 AM PST US
    From: Fiveonepw@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Dead Horses don't die...
    In a message dated 10/27/2006 4:35:56 AM Central Daylight Time, khorton01@rogers.com writes: What sorts of problems can I anticipate due to the power handling issues? Do I need to have the radio OFF during start up and shut down? >>>>>>>>> "Radios ON/OFF" are checklist items for me- haven't seen any negative effects from radio yet when "OFF" item missed, but T2000 xpndr does seem to behave oddly if left on at shutdown. "No Comm" errors, turning itself on before Master shut off, difficult to turn on (occasionally requires several attemps holding power button in) but otherwise seems to work fairly well. My 760 transmits very well, but reception from maybe 20% of other aircraft (ATC and unicoms always come in well) typically with older radios, is garbled in varying degrees and on rare occasions almost non-existent. Haven't been able to resolve yet- curious if others experience this. Close formation reception is often garbled- added resistor to antenna line as discussed here some time ago (thanks Bob!) helped quite a bit, but will upsize resistor at next opportunity & see if improves... Mark Phillips -6A, 360 hours


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:52:53 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: What Now?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:15 AM 10/22/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" ><nuckollsr@cox.net> > >At 10:38 AM 10/22/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder >><Earl_Schroeder@juno.com> >> >>Bob, >>Here is the URL: >>http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/documents/AltrakVSInstallandUserGuide.pdf > > Thanks. I'll study this but later today. We're having a gather'n o' the > clan at Aunt > Judy's this afternoon and I'm doing some of the cooking. Need to go > fire up the > oven. Okay, I've prayed over the drawings and like most installation manuals, the information provided is a recipe for success, "wire it like this, trust me, it will work." Of course, 99+ percent of the time, this is sufficient. Now comes the customer who believes he has faithfully followed the recipe . . . but the cake falls. All the ingredients have been checked by the supplier and pronounced golden . . . yet repeated attempts to secure the desired behavior fail. In this case, there are no customer adjustments to be made. The system fails not in terms of loss-of-precision or intermittent behavior . . . but in a gross and spectacular way. Assuming you've checked, rechecked and DOUBLE CHECKED the installation, it's time to get the designer's attention. When presented with a set of symptoms for malfunction, one of my most powerful diagnostic tools is to deduce how I would "modify" an otherwise working system to produce the same behavior. A sort of reversed application of Failure Mode Effects Analysis. Instead of analyzing how the system behaves when a single component experiences any of the failures unique to it's physics, were saying that it's our desire to produce the behavior noted. Which components would be changed and in what way to deliberately produce that result? It seems that your communications with the manufacturer to date have NOT been with an individual capable of doing that kind of analysis. So, with all parties having conducted due diligence to the best of their abilities, it's time to ask the supplier to bring in folks who can take this investigation to a more detailed level. It may require the attention of the individual(s) who designed the system . . . what ever it takes is the responsibility of the supplier. One hopes that describing the noted behavior to the correct individual produces an answer like, "Oh, if you've flipped the wires between pins 3 and 16, that's what happens." Then you can make your apologies for taking up their valuable time with something so silly . . . and go fix the problem. But that's the way the game is played between willing and able suppliers of products to hopeful and perhaps even loyal consumers. My recommendation is that you check the wiring one more time . . . enlist the assistance of a second pair of eyes. When you're sure the installation is golden, get back with the supplier. Include this note along with your inquiry. Let's make it clear this time that the assistance of the 'right' individual is needed, the one who KNOWS about that thing with pins 3 and 16 . . . or perhaps something inside the device over which you're not expected to have control. The physics behind this problem are inviolate. The answer is going to be stone simple. But it will not be revealed by individuals with less than an intimate understanding of how the system works irrespective of who has ultimate responsibility for the little-bit-that-doesn't-fit. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:22:37 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:01 PM 10/26/2006 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com> > > From the Mixonline link: > >>>In this case, a fairly minute signal (voltage) at the grid would >result in huge changes in the plate voltage, and the first >amplification device was born.<< > >Um, that would be huge changes in the plate _current_, wouldn't it? >Voltage doesn't sag much with a well-regulated plate supply. Yes . . . let's hope the writer stuck that in to see if you were really reading and understanding the words and the physics they described . . . >Voltage changes occur across the plate _load R_, true... > >Be careful what you read on the 'net, right? EVERYTHING ANYONE WRITES is fair game for critical review. Mistakes of gross error and misunderstanding happen all the time. I think I've offered here on the List, my own perceptions and appreciation for standing at the front of the room in a good critical review. It's win-win: either my design and ideas are validated . . . or a bad idea is prevented from going to production. I'm working on a white paper for my managers that describes the functional IR&D effort. Too many folks with decision making responsibility view the IR&D FACILITY as a collection of plant, tools, inventory, and a budget . . . they're really proud of an air- conditioned, well lit room full of shiny tools and bins full of parts. I'm attempting to help them understand that real IR&D happens in a community of individuals who INHABIT such a facility. It's a cross-fertilization of ideas filtered though the skills and understanding of several individuals that makes the magic of IR&D really happen. The facility is useful (and can even be tracked on the balance sheet), but the real value resides in an intangible collection of skill and a willingness of individuals to use it that makes the IR&D effort live or die. There's an audio track I'll invite you to listen to at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Temp/Virgil_Elings-Look_at_the_Big_Picture.mp3 I would LOVE to work for and with this guy. When it comes to getting past the BS and doing real science that leads to useful production, he's "da man!". We're all doing IR&D here. The 'net is a huge resource of data, a great deal of which is intended to entertain or convince you to buy something. And yes, even attempts at good teaching will have errors. But it's the COMMUNITY of researchers here on the List that provides the necessary filtering and perspective to discover simple-ideas for assembly into new inventions based on a common understanding. Bill, you get the gold star for the day in catching the writer's error and bringing it to the attention of interested individuals. Good catch! Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:40:42 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:14 PM 10/26/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@msbit.net> > > > http://chem.ch.huji.ac.il/~eugeniik/history/deforest.htm > >This is in no way intended to demean or diminish De Forest's >accomplishments, however...... > >"To place a man in a multi-stage rocket and project him into the >controlling gravitational field of the moon.... I am bold enough to >say that such a man-made voyage will never occur regardless of >all future advances." > >- Dr. Lee De Forest, famous engineer, 1957 > >I would add that perhaps one should stick to topics they know >well. Dr. De Forest obviously understood the electron's basic >uses far better than he did the future use of those same >"particles" and the devices they would spawn, enabling the very >thing he predicted would not happen to become possible. It's >always a point of some amazement to me just how limited a >capacity most people have in understanding what the future >holds. As for me, I wish I knew something......anything...... Your observation serves to illustrate one of the points in my IR&D White Paper. The most talented among us are still subject to the foibles of the human condition. Another example: "In science there is only physics; all the rest is stamp collecting." [If a ball, say of water or glass] "as large as a football, were to be magnified up to the size of the earth, each constituent molecule being magnified in the same proportion, the magnified structure would be more coarse-grained than a heap of shot, but probably less coarse-grained than a heap of footballs." and "If you can not measure it, you can not improve it." These ideas were offered by Lord Kelvin in the late 1800's. He made huge contributions to the understanding of physics. But the same individual was observed to say, "X-rays will prove to be a hoax." "Wireless [telegraphy] is all very well but I'd rather send a message by a boy on a pony!" "Radio has no future." and when Writing to Niagara Falls Power Company he said, "Trust you will avoid the gigantic mistake of alternating current." As a society we are too willing to brush aside the talents and contributions of very willing and able individuals based on some past transgression or ill-conceived utterance. But then, few in society have understanding or ability to participate in an "IR&D community". Were it not for those few individuals in our history, we would not be convening here on this List to discover and share better ways to build airplanes . . . indeed, there would be no Internet upon which we might convene anything. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:18:02 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Unusual opportunity
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> On some other tasks, I've been using some platinum resistance temperature sensors that are renowned for their accuracy. I found some devices from China offered on Ebay and ordered a few to try. See: http://tinyurl.com/y25z6x Of course I can't evaluate ruggedness without formal testing but the electrical performance of these critters is as-advertised and their appearance suggests good construction. I just ordered a few more. A heads-up for some of the techno-wiennies out there. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > ---------------------------------------------------------


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:22:06 AM PST US
    From: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com>
    Subject: Re: "Electronics" is 100 years old this year
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White <bob@bob-white.com> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:21:46 -0500 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > At 11:01 PM 10/26/2006 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r@gmail.com> > > > > From the Mixonline link: > > > >>>In this case, a fairly minute signal (voltage) at the grid would > >result in huge changes in the plate voltage, and the first > >amplification device was born.<< > > > >Um, that would be huge changes in the plate _current_, wouldn't it? > >Voltage doesn't sag much with a well-regulated plate supply. > > Yes . . . let's hope the writer stuck that in to see > if you were really reading and understanding the > words and the physics they described . . . > > > >Voltage changes occur across the plate _load R_, true... > > > >Be careful what you read on the 'net, right? > > EVERYTHING ANYONE WRITES is fair game for critical > review. Mistakes of gross error and misunderstanding > happen all the time. I think I've offered here on > the List, my own perceptions and appreciation for > standing at the front of the room in a good critical > review. It's win-win: either my design and ideas are > validated . . . or a bad idea is prevented from going > to production. > <snip> > > Bill, you get the gold star for the day in catching > the writer's error and bringing it to the attention > of interested individuals. Good catch! > > Bob . . . > > I think you guys are mixing up plate supply with plate voltage. The load resistor is between the supply and the plate. When the current increases, the voltage across the load resistor increases. Therefore the plate voltage goes down. There isn't anything wrong with the original description. Bob W. -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com First engine start 1/7/06 - Special Airworthiness Certificate 10/1/06 Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:28:17 AM PST US
    From: "John Danielson" <johnd@wlcwyo.com>
    Subject: Re: Another Banning?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Danielson" <johnd@wlcwyo.com> Totally agree with Bob's response. I just hate listening to these (they must be) liberals rattle on and on. John -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:41 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Another Banning? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:28 PM 10/26/2006 -0400, you wrote: >Nope. I don't agree with Barry's rant. He was grossly off track. >I had no idea what he was talking about during most of it. >I certainly don't remember his musings of earlier. I doubt >anyone does - except Barry. Regardless, I also don't agree to >the banning of people from this forum. They've been asked to leave other forums too Stan. >Barry contributes significantly to my learning and I like >to hear his comments. If I don't like what I hear, I >move on to the next individual's comments. I didn't like >Barry's recent rant. I moved on to the next entry. >Paul and George also contributed significantly to the discussions. >But, we'll never know what their latest contributions might entail. So anyone can say anything and it's okay with you as long as they sprinkle the occasional "nugget" of good stuff . . . and how do you KNOW it's good stuff? Not once did and of the gentlemen in question explain their respective rants in simple-ideas that anyone can grasp, appreciate and use based on personal understanding. If you find it sufficient to take their advice as-is, you're certainly free to communicate with them directly . . . but if they choose to pour out "data" without also being a teacher, then there's no basis for deducing that their offerings are anything but self serving propaganda. >I guess we'll all have to live with the bannings >until/unless we start a blog/forum of our own. You don't read well sir . . . nobody has been "banned" . . . but I'm told that that IS an option. But everything from giant corporations to new religions have been splintered off from other groups. As I mentioned, Usenet is ready, willing and able to accept whatever form and function of words you desire. Anyone can start a Usenet group and nobody here will discourage you from doing it if you find the atmosphere here stifling or oppressive. >Regarding your last paragraph, I didn't realize there >was a time before you got here. I must have joined after >you arrived. The Matronics forums existed long before the AeroElectric-List. Read the periodically published FAQ and mission statement published by Matt and you'll understand that my simple request for Barry to comport himself in the manner of a gentleman comes from Matronics List Policies. My question to you sir still stands. Is it your mission here to help us improve on the best we know how to do . . . or to belabor the fact that an unruly participant got his wrists slapped? Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:31:29 AM PST US
    Subject: GMA340 Wiring
    From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com> Doug at SteinAir answered this for me just two weeks ago. For my stack, Dual SL-30's and a 327, they have the ability to auto dim with a sensor. But they also have the ability to be connected to a manual dimmer if you want, just not both at the same time. There is a configuration option that you select. He recommended that I try it in the auto mode, and if I am not happy with it, then put it in manual for adjustment. Give Stein a call, and they are happy to work with you in setting this up, they are good people and willing to help anyone, that is why I chose to us them. Dan Lloyd RV10E (N289DT) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris Byrne Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 11:18 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: GMA340 Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne@bigpond.com> Listers I had my radio looms made for me. As well as the +12V for the GMA340 I have 1 or maybe 2 wires marked GMA340 lighting +12. Do I wire these direct to power or do they need to go to a lighting dimmer. Was hoping the GMA 340 had its own internal lighting dimmer. >From memory I also have the same situation with the GTX327 Chris Byrne SYDNEY


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:33:57 AM PST US
    From: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net>
    Subject: Re: Unusual opportunity
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David M." <ainut@hiwaay.net> Beware of the "metallurgy" of Chinese products. They are generally very bad. Not to mention they still murder Americans, threaten us with nuclear holocaust once a quarter, and still have our MD's working as shoe manufacturer slaves. David M. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List me > ed by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > On some other tasks, I've been using some platinum > resistance temperature sensors that are renowned for > their accuracy. I found some devices from China offered > on Ebay and ordered a few to try. See: > > http://tinyurl.com/y25z6x > > Of course I can't evaluate ruggedness without formal > testing but the electrical performance of these critters > is as-advertised and their appearance suggests good > construction. I just ordered a few more. A heads-up for > some of the techno-wiennies out there. > > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 06:56:53 PM PST US
    From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net> Eric, et al, I didn't want to write a dissertation on the original question asked which related to safe implementation of a fan for an enclosed spray room. As Eric has guided us, there is a plethora of information on explosions and explosive atmospheres. But my perception of the intent of the temporary spray booth was to successfully complete painting an airplane. Do we need to read multi-hundred page books to determine whether we can do this safely or not? Back to basics: 1) Assume we will use a flammable based paint. Otherwise, most of the rest of this discussion is not too important. 2) We will assume the enclosed area for painting is relatively air tight. If it is not, make sure there is no hot electrical outside the are within 5 ft. of the floor. 3) Further assume the purpose of the booth is to reduce dust that will contaminate the paint job, and to keep undesirable vapors and particles away from energy sources (static, electrical arcing as is switches, hot surfaces as in furnaces, or open flame as in a multitude of appliances) as may be appropriate. 4) I am assuming the builder of the booth is astute enough to know not to put electrical equipment inside the booth, including lights. He also has enough sense to ground discharge nozzles to prevent static buildup. This activity is not for idiots. 5) The "booth" should consist of 3 parts - the activity room, an air supply plenum, and an exhaust plenum. The interface between the supply plenum and the activity room will be at the top of the latter. The interface between the activity area and the exhaust plenum will be at floor level. Both interfaces will consist of filters. Both plenums will be fed from, or discharge to, outside the building which contains our booth. 6) Given 5, any fan of adequate volumetric capacity will work (remember, one complete air change every 5 min.). It will be switched on before entering the booth, and off after departing, because the switch is outside the booth. There are few reasons to be concerned with explosive vapors migrating to the fan because they are heavier than air and will exit via the exhaust plenum even if the fan is off. (One "safe" industrial approach is to eliminate electrical equipment within 5' of an open faced spray booth, and within 15' for a height of 5' off the floor.) The one exception I can think of would be related to airflow through the booth in the opposite direction caused by wind outside the building. Appropriate arrangement of the intake and exhaust areas should mitigate this (back draft dampers might be considered if this is perceived to be a problem). 7) With adequate airflow through the activity area, a general "fog" will not occur. If it does, stop spraying and figure out why! 8) Have you gotten zapped from static today? If so, you might want to postpone your spray activity to another day as one added precaution. If steps 1-8 are addressed, your chances for an explosion are next to nothing. These precautions are easy to take and make good sense. They also are not expensive. Going down the road of intrinsically safe or explosion proof equipment does not make good sense given the purpose of our temporary installation. If you think you need to do more than the above, I would highly recommend not using a flammable solvent based paint. Regards, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Sent: Thursday, 26 October, 2006 8:02 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > <emjones@charter.net> > > Guys!.....whoa. > > Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in > 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof > painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why. > > Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint > xplosion -"explosion > proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you > tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of > non-relevant stuff. > > Then answer the following-- > > 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup > similar to what you intend to use? > > 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural > gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame? > > My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may > elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch > is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray. > Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag. > > Again. Be safe but not silly. > > "Ring the bells that still can ring > Forget your perfect offering > There is a crack in everything > That's how the light gets in." > ---Leonard Cohen > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334 > > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 06:57:40 PM PST US
    From: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com>
    Subject: Off subject - auto battery setup
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charles Brame <chasb@satx.rr.com> There has been an interesting discussion of cheap PC-680 batteries (Oddessy knockoffs) on another list. The cost is less than $30. I'm not sure I want to run one in my airplane, but my Jeep needs a new battery. I'm considering wiring two of these cheap PC-680s in parallel and using them to replace the Sears lead acid auto battery in the Jeep. The result should be as potent as the Sears Battery for less money, take up less space, and avoid the cable corrosion problem that has plagued my Jeep ever since I bought it. Is there anything wrong with this idea? Charlie RV-6A N11CB San Antonio


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:58:58 PM PST US
    From: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
    Subject: Dynon - hall effect sensor issue
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com> Hello, I have a Dynon EMS-D10 unit in my RV-9A. I am using a hall effect sensor from a GRT EIS to measure current in the main wire from the battery to the main bus. This sensor is supported by Dynon and it works well with one glitch. Every 10 seconds (like clockwork), the amps reading shoots up to +99 amps for 1 second and then drifts back down to the correct value. In the 10 seconds that the correct value is displayed, I can vary the load and see accurate results on the meter. Any thoughts? There should be nothing that is sending a high current spike thru the cable. I have a message into Dynon, but thought I would try here, too. - Thanks


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:21:13 PM PST US
    From: "Bob Verwey " <bonanza@vodamail.co.za>
    Subject: Re: explosion proof fans
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Verwey " <bonanza@vodamail.co.za> Doug, this post goes into my archives. Some subtle points that I did not give much thought to! Thanks for the heads up! That is why I love the list- always learning! Bob Verwey A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Windhorn Sent: 28 October 2006 03:55 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doug Windhorn" --> <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net> Eric, et al, I didn't want to write a dissertation on the original question asked which related to safe implementation of a fan for an enclosed spray room. As Eric has guided us, there is a plethora of information on explosions and explosive atmospheres. But my perception of the intent of the temporary spray booth was to successfully complete painting an airplane. Do we need to read multi-hundred page books to determine whether we can do this safely or not? Back to basics: 1) Assume we will use a flammable based paint. Otherwise, most of the rest of this discussion is not too important. 2) We will assume the enclosed area for painting is relatively air tight. If it is not, make sure there is no hot electrical outside the are within 5 ft. of the floor. 3) Further assume the purpose of the booth is to reduce dust that will contaminate the paint job, and to keep undesirable vapors and particles away from energy sources (static, electrical arcing as is switches, hot surfaces as in furnaces, or open flame as in a multitude of appliances) as may be appropriate. 4) I am assuming the builder of the booth is astute enough to know not to put electrical equipment inside the booth, including lights. He also has enough sense to ground discharge nozzles to prevent static buildup. This activity is not for idiots. 5) The "booth" should consist of 3 parts - the activity room, an air supply plenum, and an exhaust plenum. The interface between the supply plenum and the activity room will be at the top of the latter. The interface between the activity area and the exhaust plenum will be at floor level. Both interfaces will consist of filters. Both plenums will be fed from, or discharge to, outside the building which contains our booth. 6) Given 5, any fan of adequate volumetric capacity will work (remember, one complete air change every 5 min.). It will be switched on before entering the booth, and off after departing, because the switch is outside the booth. There are few reasons to be concerned with explosive vapors migrating to the fan because they are heavier than air and will exit via the exhaust plenum even if the fan is off. (One "safe" industrial approach is to eliminate electrical equipment within 5' of an open faced spray booth, and within 15' for a height of 5' off the floor.) The one exception I can think of would be related to airflow through the booth in the opposite direction caused by wind outside the building. Appropriate arrangement of the intake and exhaust areas should mitigate this (back draft dampers might be considered if this is perceived to be a problem). 7) With adequate airflow through the activity area, a general "fog" will not occur. If it does, stop spraying and figure out why! 8) Have you gotten zapped from static today? If so, you might want to postpone your spray activity to another day as one added precaution. If steps 1-8 are addressed, your chances for an explosion are next to nothing. These precautions are easy to take and make good sense. They also are not expensive. Going down the road of intrinsically safe or explosion proof equipment does not make good sense given the purpose of our temporary installation. If you think you need to do more than the above, I would highly recommend not using a flammable solvent based paint. Regards, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Sent: Thursday, 26 October, 2006 8:02 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: explosion proof fans > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > <emjones@charter.net> > > Guys!.....whoa. > > Far be it for me to be the voice of reason. (I was 18-years old in > 1965...you get the picture.) But this discussion of explosion proof > painting is Way Overboard and potentially dangerous. Here's why. > > Copy and paste this search field into Google: paint > xplosion -"explosion > proof" -projector -tshirt -Perplex -sony -art -youtube -"you > tube" -photoshop -"T-shirt" The minus terms eliminate a lot of > non-relevant stuff. > > Then answer the following-- > > 1) Do you have ANY knowledge of a painting accident/explosion with a setup > similar to what you intend to use? > > 2) Do published reports cite extenuating reasons for the accident--natural > gas-fired heaters, pools of solvent, toluene, open flame? > > My concern is that list reader will be so afraid of fans that they may > elect not to risk using them. ANY box fan will be fine. The on/off switch > is the only sparker. Don't allow the booth to fill with a cloud of spray. > Don't spray solvent through the gun into the open. Use a rag. > > Again. Be safe but not silly. > > "Ring the bells that still can ring > Forget your perfect offering > There is a crack in everything > That's how the light gets in." > ---Leonard Cohen > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge, MA 01550 > (508) 764-2072 > emjones@charter.net > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70334#70334 > > >




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