Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:18 AM - Measurement Idea (Bob Lee)
2. 07:03 AM - Re: Measurement Idea (Ken)
3. 10:20 AM - Re: Measurement Idea (Bob Lee)
4. 01:33 PM - Re: Measurement Idea (stick on ?) ()
5. 03:00 PM - Re: Measurement Idea (stick on ?) (Jim Baker)
6. 04:14 PM - Re: The po' boy's data acquisition system. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 05:08 PM - Re: Garmin manuals on PDF file (CHAD FELDPOUCH)
8. 05:32 PM - Re: Re: Garmin manuals on PDF file (John Morgensen)
9. 05:40 PM - Re: Re: Garmin manuals on PDF file (John Morgensen)
10. 06:23 PM - ICOM A-200 Install ()
11. 07:11 PM - Re: Re: Garmin manuals on PDF file (Bill Boyd)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Measurement Idea |
I have just finished rereading the Connection and it is amazing what you
learn when you go through another cycle of education. Of particular
interest to me this time through was a comment Bob made at the end of the
Temperature Chapter regarding using a switch box and multiple home made
thermocouples to measure critical temperatures during flyoff. There were
several items that he suggested that I had not even considered. As an
example: alternator stator temp, alternator regulator temp are two he
suggested. I quickly extrapolated to all the things I would like to know
like electronic ignition coil temp, and then there is the in and out oil
temp and air temp to evaluate my oil cooler installation. Next I thought of
the intercooler in and out charge and cooling air temps. The list for my
turbocharged engine quickly rose to thirty some odd items to evaluate
temperature on during the test flight phase. I did some research in the
AeroElectircic archives and found a few suggestions for PC data collection
interfaces but when I looked at the cost per port my data collection system
was easily over a thousand dollars with an assembeled price point of
$30/port.
So now my design problem became how do I reduce the price per port for a 30
port temperature data collection device? I refined what I wanted to know to
be three phases of temperature: OK (green), Marginal (yellow), and BAD
(red). So now I'm thinking graph segment LEDs and a home made thermocouple
driver. I plan to use one AD595 in therometer mode as the 0degC reference
point and multiple LM324 quad-op-amps to resolve the thermocouple input with
the appropriate gain to yield 10mv/degC. Then use additional op-amps to
detect and drive the green, yellow and red temperatures for the particular
port.
Right now I'm thinking that this will be a perminent part of the aircraft to
watch out for temperature performance degraditon and warn me what to look
into with more detailed instrumentation in the future. If a particular
chanel shows a problem I can attach that thermocouple to my EIS system and
collect real time temperatures about that item of interest until things are
resolved. After the problem is solved the chanel goes back to the green,
yellow, red annunciator to insure proper long term performance.
I have built a schematic using ExpressPCB software planning to have them
make the prototype PCBs for this project. I have attached a jpg diagram of
the schematic for peer review. The price per port comes out to under
$5/port with this system for thirty or more ports.
Before I put this idea into hardware does anyone see anthing wrong with the
logic?
Regards,
Bob Lee
N52BL KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!
PS I know I left the capacitors off the voltage regulator!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Measurement Idea |
This won't be helpful but for a little devil's advocate...
Why monitor something unless you know what the temperature should be?
Even with the EIS you may find your normal temperature ranges to be
larger than expected and you don't want nuisance flashing red light
warnings in flight or you will be training yourself to ignore them or
cancel them out of habit. With my subaru I can tell you that the more
instrumentation you have, the more questions come up, and the less
flying you will do. There are many "experts" around that will quote
numbers for things that they have never actually measured or numbers
from uncalibrated sensors. It's an educational adventure but don't over
do it if you'd rather be flying than tinkering. Since we have installed
a fault tolerant system, does it matter what the alternator stator temp
or regulator temp is? If failures start appearing then it would be
appropriate to investigate but is it worth all this extra effort up
front and will it be a possibly dangerous inflight distraction?
With more than 3 or 4 items there is little chance of collecting
meaningful data unless it is automatically recorded for later perusal.
Recording can be as simple as a video camera if you put all those
displays on the panel. I used the four CHT inputs on my EIS to look at
various things that I was curious about initially but I have no real
further use for that information. In fact I had little further use for
most of it once I got past the ground running phase of testing. Many
under cowl temps are too low to get accurate data from a thermocouple.
My EIS reads at least 30*C too low at 90*C thermocouple temps. Your
circuitry is likely to suffer additional inaccuracies as the ambient
temperature changes. All of my aux inputs (non thermocouple) on the EIS
had to be tweaked from the recommended parameters when I calibrated the
sensors for the ranges of interest.
Ken
Bob Lee wrote:
>I have just finished rereading the Connection and it is amazing what you
>learn when you go through another cycle of education. Of particular
>interest to me this time through was a comment Bob made at the end of the
>Temperature Chapter regarding using a switch box and multiple home made
>thermocouples to measure critical temperatures during flyoff. There were
>several items that he suggested that I had not even considered. As an
>example: alternator stator temp, alternator regulator temp are two he
>suggested. I quickly extrapolated to all the things I would like to know
>like electronic ignition coil temp, and then there is the in and out oil
>temp and air temp to evaluate my oil cooler installation. Next I thought of
>the intercooler in and out charge and cooling air temps. The list for my
>turbocharged engine quickly rose to thirty some odd items to evaluate
>temperature on during the test flight phase. I did some research in the
>AeroElectircic archives and found a few suggestions for PC data collection
>interfaces but when I looked at the cost per port my data collection system
>was easily over a thousand dollars with an assembeled price point of
>$30/port.
>
>So now my design problem became how do I reduce the price per port for a 30
>port temperature data collection device? I refined what I wanted to know to
>be three phases of temperature: OK (green), Marginal (yellow), and BAD
>(red). So now I'm thinking graph segment LEDs and a home made thermocouple
>driver. I plan to use one AD595 in therometer mode as the 0degC reference
>point and multiple LM324 quad-op-amps to resolve the thermocouple input with
>the appropriate gain to yield 10mv/degC. Then use additional op-amps to
>detect and drive the green, yellow and red temperatures for the particular
>port.
>
>Right now I'm thinking that this will be a perminent part of the aircraft to
>watch out for temperature performance degraditon and warn me what to look
>into with more detailed instrumentation in the future. If a particular
>chanel shows a problem I can attach that thermocouple to my EIS system and
>collect real time temperatures about that item of interest until things are
>resolved. After the problem is solved the chanel goes back to the green,
>yellow, red annunciator to insure proper long term performance.
>
>I have built a schematic using ExpressPCB software planning to have them
>make the prototype PCBs for this project. I have attached a jpg diagram of
>the schematic for peer review. The price per port comes out to under
>$5/port with this system for thirty or more ports.
>
>Before I put this idea into hardware does anyone see anthing wrong with the
>logic?
>
>Regards,
>
>Bob Lee
>N52BL KR2
>Suwanee, GA
>91% done only 65% to go!
>
>PS I know I left the capacitors off the voltage regulator!
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Measurement Idea |
Ken Lehman wrote:
"Why monitor something unless you know what the temperature should be?"
Ken,
I think that the major issue with component failures in homebuilt aircraft
is the impact of installation on actual temperatures seen by various
components. As an example, I know that the coil temperature of my
electronic ignition should not exceed 190F from manufacture recomendation.
Why should I wait till I have an ignition failure to work on the cooling?
Doesn't it make more sence to look at the temperature and take action before
a failure occurs? At $5/port to keep an eye on the electronic igniton it is
cheap insurance against a $200 bill for replacing a cooked ignition. If the
cooling hose were to come off the overtemp indication could clue me to
change to the backup ignition and save the primary ignition for a simple
hose replacement rather than an expensive ignition replacement. Most of the
people that use their experimental aircraft have several teething problems
in the beginning. I happen to agree with 'lectric Bob that measuring your
temperatures during the flyoff period is better than letting failures lead
your actions.
But then again, everything I say might be wrong?
Regards,
Bob Lee
N52BL KR2
Suwanee, GA
91% done only 65% to go!
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Measurement Idea (stick on ?) |
Hello Bob
What about using stick on temperature indicators? Turn black to show max
temp achieved.
If something is getting too hot, put on a new strip or set of dots after
cooling mod.
Ron Parigoris
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Measurement Idea (stick on ?) |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
> What about using stick on temperature indicators? Turn black to show max
> temp achieved.
>
> If something is getting too hot, put on a new strip or set of dots after
> cooling mod.
Too bad thermal IR equipment costs an arm-and-a-leg. Mount
the camera under the cowl and do a full temperature survey. I
found a couple of sites that had hacked cheap cameras with IR
filters but the results were less than spectacular....interesting,
nonetheless.
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: The po' boy's data acquisition system. |
At 08:16 AM 11/12/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>I have just finished rereading the Connection and it is amazing what you
>learn when you go through another cycle of education. Of particular
>interest to me this time through was a comment Bob made at the end of the
>Temperature Chapter regarding using a switch box and multiple home made
>thermocouples to measure critical temperatures during flyoff. There were
>several items that he suggested that I had not even considered. As an
>example: alternator stator temp, alternator regulator temp are two he
>suggested. I quickly extrapolated to all the things I would like to know
>like electronic ignition coil temp, and then there is the in and out oil
>temp and air temp to evaluate my oil cooler installation. Next I thought of
>the intercooler in and out charge and cooling air temps. The list for my
>turbocharged engine quickly rose to thirty some odd items to evaluate
>temperature on during the test flight phase. I did some research in the
>AeroElectircic archives and found a few suggestions for PC data collection
>interfaces but when I looked at the cost per port my data collection system
>was easily over a thousand dollars with an assembeled price point of
>$30/port.
>
>So now my design problem became how do I reduce the price per port for a 30
>port temperature data collection device? I refined what I wanted to know to
>be three phases of temperature:
<snip>
First, you're to be commended for having the curiosity to go find
things out and convert them to numbers for the benefit of yourself
and others with whom you share the data.
The box of "tinker-toys" is huge and the tradeoffs options not much
smaller. From my own perspective, the commodity that drives most of
my decisions is time-to-first data. I DO fabricate a lot of specialized
fixtures and circuits. However if I can buy some pre-fabricated
modules and perhaps supplement them with fabricated interfaces, some
combination of these represents the most economical approach.
First, allow me to suggest that while your three-light approach is
certainly better than nothing, it's like working in a base ten
world where only the digits 0, 3 and 7 are permitted. Further, it
presupposes that you have a good idea of where the switch points
for each of the lights should be placed.
If I were doing this for RAC and needed to be up and running
in a few days, I'd consider getting 1 to 4 a/d modules from
http://www.weedtech.com/
Check out the 8 channel, 12-bit analog input module with 4.095
volts full scale input with 1 mv resolution. This critter
is $69 for a $8.50/channel cost. Team these modules with a
thermocouple to analog conditioner board using AD597ARZ chips.
The artwork for a mating board is at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/ECB_Artwork/9804_320-1A_KTC_Board
This board is designed to "piggyback" onto a Weeder analog board
using the same hole pattern as the Weeder's d-sub mounting screws.
So, for about $130 in materials, one can have an 8-channel, thermocouple
interface module that is easy to talk to with a laptop temperature
recording utility. You can calibrate your installation to plus/minus
1 degree C or so. With just one module and as many TC harnesses as
you wish, you can change from one group of 8 temperatures for one
phase of the testing to another group of 8 just by unplugging and
re-plugging the appropriate harness.
The TC chip module teamed with the Weeder board and a cheap
PC now joins in your arsenal of investigative tools with a
capability of recording and sharing real numbers. I use out-
of-date lap tops running Power Basic under DOS 6.22. The last one
I bought cost me about $100 off ebay.
I've not proofed the ECB yet . . . but if you're interested,
I'll order some and get one stuffed up. I've been intending
to add this board to my own toolbox for some time to replace
a couple of older, hand-wired TC signal conditioners I've been
using over the years. You can see one of my last projects at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Data_Acquisition
The forth picture in the series shows the hand-wired thermocouple
conditioners that I want to replace with the surface-mount,
ECB assembly.
This is perhaps a bit more expensive than your proposal
. . . but $time$ to first-data will be shorter.
Better yet, the data will be RECORDED for later analysis
and sharing. Further, the Weeder a/d board channels can be
pressed into service for measuring and recording lots of other
interesting numbers about how your airplane operates. Even
if you need to go find a laptop, you should be able to assemble
this suite of test equipment for under $300.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | re: Garmin manuals on PDF file |
Does anyone know of a website where you can download more Garmin install manuals
on pdf like the one that was on here a couple days ago for the GTX 327 ? I
am in need of install manuals for the Garmin 530 , 430 , GMA 340 and the GTX
330 on pdf .
Thanks,
Chad Feldpouch...
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: re: Garmin manuals on PDF file |
How about www.garmin.com?
john
CHAD FELDPOUCH wrote:
> Does anyone know of a website where you can download more Garmin install
> manuals on pdf like the one that was on here a couple days ago for the
> GTX 327 ? I am in need of install manuals for the Garmin 530 , 430 ,
> GMA 340 and the GTX 330 on pdf .
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chad Feldpouch...
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: re: Garmin manuals on PDF file |
Dan Checkoway's RV-7 Project is a good place to look:
http://www.rvproject.com/garmin/
john
CHAD FELDPOUCH wrote:
> Does anyone know of a website where you can download more Garmin install
> manuals on pdf like the one that was on here a couple days ago for the
> GTX 327 ? I am in need of install manuals for the Garmin 530 , 430 ,
> GMA 340 and the GTX 330 on pdf .
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chad Feldpouch...
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 10
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| Subject: | ICOM A-200 Install |
If I install an ICOM A-200 in my Aeronca Champ can I legally have an A&P sign off
the installation??
I am not an A&P but have done many radios installations in experimentals.
John
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: re: Garmin manuals on PDF file |
Try this:
http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/Downloads/howtogetagarminmanual.htm
On 11/12/06, CHAD FELDPOUCH <1pouch@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Does anyone know of a website where you can download more Garmin install
> manuals on pdf like the one that was on here a couple days ago for the GTX
> 327 ? I am in need of install manuals for the Garmin 530 , 430 , GMA 340
> and the GTX 330 on pdf .
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chad Feldpouch...
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>
>
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