---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/08/06: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:22 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Charlie England) 2. 12:24 AM - Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle) 3. 04:51 AM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Jan de Jong) 4. 05:11 AM - Re: Aluminum Bus question for Bob (rtitsworth) 5. 05:17 AM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (len.baxter@gm.com) 6. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Chuck Jensen) 7. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 05:40 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 05:44 AM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Jan de Jong) 11. 05:54 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Mike) 12. 06:13 AM - FW: Re: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 (glen matejcek) 13. 07:14 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 07:16 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (C Smith) 15. 07:36 AM - Re: Aluminum Bus question for Bob (Rob Housman) 16. 07:50 AM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (Matt Prather) 17. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Chuck Jensen) 18. 08:29 AM - Exterior Lights (Again) () 19. 08:50 AM - New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 20. 09:22 AM - Decreasing current to DC Motor (John Burnaby) 21. 10:18 AM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 22. 10:51 AM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 23. 10:56 AM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Ralph E. Capen) 24. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Larry L. Tompkins, P.E.) 25. 11:30 AM - Re: Decreasing current to DC Motor (Matt Prather) 26. 11:47 AM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (Matt Prather) 27. 12:05 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 28. 12:28 PM - Firewall penetration (Don Owens) 29. 12:41 PM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (Mark Banus) 30. 12:54 PM - Re: [Spam] Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (springcanyon) 31. 01:30 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Ralph E. Capen) 32. 02:32 PM - Re: Firewall penetration (Ernie & Margo) 33. 04:50 PM - Re: Re: LED backlit rocker switches (SteinAir, Inc.) 34. 06:37 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Don Vs) 35. 06:51 PM - Re: [Spam] Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 36. 06:55 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Alan K. Adamson) 37. 06:55 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 38. 07:12 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Don Vs) 39. 07:33 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines () 40. 08:48 PM - Re: Exterior Lights (Again) () 41. 09:45 PM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Speedy11@aol.com) 42. 09:53 PM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Speedy11@aol.com) 43. 10:52 PM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Speedy11@aol.com) 44. 10:54 PM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Speedy11@aol.com) 45. 11:06 PM - Re: Pitot Current Draw (Speedy11@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:37 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw If you want to vary the power to the heater, there are dozens, if not hundreds of designs for adjustable switching power supplies. A switching supply fed by ship's power that's capable of supplying full current to the pitot at full voltage would be the most efficient way to vary the power. This does not address weight issues or the wisdom of reducing the effectiveness of the pitot heat. Mike wrote: > The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First, > flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes > often. If you know what youre doing and are prepared then the risks > are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able > to handle it for better then 20 years. Its not like flying on a > sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, its not > that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the > same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice > in piston powered planes, you dont have many out when the weather > gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP. > > > > As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger > battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less > power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot > heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the > speed, temperature, and heat (laymans terms) required to guarantee > the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a > big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book > to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula > by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you > want to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot > uses so much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice > off the probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C. > > > > Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck > brought it out in me. > > > > Regards, > > > > Mike Larkin > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Speedy11@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw > > > > Chuck, > > You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum. > When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique > on why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several > attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply > want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps > in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to > know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to > do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do > that I'm not going to tell you how to do it. > > As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating. > > Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue > to learn. So, I still find the forum of value. > > I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't. > Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer. > > Stan Sutterfield > > > > Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in > ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question > stands, > how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard > mentioned a > 'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us > non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the > clouds, > close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to > turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short > order; I'd rather it be in long order. > > Chuck Jensen > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:16 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors Dear Listers, I would like to thank everyone that made a Contribution in support of the Lists this year! It was really nice to hear all great comments people had regarding the Lists! As I have said many times before, running these Lists is a labor of love. Your generosity during the List Fund Raiser only underscores the great sentiments people have made regarding the Lists. If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser please feel free to do so. The nice List gifts will be available on the site for just a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution and get your great gift. Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises ( http://www.kitlog.com ), Jon Croke of Homebuilt HELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Paul, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated! And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2006 List of Contributors current as of 12/7/06! Have a look at this list of names as these are the people that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser! THANK YOU! http://www.matronics.com/loc/2006.html I will be shipping out all of the gifts in the next few weeks and hope to have everything out by the end of the month. In most cases, gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service. Kitlog Pro serial numbers should go out via email this weekend. Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:47 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw As others have mentioned, the down side of this scheme is that > your bus gets whacked with a 15A pulse for each operating cycle > of the heater system. One can explore relatively high frequency > switching to avoid seeing the panel lights flicker (and believe > me, they WILL) but this might cause audible noises elsewhere. > Suggest about 30 Hz for minimum observability and below the > audio frequencies of interest in the rest of your electro-whizzies. > There are >1F, < 2mOhm capacitors that one could use to mitigate: http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/car/accessories/capacitors.htm#spl (be careful charging/discharging - operate like a short circuit) 15A for 1/60th causes 0.25V dip on charged 1F. Maybe not as practical as buying off the shelf, but interesting. Cheers, Jan de Jong ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:59 AM PST US From: "rtitsworth" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aluminum Bus question for Bob Here is an excerpt of a reply I got from Bob on a related question several months ago. For more considerations, review the original message from the archive (or email me and I'll send it). Rick Titsworth 313-506-5604 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Common Grounding ... I'm building a composite airplane with AFT batteries (Lancair ES). This would normally result in two large wires/cables running from the aft batteries/contactors up to the firewall/engine (alt and starter) - one live(+) and one ground (-). Why not incorporate/embed a "solid" electrical conductor (ground) which runs the length of the fuselage. For example, this could be an appropriately sized aluminum bar/rod/strap... Depends on how much time you want to spend on it. 2AWG copper is 4 oz per foot. Assuming 8' of cable from battery to firewall gives you 2# of installed weight. 2AWG is about .25" diameter or .05 square-in of cross section. Alum is 63% conductivity of copper so you'll need about 0.08 square-in of alum. A piece of 0.050" x 1.6" wide fills the bill. 96" x .05 x 1.6 is 7.7 cu" of aluminum. 0.1 pound per cubic inch is about 0.8 pounds. Expected weight savings is about 1.2 pounds. You could bring the strap up the inside of the firewall and clamp it up to the firewall ground bus. If you used copper strap, you could solder it to the ground strap for a really good joint. Original message/reply continues... _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Saylor Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 7:19 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aluminum Bus question for Bob Bob, How can I calculate the current carrying capacity of aluminum for sizing of aluminum bus bars. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches From: len.baxter@gm.com These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? and will the neon backlight work on 12v DC?? Len __________________ Carling 632 series switches seem like they might fill the bill: http://rocker-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-rocker-switch__37.asp#elibrary Link to a descriptive pdf file: http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_622_632.pdf Then get them custom engraved.. Or engrave them yourself.. I suspect it wouldn't be too difficult. Matt- > > > Hey all - > > I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 - > and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying > to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for > my project. > > I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my > instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of > the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than > complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the > cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in > the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red > maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and > one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd > get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and > have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I > want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a > flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been > confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions? > > Thanks in advance! > > cj > #40410 > fuse > www.perfectlygoodairplane.net > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:12 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw From: "Chuck Jensen" Craig/Matt/Bob/Bob again/et al Thanks for the technical responses which transcends the proclamation that only dummies fly in ice. And Stein, you have a point if I was only trying to use some reject hand-me-down pitot and I was too cheap to get one of Gretz's very elegantly functional pitots. This isn't about functionality, this is about aesthetics. I have a sharkfin pitot off an old warbird that I use at the tippy-point of the Velocity. The sharkfin perfectly picks up the lines of the winglets, yadda, yadda.....trust me, it's just a personal preference. Unfortunately, the heating elements in it were obviously designed for use in cold weather areas. In the winters, when they saw this sucker coming in, the ramp and line crews left the warmth of their burning trash barrels to comeover and stand by the pitot where there was some real heat!!! My conclusion is if I want to keep the pitot (which I do), I either live with the current draw, which is really not a serious problem for the 60amp alternator and just hope I don't need it at the same time that I start suddenly have a shortage of electrons. While the resistor fix may work, because of the loss to the resistor, the overall amperage reduction is minimal.....kind of like having to spend a $100 to get a $20 tax reduction. The more attractive alternative is duty cycle--assuming it doesn't put me in electron hell. Anyhow, I appreciate the many responses and the many tangents engaged. As to those who thought the thread went on too long and contain too much irrelevant material, just remember--that's why we sort through the pile of straw and horse s--t that was shoveled out of the horse barn with our bare hands---on the oft chance there might be a pony in there somewhere. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc. Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does it shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these posts will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little electrical components...bolt it on and go! Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Hi, Keith, That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to keep the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing is bad enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got bigger problems that a red hot pitot won't solve. Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on for 30 seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total current draw if a person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed whatever extra time available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in marginal icing conditions. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Hallsten Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe. If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but that's my position for now. Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind, flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation. Regards, Keith Hallsten Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen@dts9000.com ) Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do that with a pitot full of ice. So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off 'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw? Chuck Jensen href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m a tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m a tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw At 10:30 PM 12/7/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see >almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm >really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to >the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of >something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the >market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current >to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own >temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does it >shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already >has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these posts >will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy one >brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little electrical >components...bolt it on and go! If the ONLY reason to have a discussion is to make a buying decision on a product, then indeed discussing the physics upon which it operates may be a "waste of time" for some individuals. I'd like to believe that the folks who hang out here are also interested in acquiring a confidence in their decisions based on understanding as opposed to market popularity or customer faith in a particular product. I'm working an EMC problem at RAC right now that is generating a ton of $100/hr email generation and and digestion that ranges all the way from techs to division managers. 99% of what's been written so far has hashed over a lot of facts (knowledge) and feelings (popularity contests) but as engineers, our duty is to not only find and fix the problem but to help everyone understand how we got there. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw At 02:01 PM 12/8/2006 +0100, you wrote: > >As others have mentioned, the down side of this scheme is that > >> your bus gets whacked with a 15A pulse for each operating cycle >> of the heater system. One can explore relatively high frequency >> switching to avoid seeing the panel lights flicker (and believe >> me, they WILL) but this might cause audible noises elsewhere. >> Suggest about 30 Hz for minimum observability and below the >> audio frequencies of interest in the rest of your electro-whizzies. > >There are >1F, < 2mOhm capacitors that one could use to mitigate: >http://www.electronixwarehouse.com/car/accessories/capacitors.htm#spl >(be careful charging/discharging - operate like a short circuit) > >15A for 1/60th causes 0.25V dip on charged 1F. > >Maybe not as practical as buying off the shelf, but interesting. > >Cheers, >Jan de Jong Point well taken. Earlier I mentioned a problem with bus voltage stability encountered with a $50K coffee maker on a $14M airplane. For the entirety of my career I've signed up to the notion that the ship's battery is "the best filter in the airplane". Evidence to the contrary has been laying on the table in front of me since day-one but went unnoticed because I failed to explore the questions. Turns out that a battery presents its specified milliohm source impedance to the bus only while it's DELIVERING energy. Once you elevate the battery's terminals above the energy delivery value (as for charging and maintaining) that battery's resistance to small voltage perturbations disappears. I did some quick-n-dirty looks at tying 1F capacitors across the bus. In this case 50A pulses that produced 4-volt perturbations with a battery on line dropped to 1-volt excursions with a 1F capacitor . . . right in the ballpark with your assertions above. Problem was that while the battery allowed 4-volt, 25 mS perturbations to generate noticeable flicker in cabin lights, the 1-volt perturbations were stretched by the longer system time constant with a capacitor installed. At 50 mS, the 1-volt perturbations were MORE noticeable than shorter pulses of greater intensity! Who would have thunk it? In any case, these studies have generated a profound change in the way I view vehicular bus dynamics. It's interesting how easy it is to be snookered into a belief structure that is wrong. Not just because it's heavily preached and deeply held . . . but because the question, "how does this work?" was never asked. Bob . . . //// (o o) ===========o00o=(_)=o00o======== < Go ahead, make my day . . . > < show me where I'm wrong. > ================================ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw At 08:53 PM 12/7/2006 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > We touched on this in an earlier post. Recall that while you're reducing > > the current through the heater by 1/2, this drops the voltage across it > > by 1/2 also for a new dissipation value of 1/4 the original which comes > > to 29.5 watts for the tube and 29.5 watts dropped across the companion > > resistor for a system total of 49 watts. > >Just a minor point - the 49 W is already 1/4 of the power consumption of >the 'new' pitot tube. The only point I was making was that "I assume >that an amp is an amp and is generally going to produce a certain >amount of heat" was not correct. > >Bob W. Agreed! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:49 AM PST US From: Jan de Jong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw > 15A for 1/60th causes 0.25V dip on charged 1F. Forgot to mention - 0.25V discharge dip is on top of 0.03V resistance drop dip of 15A and 2mOhm. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:47 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Bob, Don't forget just to have a little fun every now and then. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 6:18 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw At 10:30 PM 12/7/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see >almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm >really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to >the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of >something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the >market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current >to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own >temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does it >shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already >has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these posts >will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy one >brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little electrical >components...bolt it on and go! If the ONLY reason to have a discussion is to make a buying decision on a product, then indeed discussing the physics upon which it operates may be a "waste of time" for some individuals. I'd like to believe that the folks who hang out here are also interested in acquiring a confidence in their decisions based on understanding as opposed to market popularity or customer faith in a particular product. I'm working an EMC problem at RAC right now that is generating a ton of $100/hr email generation and and digestion that ranges all the way from techs to division managers. 99% of what's been written so far has hashed over a lot of facts (knowledge) and feelings (popularity contests) but as engineers, our duty is to not only find and fix the problem but to help everyone understand how we got there. Bob . . . -- 11/22/2006 -- 11/22/2006 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:45 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: FW: RE: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net > [Original Message] > From: glen matejcek > To: AeroElectric-List Digest Server > Date: 12/8/2006 8:56:02 AM > Subject: RE: Need engine rpm pickup for Lycoming 360 > > Hi Jay- > > >... need an electronic RPM pickup for the Lycoming... > > Westach makes a unit that screws right on to the tach drive and (I believe) outputs a 5V pulse train. > > glen matejcek > aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw At 06:54 AM 12/8/2006 -0700, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Don't forget just to have a little fun every now and then. > >Mike My work is fun . . . or I wouldn't do it! The coolest feeling in the world for me is to go to bed understanding something that I didn't understand that morning. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:49 AM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, I think the capacitor suggested with a PWM might be your best bet. I have some mil-spec voltage regulators that I think may work as part of the circuit. These are the same regulators that Cessna uses in their panel dimmer circuits, just a more rugged version. Give me a day or 2 to hit the application notes, and I think I can give you a circuit that is cost effective, efficient and produce little noise. That is if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Since I see this component used already in certified aircraft it should be suitable for your application, provided it can handle the current necessary to keep it at the right temp. Some years back I worked with some very precise temperature controllers for infra-red black-body heat sources. Temperature controls accurate to +-.01 deg. C. CS _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:19 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Craig/Matt/Bob/Bob again/et al Thanks for the technical responses which transcends the proclamation that only dummies fly in ice. And Stein, you have a point if I was only trying to use some reject hand-me-down pitot and I was too cheap to get one of Gretz's very elegantly functional pitots. This isn't about functionality, this is about aesthetics. I have a sharkfin pitot off an old warbird that I use at the tippy-point of the Velocity. The sharkfin perfectly picks up the lines of the winglets, yadda, yadda.....trust me, it's just a personal preference. Unfortunately, the heating elements in it were obviously designed for use in cold weather areas. In the winters, when they saw this sucker coming in, the ramp and line crews left the warmth of their burning trash barrels to comeover and stand by the pitot where there was some real heat!!! My conclusion is if I want to keep the pitot (which I do), I either live with the current draw, which is really not a serious problem for the 60amp alternator and just hope I don't need it at the same time that I start suddenly have a shortage of electrons. While the resistor fix may work, because of the loss to the resistor, the overall amperage reduction is minimal.....kind of like having to spend a $100 to get a $20 tax reduction. The more attractive alternative is duty cycle--assuming it doesn't put me in electron hell. Anyhow, I appreciate the many responses and the many tangents engaged. As to those who thought the thread went on too long and contain too much irrelevant material, just remember--that's why we sort through the pile of straw and horse s--t that was shoveled out of the horse barn with our bare hands---on the oft chance there might be a pony in there somewhere. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc. Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does it shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these posts will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little electrical components...bolt it on and go! Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Hi, Keith, That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to keep the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing is bad enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got bigger problems that a red hot pitot won't solve. Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on for 30 seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total current draw if a person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed whatever extra time available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in marginal icing conditions. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Hallsten Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe. If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but that's my position for now. Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind, flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation. Regards, Keith Hallsten Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw From: Chuck Jensen ( cjensen@dts9000.com) Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do that with a pitot full of ice. So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off 'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw? Chuck Jensen href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:14 AM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aluminum Bus question for Bob The electrical conductivity of aluminum alloy 6061-T6 is 43% IACS (International Annealed Copper Standard) and 2024-T351 is 30% IACS. The highest conductivity aluminum alloy (if we can call 99.6% pure aluminum an alloy) is 1060-O with 62 %IACS. So, if you are using conductor grade aluminum such as 1060 for your bus bar (not easy to find in your local Home Depot) use a cross section that is 1/0.62 = 1.6 times the cross section of copper bus bar. More likely you will use 6061 so the cross section must be 2.3 times that of copper for equivalent current carrying capacity. If you use aluminum wire assume that the stuff is made with conductor grade aluminum. Best regards, Rob Housman A070 Airframe complete Irvine, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave Saylor Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 4:19 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aluminum Bus question for Bob Bob, How can I calculate the current carrying capacity of aluminum for sizing of aluminum bus bars? Can I convert copper AWG to square inches then apply a factor for aluminum? Any idea what the factor would be? I want to jump 3-4 inches from a GPU plug to the main bus. #4 copper should be adequate but what size aluminum bar would be equivalent? Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 140 Aviation Way Watsonville, CA 831-722-9141 www.AirCraftersLLC.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches From: "Matt Prather" They should work fine for many 12V DC applications. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf The Neon backlight won't work on 12V DC, but LED is what was asked for.. The datasheet shows 6V, 12V, and 24V DC LED setups, plus one which presumably lacks a dropping resistor (unbalasted). Matt- > These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? and > will the neon backlight work on 12v DC?? > > > Len > > > __________________ > > > > > Carling 632 series switches seem like they might fill the bill: > > http://rocker-switches.carlingtech.com/illuminated-rocker-switch__37.asp#elibrary > > > Link to a descriptive pdf file: > > http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_622_632.pdf > > > Then get them custom engraved.. Or engrave them yourself.. I suspect it > wouldn't be too difficult. > > > Matt- > > >> >> >> Hey all - >> >> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 - >> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying >> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for >> my project. >> >> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my >> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of >> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than >> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the >> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in >> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red >> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and >> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd >> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and >> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I >> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a >> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been >> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> cj >> #40410 >> fuse >> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw From: "Chuck Jensen" CS, I'll look forward to it. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of C Smith Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:16 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, I think the capacitor suggested with a PWM might be your best bet. I have some mil-spec voltage regulators that I think may work as part of the circuit. These are the same regulators that Cessna uses in their panel dimmer circuits, just a more rugged version. Give me a day or 2 to hit the application notes, and I think I can give you a circuit that is cost effective, efficient and produce little noise. That is if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Since I see this component used already in certified aircraft it should be suitable for your application, provided it can handle the current necessary to keep it at the right temp. Some years back I worked with some very precise temperature controllers for infra-red black-body heat sources. Temperature controls accurate to +-.01 deg. C. CS ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:19 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Craig/Matt/Bob/Bob again/et al Thanks for the technical responses which transcends the proclamation that only dummies fly in ice. And Stein, you have a point if I was only trying to use some reject hand-me-down pitot and I was too cheap to get one of Gretz's very elegantly functional pitots. This isn't about functionality, this is about aesthetics. I have a sharkfin pitot off an old warbird that I use at the tippy-point of the Velocity. The sharkfin perfectly picks up the lines of the winglets, yadda, yadda.....trust me, it's just a personal preference. Unfortunately, the heating elements in it were obviously designed for use in cold weather areas. In the winters, when they saw this sucker coming in, the ramp and line crews left the warmth of their burning trash barrels to comeover and stand by the pitot where there was some real heat!!! My conclusion is if I want to keep the pitot (which I do), I either live with the current draw, which is really not a serious problem for the 60amp alternator and just hope I don't need it at the same time that I start suddenly have a shortage of electrons. While the resistor fix may work, because of the loss to the resistor, the overall amperage reduction is minimal.....kind of like having to spend a $100 to get a $20 tax reduction. The more attractive alternative is duty cycle--assuming it doesn't put me in electron hell. Anyhow, I appreciate the many responses and the many tangents engaged. As to those who thought the thread went on too long and contain too much irrelevant material, just remember--that's why we sort through the pile of straw and horse s--t that was shoveled out of the horse barn with our bare hands---on the oft chance there might be a pony in there somewhere. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of SteinAir, Inc. Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 11:31 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Wow! This discussion has really taken on a mind of it's own....I see almost 41 posts in this thread! As usual and in my own sarcastic way, I'm really confused and boggled as to why we're even discussing this (and to the unbelievably detailed technical minutia that has arisen out of something like this)....when there is a perfectly good heated pitot on the market that does EXACTLY what you want it to do....it varies the current to the tube from .1 Amps to 7 Amps depending on it's own temperature. When it doesn't need the heat it just idles, when it does it shoves more power out there. Why re-invent the wheel...someone already has and his name is Warren Gretz! I swear, just reading all these posts will waste more time than the $400 and some odd bucks it takes to buy one brand new....no messing around with all kinds of crazy little electrical components...bolt it on and go! Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 7:18 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Hi, Keith, That was exactly my thought process also. I didn't want a red hot branding iron to bore my way through ice cubes...just warm enough to keep the pitot stuffed full of rain water from freezing. If the icing is bad enough that it freezes over a warm-to-very warm pitot, I've got bigger problems that a red hot pitot won't solve. Since no ideas have been tossed out, I wonder if there is an efficient means of cycling the pitot heater on/off at some interval, such as on for 30 seconds, off for two minutes. This would reduce the total current draw if a person was in the soup, lost electrical and needed whatever extra time available to get to safety but didn't dare to turn off the pitot in marginal icing conditions. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith Hallsten Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 10:36 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, I mounted a 28v "Known Ice" pitot on the nose of my Velocity. Since I have a 14 volt electrical system, its power consumption will be reduced by a factor of 4 (power = V * V / R). I figure that is sufficient for my purposes, because a Velocity is NOT a "Known Ice" type of airframe. If I should find enough ice to overwhelm my "lightweight" pitot heating system, I have bigger problems than the pitot. I'm not flying yet, but that's my position for now. Actually, now that we all have GPS available to us, loss of pitot is not as critical as it used to be. With a fat margin to allow for wind, flying by groundspeed is generally a fair approximation. Regards, Keith Hallsten Subject: RE: Pitot Current Draw From: Chuck Jensen (cjensen@dts9000.com ) Date: Mon Dec 04 - 12:06 PM Wow, I must be hard-of-speaking (or writing). I concede that flying into icing when not so equipped is not a good idea, but if a person flies IFR in the winter most anywhere in the continental US, sooner or later, they'll pick up some ice. Even if my wings start looking like something that should be used to cool a gin and tonic, I don't want to lose air speed indication. Granted, I may not know what my new stall speed is, but I would like to know WHAT my speed is...and I can't do that with a pitot full of ice. So, the question on the table is still the same, is there a way off 'turning down the heat' and reducing current draw? Chuck Jensen href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m a tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m a tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c h ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m a tronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List www.aeroelectric.com www.kitlog.com http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:32 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Exterior Lights (Again) 12/08/2006 Hello Jim, 1)You wrote: "Also note that FAR 91 requires "approved position and collision lights". In this case FAR 23 applies to experimental." I am not so sure that it is all that definitive. Can I please provide an opinion (copied below) from a previous exchange on this subject? --------------------- COPY FOLLOWS ------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: Reasonable qualification for flight hardware? > 11/09/2006 > > Responding to a previous posting by Dave N6030X > Hello Dave Morris, You wrote: "You probably need to find out whether the > FARs on light intensity apply to experimental aircraft or not." > > This is a question that has no clear cut answer. Let's examine the > regulatory issue in the context of exterior lighting: > > 1) The Operating Limitations for each ABEA (Amateur Built Experimental > Aircraft)** include the following sentence: "After completion of Phase I > flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for night and/or instrument > flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is to be operated under > VFR, day only." > > 2) To the FAA this sentence means that if the ABEA is operated day VFR > that none of the instrument and equipment requirement provisions of FAR > 91.205 would apply. > > 3) This means that during day VFR operations not even FAR 91.205 (b) (11) > regarding the requirement for an anticollision light system would apply. > > 4) But as soon as the aircraft is operated at night or in instrument > flight, either day or night, the provisions of FAR 91.205 (b) (11), (c) > (2) and (c) (3) regarding exterior lighting would apply. > > 5) Each of the subparagraphs listed in 4 above contain the word > "approved". > > 6) But since there are no published certification standards for ABEA there > is no criteria available to measure approval against and one could > conclude that any exterior lighting on an ABEA would be acceptable. > > 7) But logic raises the issue of interface with other aircraft.## The > purpose of exterior lighting is to permit other observers in the air and > on the ground to see the ABEA and react accordingly. If the ABEA is > inadequately lighted then a hazard to others could exist . > > 8) This line of reasoning would permit the initial airworthiness inspector > to examine the exterior lighting of the ABEA with regard to its adequacy. > The inspector could conclude, if exterior lighting is present, that the > builder intended to operate the aircraft at night or in instrument > conditions and that therefore some specified level of performance should > be attained by that lighting. > > 9) A reasonable level of lighting performance to be expected could be > equivalent to that required of type certificated aircraft. > > 10) It is unlikely that the inspector would have either the equipment or > the inclination to actually measure the exterior lighting performance > during his initial airworthiness inspection. > > 11) One course of action for the inspector to ensure that the ABEA > lighting installed would meet some accepted performance standard would be > for him to require the ABEA to have installed exterior lighting approved > for installation in type certificated aircraft. > > 12) The issue may become confused if the builder installs some new > technology lighting (like LED's) that to any unbiased observer is > obviously superior to conventional lighting, but does not carry any kind > of FAA approval marking. To what extent is the initial airworthiness > inspector willing to sign off such lighting? > > So I think that the answer to your question: "Do the FARs on light > intensity apply to ABEA or not?" depends upon the actions of the > individual initial airworthiness inspector. It may also be possible that > an FAA inspector during a ramp inspection could raise this issue. > > OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge. > > **PS: Some people prefer the more benign sounding, but less precise term, > OBAM (Owner Built And Maintained) aircraft. > > ##PS: There are other items of ABEA equipment where interface with other > aircraft or the ATC system require specified levels of performance. Some > that come to mind are communication radios, altitude encoders, > transponders, navigation equipment, and ELT's. In most cases the easiest > way to ensure that specified levels of performance will be met is to > install approved equipment such as that marked to meet a TSO (Technical > Standard Order) ----------------------- COPY ENDS --------------------------- Time: 04:16:16 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: : Rotax Aux Altenator switching. From: "h&jeuropa" We also are using Jim Nelson's crankshaft driven alternator on our Europa Rotax 914. It works very well!! I have also supplied all the necessary parts to others - my local machine shop does a great job. We don't attempt to run both the B&C alt and the Rotax simultaneously. During pretakeoff checks, we verify the Rotax system is operational for use as a backup, but we use the B&C. Note that if you use the vacuum pump drive on 912 / 914 Rotax, it rotates at a slower speed than Lyc / Cont so B&C SD 8 and SD 20 put out less current than rated. Also, a Rotax crank shaft driven alternator runs at 5000 rpm, much less than the rpm that the manufacturer rates the alternator at. B&C L60 at 5000 rpm is 46 A; L40 at 5000 rpm is 33A. We've supplied kits for both. We have L60 on our 914 - fills in the space in the engine mount pretty well. Also note that FAR 91 requires "approved position and collision lights". In this case FAR 23 applies to experimental. Last I checked, the Kuzlemann lights do not meet the spec. But then your inspector probably won't notice or question them. We fitted Whelen lights to our Europa. Jim & Heather Butcher Europa N241BW ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:43 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:27 AM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Decreasing current to DC Motor I have EFI pumps that move way too much fuel for my purposes. Is there an inexpensive way to starve the current to the pump motor so that output is decreased without harming the motor? The pump normally draws 7 amps. Thanks John ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Mark, I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink tube also. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:50 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:31 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches In a message dated 12/08/2006 7:22:38 AM Central Standard Time, len.baxter@gm.com writes: These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? and will the neon backlight work on 12v DC?? See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf One thing I don't like about the 622/632 series Carlings is that the lit rocker operators are clear colors (not translucent) so they may not be very easy to read if engraved. Take a look at these: http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_LRG.pdf Might be a better choice, and many operator colors, clear and translucent, but not LED- still 12v incandescent. Mark ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:42 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Michael, Which one, where'd you get it, how much....yada yada? Ralph Most of my wiring's done - little pieces of laser printed paper stuffed into shrink tubes...... -----Original Message----- >From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" >Sent: Dec 8, 2006 1:17 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines > >Mark, > > > > I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink >tube also. > > > >Michael Sausen > >-10 #352 Fuselage > > > >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >Fiveonepw@aol.com >Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 10:50 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines > > > >In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, >stein@steinair.com writes: > > I'm really confused and boggled > >Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady >lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and >looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One >RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other >recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type >machines? > > > >And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping >them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine >to get this done and move on... > > > >Mark > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:11:15 AM PST US From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Amen, Stein! And it took two weeks for the response that actually answered Chuck's original question! Larry ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Decreasing current to DC Motor From: "Matt Prather" This is just like the pitot tube question.. Old EFI systems had pressure regulators that returned unused fuel to the tank. The pump was big enough to provide all the fuel the engine could burn plus a little bit (to be returned to the tank). My understanding is that newer automotive systems have returnless pressure regulator/pump systems which use pulse width modulation (PWM) to regulate pump output. I think it's likely that your pumps could use such a system. Out of curiousity, wouldn't it make more sense to get pumps that are of the correct scale for your application? At the same time, and with no intent to insult your inteligence.. Fuel systems will require the correct pressure to be maintained at the full flow rate consumed by the engine (when flat-out).. Most IC engines will need around 0.65 lbs/hp/hr of fuel. So, a 180hp engine will use 180hp * 0.65 lbs/hp/hr / 6lbs/gal 19.5gal/hr. When your make 100hp, you don't want to over lean, so the system should have some headroom to provide extra fuel.. Maybe 25gal/hr at system pressure would be a good target for a 180hp engine.. Regards, Matt- > I have EFI pumps that move way too much fuel for my purposes. Is there an > inexpensive way to starve the current to the pump motor so that output is > decreased without harming the motor? The pump normally draws 7 amps. > > Thanks > John ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches From: "Matt Prather" Those are nice looking - probably better than the ones I proposed from a readability standpoint. I wonder of the 632's could be frosted during the engraving process. Seems like that would solve the issue. Matt- > In a message dated 12/08/2006 7:22:38 AM Central Standard Time, > len.baxter@gm.com writes: > These switches are rated for 125v AC ....... are they OK for 12v DC??? > and > will the neon backlight work on 12v DC?? > See: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf > > One thing I don't like about the 622/632 series Carlings is that the lit > rocker operators are clear colors (not translucent) so they may not be > very easy > to read if engraved. Take a look at these: > > http://www.carlingtech.com/pdf/CarlingSW_LRG.pdf > > Might be a better choice, and many operator colors, clear and translucent, > but not LED- still 12v incandescent. > > Mark > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:32 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/08/2006 12:59:19 PM Central Standard Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: Which one, where'd you get it, how much....yada yada? Hi Ralph- Mark here. I'm leaning toward the 3000, since I can't see anything very useful on the 5000 that the cheaper one doesn't do. Look at: http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php//masterid=15433815 Looks like a pretty decent product/prices. One thing I don't like about them is that they seem to print the label only once on one side of the tube- Brady labels I've used before would print 3 or 4 times across the width of the label (sticker, not tube), then it would wrap around the wire, making the number visible from all sides- pretty handy. Still looking... Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:39 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetration From: "Don Owens" I have the need to bring several bundles of wire through my RV-7 firewall. I have some of the two-piece, stainless, firewall shields, but can't help but think there is a better way. Any great ideas out there [Question] Thanks, Don Owens Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p211#80211 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:41:55 PM PST US From: "Mark Banus" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED backlit rocker switches .....I ordered a sample, but they are a bit bigger than I'd like, so I am now looking at these: http://www.engravers.net/aircraft/rocker_switches.htm which are available with neon or incandescent bulbs. Will order a sample and see how they look. If anyone DOES know of some alternatives, particularly with LEDs I'd love to hear about them!.......... CAUTION: I ordered these AML switches for my Glasair and received the NEON bulbs (AML36). You do not want them as they will not light up with 14V. You will need the incandescent bulbs for 14v (AML-34). ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:42 PM PST US From: "springcanyon" Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Michael, I am not familiar with these machines how does it print on shrink tubing? Don Owens Mark, I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. :-) Prints on a shrink tube also. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark -- 12:53 PM ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:58 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Thanks - I'll check it out too! -----Original Message----- >From: Fiveonepw@aol.com >Sent: Dec 8, 2006 3:00 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines > >In a message dated 12/08/2006 12:59:19 PM Central Standard Time, >recapen@earthlink.net writes: >Which one, where'd you get it, how much....yada yada? >Hi Ralph- Mark here. I'm leaning toward the 3000, since I can't see >anything very useful on the 5000 that the cheaper one doesn't do. Look at: > >http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php//masterid=15433815 > >Looks like a pretty decent product/prices. One thing I don't like about them >is that they seem to print the label only once on one side of the tube- Brady >labels I've used before would print 3 or 4 times across the width of the >label (sticker, not tube), then it would wrap around the wire, making the number >visible from all sides- pretty handy. Still looking... > >Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:11 PM PST US From: "Ernie & Margo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetration Don: Since you are building an RV look in the Vans catalogue under Firewall Shields. The "One Hole Eyeball" (EYEBALL TTP-125) is very superior to the two piece shields as well as the others. You drill one hole (albeit a large one). No rivets or screws. You don't have to install the split halves until you are completely done your project (can always add an extra wire). Only two negatives: First, it's expensive (worth every penny). Second, you have to remember to screw the retaining ring on when you install the eyeball -- before you run any wire) Don't ask how I learned that lesson. Other places sell them for roughly the same price - around $25.00. Good luck with your project. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Owens" Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 3:24 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetration > > > I have the need to bring several bundles of wire through my RV-7 firewall. > I have some of the two-piece, stainless, firewall shields, but can't help > but think there is a better way. Any great ideas out there [Question] > > Thanks, > Don Owens > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p211#80211 > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:31 PM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED backlit rocker switches BINGO! These are almost exclusively what all of us "in the business" use on panels. The Honeywell AML's are top quality, and you can get the rockers in a variety of colors. Best of all, the are nicely sized and egrave VERY nicely from Wayne at Engravers.... I would stay away from the Carlings. We've used them before and frankly they are kind of a crappy switch (both of the series mentioned previously in this string). Regarding lights, don't waste your time on incandescents for the AML's. It's not a matter of IF they will burn out, but WHEN. In all the panels we build we put only LED's in them....plus the neat thing is the LED's are avaiable in a variety of colors, so if you put them behind the white rocker covers, you get a nice blue, orange, gree, etc.. color when they are turned on! Anyway, they are not cheap but the switches are very high quality and professional looking. Believe me, we've used almost every rocker out there (Carling, Otto, Eaton, etc..) and as of today the only thing we really encourage is the Honeywell AML's. Just my 2 cents as usual! Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mark Banus Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:37 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED backlit rocker switches ......I ordered a sample, but they are a bit bigger than I'd like, so I am now looking at these: http://www.engravers.net/aircraft/rocker_switches.htm which are available with neon or incandescent bulbs. Will order a sample and see how they look. If anyone DOES know of some alternatives, particularly with LEDs I'd love to hear about them!.......... CAUTION: I ordered these AML switches for my Glasair and received the NEON bulbs (AML36). You do not want them as they will not light up with 14V. You will need the incandescent bulbs for 14v (AML-34). ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 06:37:41 PM PST US From: "Don Vs" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up. You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don -----Original Message-----[dsvs] From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" The kit I bought is The Dymo RhinoPro 5000: http://global.dymo.com/enUS/ProductAccessories/RhinoPRO_5000_Hard_Case_K it.html If you scroll down to accessories you'll see that you can get label cartridges that are actually shrink wrap tubing. They also have a polyester label that is very durable. Look around and you can find the kit for about $150. Michael From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:53 PM Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Michael, I am not familiar with these machines - how does it print on shrink tubing? Don Owens Mark, I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink tube also. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:01 PM PST US From: "Alan K. Adamson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Probably that link needs to be www.imagesupply.com and the model needs to be the 2012xlb (don't think the 2011 support tube tape at least not from the imagesupply website anyway... FWIW, Alan _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Vs Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up. You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don -----Original Message-----[dsvs] From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:50 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" I believe you can do that with the 5000 and regular labels. It's at my shop still packed up or I would check for sure. Michael From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/08/2006 12:59:19 PM Central Standard Time, recapen@earthlink.net writes: Which one, where'd you get it, how much....yada yada? Hi Ralph- Mark here. I'm leaning toward the 3000, since I can't see anything very useful on the 5000 that the cheaper one doesn't do. Look at: http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php//masterid=15433815 Looks like a pretty decent product/prices. One thing I don't like about them is that they seem to print the label only once on one side of the tube- Brady labels I've used before would print 3 or 4 times across the width of the label (sticker, not tube), then it would wrap around the wire, making the number visible from all sides- pretty handy. Still looking... Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:55 PM PST US From: "Don Vs" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Right on both counts, sorry about that. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alan K. Adamson Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 6:55 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Probably that link needs to be www.imagesupply.com and the model needs to be the 2012xlb (don't think the 2011 support tube tape at least not from the imagesupply website anyway... FWIW, Alan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Vs Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:37 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up. You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don -----Original Message-----[dsvs] From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:12 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Brady makes excellent equipment for wire marking among other things. Check out this website. http://www.bradyid.com/ Kent do not archive ---- Don Vs wrote: > Right on both counts, sorry about that. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alan K. > Adamson > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 6:55 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines > > > Probably that link needs to be www.imagesupply.com and the model needs to > be the 2012xlb (don't think the 2011 support tube tape at least not from the > imagesupply website anyway... > > FWIW, > Alan > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Vs > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:37 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines > > > Try the K-Son #2011xlb available from www.magesupply.com it is a little > expensive at $319 but I have the one it replaces and I would not give it up. > You can get tubes for any size wire you use in an airplane. Don > -----Original Message-----[dsvs] > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of > Fiveonepw@aol.com > Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines > > > In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, > stein@steinair.com writes: > I'm really confused and boggled > Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady > lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking > for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister > recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there > from actual users of one of these type machines? > > And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping > them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to > get this done and move on... > > Mark > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref > "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. > com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.kitlog.com">www.kitlog.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref > "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics. > com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:40 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Exterior Lights (Again) 12/08/2006 Hello Jim, Thanks for your prompt and considered reply. You wrote: "The standard is for lighting not ABEA." Yes, there is a published standard for exterior lighting in FAR Part 23. The issue is: Does that Part 23 standard, in a formal, explicit, regulatory manner, apply to exterior lighting installed on an ABEA (Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft)? Or, more broadly, does any published FAA standard apply to an ABEA and the equipment installed upon it? A while back I was involved in an issue where a DAR performing an initial airworthiness inspection on an ABEA was attempting to force a builder to replace his seat belts / shoulder harnesses with those marked with TSO tags. I appealed to FAA Headquarters on behalf of the builder and William O'Brien replied thusly: on 09/02/2003 "Subject: Re: Shoulder Harness TSO. There is no certification requirement for a TSO shoulder harness for amateur-built. The word experimental means that the aircraft does not meet a standard." This tells me that no explicit, published, formal regulatory standards must be met by either the equipment on an ABEA or the ABEA itself. So why don't we have just a bunch of unsafe junk flying around in the form of ABEA's? It is because: A) Most builders are reasonable people, and B) There is a significant weight of process, training, accepted airworthiness practices, and Administrator level approval or disapproval power in the hands of the initial airworthiness inspector of each ABEA. And I believe that those inspectors give more weight to those equipment items on ABEA that can affect other aircraft and ATC operations than they do to an item that would affect only the occupants of the ABEA. That is why those occupants are given fair warning by mandatory signs and a placard in that ABEA that they are entering territory not entirely protected by published US Government aviation standards. As I have pointed out previously there are certain items of equipment that must meet interface, compatibility, and functional criteria with entities outside of the ABEA itself and usually the easiest way to accomplish those goals is to install a piece of FAA approved equipment. OC -- The best investment we will ever make is in gathering knowledge. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Butcher" Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Exterior Lights (Again) > Interesting comment. After reading your COPY I have to agree that ABEA by > 91.319 (d) (2) can operate day VFR without fulfilling the requirements of > 91.205. To operate night or IFR then 91.205 applies and approved is > defined > in FAR 1.1 as "approved by the Administrator". The most common way that > is > done is by FAR, in this case, FAR 23. > > I guess I disagree that " 6) But since there are no published > certification > standards for ABEA there is no criteria available to measure approval > against and one could conclude that any exterior lighting on an ABEA would > be acceptable." The standard is for lighting not ABEA. > > Just my interpretation. > > Jim Butcher ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:57 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Mike Larkin, I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you didn't answer any questions - at least any questions that had been asked. Chuck asked about how to wire his pitot heat so as to have the option to cycle from low heat to high heat. I don't agree with Chuck regarding the wisdom of using a lower heat setting to save power in IMC icing conditions if the alternator fails, but his question is not, "Should I use a lower heat setting?" His question is, "How do I wire so to obtain my choice of heat settings?" We all have personal stories to tell. They aren't relevant to Chuck's question unless they are related to how one wires one's electrical system to obtain high-low pitot heat. My personal philosophy regarding icing conditions in SE piston powered aircraft is exactly the same as yours. But, my philosophy about flying in icing conditions is not relevant to Chuck's question. The only answer or opinion that Chuck wants is the one that describes to him how to wire his electrical system to permit high and low pitot heat settings. We have to leave it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if it is wise to employ it in icing conditions. Regards, Stan Sutterfield The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First, flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP. As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed, temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the probe in 100% humidity at temperatures ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:08 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Matt, An interesting concept. Stan Sutterfield Why doesn't anyone have a pitot tube heated directly by the combustion of a hydrocarbon ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:11 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Dr. Rodney, Tell me, o wise one, how can one read the mind of another to determine whether or not he might misuse information you provide? You, and others, cannot police everyone's thoughts. Nor should you. Regards, Grasshopper I believe I have some measure of culpability for the actions of others if I have enabled them in some way to DO something bad with the information they're gathering. And, I believe the listers here believe that too! We listers want everyone here to play safe! ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:51 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Thank you, Raymond. I could not have said it better. Stan Sutterfield Rodney (O Wise Master), Pretty arrogant of you to think that you have control of or responsibility for another's actions and to think that you have any right to try to impose your values on another by attempting to control their actions. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:19 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Wow, a recent first flight? Tell us about it. Do you have photos posted anywhere? Couldn't connect to your web site. Stan Sutterfield Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.) -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.