---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/17/06: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:40 AM - List Value... (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:51 AM - Re: Bonding to Aluminum (Rodney Dunham) 2. 06:08 AM - Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads (Bill Steer) 3. 06:33 AM - Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:17 AM - Re: GEMS Optical switch (John Burnaby) 5. 12:04 PM - Re: Temperature units puzzle (Eric M. Jones) 6. 12:58 PM - NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... (Greg Campbell) 7. 06:10 PM - Re: Re: Temperature units puzzle (Kelly McMullen) 8. 06:13 PM - Re: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads (Ken) 9. 10:06 PM - Re: metric salvation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:40:01 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: List Value... If you look forward to checking your List email everyday (and a lot of you have written to say that you do!), then you're probably getting at least 0 or 0 worth of Entertainment from the Lists each year. You'd pay twice that for a subscription to some lame magazine or even a dinner out. Isn't the List worth at least that much to you? Wouldn't it be great if you could pay that same amount and get a well-managed media source free of advertising, SPAM, and viruses? Come to think of it, you do... Won't you please take a minute to make your Contribution today and support YOUR Lists? Contribution Page: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Again, I want to say THANK YOU to everyone that has made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser!! These Lists are made possible exclusively through YOUR generosity!! Thank you for your support! Matt Dralle Email List Admin. ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:25 AM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bonding to Aluminum Barry, Thanks for coming back to the group. I missed you. The timing of your post is amazing. I've recently been doing a lot of internet "research" on the topic of mobile HF radio installation. The topic of grounding is BIG in that application. Further, the issue of bonding to Aluminum is critical. Your advice to brighten the connector surfaces and use star washers is just what I'm reading there too. Also, some recommend using antioxidant grease on the connections. I am told that Aluminum oxidizes so rapidly that one is advised to wire brush the contacts with the grease on (!) thus preventing oxidation during the install and in the future. What is your take on this advice? Rodney in Tennessee PS: Barry, I don't think you're "Chop'd Liver". I think you're a thoroughbred. And I never met a thoroughbred that ain't high strung. I appreciate your sharing your expertise. I just wish you had a different hero. That Yamashiada guy is a bit rough! _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:00 AM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads Thanks very much, Bob. Any advice on how to join the 8 gauge wire on those fuse holders to the 4 AWG welding cable? Regards, Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 10:02 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads > > > >>Comments/Questions: Hey, Bob. Your book and other diagrams (I'm using a >>Subaru in a Zenith 601HD) say to use an 80 amp fuse for the alternator, >>but I don't see a fuse of that size on either your site or on B&C's site. >>Am I missing something? Where would you suggest I get that fuse? > > What size alternator do you have? Suggest you > look into an in-line, MAXI fuse holder like > > http://tinyurl.com/u6de9 > > and the appropriate fuse like: > > http://tinyurl.com/toqwp > > Pick a fuse that is 10 to 20A greater > than alternator rating. You can find these > in automotive parts stores or: > > http://tinyurl.com/yydx3m > > http://tinyurl.com/voffj > > and > > http://tinyurl.com/uj5ms > > Bob . . . > ----------------------------------------- > ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) > ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ----------------------------------------- > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads At 09:06 AM 11/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Thanks very much, Bob. Any advice on how to join the 8 gauge wire on >those fuse holders to the 4 AWG welding cable? Keep in mind that the wire sizes, fuse sizes and choices of what electro-whizzies power from which busses is a big variable in the fabrication of your electrical system. The VALUES shown in the z-figures are intended to give a sense of proportion to a wire or fuse's duties. When I show a 4AWG, that's a FAT wire but it may well be that your system will call for a 2AWG or even an 8AWG. It may also be that 4AWG, welding cable jumpers to the lead posts on a battery are chosen for their mechanical flexibility and friendliness to the batter in spite of the fact that the rest of the FAT wires are 2AWG. So, let's consider the wire sizing task for your application. What z-figure, what size alternator?. Do you plan to have a loadmeter shunt? How long is the run from your alternator b-lead terminal and where to you plan to attach it? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:49 AM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GEMS Optical switch GEMS Optical Liquid Level Sensor number ELS-900. This sensor uses light (infra-red) to determine if liquid is in contact with the tapered section of the sensor. It is a very high temp sensor (for use from -40 up to 125 deg C), is very small and is completely solid state (no moving parts for highest reliability). The housing is made of Polyethersulfone which is very resistant to most chemicals. The included o-ring is Viton and the threads are M12 x 1-8. The pressure range is 0 to 250 psi. It runs on 5 Vdc and consumes 4 mA. It has been shock, EMI and vibration tested to MIL specifications and it meets specific CE and UL requirements. It is a probe wet = current sink type. The wires are approximately 6" long and the sensor's length is 32 mm. It comes in an EMI shielded bag. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Temperature units puzzle From: "Eric M. Jones" >I design in both inch and metric (and implemented the metric system at the >last place I worked) and I can tell you that the inch hangs on from fear >and ignorance. ---snip from Eric's message. > Bob--Really? Fear? Ignorance? Please support this > assertion. There's not a person I know that wouldn't > rather work in metric but we have $deca-millions$ (there's > a metric for you) tied up in machine tools and > untold investments in familiarization hours for > the folks that design, build and maintain our products. Thanks for the slow pitch Bob. I'll swing at it. Pow!...You bet. FEAR and IGNORANCE--the opposite of courage and understanding. You may ascribe different emotions to engineers whose internal psyches make them more comfortable STILL designing in inches and then converting to metric--sometimes by pushing a button on their CAD system-- (the tolerances especially become a nightmare), but I've seen these guys turn white with fear when facing the task of completely abandoning their cozy conversion-filled measurement nests. Okay, call it crazy and stupid--or shortsighted and provincial. I tried being reasonable...I didn't like it. > Bob--There's not a person I know that wouldn't rather work in metric. Then you don't know many engineers, designers and draftspeople who spent their whole careers poking and scratching in inches. Change is scarey. > Bob-- ...but we have $deca-millions$ (there's a metric for you) tied up in machine tools Congratulations. So you've figured out what happened to our machine tool industry. Foreigners are worried about buying our stuff because their mechanics can't find bolts to screw into them. If you don't believe it you haven't talked to foreign engineers. Ask them about their perceptions and get back to us. > Bob--...and untold investments in familiarization hours for the folks that design, build and maintain our products. You hit the metric nail right on the head. In ten more years we will have ten more years of "familiarization hours". Suck it up and take the leap. It ain't really so hard. > Bob-- Now, explain how a total change-out to ANY other system will make our cost-out-the-door lower, performance higher, customer acceptance greater . . . or our stock more valuable. You are right again Bob--If you look at the next quarter only, or if you only look at the local market, or if you don't care two farts that the US has been HOBBLED by a difficult, antique and orphaned syst...(oops, there I almost goofed again)...trash can of smelly old measurements. In many companies, when the metric conversion question is raised, the chief engineer runs up to the VP's office and cries that armagedon will befall us. The truth is, in MY REAL EXPERIENCE, that the whole thing is much ado about nothing. The machinists never complained, the parts price didn't go up, the metric-screw vendors drove better cars. The only problem was the chief engineers who complained to the VPs. Their brilliant solution was dual-dimensioning. Now THERE"S an IDEA. Twice the errors. Half the benefit...but that's why they wear the big floppy shoes. > Bob--.total change-out to ANY other system... I never said "Total Change-out". YOU DID, just to frighten people. Sure, there are plenty of reasonable exceptions. The English still drink ale in pints and measure horses in hands. Customary units that don't have to travel much are still around. Lumber 2 X 4's never were 2" x 4". Modular systems don't bother anybody. I don't know how big a brick is and hardly anyone cares. My seeming intractibility on this issue is the result of dealing with too many smart people who spend their time justifying their own way. Yikes... I've got a couple questions for you, Bob....1) How big in inches is a fuel tank that holds ten quarts? The similar calculation is TRIVIAL in metric and you don't have to look up anything. --And 2) Why don't you spend some time overseas and get some perspective? We aren't in Kansas anymore Bob. > Bob-- That's like saying that a novel written in German is somehow > superior to one written in English. Or that an e-book should be arbitrarily favored over the print version. Process does not trump elegant designs crafted of well organized simple-ideas. Ridiculous and irrelevant. It turns out that the same novel written in French probably IS better than one written in German. Paper IS easier to read than e-books. Process trumps elegant designs crafted of well organized simple-ideas (I had a girlfriend who spoke French in bed).... What does this have to do with anything? Would you like a measurement system OR NOT? Inches, feet, miles, hogsheads, barrels, pints, and yards isn't a system. Quote by John Coltrane in English: "It was my beans and bacon...ya know. Jazz was my tea and crumpets, my toast and jam...." French translation: "C'est tout le monde ". So you can never be sure. > Bob--The metric system is becoming more prevalent all the > time and the marketplace is and will continue to adjust > as the economics dictate. Keep in mind that many high volume > production operations call 6% net profit a good thing > causing their stock to rise while the competitor's 4% > profit is not so whippy in the eyes of Wall Street. > > And do we suppose the stockholders give a rat's fat > patootie what measurement system was used to produce the > product? Ignorance and fear? Give me a break! It's going > to happen but in it's own good time and not because of (or > lack of) presidential decrees or cabbages lobbed in from > the balcony. Bob . . . Yes let's all go slow. Here's my cabbage--the US signed onto the metric system in 1866. No sense hurrying things, eh? Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75300#75300 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:11 PM PST US From: "Greg Campbell" Subject: AeroElectric-List: NASA and the Electrostatic (ESD) monkey... Eric's comment about NASA reminded me of a humorous (except to taxpayers) story which I guarantee is 100% true... I was rooting around at a metal recycling / selling place near Oakland airport and came across a BIG box with spools of aviation grade wire. They wanted $1/pound so I started pulling out all the spools of Teflon & Tefzel wire that looked useful. In the same box were a bunch of components in ESD bags. Those are the silver & pink bags that shield sensitive components from "ElectroStatic Discharge" damage. I opened a few to see what was inside (these were $1/pound too ;-) Turns out the box contained a bunch of stuff surplused from Loral for the International Space Station (non-flight backup / mockup / ???) Digging through this box showed me clearly why everything in the space industry is SOOOO expensive! Sure, I found 17 different versions of a prototype circuit board - about 2" x 3" that must do some arcane thing. But... at least those deserved to be double bagged and accompanied by 10 or more pages of paperwork. But some of the other stuff.... They apparently used the same "bagging & marking" system to ship ALL the goods provided for the NASA contract. Some ESD bags contained a 17 page shipping list, and if you looked carefully - you would eventually find that line 10 on page 14 listed "Washers, Flat, 8/32 - Qty 2" - and sure enough, there would be two little flat washers in the bag, or tucked into the folds of the 17 page shipping list. I could only imagine the paperwork that would be required to replace one of the washers if it got lost in the folds of paper or bags. Other items which were dutifully protected by double ESD bags and ample paperwork included resistors, screws, mounting brackets, etc.. This appalled me on one level, and amused on other. As I opened the various ESD pouches it was a little like Christmas - each was a surprise. And just like Christmas, the pile of discarded paperwork and ESD bags grew & grew! In the end, I bought lots of wire (enough for several airplanes), and saved a few of the circuit boards as souvenier trinkets showing (the miniscule changes) from Version 00 to Version 17. But the cheapskate in me couldn't see paying a $1 per pound for all that paperwork, so I left that behind! So... my airplane is wired with "space grade" aviation wire. I had to look up some of the codes to see what they wire. Turns out that some of the wire is silver plated. Neat stuff - and quite an insight into NASA's business practices. At least they're trying! Greg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:37 PM PST US From: Kelly McMullen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Temperature units puzzle Yeah, sure, the metric system is terrific, except, they screwed up a lot of units. Temperature..too big, so that everything has to be expressed as a decimal instead of integers. Pressure, same thing, at least for tires. Torque, ditto. Distance..ditto. Centimeters are too small, meters are too big. Oh, and the real big deal....all land in the US is titled in English units that require hard conversion of every legal title document at horrendous billions of dollars. The transportation industry tried to convert. Because of the real estate involved, two sets of plans had to be done for every project at a huge waste of money, with subsequent high likelihood of mistakes, that could and did happen. FHWA and many states came to their senses and abandoned the effort. Then you have the bastardized METAR system, that winds up using English, nautical and metric units all in the same weather sequence. What a load of crap! Remember that 90% of all flights in the world occur within the US border.........so why in the world should they be done to foreign standards? You gonna pay to replace every altimeter, VSI airspeed and temperature gauges with metric? Not me. Machining and hardware manufacture is just a small piece of the puzzle...but you already knew that. > > Yes let's all go slow. Here's my cabbage--the US signed onto the metric system in 1866. No sense hurrying things, eh? > > Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." > (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) > > -------- > Eric M. Jones > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:12 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: MAXI fuses for alternator b-leads Bill You might find marine Maxi fuse holders useful. I think mine is from Blue Sea and as I recall it has 3/16" bolts for ring terminals so that any size wire is easy to use. The bolts also increase the grip force on the fuse legs. Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:06 AM 11/17/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >> >> >> Thanks very much, Bob. Any advice on how to join the 8 gauge wire on >> those fuse holders to the 4 AWG welding cable? > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:51 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: metric salvation At 12:02 PM 11/17/2006 -0800, you wrote: > > > Bob--Really? Fear? Ignorance? Please support this > > assertion. There's not a person I know that wouldn't > > rather work in metric but we have $deca-millions$ (there's > > a metric for you) tied up in machine tools and > > untold investments in familiarization hours for > > the folks that design, build and maintain our products. > > >Thanks for the slow pitch Bob. I'll swing at it. > >Pow!...You bet. FEAR and IGNORANCE--the opposite of courage and >understanding. You may ascribe different emotions to engineers whose >internal psyches make them more comfortable STILL designing in inches and >then converting to metric--sometimes by pushing a button on their CAD >system-- (the tolerances especially become a nightmare), but I've seen >these guys turn white with fear when facing the task of completely >abandoning their cozy conversion-filled measurement nests. Okay, call it >crazy and stupid--or shortsighted and provincial. I tried being >reasonable...I didn't like it. Hmmm . . . I'm amazed at what appears to be a simple, free-market, economic phenomenon being morphed into a diagnosed pandemic of personality disorders. How do you do it? Telekinetic psychoanalysis? "White with fear"? . . . I work with about 800 other folks in engineering at RAC. If any of them are suffering from your diagnosed malady, they hide it well. Haven't seen a face go white since I've worked there and we've faced problems a whole lot more challenging than deciding which units the CAD system runs in. Assume our ignorance and fear of adopting an alternative language by which we conduct the business of our craft is as pervasive as you suggest. May we then be excused for our failure to acknowledge and embrace your diagnosis? Obviously, persons afflicted with such selective personality disorders cannot be expected to respond to a therapy of simple revelation of our wretched condition. What is your prescription? Presidential decree? Congressional legislation? A court decision that brands all transgressors criminal? Do you think it would help me to at least throw off the shackles of cowardice? Perhaps I could email my CEO and explain, "I have it on good authority that we're all screwing over ourselves, customers, country and perhaps even the planet by not rising above our collective ignorant cowardice." I could suggest a ceremonial burning of the yardsticks out in the parking lot to signal our corporate salvation and rebirth. But alas, I must confess that I cannot rise to that simple act of redemption. I'm afraid I must seek solace in the distorted understanding of a craft by which I and my ignorant (and cowardly) companions have delivered product for all these years. I AM trying. I've had customers request that my work product be delivered in metric, and you're right, it's no big deal. Fortunately for me, AutoCAD is neither ignorant or cowardly. I humbly beg your indulgence and forgiveness as I struggle with existence in my slightly deranged professional haze. Bob . . .