Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:34 AM - Just A Few Days Left; Trailing Last Year... (Matt Dralle)
1. 06:12 AM - Re: Basic Ford alternator wiring questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 06:14 AM - Re: 28v diesel engine (George Braly)
3. 07:06 AM - Re: 28v diesel engine (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:45 AM - Re: Homebrew AHRS? (Mike@Crossbow)
5. 08:32 AM - Re: Re: Homebrew AHRS? (Stovall Todd Lt Col AF/A4RX)
6. 08:50 AM - Re: Homebrew AHRS? (Mike@Crossbow)
7. 12:27 PM - Re: 28v diesel engine (gordon or marge)
8. 02:11 PM - Re: ratcheting crimp tool source ()
9. 03:37 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/28/06 (Martin & Chris)
10. 03:38 PM - Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working (FlyboyTR)
11. 04:20 PM - Re: Strobes wiring (Frank Stringham)
12. 06:51 PM - Re: 28v diesel engine (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 06:51 PM - Re: Re: Homebrew AHRS? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 07:31 PM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/28/06 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: ratcheting crimp tool source (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 09:20 PM - Re: Strobes wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
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DNA; do not archive
| Subject: | Days Left; Trailing Last Year... |
Dear Listers,
There are just a few more days left of this year's List Fund Raiser! Response
has been very good, but we are behind last year in the number of people that have
made a Contribution and as a percentage of the total number of subscribers.
Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists
and the *only* means of keeping these Lists running is through your Contributions
during this Fund Raiser.
Please make a Contribution today!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | re: Basic Ford alternator wiring questions |
I'm finally free to experiment with my new "Coyote" project with a Lyc.
320. I will be using the regular "Cessna" alternator/VR at least to begin
with (day vfr with electric starter/minimal avionics), basically a copy of
my Cardinal to start. My confusion starts when I examine the Cessna
alternator wiring:
My certified Cardinal has the same style alternator, wired as follows (all
wires are shielded):
#8 from alt. A+ lug to Alt breaker, shield grounded to alt. case only
#8 from alt ground lug to firewall bolt, shield at each end tied to end
terminal
#18 from alt Field lug to VR F lug, shield grounded to alt case and
firewall bolt
#18 from alt A+ lug to VR A+ lug, shield grounded to alt case and firewall bolt
#18 from VR S lug to square metal filter lug to power buss, shield grounded
to firewall bolt and again next to filter, shield end at power buss floats
The above is per the factory manual, except for the shielded #8 ground
wire, the Cessna manual shows an unshielded #18.
I assume the factory used shielded wire for abrasion protection and/or
noise protection, and that the #8 shielded ground wire was an undocumented
later field change?
Questions:
1. I understand the Connection to say that shielding alternator/VR wiring
is not necessary for noise protection, did I miss something?
No, you didn't. I was a tech writer at Cessna when the
shielding protocols were first adopted on the single engine
alternator installations. A prophylactic combination of
"good things" were sprinkled onto some noisy airplanes where
alternator noise was heard in the new ADF installations. The
noise was reduced or eliminated and the practice adopted.
There were NO formal studies as to the operating characteristics
or effectiveness of any particular "good thing". The guy doing
the work was a PhD physicist but he had no test equipment and
zero experience with EMC issues. Nobody in the local industry
did. Beech went on to acquire extensive testing facilities
and experience but the roots of curiosity never took hold
at Cessna's single-engine plant.
2. Does a shielded ground wire create any noise problem potential? If the
engine ground straps are in good shape, is there any reason for the #8
ground from alternator to firewall? Or for any separate ground wire from
the alternator, inasumch as the alternator is bolted to the engine with all
metal bolts (no insulated washers)?
Multiple ground wires give rise to dreaded DC GROUND LOOP
and while they don't obviously "hurt" in most cases, they
never help either. Bolting the alternator to the engine
and strapping the engine to a single-point ground on
the firewall is sufficient.
3. Is there any reason to run the A+ wire from the alternator to the VR
A+, I would prefer to run a shorter wire from the VR A+ to the alternator
side of the A+ alternator fuse on the firewall (1 foot of wire on the
firewall instead of 4 feet of wire running beside the hot engine)?
I presume you're talking about a remote sense wire from
the regulator. Cessna adopted remote sensing protocols
in their regulator specs in the 80's and attached (+)
and (-) sense wires directly to terminals on the alternator.
The notion was that should an alternator experience
an electrical disconnect downstream, that remote sensing
at the alternator would prevent an unstable or runaway
condition. Risks for wiring as you've described are
not high . . . and you concerns for "wires next to hot
engines" are not operable. Tefzel wire is quite content
in the engine compartment compared to the nylon/PVC or
nylon/dacron/PVC wire we were using before Tefzel.
4. Is there a need for wire protection, by shielding or otherwise, since
it runs next to the hot engine from the alternator?
No.
5. Skycrafters sells a high temp "Varglass" sleeving advertised as being
rated to 200 degrees C. Is this an appropriate protection for the
wires? I can't find any information on the internet.
There are a variety of sleeving materials offered
to satisfy a variety of protection concerns but for
Tefzel wire under the cowl there are few if any
concerns. Radiant heating from exhaust stacks are
the high-stress heat sources. Keep your wires and
accessories away from those antagonists and good
order will exist under the cowl.
6. What temp rating should I use for the wires running next to the engine?
Tefzel is rated for continuous operation at 150C
and is quite sufficient for the appplication we're
discussing.
7. Simply, is the following good practice for a Ford style alt/vr: all
unshielded:
#8 "A+" (alt to big fuse); #18 "F" (alt to VR); #18 VR "S" (VR to power
buss); #18 VR "A+" (VR to alt side of big fuse)?
This seems less complicated than my Cardinal. Thank you. Skip Simpson
Keep in mind that what appears to be "more complicated"
may have roots in rational design decisions (like the
remote sensing at the alternator terminals) while
others are wild ass guesses (like the shielding). Just
because it has been done on tens of thousands of "certified"
airplanes does not validate the science behind the
practice. Operational risks for "rewiring" as you've
suggested are very low. Shielding any of these wires
is a waste of $time$ and empty weight budgets.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
Bob,
The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
volts for operation.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 7:17 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
>Comments/Questions: Bob,
>
>I am installing a DeltaHawk diesel engine in my homebuilt and they have
>decided to go with a 28 VDC starter and alternator. I have already
>purchased most of my avionics in 14 VDC. I can buy a step-down
>transformer from Aircraft Spruce, but is there a good way to run
parallel
>14 V batteries for power and still use the 28 V alternator for
>charging? Seems like I'm between a rock and a hard place.
Yup, your sure are! There's no graceful way to
do this. The best solution is to use 2 batteries
in series for cranking, change to parallel for
operating and running a 14v alternator.
bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
At 08:12 AM 11/29/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Bob,
>
>The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
>volts for operation.
>
>Regards, George
Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
issue.
Depending on how much current the engine needs, it
might be better to use a small 28v battery and step-up
inverter as opposed to a 14 volt battery and step
down inverter to support already purchased avioncs.
To craft decision right may take as much engineering
$time$ as the delta-dollars to sell the 14-volt
goodies and buy 28-volt versions.
Life can get complicated sometimes!
I had a weird phone call yesterday from a guy
building a Seawind who was planning to install a
PT-6 engine. He started out asking where to buy
100A fuses and I steered him onto the usual suppliers.
The conversation expanded to wire sizing and system
architecture for engines with starter-generators and
it was obvious that he had little knowledge and no
experience with the issues. Yet as I attempted to
steer him in the right direction, he insisted on
arguing with my suggestions. I kept telling him that
I wasn't going to argue with him and that our
conversation was taking time from my work for a paying
customer.
He kept asking questions and then arm-wrestling
with the answers. I finally suggested that he hire
a professional to craft a wirebook for his airplane
and offered by services at $150/hour. He replied,
"For that kind of money I'll do it myself" whereupon
I opined, "Then I guess you don't need me" and hung up.
That's the first time I've ever had to forcibly
terminate a conversation with a builder. I do
wish the fellow well but I'm not optimistic!
Some of life's complications are truly intractable.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
| From: | "Mike@Crossbow" <msmith@xbow.com> |
Malcolm,
I can confirm that we have not seen a repeat of any of the items called out in
our service bulletin nor have we seen any new failures in the upgraded units.
We have over 30 of these units in the field and have not had any further problems
with the NAV425EX. If you are running the NAV425EX, we offer this update
for free and will do everything possible to minimize any down time to your aircraft.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith@xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77845#77845
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
Michael,
I'm considering purchasing the OP Tech EFIS which uses the NAV420. Has
it suffered the same problems as the 425?
Thanks,
Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mike@Crossbow
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:43 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Homebrew AHRS?
--> <msmith@xbow.com>
Malcolm,
I can confirm that we have not seen a repeat of any of the items called
out in our service bulletin nor have we seen any new failures in the
upgraded units. We have over 30 of these units in the field and have
not had any further problems with the NAV425EX. If you are running the
NAV425EX, we offer this update for free and will do everything possible
to minimize any down time to your aircraft.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith@xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77845#77845
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
| From: | "Mike@Crossbow" <msmith@xbow.com> |
First, I would like to apologize for hijacking the thread. That wasn't my intention.
In reference to the original topic, what Malcolm and others have said
is completely correct. We are approached by customers occasionally that complain
that they could build the unit for far less because the parts are relatively
inexpensive. Yes, the parts aren't too expensive but the software is very
complicated and you will need to rely upon some sort of aiding (GPS, Kalman filtering,
Airspeed, etc..) to improve performance of an AHRS. MEMS gyro's without
this aiding are really not accurate enough for aviation in my opinion. By
the time you are done creating software and testing a fully functional unit you
would have saved a significant amount of money by purchasing a completed solution.
Now, if you want to create an AHRS for your personal enjoyment...then
yes it's probably worthwhile.
In regards to OP Tech, we have not seen any failures with the NAV420's that we
shipped to OP Tech, but a very large percentage of the ones that were shipped
to OP Tech were already updated with the latest hardware/firmware so we wouldn't
expect to see much. The early units that were shipped OP Tech have also come
back to be updated and we haven't been informed of any problems with those
units.
Crossbow is aware of the delay and inconvenience that we have put our NAV425EX
customers through and on behalf of Crossbow I would like to personally apologize
for the amount of time that it took to get this fix in place. We have been
updating these units since May of this year and are confident that the fixes
we have in place remedy all noted issues that are stated in the service bulletin.
--------
Michael Smith
Application Engineer Inertial Systems
Crossbow Technology
msmith@xbow.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77859#77859
Message 7
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| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
At 08:12 AM 11/29/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>--> <gwbraly@gami.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
>volts for operation.
>
>Regards, George
Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
issue.
George/Bob: The fuel injection system on the Deltahawk is mechanical
(unless they have changed recently} so there are no electrical requirements
other than starting.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: ratcheting crimp tool source |
For those looking for an inexpensive crimp tool that appears identical
to the one sold by B & C, check out Harbor Freight- item 93977. I
bought one today for $15
TJ
--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
Message 9
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/28/06 |
I just came across this information regarding an auto starter motor adaptor.
Has any on the list seen this or used the plans ?
http://abianconi.hypermart.net/Starter-Adapter.html
Martin in Oz
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Continental IO-240: Alternator quit working |
I pulled the engine today for access to the alternator. There was one nut (top)
that was almost impossible to remove (ended up removing the starter for easier
access) on the alternator. The drive gear on the end of the alternator shaft
rotates freely! I have emailed Drake Air (also left them a voice mail...have
heard back from them) regarding their rebuilt units. This does not look like
a field serviceable part as shown in the Aircraft spruce book (doesn't look
the same)! I would welcome any contact names for parts suppliers/rebuilders
that would carry this part. I also realized today that I need to replace the
motor mount bushings!
Thanks again!
Travis :)
--------
Travis Rayner
Mobile, AL
Skystar Vixen
N-789DF
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=77940#77940
Message 11
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I am in the process of wiring the tail / wing strobes. I have grounded each
wire at the power pack location by bundeling them together and securing them
to the strobe power pack base. Now the ??? At the strobe end should the
ground wire be grounded at this point or taken back to the fairwall ground
block. Also the foil shield does it get any special treatment or just
terminated at each end with no attachment to the airframe.
TIA
Frank @ SGU and SLC wiring / fiberglassing RV7A
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends
list.
Message 12
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| Subject: | 28v diesel engine |
At 03:25 PM 11/29/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
>Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:04 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 28v diesel engine
>
>At 08:12 AM 11/29/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >--> <gwbraly@gami.com>
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >The fuel injection control system on the diesel engine may require 28
> >volts for operation.
> >
> >Regards, George
>
> Hmmm . . . so those guys are going electronic too . . .
> I guess it comes down to a $time$/weights/parts-count
> issue.
>
> George/Bob: The fuel injection system on the Deltahawk is mechanical
>(unless they have changed recently} so there are no electrical requirements
>other than starting.
Good to know. That makes integration of that engine a whole
lot easier! Thanks Gordon.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Homebrew AHRS? |
At 08:50 AM 11/29/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
>First, I would like to apologize for hijacking the thread.
Nobody "hijacks" anything if they have good
data to share . . .
> That wasn't my intention. In reference to the original topic, what
> Malcolm and others have said is completely correct. We are approached by
> customers occasionally that complain that they could build the unit for
> far less because the parts are relatively inexpensive. Yes, the parts
> aren't too expensive but the software is very complicated and you will
> need to rely upon some sort of aiding (GPS, Kalman filtering, Airspeed,
> etc..) to improve performance of an AHRS. MEMS gyro's without this
> aiding are really not accurate enough for aviation in my opinion. By the
> time you are done creating software and testing a fully functional unit
> you would have saved a significant amount of money by purchasing a
> completed solution. Now, if you want to create an AHRS for your personal
> enjoyment...then yes it's probably worthwhile.
>
>In regards to OP Tech, we have not seen any failures with the NAV420's
>that we shipped to OP Tech, but a very large percentage of the ones that
>were shipped to OP Tech were already updated with the latest
>hardware/firmware so we wouldn't expect to see much. The early units that
>were shipped OP Tech have also come back to be updated and we haven't been
>informed of any problems with those units.
>
>Crossbow is aware of the delay and inconvenience that we have put our
>NAV425EX customers through and on behalf of Crossbow I would like to
>personally apologize for the amount of time that it took to get this fix
>in place. We have been updating these units since May of this year and
>are confident that the fixes we have in place remedy all noted issues that
>are stated in the service bulletin.
Mike, thanks for monitoring the List and for
joining this conversation. Did we meet at
Raytheon's Missiles Division when Crossbow
came out to propose an AHRS for our AQM-37D
target upgrade?
I looked for my business cards from those meetings
but they were now quite some time ago . . . about
10 years I think.
bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/28/06 |
At 09:36 AM 11/30/2006 +1000, you wrote:
>
>
>I just came across this information regarding an auto starter motor adaptor.
>Has any on the list seen this or used the plans ?
>
>http://abianconi.hypermart.net/Starter-Adapter.html
>
>Martin in Oz
I've .pdf'ed the data package and posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Starters/Lycoming_Starter_Adapter.pdf
If anyone has a chance to try this out, please post
your discoveries here on the List.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: ratcheting crimp tool source |
At 04:07 PM 11/29/2006 -0600, you wrote:
>For those looking for an inexpensive crimp tool that appears identical to
>the one sold by B & C, check out Harbor Freight- item 93977. I bought one
>today for $15
>TJ
That's a good tool. I've checked them against
similar and it appears to be a member of the
clones for this style of tool. They're on sale
right now on the Harbor Freight website for
$10.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 16
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At 05:18 PM 11/29/2006 -0700, you wrote:
><fstringham@hotmail.com>
>
>I am in the process of wiring the tail / wing strobes. I have grounded
>each wire at the power pack location by bundeling them together and
>securing them to the strobe power pack base.
I'm not sure which wires your're referring to.
The cables from each tube assembly are usually 20AWG
twisted trios with a foil shield and drain-wire. You
ground each drain wire to the strobe power supply base.
All other wires ought to drop into pins on connectors
> Now the ??? At the strobe end should the ground wire be grounded at this
> point or taken back to the fairwall ground block. Also the foil shield
> does it get any special treatment or just terminated at each end with no
> attachment to the airframe.
Nothing attaches to the airframe at the tube end of
each cable. What does the installation drawings
for the strobe system show? The drawings should
be very explicit as to how each conductor in their
system is connected.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
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