Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:04 AM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:27 AM - Annunciator Panel FYI (Nathan Ulrich)
3. 08:29 AM - Re: Annunciator Panel FYI (rtitsworth)
4. 09:27 AM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Alan K. Adamson)
5. 09:40 AM - Annunciator Panel - The Display (Nick Leonard)
6. 10:25 AM - Re: DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer (springcanyon)
7. 10:29 AM - Off topic - Battery Corrosion (Charles Brame)
8. 01:00 PM - Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion (kensmith@springnet1.com)
9. 01:44 PM - B&C Alternator Cross-Reference (Chuck Jensen)
10. 01:46 PM - Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion (Richard E. Tasker)
11. 03:02 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 12/15/06 (louis palmenteri)
12. 06:08 PM - Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion (Charlie England)
13. 07:00 PM - Re: B&C Alternator Cross-Reference (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 09:26 PM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Annunciator Panel Update? |
At 10:36 PM 12/15/2006 -0500, you wrote:
><aadamson@highrf.com>
>
>Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really
>trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want
>the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.
>
>I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible.
>
>I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major features
>and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included a
>"future additions" section to keep those in perspective.
>
>*If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down a
>final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we
>could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some
>prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work.
>
>Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns that
>we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum.
Emissions from microcontrollers in this application is nil. Aperture
areas are so tiny as to make radiation insignificant. I/O artchitecures
for minimizing external influences (your COMM and Transponder
transmitters)
is also easy.
>Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can
>be done easily.
Single sided is virtually impossible with contemporary components
due to pin-out density and the dearth of thru-hole parts in small
footprints. Go to ExpressPCB.com for their free ECB layout software
and fast-turn, low-cost prototyping services. Their software will
support double sided, plated thru holes + up to two intermediate
planes that can be used for Vcc and Gnd.
>At this point, we should work to a prototype.
>
>Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there are
>questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both
>metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding
>is available and adequate.
>
>Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves.
>
>Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about
>priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software.
>
>Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving
>led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!)
>
>This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we
>are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this.
>
>So, what do ya think?
>
>Hardware
>a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
>b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
>c) microprocessor control
There are many fine processors offered. My personal choices
for new projects tend to check out the PIC series devices
first. LOTS of low cost development tools and a large contingent
of open source, open ideas users groups.
>d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded)
>e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine
>monitor display, EFIS display, etc)
>f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc)
All of the Flash PICs can be programmed in place on the
product.
>g) 8 low level audio inputs
>h) 3 low level audio outputs
>i) audio tone generator
>j) 9-32v DC power supply
>Hardware/Software
>a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc)
>b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc)
>c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto
>adjust, etc)
>d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be
>linked or combined via configuration)
>e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with
>event priorities)
years ago I used a lot of 3 x 5 recipe cards not unlike note
cards for a research project to organize a project like this.
One stack of cards for features (market driven)
One stack for design requirements
One stack for organizing program flow
Nowadays, one could use PowerPoint in the same manner with
the advantage of being able to share the document with others
via the 'net. In any case, the ability to massage individual details
and then rank them for orders of importance and or program flow
is important.
>Future additions
>a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds
>b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology
>
>Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are
>arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :)
This number is irrelevant right now . . . figure out which
features will be watched (market and flight-safety drives
this thinking) first. The size of the hardware is about the
last decision to be made before you start laying out the ECB.
>Alan,
>
>It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e.
>until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm)
>unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a
>subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as you
>could forget to turn it back on/up.
Yup, master caution warning systems often include a mute/stop-flashes
button that will cause the system to stop being a distraction . . . but
the tones/flashing comes back after some period of time . . . unless
the condition clears.
>It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps
>external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very"
>bright during the day, but not blinding at night.
>
>If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the
>LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly.
>Some thoughts on the test function/circuit...
>1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly
>to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent
>but a rather weak "test".
LED reliability is so high that press-to-test of lamps is
not very useful. Better to have a test feature in the processor
that does some nice hat-dance with the lights on demand. Pressing
buttons to "test" things should encompass as MUCH of the system's
hardware as possible. The act of simply testing light bulbs is not
very reassuring.
>2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated
>"all on" mode).
>3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e.
>pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the
>processor/coding as well) which is the most complex.
>
>If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically
>performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on
>automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish
>them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test again.
>Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test button
>(saving a button).
Yup.
Get your PP "note cards" started. Your discussion is already
too large and detailed to let you put your arms around it with
threaded e-mails.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Annunciator Panel FYI |
Although it doesn't have nearly the features of Alan's proposed annunciator,
I built a custom annunciator panel for my Bonanza. It has 16 LED outputs, 13
Stanley bar LEDs and 3 discrete LEDs for marker beacon lights (amber, blue,
white). Except for the marker beacon LEDs, each output can be driven by a
low or high signal. It has a test button, of course. The circuitry is pretty
basic, mostly some surface mount transistors, diodes and resistors. It dims
at night by being connected to the dimmer circuit (switched by the nav light
switch).
I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with
six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu
The annunciator photo is near the bottom. I'd be glad to provide more info
if anyone is interested...
Nathan
Message 3
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| Subject: | Annunciator Panel FYI |
Very nice! Do you have a schematic?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nathan
Ulrich
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel FYI
<nulrich@technq.com>
Although it doesn't have nearly the features of Alan's proposed annunciator,
I built a custom annunciator panel for my Bonanza. It has 16 LED outputs, 13
Stanley bar LEDs and 3 discrete LEDs for marker beacon lights (amber, blue,
white). Except for the marker beacon LEDs, each output can be driven by a
low or high signal. It has a test button, of course. The circuitry is pretty
basic, mostly some surface mount transistors, diodes and resistors. It dims
at night by being connected to the dimmer circuit (switched by the nav light
switch).
I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with
six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu
The annunciator photo is near the bottom. I'd be glad to provide more info
if anyone is interested...
Nathan
Message 4
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| Subject: | Annunciator Panel Update? |
Doug,
Thanks for the comments. Yes, you are correct in your assumptions. One
note about PWM. I'm not hooked on it, as it's a huge EMI/RFI generator.
However LED's don't dim very well with just voltage reductions similar to
what a dimmer would do. They dim more easily with pulses. I'm also not
trying to clone dimmer functionality. When dimming makes sense to be
generated in software, specific to the output (idiot light functions), then
we'll look at it.
Thanks for the comments. Yes, I too haven't not found an annunciator panel
driver that meets my needs. Hence my interest in designing one :).
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug
Windhorn
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
--> <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net>
Alan,
Thanks for looking into this a bit further. I have been trying to locate a
row of enunciators to let me know when some defined parameter is out of
normal/desired ranges (row of idiot lights if you will, with some additional
features such as audio alert via the headphones. After reading over your
list, not sure how KISS your proposal is, but will leave that conversation
to those that might have a better idea of what they are talking about. I am
not sure what all the "features" do, or are supposed to do, or how I would
use them.
I am wondering, though, if dimming wouldn't be better performed by simple
light sensitive resistive circuitry (could be paralleled with user
adjustable) rather than PWM. I am assuming that the enunciator panel is for
the purpose of displaying fault/attention needed events and would not be lit
continuously (not sure what I would want continuously lit on such a panel).
If true, then it is doubtful that any meaningful power savings could be had
by going to the complication of PWM.
Just some thoughts. Hope you can produce a well engineered design/product
(e.g., competitive costs are factored in).
Regards,
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 19:36
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
> <aadamson@highrf.com>
>
> Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really
> trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want
> the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.
>
> I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible.
>
> I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major
> features
> and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included
> a
> "future additions" section to keep those in perspective.
>
> *If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down
> a
> final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we
> could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some
> prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work.
>
> Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns
> that
> we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum.
> Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can
> be done easily.
>
> At this point, we should work to a prototype.
>
> Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there
> are
> questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both
> metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure
> grounding
> is available and adequate.
>
> Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves.
>
> Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about
> priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software.
>
> Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving
> led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!)
>
> This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if
> we
> are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this.
>
> So, what do ya think?
>
> Hardware
> a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
> b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
> c) microprocessor control
> d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded)
> e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine
> monitor display, EFIS display, etc)
> f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload,
> etc)
> g) 8 low level audio inputs
> h) 3 low level audio outputs
> i) audio tone generator
> j) 9-32v DC power supply
>
> Hardware/Software
> a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc)
> b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc)
> c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto
> adjust, etc)
> d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be
> linked or combined via configuration)
> e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with
> event priorities)
>
>
> Future additions
> a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds
> b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology
>
> Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are
> arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :)
>
> Alan - wanna be designer at large ;>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> rtitsworth
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
> --> <rtitsworth@mindspring.com>
>
> Alan,
>
> It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e.
> until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm)
> unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger
> a
> subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as
> you
> could forget to turn it back on/up.
>
> It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps
> external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations
> "very"
> bright during the day, but not blinding at night.
>
> If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the
> LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly.
>
> Some thoughts on the test function/circuit...
> 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly
> to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent
> but a rather weak "test".
> 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated
> "all on" mode).
> 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e.
> pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the
> processor/coding as well) which is the most complex.
>
> If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically
> performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on
> automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish
> them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test
> again.
> Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test
> button
> (saving a button).
>
> Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should
> still be illuminated.
>
> .02
> Rick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K.
> Adamson
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
> <aadamson@highrf.com>
>
> Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.
>
> I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could
> take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of
> inputs.
> It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing
> outputs,
> along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be
> configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or
> other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be
> configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded
> voice
> instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power
> incandescent or LED annunciation lights.
>
> Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and
> 8
> gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board.
> I'd
> look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large
> to
> stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form.
>
> Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do
> the
> Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my
> desire for the above.
>
> Alan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
> --> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 05:30 PM 12/13/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
>><bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>>
>>Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being
>>discussed several months ago?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Bob
>
> That topic was one of several being massaged around
> plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems
> to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present
> has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the
> project.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Annunciator Panel - The Display |
I may be getting ahead of the design process a little but I have found that
one of the more challenging parts of the annunciator panel is how to create
an attractive, yet functional display. Once you get beyond the need for a
few indicator lights and you try to create something that is flexible in the
number of indicators and labeling, it gets complicated. Printing labels on
clear stock for individual square buttons works well when you only need a
few but they quickly start taking up a lot of real estate on the panel.
Nathan's design is certainly very attractive and would meet all of my
requirements, I just don't have access to that type of machining...
" I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts
with
six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo
at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu (bottom of the photos)
I think that a more universal design is needed that would provide a flat
panel, backlit, from four to x annunciators, flexible labeling, flush or
near flush enclosure, minimal excess footprint (beyond/between the labels),
...
Okay, that's enough for a start of the discussion. What other features are
needed on the display side of the project. Hopefully someone has already
come up a simple to manufacture (average builder's shop), low cost design
for the display.
Nathan, can your design be made in the average builder's shop? Is there a
way to adapt it to a simpler construction? Bob, no doubt you have some
thoughts on this.
Eventually this will have to match up to the group that is designing the
electronics side of the panel.
Message 6
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| Subject: | DYMO RhinoPRO3000 label writer |
Hi Jae,
The labels look good, but how difficult is it to wrap these labels around
small (22 awg) wires??
Thanks,
Don Owens
Here is a P-touch labeller on sale for $68.43 at buy.com with free shipping.
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=10372536&loc=101&sp=1&adid=17662
I don't have one, but just noticed it and remembered the discussion on this
list. It piqued my curiosity. I wanted to know what these labels actually
looked
like, since I have never seen one.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002AZ2RY/pricegrabbercpc11-20/ref=n
osim
The link on amazon.com has a better picture. It actually shows a few sample
wires with wire labels attached. It sure does look nice for labelling wires.
One comment on here, though, mentions that he thought quite a bit of the
labels
were wasted.
I am probably years away from needing one.
Jae
--
5:10 PM
Message 7
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| Subject: | Off topic - Battery Corrosion |
I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it
were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the
inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out
and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't
figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the
flashlight barrel.
Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the
corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light?
Charlie Brame
RV-6A N11CB
San Antonio
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion |
Baking Soda!
Charles Brame wrote:
>
> <chasb@satx.rr.com>
>
> I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it
> were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the
> inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out
> and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't
> figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the
> flashlight barrel.
>
> Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the
> corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
>
> San Antonio
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | B&C Alternator Cross-Reference |
I have a B&C Special L-60, 60 amp alternator (S/N 0209131) that I think
has gone bad, but can't tell. Pep Boys and Advance Aircraft Parts all
have automated alternator testers that require a code to be entered for
the test. Any one know of the cross-referenced code to Ndenso that can
be used for the testing?
Absent that, is there a reasonable ND product that's a facimile or
should I just wait for Monday and call B&C to order one up?
Chuck Jensen
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion |
Baking soda will definitely neutralize any remaining acid, but the
corrosion will probably have to be removed by hand.
Dick Tasker
do not archive
kensmith@springnet1.com wrote:
> *Baking Soda!*
>
> Charles Brame wrote:
>
>>
>> <chasb@satx.rr.com>
>>
>> I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it
>> were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the
>> inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out
>> and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I
>> can't figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside
>> of the flashlight barrel.
>>
>> Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the
>> corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light?
>>
>> Charlie Brame
>> RV-6A N11CB
>>
>> San Antonio
>
--
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
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Message 11
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| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 12/15/06 |
could you please unsubscribe me i dont know how, by the way i appreciate
your willingness to share knowledge.
>From: AeroElectric-List Digest Server <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>To: AeroElectric-List Digest List <aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 12/15/06
>Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:55:27 -0800
>
>*
>
> =================================================
> Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive
> =================================================
>
>Today's complete AeroElectric-List Digest can also be found in either of
>the
>two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted
>in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes
>and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version
>of the AeroElectric-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text
>editor
>such as Notepad or with a web browser.
>
>HTML Version:
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 06-12-15&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>Text Version:
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 06-12-15&Archive=AeroElectric
>
>
> ===============================================
> EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive
> ===============================================
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> AeroElectric-List Digest Archive
> ---
> Total Messages Posted Fri 12/15/06: 3
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Today's Message Index:
>----------------------
>
> 1. 08:14 AM - Re: Heat shrink labelling (Joe & Jan Connell)
> 2. 07:39 PM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Alan K. Adamson)
> 3. 08:37 PM - Re: Annunciator Panel Update? (Doug Windhorn)
>
>
>________________________________ Message 1
>_____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:14:20 AM PST US
>From: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell@rconnect.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Heat shrink labelling
>
>
>I used Microsoft Word to print all my labels using
>a 6 pitch font. Rather than a numbering scheme,
>I used full text describing the wire. Examples below:
>
>(3) DYNON D10A GROUND
>(1) DYNON D10A TO ESSENTIAL BUSS 12V +
>(2) DYNON D10A KEEP ALIVE POWER
>
>With this format I know the pin number, the purpose, and the destination.
>I
>cut the label, lay it on the wire, slide a piece
>of heat shrink over the two, and heat briefly. For hard-to-
>read locations I use two labels (one reversed.) It's a bit
>time consuming but works well...
>
>Joe Connell
>RV-9A N95JJ
>
>
>________________________________ Message 2
>_____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 07:39:30 PM PST US
>From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
>
>Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really
>trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want
>the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.
>
>I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible.
>
>I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major features
>and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also included a
>"future additions" section to keep those in perspective.
>
>*If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail down
>a
>final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there we
>could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some
>prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work.
>
>Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns
>that
>we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum.
>Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that can
>be done easily.
>
>At this point, we should work to a prototype.
>
>Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there are
>questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in both
>metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure grounding
>is available and adequate.
>
>Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves.
>
>Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about
>priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software.
>
>Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving
>led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!)
>
>This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if we
>are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this.
>
>So, what do ya think?
>
>Hardware
>a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
>b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
>c) microprocessor control
>d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded)
>e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine
>monitor display, EFIS display, etc)
>f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload, etc)
>g) 8 low level audio inputs
>h) 3 low level audio outputs
>i) audio tone generator
>j) 9-32v DC power supply
>
>Hardware/Software
>a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc)
>b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc)
>c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto
>adjust, etc)
>d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be
>linked or combined via configuration)
>e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with
>event priorities)
>
>
>Future additions
>a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated sounds
>b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology
>
>Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are
>arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :)
>
>Alan - wanna be designer at large ;>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>rtitsworth
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
>--> <rtitsworth@mindspring.com>
>
>Alan,
>
>It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e.
>until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto re-arm)
>unless/until another input generated a second warning which would trigger a
>subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as you
>could forget to turn it back on/up.
>
>It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps
>external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations "very"
>bright during the day, but not blinding at night.
>
>If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch the
>LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly.
>
>Some thoughts on the test function/circuit...
>1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power directly
>to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software independent
>but a rather weak "test".
>2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually activated
>"all on" mode).
>3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor (i.e.
>pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the
>processor/coding as well) which is the most complex.
>
>If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically
>performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on
>automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would extinguish
>them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test
>again.
>Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test
>button
>(saving a button).
>
>Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings should
>still be illuminated.
>
>.02
>Rick
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan K.
>Adamson
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
><aadamson@highrf.com>
>
>Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.
>
>I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that could
>take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of
>inputs.
>It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing
>outputs,
>along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be
>configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or
>other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be
>configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded
>voice
>instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power
>incandescent or LED annunciation lights.
>
>Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas, and 8
>gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board. I'd
>look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge large
>to
>stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form.
>
>Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do the
>Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving my
>desire for the above.
>
>Alan
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
>L.
>Nuckolls, III
>Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
>--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>At 05:30 PM 12/13/2006 -0800, you wrote:
>
> ><bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
> >
> >Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being
> >discussed several months ago?
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Bob
>
> That topic was one of several being massaged around
> plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems
> to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present
> has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the
> project.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>________________________________ Message 3
>_____________________________________
>
>
>Time: 08:37:46 PM PST US
>From: "Doug Windhorn" <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
>
>Alan,
>
>Thanks for looking into this a bit further. I have been trying to locate a
>row of enunciators to let me know when some defined parameter is out of
>normal/desired ranges (row of idiot lights if you will, with some
>additional
>features such as audio alert via the headphones. After reading over your
>list, not sure how KISS your proposal is, but will leave that conversation
>to those that might have a better idea of what they are talking about. I
>am
>not sure what all the "features" do, or are supposed to do, or how I would
>use them.
>
>I am wondering, though, if dimming wouldn't be better performed by simple
>light sensitive resistive circuitry (could be paralleled with user
>adjustable) rather than PWM. I am assuming that the enunciator panel is
>for
>the purpose of displaying fault/attention needed events and would not be
>lit
>continuously (not sure what I would want continuously lit on such a panel).
>If true, then it is doubtful that any meaningful power savings could be had
>by going to the complication of PWM.
>
>Just some thoughts. Hope you can produce a well engineered design/product
>(e.g., competitive costs are factored in).
>
>Regards,
>
>Doug Windhorn
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Alan K. Adamson" <aadamson@highrf.com>
>Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 19:36
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
>
>
> > <aadamson@highrf.com>
> >
> > Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really
> > trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't
>want
> > the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.
> >
> > I'm applying the KISS principle if at all possible.
> >
> > I've nailed down a feature list a bit further. This is just major
> > features
> > and is broken out by Hardware, and Hardware/Software. I've also
>included
> > a
> > "future additions" section to keep those in perspective.
> >
> > *If* we were to do a little virtual design here. Maybe we could nail
>down
> > a
> > final V1 feature set, work up a prospective component list. From there
>we
> > could scratch out a schematic and then obviously, we could get some
> > prototypes done and build a couple and see how they work.
> >
> > Single sided, or at the most double sided would be preferred. Concerns
> > that
> > we'll have to watch for is RFI/EMI and how to keep that to a minimum.
> > Hardening this device should not be in the cards just yet, unless that
>can
> > be done easily.
> >
> > At this point, we should work to a prototype.
> >
> > Ok, so here's my feature list. Feel free to comment on it and if there
> > are
> > questions, let me know. One note, this should be designed to work in
>both
> > metal and composite airplanes (that means we'll have to make sure
> > grounding
> > is available and adequate.
> >
> > Since the original round, I did think of a couple of nice to haves.
> >
> > Rick's ideas muting and was a good one, that lead me to thing about
> > priorities and overrides. These can be handled in software.
> >
> > Dimming was another good idea and the inclusion of some PWM for driving
> > led's etc. (we'll really have to watch EMI/RFI from those!)
> >
> > This should be designed with PC tools that the average joe can afford if
> > we
> > are to work in a collaborative environment with and around this.
> >
> > So, what do ya think?
> >
> > Hardware
> > a) 8 control inputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
> > b) 8 control outputs (can be active hi, active lo, or strobed)
> > c) microprocessor control
> > d) flash memory (perhaps processor embedded)
> > e) serial port output (output strings for external usage - e.g. Engine
> > monitor display, EFIS display, etc)
> > f) serial port input (command processor for configuration, s/w upload,
> > etc)
> > g) 8 low level audio inputs
> > h) 3 low level audio outputs
> > i) audio tone generator
> > j) 9-32v DC power supply
> >
> > Hardware/Software
> > a) test circuitry (lights, processor, logic, etc)
> > b) smart mute circuitry (mute until remedy, then re-arm, etc)
> > c) smart dimming circuitry (PWM for LEDs, ambient light sensor, for auto
> > adjust, etc)
> > d) event priorities for both control outputs and audio outputs (can be
> > linked or combined via configuration)
> > e) queued events with queue clearing logic (would need to integrate with
> > event priorities)
> >
> >
> > Future additions
> > a) recorded or recordable voice messages in place of tone generated
>sounds
> > b) ethernet or some other form of faster interface technology
> >
> > Obviously, the number of inputs and outputs (gazintas and gazoutas) are
> > arbitrary, but 8 is a nice micro number :)
> >
> > Alan - wanna be designer at large ;>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > rtitsworth
> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:24 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
> >
> > --> <rtitsworth@mindspring.com>
> >
> > Alan,
> >
> > It would also be nice if the audio output could be manually muted (i.e.
> > until the input conditions was fixed at which point it would auto
>re-arm)
> > unless/until another input generated a second warning which would
>trigger
> > a
> > subsequent audio signal. This is better than shutting off the audio as
> > you
> > could forget to turn it back on/up.
> >
> > It would also be nice to have the visual intensity dimmable (perhaps
> > external to the board) as it would be nice to have the annunciations
> > "very"
> > bright during the day, but not blinding at night.
> >
> > If it were LED based, it would be nice to be able to configure/switch
>the
> > LED colors (red, yellow, green, etc) during assembly.
> >
> > Some thoughts on the test function/circuit...
> > 1) It could be designed to only test the lights by suppling power
>directly
> > to the lights (bypassing the processor) - simple and software
>independent
> > but a rather weak "test".
> > 2) It could be designed into the processor/code (ie. a manually
>activated
> > "all on" mode).
> > 3) It could be designed to be a circuit "in-front" of the processor
>(i.e.
> > pulling all selected inputs high or low - thereby testing the
> > processor/coding as well) which is the most complex.
> >
> > If option #2 (above) it might be nice if the "test" were automatically
> > performed at startup such that all the lights would initially come on
> > automatically and then hitting the test (or mute) button would
>extinguish
> > them. Thereafter, you would hold the momentary "test" button to test
> > again.
> > Perhaps "holding" the mute button (>1 sec) would function as the test
> > button
> > (saving a button).
> >
> > Of course, following a "test" event, any prior illuminated warnings
>should
> > still be illuminated.
> >
> > .02
> > Rick
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alan
>K.
> > Adamson
> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:27 PM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
> >
> > <aadamson@highrf.com>
> >
> > Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring as at least a paper designer.
> >
> > I've been toying with a simple microprocessor based application that
>could
> > take either active hi, or active low, and maybe alternating types of
> > inputs.
> > It could then generate either active hi, or active low, or flashing
> > outputs,
> > along with an associated audio notification event. This would all be
> > configurable from a simple serial port based device and some windows or
> > other software. It would obviously support a "test" mode and would be
> > configurable for audio volume. Second generation would allow recorded
> > voice
> > instead of simple tones. Most likely, I'd center it around low power
> > incandescent or LED annunciation lights.
> >
> > Because IO on micros *isnt* unlimited, perhaps looking at 8 gazintas,
>and
> > 8
> > gazoutas as a start. Power would be 9-32v and regulated on the board.
> > I'd
> > look for something the size of a pack of gum or maybe just a smidge
>large
> > to
> > stay in thru hole parts and allow it to be available in Kit form.
> >
> > Would there be much interest in the above? I'm most likely going to do
> > the
> > Honeywell type lights, which are LED based and has been what is driving
>my
> > desire for the above.
> >
> > Alan
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Robert
> > L.
> > Nuckolls, III
> > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:49 AM
> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel Update?
> >
> > --> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
> >
> > At 05:30 PM 12/13/2006 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >><bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
> >>
> >>Anybody got an update on the potential annunciator panel that was being
> >>discussed several months ago?
> >>
> >>Thanks
> >>
> >>Bob
> >
> > That topic was one of several being massaged around
> > plates of tacos at the el Mexico cafe but it seems
> > to have died out. None of the pepper-heads present
> > has demonstrated an interest in stepping up to the
> > project.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> > < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> > < with experiment. >
> > < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Off topic - Battery Corrosion |
Charles Brame wrote:
> <chasb@satx.rr.com>
>
> I recently fished out an old MagLite Flashlight. The D-cells in it
> were dead, corroded and had spilled acid throughout most of the
> inside of the flashlight. I managed to get the swollen batteries out
> and cleaned up the threads in the base of the flashlight. But I can't
> figure out an easy way to get the corrosion out of the inside of the
> flashlight barrel.
>
> Is there a acid counteracting fluid that will neutralize/remove the
> corrosion? Any suggestions other than pitching the light?
>
> Charlie Brame
> RV-6A N11CB
>
> San Antonio
If you kept the batteries & they are from a major maker, send them & the
flashlight to the battery company & get a free replacement.
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: B&C Alternator Cross-Reference |
At 04:44 PM 12/16/2006 -0500, you wrote:
>
>I have a B&C Special L-60, 60 amp alternator (S/N 0209131) that I think
>has gone bad, but can't tell. Pep Boys and Advance Aircraft Parts all
>have automated alternator testers that require a code to be entered for
>the test. Any one know of the cross-referenced code to Ndenso that can
>be used for the testing?
>
>Absent that, is there a reasonable ND product that's a facimile or
>should I just wait for Monday and call B&C to order one up?
It's not a stock ND part and won't "test" if the technician
assumes otherwise. It's an externally fielded alternator and
would have to be tested like a 1970's era alternator.
A "real" alternator shop should be able to do this. But it was
easy to test it on the airplane before it was removed. See Note
8 on page Z-8 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Annunciator Panel Update? |
In a message dated 12/15/2006 9:41:58 PM Central Standard Time,
aadamson@highrf.com writes:
Ok, I've been doing a bit more thinking about this widget.... I'm really
trying to avoid designing the kitchen sink into it, and also I don't want
the complexity of multiple modules that all have to be interfaced.
>>>>
Hi Alan- not sure how useful this might be, but here's what I did on my RV-
works pretty good, but not very fancy- might give you a useful idea or two...
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5126
There are 5 additional entries including the wiring diagram (available in
ACAD) seen by clicking >>Next entry>> at top of pages. Fotos get bigger by
clicking on them.
Thanks again to Expercraft for the great website resource!
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips
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