---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/09/06: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:13 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (raymondj) 2. 04:49 AM - Re: Firewall penetration (glen matejcek) 3. 06:49 AM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (jerb) 4. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Chuck Jensen) 5. 07:46 AM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (Bob White) 6. 08:48 AM - Re: Decreasing current to DC Motor (John Burnaby) 7. 08:48 AM - Re: LED backlit rocker switches (Ken) 8. 10:24 AM - Re: Firewall penetration (Don Owens) 9. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Pitot Current Draw (C Smith) 10. 02:14 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (sarg314) 11. 03:50 PM - Re: [Spam] Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (bob noffs) 12. 03:50 PM - LED Strobe Lights (D Fritz) 13. 04:24 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Bill Boyd) 14. 06:11 PM - Re: New Topic! Wire label-making machines (Fiveonepw@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:13 AM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Well stated Mr. Sutterfield. do not archive Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:45 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Mike Larkin, I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you didn't answer any questions - at least any questions that had been asked. Chuck asked about how to wire his pitot heat so as to have the option to cycle from low heat to high heat. I don't agree with Chuck regarding the wisdom of using a lower heat setting to save power in IMC icing conditions if the alternator fails, but his question is not, "Should I use a lower heat setting?" His question is, "How do I wire so to obtain my choice of heat settings?" We all have personal stories to tell. They aren't relevant to Chuck's question unless they are related to how one wires one's electrical system to obtain high-low pitot heat. My personal philosophy regarding icing conditions in SE piston powered aircraft is exactly the same as yours. But, my philosophy about flying in icing conditions is not relevant to Chuck's question. The only answer or opinion that Chuck wants is the one that describes to him how to wire his electrical system to permit high and low pitot heat settings. We have to leave it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if it is wise to employ it in icing conditions. Regards, Stan Sutterfield The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First, flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP. As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed, temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want to hear but the facts are the facts. Thee it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if it is wise to employ it in icing conditions. Regards, Stan Sutterfield The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First, flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP. As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed, temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C. Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck brought it out in me. Regards, Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum. When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do that I'm not going to tell you how to do it. As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating. Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to learn. So, I still find the forum of value. I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't. Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer. Stan Sutterfield Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands, how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a 'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds, close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short order; I'd rather it be in long order. Chuck Jensen ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:11 AM PST US From: "glen matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Firewall penetration Hi Don > I have the need to bring several bundles of wire through my RV-7 firewall. > I have some of the two-piece, stainless, firewall shields, but can't help > but think there is a better way. Any great ideas out there [Question] I used Bob's stainless grab bar idea, and really like it. Search the archives, look at http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html , and consider using the cut off ends of a handicapped shower grab bar. I think I paid $14 or $17 for the shortest one I could find, which of course yielded up 2 penetration fittings. One is big enough to handle 3 heavy engine / prop control cables, 2 bowdens, the MP line, a #2 battery cable, and the power feed from the alternator. The other one on the other side of the fire wall has all the sensor lines. I'm quite happy with the way it has turned out- glen matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:10 AM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches You may want to look into the light strips. Come in different lengths and sizes. Low power consumption. jerb At 10:20 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote: > > >Hey all - > >I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 - >and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying >to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for >my project. > >I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my >instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of >the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than >complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the >cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in >the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red >maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and >one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd >get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and >have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I >want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a >flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been >confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions? > >Thanks in advance! > >cj >#40410 >fuse >www.perfectlygoodairplane.net > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw From: "Chuck Jensen" Stan, You're right in that there was a lot of circling of the opinion vultures before the meat was ripe to eat on this one--but it wasn't wasted time. As you pointed out, my question was 'how to do it' and not 'is it a good idea'. Eventually, the first question was answered though the early hits addressed the second question, which was not asked. However, as said, that was not wasted time. All education and wisdom on this site is not necessarily committable to a formula. The opinions expressed, some relevant, others not, at least got me thinking...which is a good thing for all of us to do when we are doing something non-standard. Sometimes, we get so focused on a goal that our mental blinders causes us to lose sight of the peripheral issues which are raised for (re)consideration by some of the misdirected postings. So, I dug through that pile of straw and stuff and found the pony. I didn't like his color or his size, but he is what he is, so now I have to decide what to do about him. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 12:45 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Mike Larkin, I don't mean to be sarcastic, but you didn't answer any questions - at least any questions that had been asked. Chuck asked about how to wire his pitot heat so as to have the option to cycle from low heat to high heat. I don't agree with Chuck regarding the wisdom of using a lower heat setting to save power in IMC icing conditions if the alternator fails, but his question is not, "Should I use a lower heat setting?" His question is, "How do I wire so to obtain my choice of heat settings?" We all have personal stories to tell. They aren't relevant to Chuck's question unless they are related to how one wires one's electrical system to obtain high-low pitot heat. My personal philosophy regarding icing conditions in SE piston powered aircraft is exactly the same as yours. But, my philosophy about flying in icing conditions is not relevant to Chuck's question. The only answer or opinion that Chuck wants is the one that describes to him how to wire his electrical system to permit high and low pitot heat settings. We have to leave it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if it is wise to employ it in icing conditions. Regards, Stan Sutterfield The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First, flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP. As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed, temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want to hear but the facts are the facts. Thee it to him to decide if such a system is adequate and if it is wise to employ it in icing conditions. Regards, Stan Sutterfield The only way I can answer this question is to tell a story. First, flying in the ice is something many pilot do every year and sometimes often. If you know what you=92re doing and are prepared then the risks are minimal. I have been flying in ice with airplanes that are able to handle it for better then 20 years. It=92s not like flying on a sunny day. But once you get use to it and prepare for it, it=92s not that big of a deal. A few words of advice, no two icing days are the same. Only experience will help you here. My personal feeling on ice in piston powered planes, you don=92t have many out when the weather gets bad. When in ice greater then light find a place to land ASAP. As for you electric question; First the easy answer is to put a bigger battery in the airplane. Second, why would you think that using less power for pitot heat is going to be any better then turning the pitot heat off all together? Unless you run a thermal equation on the speed, temperature, and heat (layman=92s terms) required to guarantee the anti-ice properties needed, then everything your doing is just a big guess anyway. And I guessing that since I have to go to the book to do said equation thoroughly, I would guess the electrical formula by comparison would be a piece of cake. I know this is not what you want to hear but the facts are the facts. The reason that the pitot uses so much power (in general) is that is what it takes to keep ice off the probe in 100% humidity at temperatures < 10dec C. Sorry for the poor and somewhat sarcastic answer, but I think Chuck brought it out in me. Regards, Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 6:57 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, You have just experienced the main thing I dislike about this forum. When you ask for advice or assistance, you will commonly get critique on why you should not do what it is you want to do. It takes several attempts at explaining that you don't care about opinions - you simply want assistance. For example, I've asked how to sample volts and amps in multiple places in my electrical system. I got "you don't need to know that info while you're flying." Regardless, I want to be able to do that so how can I do it? Answer: since I don't think you should do that I'm not going to tell you how to do it. As you've discovered, getting an answer can be very frustrating. Still, I've learned a lot about electrical stuff here and I continue to learn. So, I still find the forum of value. I wish I had the answer for you - I would provide it. But, I don't. Hopefully, you will get an acceptable answer. Stan Sutterfield Okay, I appreciate everyone holding forth that it's stupid to fly in ice....I'm not that dumb, I only look it. However, the question stands, how does one knock down the heat and current draw. Richard mentioned a 'strut switch'....whoever that is. Can someone enlighten us non-electrical types. What I'm concerned about is being in the clouds, close to freezing and loose electrical--I'd just as soon not have to turn off the pitot heat because it's sucking the battery dry in short order; I'd rather it be in long order. Chuck Jensen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:04 AM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Pitot Current Draw Thanks Stan, I have a few pictures but haven't updated the web site in quite a while. Every once in a while it goes off line for a short time. Seems to be working now. I'll try to at least post the pictures today or tomorrow. Bob W. On Sat, 9 Dec 2006 02:03:30 EST Speedy11@aol.com wrote: > Wow, a recent first flight? > Tell us about it. Do you have photos posted anywhere? > Couldn't connect to your web site. > Stan Sutterfield > > Bob W. (Not a thermodynamist but I learned ohms law at an early age.) Do not archive -- N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com First Flight: 11/23/2006 7:50AM - 0.7 Hours Total Time Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:16 AM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Decreasing current to DC Motor Thanks Matt. No offense taken. Knowledge is knowledge. I've found that most EFI systems are content to move copious amounts of fuel and I think that it's because the gearotor pump design, in the size that is found on cars, seems to move between 40 and 65 gph.One can find pumps of slightly less capacity, but they are almost all fitted with push on barbed connections. Mine are push-on at the intake (about 1 psi) and threaded AN fitting on the high pressure end. One pump moves 46 gph @ 45psi @ 7A through 1/4" line! Both push 78 gph. I need a single pump output of about 30 gph.The problem is my single pump is at the edge of cavitation; both on, and I can see air in the transparent intake tubing. A fellow lister gave me a part # for a Napa pump that is the right capacity, but the pump has barbed fittings and needs adaptation. I'm probably going to go this route, but I thought I'd check with the List to see if there was an electrical solution. Pulse width modulation is a possibility but has it's own problems of whacking the bus with surges and potentially causing problems with other equipment. JOhn ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:23 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: LED backlit rocker switches In addition to a glareshield electrolumenescent strip (which I quite like) and integral instrument lighting I wired a couple of $5. miniature Home Depot LED gooseneck lights in series and put them on a dimmer. One on each side of the cockpit above the doors. The gooseneck is about 3" long. They originally contained little button cells and are intended to clip onto a shirt pocket so that the little gooseneck LED can be pointed where you need it. The light spreads out to about a 12" round beam by the time it hits the panel. I have a separate overhead incandescent map light so I don't normally leave the LED's on but they are sometimes handy for illuminating specific switches and they are very low power consumption in case of electrical problems or loss of other lighting. They are wired to the battery bus. These are not ideal as I had to run another ground wire down the gooseneck to isolate the ground wire from the aluminum battery case. You could insulate the case from the airframe I suppose. Seemed like a better idea than holding a flashlight in my teeth though which I was determined not to do... Switch lighting should really allow both identification AND being able to see whether the switch is on or off at a glance. Heavy iron machines often have backlit labeling and lighted 'on' indicators to achieve that. Sometimes the 'on' indicator even confirms functionality such as nominal current is flowing, or valve is open, rather than just indicating switch position. Ken jerb wrote: > > You may want to look into the light strips. Come in different lengths > and sizes. Low power consumption. > jerb > > At 10:20 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote: > >> >> >> Hey all - >> >> I've been monitoring this list for awhile now - I'm building an RV-10 - >> and I wondered if any of the electron whizzes could help me. I'm trying >> to find a good source for custom legend LED backlit rocker switches for >> my project. >> >> I've historically done quite a bit of night flying, and after I got my >> instrument rating, which I did 100% at night (with the one exception of >> the checkride!) I vowed that I would not accept anything less than >> complete readability of all controls and switches at night in the >> cockpit. It just seemed so crazy that I had to juggle 3 flashlights in >> the cockpit - one red led flash attached to my headset, a small red >> maglite for cocpit instruments farther away from the pilot position, and >> one more large one to look for ice on the airframe (yikes!). then I'd >> get into my car after a long night of flying, turn on the lights, and >> have no trouble reading any of the controls or switches. This is how I >> want my aircraft to be! All controls self illuminating, and a >> flashlight for emergency use only! Seems so simple, but I've been >> confounded at every turn. Anyone have any suggestions? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> cj >> #40410 >> fuse >> www.perfectlygoodairplane.net > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:03 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Firewall penetration From: "Don Owens" Thanks Glen - That's perfect - just what I was looking for. :) Don Owens Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p409#80409 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:55 PM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw Chuck, if you could e-mail me off the list, I'd like to discuss your pitot heat requirements. I just joined recently, so I don't have your original post. Have been digging through my notes, and what comes next depends on a few details. Just remove the nospam. pilot4profit@sbcnospamglobal.net CS Do not archive _____ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 11:08 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Pitot Current Draw CS, I'll look forward to it. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:49 PM PST US From: sarg314 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines This outfit has the rhinopro 3000 for $65. Says it prints on heat shrink. >http://www.provantage.com/dymo-15605~7DYMO02H.htm > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:57 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: Re: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines michael, i am interested in the dymo labeler #5000 you have. how would it work for labeling the panel? do the labels really stick? i also read something about being able to print on shrink tube. is this true? thanks in advance, bob noffs ----- Original Message ----- From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 8:50 PM Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines The kit I bought is The Dymo RhinoPro 5000: http://global.dymo.com/enUS/ProductAccessories/RhinoPRO_5000_Hard_Case_Ki t.html If you scroll down to accessories you'll see that you can get label cartridges that are actually shrink wrap tubing. They also have a polyester label that is very durable. Look around and you can find the kit for about $150. Michael From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 2:53 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: [Spam] RE: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines Michael, I am not familiar with these machines - how does it print on shrink tubing? Don Owens Mark, I have the Dymo. Works good, lasts long time. J Prints on a shrink tube also. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Fuselage In a message dated 12/07/2006 10:37:52 PM Central Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: I'm really confused and boggled Stein- what do you guys use to label your wires? I've used Brady lablemaker pro (dot matrix through ribbon) but machine is T-up and looking for replacement, preferably one that prints shrink tube. One RV-lister recommended the Dymo Rhino Pro 5000. Any other recommendations out there from actual users of one of these type machines? And no, I'm not printing & cutting out itty bitty labels and slipping them into little pieces of clear shrink tube- I need a one-shot machine to get this done and move on... Mark www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.kitlog.comwww.homebuilthelp. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigato r?AeroElectric-List ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:57 PM PST US From: D Fritz Subject: AeroElectric-List: LED Strobe Lights How about these strobes? Has anyone looked into them? The appear to be LED based, but also appear expensive. They also have integrated strobe/position lights. http://www.flightcomponents.com/content/view/48/ Dan Fritz --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:49 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines They apparently sell some rather pricey heat shrink for it. 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 inch flat widths. Is any of that going to grip a 22ga wire very well? I'm interested in this technology, but want to know more before I buy any new toys. -Bill B On 12/9/06, sarg314 wrote: > > This outfit has the rhinopro 3000 for $65. Says it prints on heat shrink. > > >http://www.provantage.com/dymo-15605~7DYMO02H.htm > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:41 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New Topic! Wire label-making machines In a message dated 12/9/2006 6:26:35 PM Central Standard Time, sportav8r@gmail.com writes: Is any of that going to grip a 22ga wire very well? >>> They claim the 1/4" stuff will go down to 1.18mm- I measured some 22awg tefzel at 1.25mm. Pretty close, but oughta work. Still not too tickled that it only seems to print the tube on one side. Leaning towards the Brady ID Pal that will print multiple rows that can be wrapped around the wire, plus if you screw up, you can remove the old sticker and put on a new one without removing the termination... Mark ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.