---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/25/06: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:32 AM - Re: Oops! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 01:15 PM - Re: Oops! (Terry Watson) 3. 01:59 PM - Re: Oops! (Chuck Jensen) 4. 03:24 PM - Re: Oops! (Terry Watson) 5. 08:02 PM - Re: Some experiments fail (jerb) 6. 09:06 PM - Re: S704 Relay Wire Sizing (J&C Piavis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! At 04:55 PM 12/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Voice Recorder... > >Landing Checklist Complete? Check. Ohhhhh, myyyyy. > > >They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity >which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and >locked. I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even >fax them a wiring diagram! Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings." In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses, third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt learned opinions. If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings. But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when you've already had the @!#$@# scared out of you by a series of events that many would not have survived . . . and that itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe. We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many of life's most valuable lessons die with the students. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:53 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! I get to fly with a friend in his Cessna 182 on amphibious floats quite often. He keeps it in a hangar at an airport, so most of the time we takeoff and land on a runway. One of the serious concerns with flying an amphibious airplane is landing gear-down on the water, or less serious, gear up on a runway. His airplane has a voice gear warning system that comes on when you reduce airspeed to a certain point where the warning will say "Gear is DOWN for a runway landing" or "Gear is UP for a water landing". My friend has developed the habit of punching off the warning the minute it starts. We came VERY close to landing gear-up on a runway a week or so ago. He was concentrating on the landing and automatically punched off the warning the instant it started, out of habit and without thinking about what it was telling him. Fortunately he had also developed the habit of looking for four green lights by the gear handle just before touch-down and caught it in time. Me, I was concentrating on his landing and might have missed it right up until the sound of aluminum scraping on asphalt. It also is possible to READ a checklist instead of USING a checklist. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! At 04:55 PM 12/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Voice Recorder... > >Landing Checklist Complete? Check. Ohhhhh, myyyyy. > > >They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity >which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and >locked. I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even >fax them a wiring diagram! Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings." In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses, third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt learned opinions. If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings. But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when you've already had the @!#$@# scared out of you by a series of events that many would not have survived . . . and that itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe. We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many of life's most valuable lessons die with the students. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:59:21 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! From: "Chuck Jensen" Terry, Bob N.'s earlier reply that there may well have been a mechanical or electrical problem that prevented gear extension on the B1-B. One would think by the time the pilot and crew moves up the ranks to be authorized to fly a quarter-billion dollar bomber, that they'd have learned to use, not just read the checklist. Then again, despite the training, experience and expertise, we are still dealing with humans here, so who knows? Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 4:13 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! --> I get to fly with a friend in his Cessna 182 on amphibious floats quite often. He keeps it in a hangar at an airport, so most of the time we takeoff and land on a runway. One of the serious concerns with flying an amphibious airplane is landing gear-down on the water, or less serious, gear up on a runway. His airplane has a voice gear warning system that comes on when you reduce airspeed to a certain point where the warning will say "Gear is DOWN for a runway landing" or "Gear is UP for a water landing". My friend has developed the habit of punching off the warning the minute it starts. We came VERY close to landing gear-up on a runway a week or so ago. He was concentrating on the landing and automatically punched off the warning the instant it started, out of habit and without thinking about what it was telling him. Fortunately he had also developed the habit of looking for four green lights by the gear handle just before touch-down and caught it in time. Me, I was concentrating on his landing and might have missed it right up until the sound of aluminum scraping on asphalt. It also is possible to READ a checklist instead of USING a checklist. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! At 04:55 PM 12/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Voice Recorder... > >Landing Checklist Complete? Check. Ohhhhh, myyyyy. > > >They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity >which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and >locked. I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even >fax them a wiring diagram! Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings." In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses, third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt learned opinions. If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings. But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when you've already had the @!#$@# scared out of you by a series of events that many would not have survived . . . and that itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe. We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many of life's most valuable lessons die with the students. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:30 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! You are right, of course, Chuck. I didn't intend to imply that my experience had anything to do with the B1-B incident, except that sometimes the most obvious warnings and alarms can get relegated to background noise when we develop bad habits or become distracted. My guess is that almost every gear-up landing has been made with one or more alarms sounding within sight or hearing of the pilot but outside of his attention, thus the "sterile cockpit" environment that many insist on during critical phases of flight. I think there is a tendency among some for a rote but almost unconscious use of checklists on occasion. Wasn't this landing at the end of a particularly long ferry flight? I read somewhere recently that research on sleepy drivers and drivers using cellphones suggest that both more dangerous than drunk drivers. We can assume that these B1-B pilots were exceptionally well trained professionals, but for some reason the gear was up when they landed. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 1:57 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! Terry, Bob N.'s earlier reply that there may well have been a mechanical or electrical problem that prevented gear extension on the B1-B. One would think by the time the pilot and crew moves up the ranks to be authorized to fly a quarter-billion dollar bomber, that they'd have learned to use, not just read the checklist. Then again, despite the training, experience and expertise, we are still dealing with humans here, so who knows? Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Terry Watson Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 4:13 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! --> I get to fly with a friend in his Cessna 182 on amphibious floats quite often. He keeps it in a hangar at an airport, so most of the time we takeoff and land on a runway. One of the serious concerns with flying an amphibious airplane is landing gear-down on the water, or less serious, gear up on a runway. His airplane has a voice gear warning system that comes on when you reduce airspeed to a certain point where the warning will say "Gear is DOWN for a runway landing" or "Gear is UP for a water landing". My friend has developed the habit of punching off the warning the minute it starts. We came VERY close to landing gear-up on a runway a week or so ago. He was concentrating on the landing and automatically punched off the warning the instant it started, out of habit and without thinking about what it was telling him. Fortunately he had also developed the habit of looking for four green lights by the gear handle just before touch-down and caught it in time. Me, I was concentrating on his landing and might have missed it right up until the sound of aluminum scraping on asphalt. It also is possible to READ a checklist instead of USING a checklist. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Oops! At 04:55 PM 12/24/2006 -0500, you wrote: > >Voice Recorder... > >Landing Checklist Complete? Check. Ohhhhh, myyyyy. > > >They obviously need one of those squat switches I have on my Velocity >which warns a person when you get slow, and the gear isn't down and >locked. I think I'll put that in their suggestion box....I could even >fax them a wiring diagram! Hmmmm . . . it's easy for us to arm-chair an analysis of these guys plight as they turned final. As one wise sage once noted, "It't ain't over until the fat lady sings." In this case, it wasn't over until everyone is setting around the wreckage in their arm-chairs offering second-guesses, third-guesses and wild-ass-guesses to support their no doubt learned opinions. If these guys had an fire in flight, it's problematic as to how many and which systems were functional. I'd be surprised if an airplane like that wasn't fitted with numerous systems intended to reduce probability of gear up landings. But just as my good friend discovered over the New Mexico mountains a few years back . . . all the equipment, planning and training in the world cannot account for our frailties as humans when you've already had the @!#$@# scared out of you by a series of events that many would not have survived . . . and that itch at your back is the tip of the Grim Reaper's scythe. We do what we can to reduce life's risks but they'll never be zero. At least these guys walked away from it and will be able to share what they've learned with others. Too many of life's most valuable lessons die with the students. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:44 PM PST US From: jerb Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Some experiments fail By far I am not an antenna expert but what I've seen from the pictures there are several major issues. The length of the antenna element appears to be far shorter than it should be for a 118-136 MHz spectrum. The next thing I noticed is you go from coax to long simple single connector wires to connect to the element and the ground plane. You don't have much of a ground plane that I can see. Last, looks like you have the antenna element and the pitot in very close proximity to each other, if not at the proper spacing that has to impact your SWR, added together even more so. I use nothing more than a simple SS whip from Radio Shack bent into L shape and sized to produce a good SWR across normal frequency spectrum used in our area. I get out well and receive well. Bob didn't comment on these items that I noticed so either he's biting his fingers or what I noticed isn't a factor. jerb At 05:28 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote: > > >Some ideas look good, until you try to implement them. Like using >the pitot tube for an antennae. It's worth a shot, right? There's >even some documentation of the technique at >http://contrails.free.fr/instruments_ant_sonex.php > >Pictures of my attempt are at >http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae1.jpg >and >http://ernest.isa-geek.org/Delta/Pictures/PitotAntennae2.jpg > >I was able to borrow a "MFJ HF/VHF SWR Analyzer, Model MFJ-259B", do >a sweep from 110 to 140 MHz. A few readings are: > >MHz SWR R X >110 15.4 20 81 >115 20.2 2 21 >120 14.9 3 1 >125 10.8 14 47 >130 8.6 403 0 (lowest SWR) >135 14.4 9 72 >140 18.6 3 25 > > >I didn't think I could get much below an SWR of 2.5 or so, and was >willing to accept the resulting poor performance; but, 8.6 is >really high. But then I put the rubber ducky antennae from my >handheld scanner on the instrument. Everything in the aviation band >was ">25", ie out of the instruments range. It dropped into range >at 130MHz and to 1.6 at 149.5. > >Considering that the handheld scanner seems to work, how viable >would an SWR of 10 to 20 work over here on the crowded eastern >seaboard for mostly day VFR operations? > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:30 PM PST US From: "J&C Piavis" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: S704 Relay Wire Sizing Thanks Ken, That's what I had figured but can't find any concrete info in the archives. I was hoping to get a reading from Bob on this one. I've noticed a lot of questions on the S704 in the archives but nothing indicating wire sizing as used with the SD-8. Jim Hi Jim Yes I agree with you. Since the coil circuit has a 5 amp CB in it I think you could go all the way down to 22awg if you wanted. I also think that 12awg is appropriate for the 20 amp alternator but overkill for an 8 amp unit. Ken PIAVIS wrote: > In sizing wires per the Z-13 diagram on the S704 relay for the SD-8, > most of the wires supporting the SD-8 are 12AWG. For the jumper from > the + side of the contactor on the relay, to the COM tab, can I use > something as low as an 18 or 20 AWG wire for this, Im not sure of the > current flow through this. Based on other posts on the subject, > theres only about .1A on the line from the contactor ground tab > through to the breaker and switch, so I should be able to go to a much > smaller wire here. > > Thanks, > > Jim > > -7 > > Redmond, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.