---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/23/06: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:13 AM - Re: Homebrew AHRS? (Malcolm Thomson) 2. 06:19 AM - Re: Flaked Regulator? (Michael) 3. 07:05 AM - Re: Paul's article on modifying ND and MI alternators (Wingrider) 4. 07:09 AM - Re: Grnd Pwr Jack () 5. 07:38 AM - Re: Grnd Pwr Jack (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:02 AM - Re: 24V 12V grounds (Eric M. Jones) 7. 08:53 AM - Z-19 questions (Bill Bradburry) 8. 09:42 AM - Ampmeter reading (Carlos Trigo) 9. 10:13 AM - Re: Ampmeter reading (Tim & Diane Shankland) 10. 12:04 PM - Re: Icom A200-Help! (Bill McMullen) 11. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Icom A200-Help! (LarryMcFarland) 12. 04:36 PM - Re: Icom A200-Help! (Bill McMullen) 13. 05:43 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (S. Ramirez) 14. 06:12 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (Lynn Riggs) 15. 06:31 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (Dale Ensing) 16. 07:06 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (S. Ramirez) 17. 07:29 PM - Re: Re: 24V 12V grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 07:37 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 09:40 PM - Re: Re: D10-a check lists and POH (Jim Jewell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:57 AM PST US From: "Malcolm Thomson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS? I was the President of Blue Mountain Avionics for about 15 months and I can confirm the h/w parts of an AHRS system are not very extensive. However, the required software engineering skills and experience with this type of technology are considerable if you want the AHRS to work well under the conditions we might encounter in flight. I have two Crossbow AHRS 425's which still do not work correctly. Crossbow claims the latest update fixes things others have told me not so. They have been fixing problems with the 425 for over a year! What kind would you build - basic AHRS - a GPS aided AHRS - a GPS and Air Data aided AHRS? I know BMA and others continue to make refinements to their AHRS software - rarely do they need to change or update the hardware. I would not advise a home built approach to this critical part of your aircraft. Malcolm. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 12:16 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Homebrew AHRS? --> At 10:03 AM 11/22/2006 -0600, you wrote: > > > I personally don't see the sense in spending $2000-$5000 > building your own AHRS according to that website when a Dynon or GRT etc. > can be bought ready to go. And they are tried and true. > Unless of course one wanted to market one or just does'nt > have anything better to do. > But of course time permitting one could be built cheap well........ Depends on the goal. I'm presently trying to sell some MBA types on the value of IR&D with an emphasis on the "I". Should you wish to understand and make utility of the ingredients needed to accomplish a task, you need to start with the simple-ideas. The task is to explore how they perform and the elegant ways they may be assembled into useful products. If someone expresses a desire to "build" something, it's not uncommon for folk to counsel against the activity for a variety of reasons not the least of which is a perceived re-invention of some wheel. Randy has suggested that he might build one "cheap". I CAN advise that for the majority of cases, tasks of this nature may be emulated but unless your time has zero value, it's never cheap. While the hardware IS readily available and inexpensive, an AHRS system designed around rate sensors is exceedingly software intensive. Launching a new project of this type without the support of a cadre' of smart people (knowledgeable and experienced) is risky . . . especially if you plan to poke your airplane into clouds. The task is much more than buying some parts and wiring them together. You need a working knowledge of crafting flight stabilization software. You also need a means for testing it without risking life, limb or airplane. We used to do a lot of this work at RAC Missiles and had hardware-in-the-loop simulation for testing. So before we can advise Randy well, we need to know what his plan is. The starting point is today and the end point is (????). What is it you wish to achieve Randy? Be aware too that the successful ventures of this type are never "cheap." Bob . . . -- 6:48 AM -- 6:48 AM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:11 AM PST US From: "Michael" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flaked Regulator? Thanks for the suggestion Deems. The needle continuously cycles back and forth about 2 times a second. It does not cycle in sequence with the rotating beacon and turning things off does not change it. Jim Baker sent a good link from Zeftronics. Zeft suggests checking the connections between the alternator Bat terminal and the pin input to the controller for high resistance, corrosion, dirt, loose or intermittent connection. I'm going to check that out next time the cowling is off. Michael H. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Paul's article on modifying ND and MI alternators From: "Wingrider" paulm(at)olypen.com wrote: > Thanks; I will be updating the article as a PDF with current info and part > numbers etc as needed. Need a couple of weeks to complete but it will not be > limited to the mag article for photo size and resolution etc. > > Paul > > --- Paul I was wondering if you have updated this article and if I can get a copy of it? If not do you know where I can download the original? Thanks -------- Rich Whittington Tullahoma, TN Zenith 601HDS Under Construction Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76518#76518 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:01 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grnd Pwr Jack Thanks for your note, Bob. I rechecked my connections (again) and now it works like a champ--just as you described. FYI, the described charger below does work with the circuit. Hope you're Thanksgiving is a blessed one. Frank McD -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 9:44 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grnd Pwr Jack At 09:13 AM 11/20/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Not sure I've properly installed the Ground Power Jack per the diagram >from Bob. I'm wondering if I have the circuit breaker switch properly >connected--which terminal goes to the ground ("Line" or "Load") & which >goes to the contactor? >When I connect power to the plug the test light comes on, regardless of >which position the circuit breaker switch is in. Is this what's >supposed to happen? I am thinking that I should be able to test the >ground pwr contactor to see if it's closed by testing the voltage across >the terminals but I don't get the voltage I expect (~ 12 v?). I'm using >a Schumacher Model WM-1562A "Fully Automatic Battery Charger/Maintainer" >(1.5 amp slow charge)when I test the system. There are several ground power wiring options in the literature I've published. Since you speak of a light then I presume you're referring to the drawing shown in . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/grndpwr.pdf The symptoms you describe suggest that the light fixture is wired wrong. There are three terminals on the back that must be wired as depicted or you'll get unpredictable behavior which includes the symptoms you've described. I don't think the WM1562 charger is appropriate to simulate a ground power source. This charger is of limited output current . . . about 1 amp as I recall and the ground power contactor needs about 0.7 of the total. It MIGHT work but without trying it or doing more detailed analysis of the charger's expected behavior, I cannot predict. When you connect a ground power source (try a battery with a 10A fuse in the line), the indicator lamp should be dark as long as the breaker-switch is open. Pressing the fixture should produce a light showing that ground power is applied and that the lamp is good. Closing the breaker should also cause the contactor to close. This will happen with a audible "thunk". The light will come on also showing that ground power is now applied to ship's wiring. A reversed ground power source will cause the switch breaker to open immediately after you try to close it. Likewise, if you've installed the over voltage protection option, applying 24v to a 12v airplane will also cause the switch=breaker to open. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Grnd Pwr Jack At 10:08 AM 11/23/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Thanks for your note, Bob. >I rechecked my connections (again) and now it works like a champ--just >as you described. I'm pleased that the solution was simple. >FYI, the described charger below does work with the circuit. Good data point. Thanks! I have a couple of those on the shelf for use in the shop but I've never explored their behavior as utility power sources. I did explore their behavior as battery chargers and posted the data at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_2.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_3.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/schumacher_4.jpg These curves confirm the manner in which these devices "top off" a battery and then drop to support terminal voltage a some point well below charging potentials but high enough to make the charger assume the loads of all leakage currents. >Hope you're Thanksgiving is a blessed one. Thank you sir! I'm off to Medicine Lodge to pick up my hospitalized father for transport out to Uncle George and Aunt Sally's for the day over in Leon, KS. We're expecting 40 folks to show up and the weather is clear, relatively calm and 70 degrees. All in all, the prospects for a great day are in place. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:48 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V 12V grounds From: "Eric M. Jones" > One more time! > > There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit. > > If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can prove me wrong. > OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations designed to minimize the number of > grounds and risks for ground-loop noise." > Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit. > > Barry Barry is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, we don't use real grounds in real things. Theoretically-real grounds are hard to carry around since they weigh...oh let's see....INFINITE. Your fuel economy would be terrible. So we use "ground" as slang to indicate where all the (usually) negative conductors are connected (mostly). It is perfectly possible to have no DC ground in an airplane, and in fact, composite airplanes just use a second conductor to borrow those little electrons from the battery. The problems occur when we share conductors (AC, DC, Negative, Positive, or jumping-around-a-lot), because then old Devil Mr. Ohm demands his due. PS: A DC circuit is only DC if it sits perfectly still. If you turn it ON or OFF it is AC if only for an instant. Managing that instant is the whole career of some engineers. Hope this helps. "Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an injury to one's self-esteem...." -Thomas Szasz -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76530#76530 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:31 AM PST US From: Bill Bradburry Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me.... Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving. Bill B *Subject:* */Z-19 questions/* *From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry@allvantage.com/ )* *Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/* *Bob, and others, I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors off of the battery buss. How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps??? What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts??? I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving! Bill B * ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:48 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ampmeter reading Bob et all I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru engine) to my Exp Bus board. I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by the alternator, obviously with the engine running. But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying), the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to 8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly. Why am I geting this kind of reading? Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud? Carlos ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:13:16 AM PST US From: Tim & Diane Shankland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ampmeter reading Carlos, Depends on what your looking for . If you want to know the current being produced by the alternator you have it in the right place and the readings might be right. If you want to know is my battery being charged or discharged you should put it in series with the lead from the battery that goes to everything except the starter. In this location you will know if you are in a sustainable condition. An alternator can be putting out it rated current but if your aircraft is consuming more than that you have a limited amount of airtime. Tim Shankland Carlos Trigo wrote: > Bob et all > > I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is > installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru > engine) to my Exp Bus board. > I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by > the alternator, obviously with the engine running. > But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying), > the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to > 8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly. > Why am I geting this kind of reading? > Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud? > > Carlos > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! From: "Bill McMullen" I'm currently wiring an A200 and like many others I thought I'd cross-check the very basic installation instructions that were provided. I've downloaded and looked at the http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf document, but that actually raised a bigger question. Maybe I just need another jolt of caffeine, but ... The ICOM document shows the Molex connector from the front rather than the rear wire entry side. The .pdf document shows the connector from the wire entry side (i.e. rear), BUT ... the pin numbers and letters are in the exact same order as the ICOM front view. The physical connector shows the expected reversed order. Can anyone who's wired and tested one of these confirm the orientation for me? i.e. Power / ground wires on the left or right when viewed from the rear. Thanks in advance. P.S. Many thanks to Bob for his efforts and willingness to share his knowledge ... it is appreciated. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76568#76568 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:31 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! Bill, Check the molex connector for the neutral key for finding the proper side. 1 thru 8 and A thru H begin the first half of the connector and A has no connector at all. The opposite side only has 7 spaces, so orientation and placement of the wires should be evident by checking the radio and connectors. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Bill McMullen wrote: > > I'm currently wiring an A200 and like many others I thought I'd cross-check the very basic installation instructions that were provided. I've downloaded and looked at the http://www.aeroelectric.com/Installation_Data/IC-A200_Icom_Installation_Wiring.pdf document, but that actually raised a bigger question. Maybe I just need another jolt of caffeine, but ... > > The ICOM document shows the Molex connector from the front rather than the rear wire entry side. The .pdf document shows the connector from the wire entry side (i.e. rear), BUT ... the pin numbers and letters are in the exact same order as the ICOM front view. The physical connector shows the expected reversed order. > > Can anyone who's wired and tested one of these confirm the orientation for me? i.e. Power / ground wires on the left or right when viewed from the rear. > > Thanks in advance. > > P.S. Many thanks to Bob for his efforts and willingness to share his knowledge ... it is appreciated. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76568#76568 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:40 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! From: "Bill McMullen" Thanks Larry. I think I was just being over cautious ... I'm doing this from scratch and first had to insert the polarizing key into my blank Molex connector. It does match the radio and I've looked at the PCB traces to verify the obvious ground connections. Your post made me look at it again and I still think I've done it properly such that the wiring will match the markings on the connector. In essence, I guess my post was a round about way of saying that I think the .PDF drawing has an error in it's connector pictorial. I hate the smell of expensive smoke and also hope that no one else makes a mistake. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76591#76591 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:05 PM PST US From: "S. Ramirez" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions Mofo, I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost money, and here it is in PDF on the fucking internet. I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning. Thanks a bunch. Simon Ramirez, Consultant Synchronous Design, Inc. Oviedo, FL 32765 USA 407-365-8928: home/office 407-221-8928: mobile Xilinx Alliance Partner Copyright C 2006 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions --> I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me.... Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving. Bill B *Subject:* */Z-19 questions/* *From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry@allvantage.com/ )* *Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/* *Bob, and others, I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors off of the battery buss. How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps??? What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts??? I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving! Bill B * -- 5:41 PM ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:47 PM PST US From: Lynn Riggs Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions That one is and old version. Mofo, I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost money, and here it is in PDF on the fucking internet. I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning. Thanks a bunch. Simon Ramirez, Consultant Synchronous Design, Inc. Oviedo, FL 32765 USA 407-365-8928: home/office 407-221-8928: mobile Xilinx Alliance Partner Copyright C 2006 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions --> I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me.... Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving. Bill B *Subject:* */Z-19 questions/* *From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry@allvantage.com/ 49E28.9030501@allvantage.com>)* *Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/* *Bob, and others, I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors off of the battery buss. How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode output and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps??? What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts??? I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving! Bill B * -- 5:41 PM Lynn A. Riggs riggs_la@yahoo.com St. Paul, MN BH #656 Kit #22 http://home.comcast.net/~lariggs/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:35 PM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions Simon Ramirez, Please refrain from the offensive language. It is not appropriate for this list exchange. Dale Ensing ----- Original Message ----- From: "S. Ramirez" Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:41 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions > > > Mofo, > > I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost > money, > and here it is in PDF on the ******* internet. > > I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning. > > Thanks a bunch. > > Simon Ramirez, Consultant > Synchronous Design, Inc. > Oviedo, FL 32765 USA > 407-365-8928: home/office > 407-221-8928: mobile > Xilinx Alliance Partner > > Copyright C 2006 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill > Bradburry > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions > > --> > > I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it > seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me.... > Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving. > > Bill B > > *Subject:* */Z-19 questions/* > *From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry@allvantage.com/ > 49E28.9030501@allvantage.com>)* > > *Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/* > > *Bob, and others, > I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to > follow > > the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at > the > > engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and > secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and the injectors > off of the battery buss. > How should I do this? I suppose I could take the fuel pump diode > output > > and switch it to either of the two fuel pumps??? > What about the coils and injectors? Should I set up similar circuits > for them, or is there a better way to reduce parts??? > I would appreciate any guidance you guys could give me. > Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving! > Bill B > * > > > -- > 5:41 PM > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:19 PM PST US From: "S. Ramirez" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions I apologize to everyone on this list for the previous offensive email that I accidentally posted. I thought I was responding to another email from a personal friend, unrelated to the email that you saw below mine. I goofed big time. Please accept my apologies, and it will not happen again. I contacted Bob N. about what to do, but decided to post an apology nonetheless. I also apologize personally to Bill Bradburry, who had nothing to do with the email. Simon Ramirez ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V 12V grounds At 08:02 AM 11/23/2006 -0800, you wrote: > > > > One more time! > > > > There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit. > > > > If you truly believe there is Design one so I can build it and you can > prove me wrong. > > OR tell the poor questioning soul how to "carefully crafted locations > designed to minimize the number of > > grounds and risks for ground-loop noise." > > Ya CAN'T because each plane is different the wire runs vary and there > is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit. > > > > Barry > > >Barry is absolutely correct. > >Unfortunately, we don't use real grounds in real things. >Theoretically-real grounds are hard to carry around since they weigh...oh >let's see....INFINITE. Your fuel economy would be terrible. > >So we use "ground" as slang to indicate where all the (usually) negative >conductors are connected (mostly). It is perfectly possible to have no DC >ground in an airplane, and in fact, composite airplanes just use a second >conductor to borrow those little electrons from the battery. > >The problems occur when we share conductors (AC, DC, Negative, Positive, >or jumping-around-a-lot), because then old Devil Mr. Ohm demands his due. > >PS: A DC circuit is only DC if it sits perfectly still. If you turn it ON >or OFF it is AC if only for an instant. Managing that instant is the whole >career of some engineers. > >Hope this helps. Golly gee Eric. Talk about slicing and dicing the dictionary. An alternating current system is one that changes polarity, I.e. like positive for 1/2 cycle and reverses for another half cycle. I.e., it ALTERNATES. Stating that DC becomes something other than DC just because it is dynamic suggests a vernacular from another planet. Okay folks. Where Eric (and I presume Barry) lives. Any DC system that is not absolutely rock stable is no longer a DC system but . . . what? Oh yes, at what point do you draw the line on stability sir? 1-volt "wiggles"? 1-millivolt wiggles . . . how about microvolt wiggles? Taking this notion to the molecular extreme, one might say that, "There is no such thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some "wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry jump from ion to ion. My teachers would disagree with your definitions sir as do I. For the purposes of common language and understanding here on the List and just so we're all on the same page, let us stipulate: That (1) alternating current power distribution systems are likened to that which comes out of your wall sockets and (2) direct current power distribution systems are likened to that which runs our automobiles. Further, DC systems that are less than stable are still DC systems with distortion (noise). AC systems suffer distortions too (mini-brownouts, switching transients and yes, the effects of GROUND LOOPS). To argue differently may impress the neophyte but it borders on bizarre in the venue where I work. >"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an > injury to one's self-esteem...." -Thomas Szasz What a bummer idea! I'll suggest a alternative: "Every act of conscious learning requires a willingness to seek out and understand the simple-ideas (fundamentals) for the systems of interest. One's self-esteem is enhanced by the ability to use those simple-ideas in ways that are useful. One's self-esteem is really bolstered when CUSTOMERS are willing to support your livelihood by PURCHASING inventions you SUPPLY based on your understanding of those fundamentals." -Bob Nuckolls I've read some of Szasz's work. He posits some interesting and even attractive ideas but he's obviously not grounded in reality. For example. He suggests, "abolition of involuntary hospitalization: No one should be deprived of liberty unless he is found guilty of a criminal offense. Depriving a person of liberty for what is said to be his own good is immoral. Just as a person suffering from terminal cancer may refuse treatment, so should a person be able to refuse psychiatric treatment." I've had a lifetime experience with a mother who has suffered from paranoid schizophrenia since her teens. I've witnessed a virtual miracle of productive integration into family and society when interventions were working along with her suffering in a 24/7 living hell of nightmares when she decided she was cured and dumped her protocols. Szasz speaks a language attractive to amoral passivists but as your chosen quotation illustrates, he does not philosophize in simple-ideas. May I suggest more forward-looking philosophers who have demonstrated the value of their philosophies for living many times over? Try Charles Kettering, Ayn Rand, Virgil Elings, just to name a few. These folks do not wallow in self-deprecating ideas and nostrums for living. Not one bummer quote from the lot! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions Simon, You have done all that is necessary and expected. Our society is replete with individuals who, when indulging in a dishonorable activity, will hat-dance around the the event rather than accept responsibility and offer restitution. Your willingness to step up to the bar and set things right is as much as any of us can ask. We're all sorry it happened but in light of your subsequent behavior, I'll suggest it's an event unworthy of further attention. I'm perfectly willing to move on from here without prejudice. I'll ask others on the list to join me. Bob . . . At 10:04 PM 11/23/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > >I apologize to everyone on this list for the previous offensive email that I >accidentally posted. I thought I was responding to another email from a >personal friend, unrelated to the email that you saw below mine. I goofed >big time. Please accept my apologies, and it will not happen again. I >contacted Bob N. about what to do, but decided to post an apology >nonetheless. > >I also apologize personally to Bill Bradburry, who had nothing to do with >the email. > >Simon Ramirez ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:54 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: D10-a check lists and POH Ken, Please send what you have on hand there. Do you need any contact information? Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Harrill" Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:34 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: D10-a check lists and POH > > > Jim, > > I have one for my RV-6, 180 hp, C/S that I will be glad to send you. I > can't attach it to this message because it does not have an acceptable > file extension. > > Ken Harrill > ken.harrill@columbia.sc > > -------- > Ken Harrill > RV-6 > Columiba, SC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76415#76415 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.