---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/01/06: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:41 AM - Re: Switch source (Carlos Trigo) 2. 06:49 AM - Re: Switch source (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:59 AM - Re: Switch source (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Switch source (Pascal GROELL) 5. 08:20 AM - Re: Auto-pilots (Bob Verwey) 6. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Recommendations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:23 AM - Super-Battery pedigree? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:44 AM - Avionics power distribution (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:51 AM - Re: Auto-pilots (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 08:51 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Recommendations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Recommendations (Rob Housman) 12. 09:44 AM - Vx Aviation Products now Available Directly from Aircraft Extras (Vern Little) 13. 09:44 AM - Re: Auto-pilots (Bill Dube) 14. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Alternator Recommendations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 11:15 AM - Re: Auto-pilots (David M.) 16. 12:52 PM - Re: Auto-pilots (Bill Dube) 17. 01:27 PM - Re: Auto-pilots (Matt Prather) 18. 06:37 PM - Lightspeed ignition wiring (Chris Fordham) 19. 07:53 PM - Re: Lightspeed ignition wiring (David Chalmers) 20. 08:22 PM - Re: Auto-pilots (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 08:24 PM - Re: Auto-pilots (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 08:28 PM - Re: Auto-pilots (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 08:32 PM - Re: Auto-pilots (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 11:10 PM - Re: Re: Lightspeed ignition wiring (James Quinn) 25. 11:30 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 26. 11:37 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:52 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch source Answers in order of post appearance :-) : Matt No problem with your misidentification. I will google it and try to find a more favourable vendor. Kevin Thanks very much for your offer. If I cannot find a better source, I'll come back and ask for your help from Canada. Stein No wonder you're curious. The reason I need this kind of switch is because I'm installing the Flaps Positioning System that I bought from Aircraft Extras, which calls for 3 switches : 1 selector switch between Automatic and Manual operation ( SPDT On-On switch ), 1 Automatic Flaps switch ("normal" SPDT (On)-Off-(On) ), which operates the flaps to stop where you programmed it and automatically positions the elevator trim, and finally a Manual Flaps switch, which is a back-up or emergency switch, to operate the flaps when and if the system fails. This last switch connects the flap motor directly to +12V and must be acomplished by 2 SPDT On-None-(On) switches, or (I figured it out, I hope I'm right) by 1 DPDT (On)-On-(On), wich is what I'm looking for Richard I surely got the flaps switch from Van's (although I couldn't find it - well, I got it some 4 years ago), but as you can see from the above explanation, it doesn't suit my need, unless I use a double relay board. Also, thanks for your offer to get the switch for me. I'll get back if I can't find it. Aren't this internet groups so GREAT to get help and knowledge!!? Carlos ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch source At 07:56 PM 11/30/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >The datasheet for the Honeywell 2NT1-70 shows that it does have >momentary contacts, as Carlos needs. > >Kevin Horton >do not archive Yes, the -70 is momentary (spring loaded) out of both extremes. It's also progressive transfer contacts. This functionality is attractive for the control of PM motors where it's useful to put a dead short across the motor when power is removed. This short offers "dynamic braking" that reduces coasting after power removal. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps_2.pdf Not than in position shown, middle OFF, the motor is shorted. Given Carlo's position outside the US, it might be easier to implement one of the alternative flap control architectures. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps_3.pdf Here, a couple of automotive SPDT relays (inexpensive and available worldwide) are used to handle motor current. Note here too that with relays in positions shown (OFF) there is a dead short across the motor. The relays are controlled by a single pole (ON)-OFF-(ON) switch that is also inexpensive and more readily available than the elegant but rarified 2-70. Bob. . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch source At 01:38 PM 12/1/2006 +0000, you wrote: > > >Answers in order of post appearance :-) : > >Matt >No problem with your misidentification. I will google it and try to find a >more favourable vendor. > >Kevin >Thanks very much for your offer. If I cannot find a better source, I'll >come back and ask for your help from Canada. > >Stein >No wonder you're curious. The reason I need this kind of switch is because >I'm installing the Flaps Positioning System that I bought from Aircraft >Extras, which calls for 3 switches : 1 selector switch between Automatic >and Manual operation ( SPDT On-On switch ), 1 Automatic Flaps switch >("normal" SPDT (On)-Off-(On) ), which operates the flaps to stop where you >programmed it and automatically positions the elevator trim, and finally a >Manual Flaps switch, which is a back-up or emergency switch, to operate >the flaps when and if the system fails. This last switch connects the flap >motor directly to +12V and must be acomplished by 2 SPDT On-None-(On) >switches, or (I figured it out, I hope I'm right) by 1 DPDT (On)-On-(On), >wich is what I'm looking for Hmmmm . . . how likely is it that an inability to move flaps in this airplane presents a hazard to outcome of the flight? I am exceedingly suspicious of systems offered to the OBAM community that add any kind of automation to the movement of aerodynamic surfaces with motors. In the heavy iron business we have rigorous protocols for the design and testing of any motor driven flight surface. The concerns are not for inability to move the surface but for unintended and unanticipated motion during a high risk phase of flight. Too many designs offered to the OBAM aircraft community worry about inability to move surfaces (as it seems with your description). I've not flown many kinds of airplanes but after the Cessna 150's got their flap extension angles reduced from 40 to 30 degrees, there are no airplanes in my experience that are likely to get into trouble by failure of flaps to move from any current position. This includes airplanes like our Premier I. If I used an airplane in situations were high reliability, positive control of flaps was desirable, the most attractive systems are operated by a handle on the floor. As soon as you start adding features for motor drive, automatic extension, backups to backups, etc. I'm wondering if the "concerns" for useful operation of flaps isn't generated more my marketing hype than for convenient, reliable, low risk use of flaps. A part that is not installed on your airplane is not at risk of failure and offers the lowest cost-of-ownership. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:31 AM PST US From: Pascal GROELL Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch source >> >> Stein >> No wonder you're curious. The reason I need this kind of switch is >> because I'm installing the Flaps Positioning System that I bought >> from Aircraft Extras, which calls for 3 switches : 1 selector switch >> between Automatic and Manual operation ( SPDT On-On switch ), 1 >> Automatic Flaps switch ("normal" SPDT (On)-Off-(On) ), which operates >> the flaps to stop where you programmed it and automatically positions >> the elevator trim, and finally a Manual Flaps switch, which is a >> back-up or emergency switch, to operate the flaps when and if the >> system fails. This last switch connects the flap motor directly to >> +12V and must be acomplished by 2 SPDT On-None-(On) switches, or (I >> figured it out, I hope I'm right) by 1 DPDT (On)-On-(On), wich is >> what I'm looking for. Carlos, I will be using the same system and have pretty much decided to delete all the optional switches. I think if the Flaps Positioning System fails, well I'll consider the flaps have failed. I consider that if you have electric flaps on an aircraft you have to be trained to use your machine without flaps. I think adding all backup hardware is looking for more trouble. My 0.02 cents, Pascal GROELL RV-7A #72588 www.notreavion.net ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:03 AM PST US From: "Bob Verwey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots I have always admired the in the electronics arena -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David M. Sent: 24 Nov 2006 06:54 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots If I can determine and find the right stepper motors, I plan to build my own :) David M. Bob Verwey wrote: > Hey listers, > I'm looking around at auto-pilots. Obviously searched the net a bit, > but still wondering, any recommendations from the list? > > Bob Verwey > A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations At 05:31 PM 11/30/2006 -0800, you wrote: > >Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The >Fujitsu is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation >using PocketFMS and Voyager. When alternator shopping based on the recommendations of others, it's useful to know that there's no such thing as a "Honda" or "GEO_Metro" alternator. 95% of the world's supply of alternators is manufactured by a handful of companies of which folks like Bosch and Nipon Denso are major players. It's unfortunate that so many different versions of electrically identical alternators are offered in so many mechanical variations. But this is like choosing and/or attempting to mandate the language of measurement. It's an attractive idea but fruitless to suggest that all auto manufacturers get together and pick a suite of say 25 parts around which everyone will design their electrical systems. Certainly the parts jobbers and dealers would be delighted . . . as perhaps customers. They'd certainly cost less. Bottom line is that on the shelves of any well stock parts supplier, there are dozens of alternators that will perform just fine in your airplane. The value in selecting a "Honda" alternator may come from the fact that somebody has published drawings for the mechanical interface between THAT particular alternator and YOUR engine. Just keep in mind that electrical and quality issues are tiny considerations compared to size, weight and ease of integration into your airframe . . . and that the number of choices open to you run far beyond anyone's particular preferences or recommendations. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:52 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Super-Battery pedigree? At 12:33 PM 11/30/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Got your email from a builder friend of mine. I guess you are an electrics >expert, so perhaps you can answer my battery questions. > >I fly a Glasair I RG that I finished in 1988. In 1986, when I began to >work on the retractable gear, I bought a 12 volt sealed battery from a >company in Scottsdale, AZ called Electromarketing. I found them in Sport >Aviation. > >Long story short, that battery is still ticking in my Glasair. About 3 >years ago in the winter, it didn't have quite enough umph to start, so I >put a trickle charger on it that came with the battery. It was so old, >that the polarity had fallen off. I figured 50-50 chance and left it >overnight charging. The next day the battery was stone dead. It wouldn't >close the relay. I figured my magic battery was finally dead. However, I >extracted it from the battery box in the tail and brought it home and put >a different charger on it. Back to life she came. I had not opened that >battery box in over 15 years. > >Have you ever heard of a battery lasting this long? > >Do you know what happened to that company? I'd like to buy another battery >from them if the need ever arises. > >I still have the receipt from that company, but have been unable to find >them. I asked EAA about it years ago, but never got a response. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that company. They are probably a distributor and not a manufacturer. I'm not aware of anyone having the success you've experienced. When that battery finally becomes unserviceable in your airplane, you might consider shipping it to me. I'll see if I can identify the source. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics power distribution > Hi Bob, > >Question: Van's RV10 standard Van's wiring schematic. From Avionics master >SCB to the live feed stud on subpanel. All avionics feed from this stud, >Garmin 340 audio panel, GNS530, SL30 Navcom and GTX330 mode S. Is it >acceptable to use an inline fuse in each individual wire coming from the >feedstud or is a fusepanel better? I'm not able to visualize your question. The architectures I recommend and the reasons behind their development are cited in http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf and Chapter 17 of the book. Obviously, there are many variations on a theme that will "function". The need for an avionics master switch disappeared over 25 years ago but it's a concept that lingers on, deeply rooted in our aviation mind-set. If you want to send me a drawing of your proposed architecture, I'll try to be more specific in my answer. Bob . . . ----------------------------------------- ( Experience and common sense cannot be ) ( replaced with policy and procedures. ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ----------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:02 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots At 06:18 PM 12/1/2006 +0200, you wrote: > >I have always admired the in the electronics arena > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David M. >Sent: 24 Nov 2006 06:54 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots > > >If I can determine and find the right stepper motors, I plan to build my own >:) The rule of thumb asks for 30 lb-in of torque at the actuator output shaft. You don't want your one-pass gear reduction to exceed 10:1 (very hard to do anyhow) and 5:1 to 7:1 is better. So you need a stepper good for breaking out of position against a 3 to 6 lb-in load. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yes Bob I agree, but there are alternators that have less than a stella reputation, the Van 35A "Honda" alternator being a case in point. The "Suzuki Samurai" is a ND unit and for the life of me I can't find the ND part number. It was indeed used on many cars the biggest difference being whether it was fitted with a V belt pully or a serpentine. When I found my 80A "Toyota Camry" alt for my IFR RV it cam with a serp pulley, An alternator rebuilder kindly found me a v pulley that fitted. Once you get past the pulley the rest is just fabricating suitable brackets to suit. I would post a note to the "Stratus group" as someone on there will have the part number handy. I would be very surprised if this alt was no longer available. Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations --> At 05:31 PM 11/30/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> > >Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The >Fujitsu is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation >using PocketFMS and Voyager. When alternator shopping based on the recommendations of others, it's useful to know that there's no such thing as a "Honda" or "GEO_Metro" alternator. 95% of the world's supply of alternators is manufactured by a handful of companies of which folks like Bosch and Nipon Denso are major players. It's unfortunate that so many different versions of electrically identical alternators are offered in so many mechanical variations. But this is like choosing and/or attempting to mandate the language of measurement. It's an attractive idea but fruitless to suggest that all auto manufacturers get together and pick a suite of say 25 parts around which everyone will design their electrical systems. Certainly the parts jobbers and dealers would be delighted . . . as perhaps customers. They'd certainly cost less. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:19 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations A quick check with Google found this http://replacement.autopartswarehouse.com/parts/autopartswarehouse/wizard.js p?year=1987&make=SZ&model=SAM--001&part=Alternator&dp=true Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations Yes Bob I agree, but there are alternators that have less than a stella reputation, the Van 35A "Honda" alternator being a case in point. The "Suzuki Samurai" is a ND unit and for the life of me I can't find the ND part number. It was indeed used on many cars the biggest difference being whether it was fitted with a V belt pully or a serpentine. When I found my 80A "Toyota Camry" alt for my IFR RV it cam with a serp pulley, An alternator rebuilder kindly found me a v pulley that fitted. Once you get past the pulley the rest is just fabricating suitable brackets to suit. I would post a note to the "Stratus group" as someone on there will have the part number handy. I would be very surprised if this alt was no longer available. Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:21 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations --> At 05:31 PM 11/30/2006 -0800, you wrote: >--> > >Thanks for the information, I'll research the Suzuki alternator. The >Fujitsu is a Tablet PC I plan to attach to the panel for gps navigation >using PocketFMS and Voyager. When alternator shopping based on the recommendations of others, it's useful to know that there's no such thing as a "Honda" or "GEO_Metro" alternator. 95% of the world's supply of alternators is manufactured by a handful of companies of which folks like Bosch and Nipon Denso are major players. It's unfortunate that so many different versions of electrically identical alternators are offered in so many mechanical variations. But this is like choosing and/or attempting to mandate the language of measurement. It's an attractive idea but fruitless to suggest that all auto manufacturers get together and pick a suite of say 25 parts around which everyone will design their electrical systems. Certainly the parts jobbers and dealers would be delighted . . . as perhaps customers. They'd certainly cost less. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:48 AM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vx Aviation Products now Available Directly from Aircraft Extras Aircraft Extras Inc., and Vx Aviation have entered into a distribution agreement in which all of Vx Aviations products will be distributed by Aircraft Extras. This agreement will reduce shipping time and cost, and give customers broader access to an extensive line of innovative products. Aircraft Extras is located centrally in Columbus, Ohio, and Vx Aviation is located near Vancouver, BC Canada. The founders of the two organizations are both RV builders and engineers. Many of the innovative products developed or marketed by them were developed for use in RVs, but have applications in most amateur-built/experimental aircraft. Many of the builders who frequent vansairforce.net or the aeroelectric-list at matronics.com are familiar with Rich Meske (Aircraft Extras) and Vern Little (Vx Aviation) from postings or as customers of their products. Aircraft Extras now markets Vx Aviations external AoA indicator for Dynon EFIS systems, an audio bus for Sigtronics intercoms, annunciator controllers and wiring accessories for the Rocky Mountain engine monitor. In addition, Aircraft Extras sells Trutrak Flight Systems autopilots, systems for flap positioning, trim control, fuel and oil level warning,, plus various useful add-ons, enhancements, accessories and the famous Meske Tip-Up/Slider modification kit for RVs. A complete list of Aircraft Extras products is available at www.aircraft-extras.com. The Vx Aviation home page is www.vx-aviation.com. For more information: Rich Meske, Aircraft Extras Vern Little, Vx Aviation Thank-you Vern Little ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:50 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more resistance to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the driver silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you must be able to move the stick with shorted motor leads. Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the stepper windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to limit these voltages. Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will break/slip if need be. The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite complicated. :-) Bill Dube' > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" That's the one!...I had to shorten the link to make it work by removing the "wizrd.js" part then I could step thru to 1987 Suz samurai. $130 for a new alt...Can't beat that with a stick! Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Housman Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:22 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternator Recommendations --> A quick check with Google found this http://replacement.autopartswarehouse.com/parts/autopartswarehouse/wizar d.js p?year=1987&make=SZ&model=SAM--001&part=Alternator&dp=true Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:52 AM PST US From: "David M." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough. Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other failure modes even with power removed? Thanks, David M. Bill Dube wrote: > > > Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper > shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more resistance > to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the driver > silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you must be > able to move the stick with shorted motor leads. > > Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large > voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control > surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the stepper > windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to limit these > voltages. > > Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a > prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will > break/slip if need be. > > The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite > complicated. :-) > > Bill Dube' > >> > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:15 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots Stepper may not freewheel with the power removed from the driver circuit. If the silicon is shorted, the stepper will plug brake. If you force the stepper to spin too fast, you can blow out the silicon with over-voltage, and perhaps cause it to short. The back-feed of voltage into the driver circuit (on or off) from the spinning stepper can cause all sorts of problems. If you simply spin the stepper itself too fast, you can possibly arc over, then short the windings, causing it to plug brake. Your auto-pilot system should be designed to be tolerant of all of these fault scenarios. Steppers don't really "freewheel", instead they "cog." Bill Dube' David M. wrote: > > I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough. > Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other > failure modes even with power removed? > > Thanks, > David M. > > > Bill Dube wrote: > >> >> >> Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper >> shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more >> resistance to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the >> driver silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you >> must be able to move the stick with shorted motor leads. >> >> Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large >> voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control >> surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the >> stepper windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to >> limit these voltages. >> >> Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a >> prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will >> break/slip if need be. >> >> The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite >> complicated. :-) >> >> Bill Dube' >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots From: "Matt Prather" Seems I've read of autopilots having a clutch of sorts. I would think that an electromechanical clutch could be included which would allow decoupling of the stepper motor from the control bellcrank. The clutch would failsafe in the decoupled configuration.. Regards, Matt- > > > Stepper may not freewheel with the power removed from the driver > circuit. If the silicon is shorted, the stepper will plug brake. If you > force the stepper to spin too fast, you can blow out the silicon with > over-voltage, and perhaps cause it to short. The back-feed of voltage > into the driver circuit (on or off) from the spinning stepper can cause > all sorts of problems. If you simply spin the stepper itself too fast, > you can possibly arc over, then short the windings, causing it to plug > brake. > > Your auto-pilot system should be designed to be tolerant of all of > these fault scenarios. > > Steppers don't really "freewheel", instead they "cog." > > Bill Dube' > > David M. wrote: > >> >> I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough. >> Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other >> failure modes even with power removed? >> >> Thanks, >> David M. >> >> >> Bill Dube wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper >>> shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more >>> resistance to movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the >>> driver silicon is quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you >>> must be able to move the stick with shorted motor leads. >>> >>> Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large >>> voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control >>> surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the >>> stepper windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to >>> limit these voltages. >>> >>> Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a >>> prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will >>> break/slip if need be. >>> >>> The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite >>> complicated. :-) >>> >>> Bill Dube' >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:12 PM PST US From: "Chris Fordham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring Hi Looking for views on Lightspeed ignition wiring. The installation manual says to run power and ground wires direct to battery terminals to suppress radio interference. With a battery being in the rear of the aircraft and one main fat wire running up to the firewall what thoughts does anyone have on using the fatwire terminal on the start relay instead of running (hot) wires all the way back to the battery terminals. Any real life experience out there? Thanks Chris ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:14 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring From: "David Chalmers" I did exactly what you describe with a Plasma II. I had a fat wire running to a battery in the rear and connected the ignition to the fat wires at the engine. Didn't work too well. The voltage drop in those fat wires when starting was a problem. Symptoms were engine would spin great but wouldn't fire until starter switch was released. I rewired it per instructions with dedicated hot wires back to the battery for the ignition and have had no further problems. Dave Chalmers TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs Redmond WA -----Original Message----- From: Chris Fordham [mailto:fconsult@telus.net] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring Hi Looking for views on Lightspeed ignition wiring. The installation manual says to run power and ground wires direct to battery terminals to suppress radio interference. With a battery being in the rear of the aircraft and one main fat wire running up to the firewall what thoughts does anyone have on using the fatwire terminal on the start relay instead of running (hot) wires all the way back to the battery terminals. Any real life experience out there? Thanks Chris ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots At 10:36 AM 12/1/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >Be sure to test the load on the stick with the wires on the stepper >shorted together. This "plug braking" mode offers MUCH more resistance to >movement than does the motor with open leads. Since the driver silicon is >quite likely to fail shorted (or stuck "on",) you must be able to move the >stick with shorted motor leads. Brushless dc motors have permanent magnet rotors that do have a substantial backdriving force with the windings shorted . . . but except for a small "gogging" force, the backdriving torque is velocity related. In other words, the motor can't "lock up" the shaft with simple shorted windings . . . it can only resist motion with resitance going up as velocity increases. A stepper (or at least all the motors I've worked with) don't have PM rotors and generate no driving EMF or velocity related backdriving resistance. >Also, be sure that the output driver is protected from the very large >voltages that the stepper will generate when the stick (or control >surface) is jerked around quickly. You can also arc across the stepper >windings if the driver circuit doesn't have something to limit these voltages. Again, no permanent magnets, no back emf. > Some sort of mechanical clutch or shear pin in the servo drive is a > prudent addition. A toothed rubber belt can be selected that will > break/slip if need be. I size the pinion gear width and material to provide the last-ditch, mechanical fuse. Usually at about 60 to 100 lb-in of back driving force. > The basics can be simple, but the details can get quite complicated. :-) That's the nice thing about steppers. Very low parts count. Very low risks to manual operability whether energized or de-energized and all without clutches and brakes. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:47 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots At 01:14 PM 12/1/2006 -0600, you wrote: > >I thought a simple breaker in the power supply line would be enough. >Remove the power and a stepper should free-wheel. Are there other failure >modes even with power removed? > >Thanks, >David M. No, steppers have very benign failure modes and none are "runaway" events. You don't want to OVERSIZE the motor because you're depending on the steppers INABILITY to hold position while energized should the electronics hang up. In a de-energized state, steppers are very free wheeling. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots At 01:43 PM 12/1/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >Stepper may not freewheel with the power removed from the driver circuit. >If the silicon is shorted, the stepper will plug brake. If you force the >stepper to spin too fast, you can blow out the silicon with over-voltage, >and perhaps cause it to short. The back-feed of voltage into the driver >circuit (on or off) from the spinning stepper can cause all sorts of >problems. If you simply spin the stepper itself too fast, you can possibly >arc over, then short the windings, causing it to plug brake. > > Your auto-pilot system should be designed to be tolerant of all of > these fault scenarios. > > Steppers don't really "freewheel", instead they "cog." Bill, can you cite me a part number and manufacturer of a motor that exhibits these characteristics? I've done about a dozen programs with steppers of various sizes (20A machines with 400 oz-in of breakout torque) and all would freewheel nicely when de-energize and generated no back-emf. I suppose one COULD build a stepper with a PM rotor but it would be difficult to achieve the 1.8 degree stepping angle rotors that have strong permanent magnet poles. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Auto-pilots At 02:26 PM 12/1/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >Seems I've read of autopilots having a clutch of sorts. I would think >that an electromechanical clutch could be included which would allow >decoupling of the stepper motor from the control bellcrank. The clutch >would failsafe in the decoupled configuration.. A VERY common feature in autopilot servos of yore and even today with the large servos used to fly bizjets. But the little stepper driving a single pass gear train to hold a heading is not capable of producing breathtaking maneuvers and it's output torque is sharply limited. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:55 PM PST US From: "James Quinn" Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring Chris, I have one LightSpeed installed on a IO-320. I had Lightspeed send me a new signal pickup assembly with longer than normal wires. The hot wire goes to a combination circuit breaker/switch and then to the positive battery terminal. Besides the radio noise issue, I believe the real reason is to eliminate points of failure in the wiring run. In my case the only problem I can experience is a broken wire or a broken switch. Otherwise the power will always be delivered where it is needed to run the system. On 12/1/06, David Chalmers wrote: > > > I did exactly what you describe with a Plasma II. I had a fat wire running to a battery in the rear and connected the ignition to the fat wires at the engine. Didn't work too well. The voltage drop in those fat wires when starting was a problem. Symptoms were engine would spin great but wouldn't fire until starter switch was released. I rewired it per instructions with dedicated hot wires back to the battery for the ignition and have had no further problems. > > Dave Chalmers > TriQ200 N4016G 250hrs > Redmond WA > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Fordham [mailto:fconsult@telus.net] > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:35 PM > To: AeroElectric-List@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Lightspeed ignition wiring > > > > Hi > Looking for views on Lightspeed ignition wiring. The installation manual > says to run power and ground wires direct to battery terminals to suppress > radio interference. With a battery being in the rear of the aircraft and one > main fat wire running up to the firewall what thoughts does anyone have on > using the fatwire terminal on the start relay instead of running (hot) wires > all the way back to the battery terminals. Any real life experience out > there? > > Thanks Chris > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:40 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:51 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.