---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/24/06: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:46 AM - More Great List Comments - Please Make A Contribution! (Matt Dralle) 1. 03:37 AM - Re: Z-19 questions (Rodney Dunham) 2. 03:47 AM - Re: Re: Icom A200-Help! (Rodney Dunham) 3. 04:03 AM - Ground vs Return (Rodney Dunham) 4. 04:52 AM - Re: Z-19 questions (JOHN TIPTON) 5. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: 24V 12V grounds (FLYaDIVE@aol.com) 6. 07:43 AM - Pitot heater - current sensor (John Tvedte) 7. 07:46 AM - Auto-pilots (Bob Verwey) 8. 08:20 AM - Re: Icom A200-Help! (Bill McMullen) 9. 10:26 AM - Re: Auto-pilots (Kevin Horton) 10. 04:20 PM - Fw: Ampmeter reading (Carlos Trigo) 11. 04:57 PM - travelliing to Ottawa (Jim Jewell) 12. 05:23 PM - Re: Fw: Ampmeter reading (Ken) 13. 06:27 PM - Re: To ground loop . . . or not, that IS the question. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:27 PM - Re: To ground loop . . . or not, that IS the question. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 06:28 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 06:30 PM - Re: Z-19 questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 08:02 PM - Re: Pitot heater - current sensor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:46:46 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: More Great List Comments - Please Make A Contribution! Dear Listers, There's a little less than one week left for this year's List Fund Raiser. I thought it would a great time to share a few more of the great comments I've been receiving from Contributors regarding what the Lists mean to them. There are some particularly poignant ones in this batch and I encourage you to have a look at some of them. Don't forget that once you make your Contribution, the Contribution Squelch kicks in and you won't receive any future messages from me regarding the Fund Raiser this year! This holds true for the Realtime and Digest distributions and now also the HTML and TXT links included with the Digest! (Note that for technical reasons, if someone replies to one of my contribution messages, the Squelch will _not_ be activated, and you will still receive it. Contribution messages will also still be found on the Forums site and the List Browse). Please make your Contribution today to support these List services! Pick up a great Gift too! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ============================= WLAS #2 ============================ Tackling my project without the List would be like building on a deserted island. The List has made me part of a learning (and laughing) community. -Larry W Thank you for providing such a fantastic resource for us Kolbers. I'm very happy to contribute towards keeping such a wonderful resource available. -Geoff T ..you do a great service for the flying community by providing this service. -John L ..solidly administered. -James C A great source of information. -Ralph S The Lists have likely saved a numbers of lives... -James F ..exceptional user service. -Larry W Better than a magazine! -Aaron G Thanks to your List I will be able to finish and fly my project. Without the help of the great people on your List I doubt it would have happened. -Ed G I learn something on a too regular basis thanks to these lists! -Ralph C ..valuable service. -John F ..a well administered service. -Stewart C Great forum! -Ronald C A great service! -Andy H Been reading the lists since my first RV in 1999. Good work and as necessary to me as a rivet. -Albert G The lists are a great help. -Gary S This resource has been critical to my building success so far. -Timothy F Great system and support! -Richard P Very helpful in the building my CH 701. -Ralph S Another year of entertainment and pleasure! -Larry B A great resource for all of us. -Larry W Another year of great service! Once again, the information is worth more than I can ever contribute. Thank you also for the "community" that the List fosters. I cannot tell you the number of times that seeing an friend's name come up has caused so many awesome memories to come flooding back - along with the eager desire to gather with these great guys again. I love hearing the beginner's enthusiasm, the builder's progress, and the flyer's success... -Robert B Our list has great info and I love reading the "Flame Posts! " -Stephen M Great service! -James B Excellent source of information. -David P You provide a very valuable service to the aviation community. -David H The RV related lists have been a tremendous help in the construction of my RV-7... -Norman R Awesome list!! -John E Great bunch of guys and very knowledgeable! -Herbert G Thank you for making it so easy to stay in touch with my fellow RV-10 builders. -David J I love the list and have been a reader for a long time. -James V Continues to be a great service! -George A Awesome List server. -Deke M Many of us would never finish our airplanes without [the List]. With it, I'm getting close! -Ronald C An excellent source of both information and inspiration! -William R Forums and format are easy to use. -Jack B Great help with my kit building. -Ralph H Super service. -Richard N Still loving it. -Jared S You have a fantastic web! -Harvey R ..a great service. -James M Glad you are there... -David A I get some great information on your list. -John P Fantastic service. Couldn't have made it as far as I have without it. -Stephen T A great learning experience with my RV-6A. -Ron B Great resources! -Jason H Well done. Very valuable. -Jeffrey D Great resource for the experimental aircraft community. -Chris H This List has been one of the most helpful tools in building my RV-10, since I build alone, and do not have any help readily available. Without the List, I could not have embarked on building my RV-10. -Jim H You run a great list there. -James H Really like the Kolb List. -Don W ============================= WLAS #2 ============================ ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:13 AM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions Simon, Now THAT'S how a gentleman apologizes! Our politicians could take a lesson from you :o) Rodney in Tennessee DO NOT ARCHIVE _________________________________________________________________ Get the latest Windows Live Messenger 8.1 Beta version.Join now. http://ideas.live.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:39 AM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! No such thing as over-cautious. You are correct that the pinout on the .pdf file is wrong. You are also correct that the pinout letters and numbers are embossed on the connector. With a pair of +1.25 Diopter "cheater" from Walgreen's and a good bright light, I can just barely read them. Go with the IC-A200 "Installation Instructions". They work well. Rodney in Tennessee PS, mine never had a Polarizing Key. Still works fine. _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:05 AM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground vs Return Barry, As a physician, I am confronted with this "ground loop" versus "return loop" versus "assymetrical supply and ground" debate but in a different form. It goes something like this... The patient reports (some say "complains of", see, it starts already) runny nose, fever, aching all over and various other symptoms. I examine the patient and diagnose "Respiratory Tract Infection". Until recently this was called "Upper Respiratory Infection" and, in fact, still is by most "in the business". The patient says, "Is this a 'Sinus Infection' Doc?" To which I reply, "Yes." You must understand that the patient does NOT have a Sinus infection as defined by a board certified Otorhinolaryngologist! But, it's close enough and everybody knows that what I meant was RTI, and everybody is happy and no harm is done to the patient, the doctor, the general populace or the medical community at large! The patient is not a doctor. So, hammering out the differences of nomenclature serves absolutely no purpose. Further, I know what the problem is based on symptoms and I know how to fix it which I promptly do. Isnt' THAT the purpose of this activity??? Now, I'm just a lowly physician, not an EE or any other kind of engineer except a shade tree HE (that's Human Engineer to those not quite following this thought). But I consider myself among the lucky ones that has studied Nuckolls and others and know enough to diagnose and treat a few electrical issues. Like most on this list, I understand (even in my ignorance) that airplanes cannot be attached to THE ground and therefore do not have a REAL ground. I understand that the battery negative terminal is the source of all electrons into the system and the positive terminal receives all of them back. I understand that there are multiple points of egress out of the wires after they leave their many branches from the battery minus terminal and multiple points on ingress as they make their way back to the positive terminal. And that differences in potential exist because all wires have some measure of resistance, not being "perfect" conductors. Like Greg Righter (and maybe you?), I think that the whole idea of "ground" should be scrapped in favor of the simpler and more correct concept of "return". BUT... Since we all understand the basic physics of electrons, there's no harm and no foul to call a return a "ground" so long as we don't make errors in our thinking due to that "improper" nomenclature. If and when these errors are noted, I for one would appreciate a GENTLE reminder of the physics and a rudimentary lesson on the topic. That's what we're all here for. And that could be your very valuable contribution to this community. I, for one, think you have a lot to offer, but the TONE brother. The TONE! Forget tha Yamashithead stuff. We're on your side. We WANT to learn. You seem to have a yen to teach. That seems like a perfect match to me. Let's get on with it like gentlemen! Rodney in Tennessee DO NOT ARCHIVE _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:27 AM PST US From: "JOHN TIPTON" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions Is this what our friendly discussion group has come to John "S. Ramirez" wrote: Mofo, I can download it. I'm doing it right now! I thought this book cost money, and here it is in PDF on the fucking internet. I'll see you at the airport Saturday morning. Thanks a bunch. Simon Ramirez, Consultant Synchronous Design, Inc. Oviedo, FL 32765 USA 407-365-8928: home/office 407-221-8928: mobile Xilinx Alliance Partner Copyright C 2006 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bradburry Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:53 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions --> I really would like some advice on the below question. I assume that it seems pretty simple to some but it is beyond me.... Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving. Bill B *Subject:* */Z-19 questions/* *From:* */Bill Bradburry/ (/bbradburry@allvantage.com/ 49E28.9030501@allvantage.com>)* *Date:* */*Wed Nov 22 - 11:00 AM*/* *Bob, and others, I am installing a fuel injected Mazda rotary engine and trying to follow the Z-19 guidelines for dual battery, single alternator. Looking at the engine primary and secondary circuit, I need to install a primary and secondary fuel pump, plus I want to power the coils and ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:58 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 24V 12V grounds In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:31:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, nuckollsr@cox.net writes: "There is no such thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some "wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry jump from ion to ion. =========================================== Hi Bob: I do live on my own planet, but unfortunately I have to share it; I would even accept a planetoid. GREAT statement above Bob. That is what I learned also. We must have read the same books at one time or another. But, why in your GROUND explaination/seranio (your post explaining ground loops) did you pick thermocouples and group them under the DC Ground umbrella? If you recall thermocouples when first produced were done so as a floating (non-grounded) device. And in many cases as a non-shieled device. This led to may erroneous reading on the gages ESPECIALLY when digital read-outs with low voltage sensing circuits came into play. So the method of correcting and stabilizing became a GROUNDED thermocouple. But, in this case you are talking Fruit Salad ... You know ... Apples & Oranges. They are close, but throwing them into the same bowl, I feel does not truly explain the issue. I think it is only confusing to many out there. Too much Tech-Know-Babble, sounding too much like Professor Irwin Cory. The topic is DC GROUNDS. And you know me I keep things SIMPLE ... K.I.S.S. M.E. SIMPLE. And for those that just might still be interested in the basics and how to eliminate about 98% of your electronical issues and NOISE issues here is the short version of the basics: GROUND at the SOURCE (Alternators, Batteries, Avionics and the like). CLEAN YOUR GROUNDS ADD MORE GROUNDS to DC Circuits - Battery to Engine, Battery to Firewall, Firewall (after additional grounds have been added) to Panel and YES I strongly believe in a nice heavy gage Ground Terminal Block. Or at least a Brass Nut & Bolt. [I believe my above statement is what started this debate - MORE Grounds do HELP] DC Circuits Ground at BOTH ENDS AF (Audio Frequencies) Ground ONLY at the Source RF (Radio Frequencies) Ground at BOTH ends Crazy thing here ... Alternators produce BOTH AF & RF, so what do you do? GROUND at BOTH Ends. YES! GROUND! After you do the grounding THEN you can start playing with Inductors & Capacitors and Transient Suppressors. This is the short list. I very seldom need to do more than that to prevent or remove a problem. Barry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:39 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Pitot heater - current sensor From: "John Tvedte" Bob, Say - I noticed diagram PitotHeat.pdf on your website... This seems like a slick low cost way to know if your pitot heater is actually drawing current. Could I also use this for a fuel boost pump? Do you have a picture of a finished unit and how you would wrap the wire around it, heat shrink, etc? Thanks, John ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:34 AM PST US From: "Bob Verwey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots Hey listers, I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit, but still wondering, any recommendations from the list? Bob Verwey A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Icom A200-Help! From: "Bill McMullen" Rodney : Thanks for the re-inforcement that I'm really not going crazy as the grey hairs start increasing. I only wish I could get away with just +1.25 cheaters to see these markings ... they're some of the hardest ones to read. I sincerely hope Bob sees this and updates his diagram. It's a great expansion on a very poor installation manual but my biggest concern is that someone goes with it's pinout diagram rather than getting out their magnifying glass and looking at the physical connector. I am surprised that no one else has noted and commented on this discrepency. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=76759#76759 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:36 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots On 24-Nov-06, at 10:44 AM, Bob Verwey wrote: > Hey listers, > I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a > bit, but still wondering, any recommendations from the list? > > Bob Verwey > A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW Do you need an installation for a type-certificated aircraft, or amateur-built? What capabilities do you want? Wing leveler only? Heading select? Altitude hold? Airspeed hold? Vertical speed hold? Altitude preselect? Coupled ILS? Coupled GPS? Coupled approach VNAV? Kevin Horton RV-8 (Finishing Kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:24 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Ampmeter reading Since I only got 1 answer (thanks Tim), here it goes again: Bob et all I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru engine) to my Exp Bus board. I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by the alternator, obviously with the engine running. But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying), the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to 8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly. Why am I geting this kind of reading? Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud? Carlos ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:56 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: AeroElectric-List: travelliing to Ottawa I will be visiting in the Ottawa area from this coming Thursday Nov. 30 until Dec 9. I will have time to sight see and visit in and around the Ottawa area. If any aircraft homebuilders want to share and compare notes and pictures, coffee, etc. please advise as to contact information. Thanks, Jim in Kelowna - Finished RV6-A waiting for the paperwork to be returned ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:40 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Ampmeter reading Carlos I don't think there are many Exp bus user's here but I would consider this abnormal unless you have a flashing beacon or something that is intermittantly drawing current. Does the voltage fluctuate? My hall current sensor is quite steady on my EIS monitor with my Subaru. I do have strobes. The current pulses to the injectors and ignition do vary by several amps but that happens much too quickly for current sensors or voltmeters to register anything other than a steady average current. Ammeters just aren't fast enough to register those pulses. There are some posts in the archives about fluctuating ammeters that might assist you. Ken Carlos Trigo wrote: > Since I only got 1 answer (thanks Tim), here it goes again: > > Bob et all > > I installed a digital Ampmeter, connected to a 50mV Shunt which is > installed in the #6 cable which comes from the alternator (Subaru > engine) to my Exp Bus board. > I assume that this ampmeter indicates the current being produced by > the alternator, obviously with the engine running. > But, every time I run the engine (stil at my garage, not yet flying), > the ampmeter indication runs very quickly from, let's say 13.7 down to > 8.2, then up to 14,6, again down and again up, very quickly. > Why am I geting this kind of reading? > Anything wrong or it's just indicating what it shoud? > > Carlos > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: To ground loop . . . or not, that IS the question. At 08:42 AM 11/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:31:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >nuckollsr@cox.net writes: >"There is no such > thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some > "wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry > jump from ion to ion. > >=========================================== >Hi Bob: > >I do live on my own planet, but unfortunately I have to share it; I would >even accept a planetoid. > >GREAT statement above Bob. That is what I learned also. We must have >read the same books at one time or another. Then you agree with Eric's assertion that once a DC system "wiggles" that it has now morphed into an AC system? > >But, why in your GROUND explaination/seranio (your post explaining ground >loops) did you pick thermocouples and group them under the DC Ground >umbrella? >If you recall thermocouples when first produced were done so as a floating >(non-grounded) device. And in many cases as a non-shieled device. This >led to may erroneous reading on the gages ESPECIALLY when digital >read-outs with low voltage sensing circuits came into play. So the method >of correcting and stabilizing became a GROUNDED thermocouple. Yup, you do live on a different planet. I've never had to shield a thermocouple. Digital instruments intended to read thermocouple voltages came with specifications as to what kind and amount of common mode voltages they would tolerate. I've worked with all of them. If one understands the performance and limits of the hardware at hand, one may expect reliable results. So, assuming you're using equipment that is NOT tolerant of whatever common mode noises are present and assuming further that you DO ground the thermocouple at the sense end and your measurement equipment is also grounded at some other point in the system, then yes . . . one should not be surprised that the GROUND LOOP so generated produces poor results. > But, in this case you are talking Fruit Salad ... You know ... Apples & > Oranges. They are close, but throwing them into the same bowl, I feel > does not truly explain the issue. I think it is only confusing to many > out there. Too much Tech-Know-Babble, sounding too much like Professor > Irwin Cory. Okay, how about use of remote sensing in power generation control systems . . . or the case I cited where we fixed an instrumentation interference problem by making eliminating a ground loop in the airplane's DC power sysrem? >The topic is DC GROUNDS. And you know me I keep things SIMPLE ... >K.I.S.S. M.E. SIMPLE. >And for those that just might still be interested in the basics and how to >eliminate about 98% of your electronical issues and NOISE issues here is >the short version of the basics: >GROUND at the SOURCE (Alternators, Batteries, Avionics and the like). >CLEAN YOUR GROUNDS >ADD MORE GROUNDS to DC Circuits - Battery to Engine, Battery to Firewall, >Firewall (after additional grounds have been added) to Panel and YES I >strongly believe in a nice heavy gage Ground Terminal Block. Or at least >a Brass Nut & Bolt. >[I believe my above statement is what started this debate - MORE Grounds >do HELP] No, you said: "There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit." >AC Circuits Ground at BOTH ENDS >AF (Audio Frequencies) Ground ONLY at the Source >RF (Radio Frequencies) Ground at BOTH ends >Crazy thing here ... Alternators produce BOTH AF & RF, so what do you >do? GROUND at BOTH Ends. YES! GROUND! >After you do the grounding THEN you can start playing with Inductors & >Capacitors and Transient Suppressors. > >This is the short list. I very seldom need to do more than that to prevent >or remove a problem. Now that's an illuminating dissertation. If it's "babble" one is striving for, you've achieved it. I'm sure every new builder on the List now knows exactly what you're describing but the fact that you're finding issue with my words suggests that that chapters on grounding, noise combined with architecture drawings in appendix Z in the 'Connection are are now in doubt. Barry, I just don't have the time or energy to discuss this with you. If you have a goal of being helpful, it's just not coming through. Tell you what. Write up a critical review of the work you find in the 'Connection. Be specific. Use clear words and syntax that brings to light anything I've written that leads anyone astray. If you want to be a teacher in this venue, you'll have to act like one. Ship me the document and I'll publish it on the website. Here's an example of the format: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html You've demeaned my honor and my intelligence. Now back it up with simple-ideas and illuminating anecdotes from your experience. But if all you're going to do is sit on the edge and throw in mud balls, then go away. You're not entertaining or helpful. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: To ground loop . . . or not, that IS the question. At 08:42 AM 11/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:31:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >nuckollsr@cox.net writes: >"There is no such > thing as a DC system." Even a battery generates some > "wiggles" in output voltage as electrons within the chemistry > jump from ion to ion. > >=========================================== >Hi Bob: > >I do live on my own planet, but unfortunately I have to share it; I would >even accept a planetoid. > >GREAT statement above Bob. That is what I learned also. We must have >read the same books at one time or another. Then you agree with Eric's assertion that once a DC system "wiggles" that it has now morphed into an AC system? > >But, why in your GROUND explaination/seranio (your post explaining ground >loops) did you pick thermocouples and group them under the DC Ground >umbrella? >If you recall thermocouples when first produced were done so as a floating >(non-grounded) device. And in many cases as a non-shieled device. This >led to may erroneous reading on the gages ESPECIALLY when digital >read-outs with low voltage sensing circuits came into play. So the method >of correcting and stabilizing became a GROUNDED thermocouple. Yup, you do live on a different planet. I've never had to shield a thermocouple. Digital instruments intended to read thermocouple voltages came with specifications as to what kind and amount of common mode voltages they would tolerate. I've worked with all of them. If one understands the performance and limits of the hardware at hand, one may expect reliable results. So, assuming you're using equipment that is NOT tolerant of whatever common mode noises are present and assuming further that you DO ground the thermocouple at the sense end and your measurement equipment is also grounded at some other point in the system, then yes . . . one should not be surprised that the GROUND LOOP so generated produces poor results. > But, in this case you are talking Fruit Salad ... You know ... Apples & > Oranges. They are close, but throwing them into the same bowl, I feel > does not truly explain the issue. I think it is only confusing to many > out there. Too much Tech-Know-Babble, sounding too much like Professor > Irwin Cory. Okay, how about use of remote sensing in power generation control systems . . . or the case I cited where we fixed an instrumentation interference problem by making eliminating a ground loop in the airplane's DC power sysrem? >The topic is DC GROUNDS. And you know me I keep things SIMPLE ... >K.I.S.S. M.E. SIMPLE. >And for those that just might still be interested in the basics and how to >eliminate about 98% of your electronical issues and NOISE issues here is >the short version of the basics: >GROUND at the SOURCE (Alternators, Batteries, Avionics and the like). >CLEAN YOUR GROUNDS >ADD MORE GROUNDS to DC Circuits - Battery to Engine, Battery to Firewall, >Firewall (after additional grounds have been added) to Panel and YES I >strongly believe in a nice heavy gage Ground Terminal Block. Or at least >a Brass Nut & Bolt. >[I believe my above statement is what started this debate - MORE Grounds >do HELP] No, you said: "There is NO SUCH FREEKEN thing as a GROUND LOOP in a DC circuit." >AC Circuits Ground at BOTH ENDS >AF (Audio Frequencies) Ground ONLY at the Source >RF (Radio Frequencies) Ground at BOTH ends >Crazy thing here ... Alternators produce BOTH AF & RF, so what do you >do? GROUND at BOTH Ends. YES! GROUND! >After you do the grounding THEN you can start playing with Inductors & >Capacitors and Transient Suppressors. > >This is the short list. I very seldom need to do more than that to prevent >or remove a problem. Now that's an illuminating dissertation. If it's "babble" one is striving for, you've achieved it. I'm sure every new builder on the List now knows exactly what you're describing but the fact that you're finding issue with my words suggests that that chapters on grounding, noise combined with architecture drawings in appendix Z in the 'Connection are are now in doubt. Barry, I just don't have the time or energy to discuss this with you. If you have a goal of being helpful, it's just not coming through. Tell you what. Write up a critical review of the work you find in the 'Connection. Be specific. Use clear words and syntax that brings to light anything I've written that leads anyone astray. If you want to be a teacher in this venue, you'll have to act like one. Ship me the document and I'll publish it on the website. Here's an example of the format: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html You've demeaned my honor and my intelligence. Now back it up with simple-ideas and illuminating anecdotes from your experience. But if all you're going to do is sit on the edge and throw in mud balls, then go away. You're not entertaining or helpful. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions At 12:50 PM 11/24/2006 +0000, you wrote: >Is this what our friendly discussion group has come to > >John You're a day late and a dollar short my friend. This VERY friendly discussion group has not "come to anything" as a result of the note you've cited. Furthermore, the whole matter was put to rest hours ago. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 questions At 07:05 AM 11/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Thank you for publishing your most welcomed letter of forgiveness. It means >a lot to me, especially coming from a man whom I admire in many ways. You >don't know me well, because I am a recent newcomer (within a year) and >mostly lurker. I am not in the wire system planning phase of my homebuilt >project yet, so I choose to stay mostly quiet until I stick my foot in my >mouth. :) You are not alone sir. Matt tells me there are over 1300 folks subscribed to this list and obviously, the vast majority must find value in watching the conversations go by else they would simply unsubscribe. Be silent or participate as the need suits you but please don't hesitate to jump in for clarification or expansion of an idea that seems to have relevance to your plans or understanding. >I do have one favor to ask of you before I go. Since my original email as >well as two respondents' emails have both the offensive language AND my >business information in the salutation, may I ask of you to go into whatever >mechanism you have to un-archive them? It reflects badly on my associated >partner company, Xilinx, and un-archiving would be greatly appreciated here. >If I have to do something extra myself to solve this problem, then please >let me know. You would have to contact Matt Dralle about that. He holds the "keys to the system" as it were. No doubt there is a way to get into the files and work on them. >Thank you so much and have a nice Thanksgiving season. . . . and you too sir! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Pitot heater - current sensor At 09:38 AM 11/24/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Bob, > >Say - I noticed diagram PitotHeat.pdf on your website... > >This seems like a slick low cost way to know if your pitot heater is >actually drawing current. > >Could I also use this for a fuel boost pump? > >Do you have a picture of a finished unit and how you would wrap the wire >around it, heat shrink, etc? > >Thanks, > >John I've not published any specifics on utilizing reed-switches as current sensors. They're used in MANY similar applications on our production airplanes. Light ON says system IS powered and IS drawing current. Reed switches come in lots of sizes and sensitivities. Get a 275-232 reed relay from Radio Shack. Remove existing excitation coil and rewind with 22AWG for up to 10A circuit and 16AWG for up to 20A circuit. Find minimum number of turns that will close the relay contacts when your electro-whizzie is powered at about 10 volts (end of battery life). http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/CurrentSense.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/DeIce/Pitot_Heat.pdf I've considered packaging calibrated current sensors either with reed switches or perhaps more sophisticated electronics . . . but the reeds are simple, inexpensive and reasonably rugged after installation. You'll need to be gentle on these things while working with them. After the design is fixed, consider "potting" the werks in hot-glue. For individual loose reed capsules check out http://tinyurl.com/yfb3rf http://mpja.com/productview.asp?product=7459+SW http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13078 http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G13997 http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GP57 It takes some experimentation but the simple-ideas that support the invention are sound. We've been doing this in GA aircraft for decades. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.