---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 10/29/06: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:42 AM - Re Dead Horses.....Split Rockers (Dustin Paulson) 2. 05:02 AM - Dead Horses.....Spit Rockers (Dustin Paulson) 3. 05:36 AM - Missing message text (dead horse topic) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 4. 05:44 AM - Missing Text (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 5. 05:52 AM - Re: Dead Horses.....Spit Rockers (Steve Thomas) 6. 09:11 AM - Exp_Bus redux (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 09:13 AM - Back-up Alternator () 8. 09:35 AM - Re: Z12 Architecture (Dave & Brenda Emond) 9. 09:56 AM - Re: Back-up Alternator (Dj Merrill) 10. 10:42 AM - Re: Back-up Alternator (Richard E. Tasker) 11. 10:51 AM - Re: Back-up Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Z12 Architecture (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 04:01 PM - Comcast Was Blocking Matronics Email Lists... (Matt Dralle) 14. 06:07 PM - Off Topic - Source for wire wrap pins (Paul McAllister) 15. 06:49 PM - Tefzel ties () 16. 07:14 PM - Re: Off Topic - Source for wire wrap pins (Richard E. Tasker) 17. 08:37 PM - Big Red Split Rockers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:42:48 AM PST US From: "Dustin Paulson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re Dead Horses.....Split Rockers ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:10 AM PST US From: "Dustin Paulson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dead Horses.....Spit Rockers ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:30 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Missing message text (dead horse topic) Here is cut-paste of Dwights message that came through blank on the A-list (at least it did to me and him). I e-mailed him direct and he sent to me. Added here to further the discussion. Mark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dwights intended posting: I'm not sure what's happening, but I reposted today after seeing my text didn't go through, but apparently something at Matronics is stripping my text. Anyway here is what I tried to post. Maybe you can have better luck than me! For some reason the text from the message I sent to the forum yesterday didn't go through. So here it is again. Bob, I agree with some of the points you provide in your assessment of the split rocker master switch, but I also think there were a few points that are relevant that were not included which may favor this switch over the S700-2-10. 1) The uniqueness of the split rocker vs. the toggle switches on the panel helps distinguish it as one you will not normally be operating except at start-up and shut-down, lessening the chances of unintentional use during a high stress situation in a panel full of similar style switches. I've heard it suggested that you should try to break the switches up into grouping of no more that 3-4 toggles in a group, but some panel styles don't lend themselves to having that much real estate available for switches, so using a different style switch can help accomplish the same result. 2) The S700-2-10 itself is a unique enough switch that isn't stocked in most places that normally carry toggle switches. If a failure of it occurs while on a cross country trip, it is probably less likely to be found at any average airport with mechanical services available, than a split rocker master that is commonly used in most certified aircraft. 3) While it shouldn't be the overriding concern, it is one of the basis of this forum to build economically as well as safe. I don't know the history of the pricing on the S700-2-10 but currently B&C's price on it is $19.50. With a quick Google search for the split master, I found a price range of $15 - $19. I have gleaned much from both your book and this forum, and hope to be able to learn only a small fraction of what you have to offer, but I think your bias against split master switches doesn't warrant quite the level of disdain you appear to have for it. I hope you will take these comments in the manner it was intended......another viewpoint, hopefully providing some additional data points to consider in the decision making process. Thanks for a great forum! Dustin Paulson Building a GlaStar with a split master. http://www.bandc.biz/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?11X358218#s700-2-10 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/cessnasplit.php http://www.aerocraftparts.com/ItemForm.aspx?item=S-1994-1-1&Category=38940ec0- b260-4e9f-a23c-b80ff8e89c67 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:56 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Missing Text "Here is cut-paste of Dwights message..." Ooops- meant "Dustin"- caffeine deficiency I suppose... (sorry!) Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:28 AM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead Horses.....Spit Rockers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas Dustin, There is something about the way your Outlook Express is encoding the message that causes it to appear blank. I can read your message just fine if I view as raw source. You might try changing your Outlook encoding to be "Plain Text". Best Regards, Steve Thomas ____________________________________________________________________ On Oct 29, 2006, at 4:59 AM, Dustin Paulson wrote: > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Exp_Bus redux --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Comments/Questions: Bob, bought your book and am reading it. Also got >somehow a copy of EXP-Bus 99 discussion in which your view of EXP-Bus was >not overly favorable. Am building a no vacume IFR F1 Rocket with Advanced >avionics combined engine/efis , Dynon10 EFIS backup, ps 8000(need marker >beacon or would use yuour isolator), becker transponder and com2 >DigiflightIIVSGV and a motion800 with somebody's moving map. > >Have bought the fuseblock vs breaker concept but think the EXP-BUS is a >posibility - have you changed your mind in the last 6 years. >Also - found one good case for circut breaker - Lowered the flaps on my >210 a few years ago a bit over suggested speed and they wouldn't >retract. Somehow had presence of mind to check circut breaker -was poped >too much force on motor due to speed. Reset and no further drama. The EXP_Bus probably performs as advertised and is not 'unsafe' . . . but it's what-you-see-is-what-you-get. Too many switches, too few switches, doesn't offer an e-bus . . . you're stuck. If the EXP_Bus does exactly what you want, then no problem. If you want ot do something different, it's not easy. Further, the cost of the Exp_Bus is about 2x what it costs to do EXACTLY what you want with discrete parts. Further, since you've purchased all your parts individually, you know right were to get spares for future maintenance. I think the EXP_Bus is poor value and restricts options for exploiting any of the architectures in the book. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:46 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Back-up Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 10/29/2006 Responding to a posting From: "JACK LOCKAMY" Hello Jack, Thank you for sharing your story with us. I sympathize with your situation and congratulate you on its successful outcome. You wrote: "Bottom Line: Use the IDENT button on your transponder to acknowledge radio calls rather than transmit on the radio and use valuable battery reserves." I'd like to explore this recommendation a bit further. First having the radio in receive only mode by not transmitting would definitely conserve battery. But having the transponder on continuously would consume battery at some higher rate than when OFF or STANDBY, even when not IDENTING, because the transponder is being constantly interrogated and responding to external interrogators. Maybe the underlying assumption in your recommendation is that: A) FAR 91.215 could require one to have the transponder on, and B) ATC needs your transponder ON and the IDENTING in order to provide any useful services, including air traffic separation. I guess my question is whether or not there could be a circumstance where one would prefer to have the radio on and transmitting only as needed while keeping the transponder OFF or in STANDBY in order to better conserve battery? OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge. PS: A review of the Odyssey battery specs shows that the PC 625 has more overall amperage capability than the PC 680. I wonder if we should not switch to the PC 625 at the next battery change over? http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm PPS: Regarding using Vans recommended alternators: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Time: 02:37:00 PM PST US From: "JACK LOCKAMY" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Back-up Alternator Last Thursday, after 245 hours on my RV-7A (0-320/160 HP), I suffered my SECOND, Van's 60-AMP, internally regulated alternator, failure! (The first alternator failed at 160 hrs!) I have a cooling blast tube aimed at the rear of the alternator and still don't know why these alternators keep failing. Since it was a NAPA rebuilt, Lester alternator #14684 with a three-year warranty, I was able to get the alternator replaced today for FREE! I fly over mountainous terrain, IFR and occasionally at night, For this reason, I am concerned with alternator failures and have decided to install a back-up alternator on the un-used vacuum pump pad on my Lycoming 0-320/conical mount engine.... Question: How much does the B&C SD-20 weigh? I normally run with about 14-18 AMP loads and figure I need the SD-20 instead of the SD-8 (8-10 AMPS but lighter weight?) to have a reliable back-up alternator for my electrical load during night/IFR flight. Question: I have my -7A wired using Bob's Z-11 architecture with a Van's 60-AMP internally regulated alternator. If I purchase and install the B&C SD-20 alternator, do I connect it to the Dynon EMS-10 firewall mounted shunt or connect the SD-20 to the Odyssey PC-680 battery directly in case the Van's recommended alternator takes another crap? Spoke with Gus at Van's on Thursday and wasn't able to determine if there was a problem with their wiring directions or if the #14684 alternators were the problem here. BTW.... the Odyssey PC-680 battery kept me flying for approx. 1:45 minutes after the alternator failed. I was using flight following as usual and informed them that I had an alternator failure and would prefer to use the IDENT button on my King KT-76A transponder to acknowledge freq changes and/or traffic calls rather than use the juice in the battery when transmitting on the Comm-1 radio. This worked extremely well and I wasn't forced to use un-necessary volts using my transmit button on Comm-1. Using this method of acknowledgement, I was able to conserve valuable battery voltage for almost 2-hours and I landed with 11.5 volts in the PC-680. NOTE: I was prepared to squawk 7600 and had informed 'Center' that if I went NORDO (No Radio), I would squawk 7600, and would be expecting light signals (flashing green light?) from Camarillo Tower for landing permission. If you inform Center of your problem, they will assist. When I first informed Albuquerque Center of my alternator problem, the controller asked if I was declaring an emergency. My reply was "No... I have enough battery voltage to maintain flight (dual Slick Magnetos) and MONITOR Comm-1". I was switched to more than 6-7 different sector controllers and not once was I required to key the radio... just hit the IDENT button on the transponder and each controller acknowledged.... "Ident observed". Saves the juice.... I had the TRIO Avionics A/P, ALTRAK ALT-HOLD A/P, ICOM-A200 VHF Transceiver, DYNON EFIS-D10, DYNON EMS-D10 Engine monitor, King KT-76A Transponder and AvMAP EKP-IV Moving map GPS running the entire time.... Bottom Line: Use the IDENT button on your transponder to acknowledge radio calls rather than transmit on the radio and use valuable battery reserves. Jack Lockamy Camarillo, CA RV-7A N174JL 245 hrs www.jacklockamy.com jacklockamy@verizon,net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:38 AM PST US From: "Dave & Brenda Emond" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z12 Architecture --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave & Brenda Emond" I have gone with the Z-12 architecture. B&C 60 Amp main and 20amp standby as well as the necessary controllers as per Bobs architecture. How does one test this setup?? I have heard that should I pull the field breaker on the main alternator( with the engine running), the standby unit will come into play. Must I leave the 60amp off line until the engine is switched off, before re setting?? Dave Emond RV 10 - #40159 Finish Kit ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Back-up Alternator From: Dj Merrill --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill JACK LOCKAMY wrote: > Bottom Line: Use the IDENT button on your transponder to acknowledge > radio calls rather than transmit on the radio and use valuable battery > reserves. Someone please correct me if this is incorrect, but aren't most transponders something like 200-250 watts transmit power, and most comm radios somewhere around 5-10 watts transmit power? If so, wouldn't it use more battery power to have the transponder transmit versus the comm radio? Thanks, -Dj -- Dj Merrill Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/ "TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation" ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:44 AM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Back-up Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" True, except that the transponder transmits for microseconds while the comm transmits for seconds. Therefore, the average power used in transmissions of the transponder is much less than the comm. On the other hand, if the use of the transmission capabilities of either of these devices would make the difference in making it to your planned destination or not, then you better get on the ground right now! Dick Tasker Dj Merrill wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > >JACK LOCKAMY wrote: > > > >>Bottom Line: Use the IDENT button on your transponder to acknowledge >>radio calls rather than transmit on the radio and use valuable battery >>reserves. >> >> > > > Someone please correct me if this is incorrect, but aren't most >transponders something like 200-250 watts transmit power, and most comm >radios somewhere around 5-10 watts transmit power? If so, wouldn't it >use more battery power to have the transponder transmit versus the comm >radio? > >Thanks, > >-Dj > > > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Back-up Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:55 PM 10/29/2006 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > >JACK LOCKAMY wrote: > > > Bottom Line: Use the IDENT button on your transponder to acknowledge > > radio calls rather than transmit on the radio and use valuable battery > > reserves. > > > Someone please correct me if this is incorrect, but aren't most >transponders something like 200-250 watts transmit power, and most comm >radios somewhere around 5-10 watts transmit power? If so, wouldn't it >use more battery power to have the transponder transmit versus the comm >radio? The transponder speaks in very narrow pulses arranged so as to digitally identify you and report your altitude. This is accomplished at a very low duty cycle . . . so while PEAK power is on the order of 100-200 watts, the AVERAGE power is less that what's consumed by most COMM transmitters while talking. Having said that, the COMM transmitter is also very low duty cycle. You may LISTEN to the radio for 1 hour with at say 100 mA for a total power consumption of 0.1a x 11.5v x 3600s is 4140 watt seconds. Your transmitter may raise this current to say 2 amps. Assume you speak for 60 seconds total out of an hour and we have 2 x 11.5 x 60 or 1380 watt-seconds. The 17 a.h. battery supplying your e-bus being discharged at say 4 amps is good for about 3 hours so 11.5v x 4a x 3hrs x 3600s = 496,800 watt seconds. So, it's easy to see that if one has scaled their e-bus loads to take advantage of say 75% of the battery in 3 hours (372,000 watt-seconds) then the addition of 3 minutes of "mic time" to the mix increases total energy expenditure by about 0.3% . . . a trivial portion of the total budget. The same mistake is commonly made when considering energy needed to crank an engine . . . 200+ amps for say 10 seconds is only a tad over 20,000 watt-seconds. Only about 5% of the total energy contained in a 17 a.h. battery. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z12 Architecture --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:32 PM 10/29/2006 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave & Brenda Emond" > > > >I have gone with the Z-12 architecture. B&C 60 Amp main and 20amp standby >as well as the necessary controllers as per Bobs architecture. > >How does one test this setup?? I have heard that should I pull the field >breaker on the main alternator( with the engine running), the standby unit >will come into play. > >Must I leave the 60amp off line until the engine is switched off, before >re setting?? You need to order the Standby Regulator to go with the SD-20. This regulator gets set for about 1 volt below normal alternator output voltage (13.2) See http://www.bandc.biz/Bc217.pdf After you start the engine, leave the main alternator off and the SD-20 should pick up the load and the "sb alt loaded" light will come on showing it's on line. Bus voltage should be about 13.2 at the point. Turn the main alternator on, the light should go out and the bus voltage rises to 14.2. See also: http://www.bandc.biz/410Finaltest.html http://www.bandc.biz/BC410-installinstructions.pdf Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:55 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Comcast Was Blocking Matronics Email Lists... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers (Specifically Comcast Listers), For about the last two days, Comcast was blocking incoming email from the Matronics Email Lists because their spam filters thought the mail was spam. I was able to finally get them to lift the block about 3pm PST 10/29/2006 and it appears that people on Comcast are receiving List messages again. If you are a Comcast user, you might want to email them and express your displeasure with their Spam blocking policy, particularly as it relates to "matronics.com". Sorry for the hassle... Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:51 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic - Source for wire wrap pins --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I am looking for a source for single square wire wrap posts for soldering onto a PCB. I have trolled through Digikey without any luck. I'd appreciate a referral if anyone knows of one. Thanks, Paul ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:12 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tefzel ties From: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: I was scrolling through Stein Air site, and notice they sell tefzel ties. http://www.steinair.com/cableties.htm#HEAT%20RESISTANT> Has anyone used these where black nylon failed with good sucess? Other comments? Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:24 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Off Topic - Source for wire wrap pins --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Not sure exactly what you want. If you want a single wirewrap pin that can be swaged into a hole in a PCB or breadboard (like you used to be able to find in many places) I do not know where to find them any more (except in my miscellaneous parts bin). If you are willing to settle for a strip of pins that you can break or cut apart then these might work for you (they are 0.025 sq. pins) : http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=929834-05-36virtualkey51750000virtualkey517-834-05-36 They are available in several different pin lengths and in gold or tin. If the URL above doesn't work then go to www.mouser.com and enter 517-834-05-36 in the search window. Dick Tasker Paul McAllister wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" > >Hi all, > >I am looking for a source for single square wire wrap posts for soldering >onto a PCB. I have trolled through Digikey without any luck. I'd >appreciate a referral if anyone knows of one. > >Thanks, Paul > Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. -- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Big Red Split Rockers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" For some reason the text from the message I sent to the forum yesterday didn't go through. So here it is again. Bob, I agree with some of the points you provide in your assessment of the split rocker master switch, but I also think there were a few points that are relevant that were not included which may favor this switch over the S700-2-10. 1) The uniqueness of the split rocker vs. the toggle switches on the panel helps distinguish it as one you will not normally be operating except at start-up and shut-down, lessening the chances of unintentional use during a high stress situation in a panel full of similar style switches. I've heard it suggested that you should try to break the switches up into grouping of no more that 3-4 toggles in a group, but some panel styles don't lend themselves to having that much real estate available for switches, so using a different style switch can help accomplish the same result. I've been working in GA light and medium sized aircraft for over 40 years and we've got dozens of switches in every airplane that look just like the battery and generator master switches . . . I've never been made aware of any complaint for not making these or any other switches 'unique' in appearance. 2) The S700-2-10 itself is a unique enough switch that isn't stocked in most places that normally carry toggle switches. If a failure of it occurs while on a cross country trip, it is probably less likely to be found at any average airport with mechanical services available, than a split rocker master that is commonly used in most certified aircraft. But suppose you use a sprinkling of 2-5, 2-50 maybe a 1-8 and one of those switches fails on a trip? Your just as unlikely to find one of these either. Suppose you DO crap the battery master in ANY form, how would you get the airplane home? I lost the keys to an airplane once and got it home easy. I would hope that because YOU have built and understand your airplane that the simple failure of any component including the battery-master isn't going to be more than a minor inconvenience . . . 3) While it shouldn't be the overriding concern, it is one of the basis of this forum to build economically as well as safe. I don't know the history of the pricing on the S700-2-10 but currently B&C's price on it is $19.50. With a quick Google search for the split master, I found a price range of $15 - $19. If a couple of bux drive you this hard, then by all means . . . cut the square hole instead of drilling a nice round one. I have gleaned much from both your book and this forum, and hope to be able to learn only a small fraction of what you have to offer, but I think your bias against split master switches doesn't warrant quite the level of disdain you appear to have for it. I hope you will take these comments in the manner it was intended......another viewpoint, hopefully providing some additional data points to consider in the decision making process. Been through all of them . . . many times over the years and it still doesn't make sense to me to have one bright red rectangular switch battery-alternator-master stand out from all the switches of any other style. The BIG guys don't do it. Even the folks who use that switch in production aircraft put it in the same row as all the rest of the rocker switches. Thanks for a great forum! You're most welcome. Bob . . .