---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/10/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:44 AM - Mode S and TIS (Eric Parlow) 2. 06:40 AM - Re: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 (dfischer@iserv.net) 3. 06:41 AM - Re: Mode S and TIS (Tim Olson) 4. 07:45 AM - Re: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 (Chuck Jensen) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 (Tim Olson) 6. 09:53 AM - Fluctuation alternator output fix (using cheap external regulator) (Vern Little) 7. 09:59 AM - Re: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 (dfischer@iserv.net) 8. 10:38 AM - Re: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 (Chuck Jensen) 9. 11:09 AM - 2 comm antennas on one airplane (Duane Wilson) 10. 11:50 AM - Re: ABEA and TSO's...and fuel level sensors (Larry L. Tompkins, P.E.) 11. 07:32 PM - Re: Mode S and TIS (Mike) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:22 AM PST US From: "Eric Parlow" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mode S and TIS Does Mode S with TIS displayed on the GNS 430W have enough practical value to justify the $2000 cost to upgrade to the GTX 330 from the GTX 327? Is anyone using it now? ERic-- RV-10 40014 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 From: dfischer@iserv.net And as a side question, if a person hasn't purchased either yet, what are the advantages/disadvantages of a 430 WAAS vs. a GNS-480? I lean towards the 480, but it would seem to me (I'm not that familiar with either) that they both would do essentially the same things. Doug Fischer Jenison, MI RV-9A Wings do not archive > > > Has anyone upgraded their GNS-430 to a GNS-430W (WAAS)? > > And are there any additional hardware/software changes required? > > ERic > RV-10 > Avionics > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:11 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mode S and TIS I haven't seen it on a 430W before, but even on the small screen on my 480 it's plenty worthwhile, and even better on the larger Chelton screens. I'd say that if you're living out East by you, it's probably one of those nearly must-have things if you're not going to have ADS-B coverage there. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Eric Parlow wrote: > > > Does Mode S with TIS displayed on the GNS 430W have enough practical > value to justify the $2000 cost to upgrade to the GTX 330 from the GTX 327? > > Is anyone using it now? > > ERic-- > RV-10 > 40014 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:45 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 From: "Chuck Jensen" Yes, the 430 and 480 may do the same thing, but they certainly do it differently. Based on use of both, the 430 is not in the same league as the 480...if it is to be used for IFR. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfischer@iserv.net Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:40 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 And as a side question, if a person hasn't purchased either yet, what are the advantages/disadvantages of a 430 WAAS vs. a GNS-480? I lean towards the 480, but it would seem to me (I'm not that familiar with either) that they both would do essentially the same things. Doug Fischer Jenison, MI RV-9A Wings do not archive > > > Has anyone upgraded their GNS-430 to a GNS-430W (WAAS)? > > And are there any additional hardware/software changes required? > > ERic > RV-10 > Avionics > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:54 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 Having just been through this war on the RV-10 list, I had to dig up as much as I could to sort out the differences. http://www.myrv10.com/tips/avionics/430vs480.html The only additional tidbit that I heard the other day that I don't know how true it is, is that the Apollo stuff may have less power but the Garmin stuff requires more power to do equal work. That's only a side comment, but I have no idea of it's factual-ness. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Chuck Jensen wrote: > > Yes, the 430 and 480 may do the same thing, but they certainly do it > differently. Based on use of both, the 430 is not in the same league as > the 480...if it is to be used for IFR. > > Chuck Jensen > Do Not Archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > dfischer@iserv.net > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:40 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 > > > > And as a side question, if a person hasn't purchased either yet, what > are the advantages/disadvantages of a 430 WAAS vs. a GNS-480? I lean > towards the 480, but it would seem to me (I'm not that familiar with > either) that they both would do essentially the same things. > > Doug Fischer > Jenison, MI > RV-9A Wings > do not archive > > >> >> >> Has anyone upgraded their GNS-430 to a GNS-430W (WAAS)? >> >> And are there any additional hardware/software changes required? >> >> ERic >> RV-10 >> Avionics >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:53:12 AM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fluctuation alternator output fix (using cheap external regulator) After a year of fighting overvoltages (bad master switch) and fluctuating alternator output (too much voltage drop in field sense circuit), I finally found a fix. I'm using the Van's supplied Transpo regulator, which senses the bus voltage from the same circuit it provides field current, thus exciting oscillations if there is too much resistance in the circuit. Rather than repeat the details, I point anyone who's interested to this link: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=13682&highlight=FLUCTUATING or the bottom of: http://www3.telus.net/aviation/flying/RV-9A/photos/Electrical/Electrical_photos.html I should have used a better regulator from the beginning, but the $5.00 fix now holds the alternator voltage rock solid. Vern Little RV-9A ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:15 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 From: dfischer@iserv.net WOW! Great info! It had to take quite a bit of work to put all that together. Thanks! Doug Fischer Jenison, MI RV-9A Wings > > Having just been through this war on the RV-10 list, I had to dig up as > much as I could to sort out the differences. > > http://www.myrv10.com/tips/avionics/430vs480.html > > The only additional tidbit that I heard the other day that I don't know > how true it is, is that the Apollo stuff may have less power but the > Garmin stuff requires more power to do equal work. That's only a side > comment, but I have no idea of it's factual-ness. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Chuck Jensen wrote: >> >> >> Yes, the 430 and 480 may do the same thing, but they certainly do it >> differently. Based on use of both, the 430 is not in the same league as >> the 480...if it is to be used for IFR. >> >> Chuck Jensen >> Do Not Archive >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> dfischer@iserv.net >> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:40 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 >> >> >> >> And as a side question, if a person hasn't purchased either yet, what >> are the advantages/disadvantages of a 430 WAAS vs. a GNS-480? I lean >> towards the 480, but it would seem to me (I'm not that familiar with >> either) that they both would do essentially the same things. >> >> Doug Fischer >> Jenison, MI >> RV-9A Wings >> do not archive >> >> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone upgraded their GNS-430 to a GNS-430W (WAAS)? >>> >>> And are there any additional hardware/software changes required? >>> >>> ERic >>> RV-10 >>> Avionics >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:41 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 From: "Chuck Jensen" Doug, It's a good chart, but like statistics, can also be misleading. In short, the Pros and Cons are not weighted. It says that the 480 has 18 buttons but the 430 only has 12, hence the 430 is 50% simpler---not. My original comment regarding the 480 being far and away superior to IFR work stands. Entering airways, intersections and data into a flight plan, be it new or edited, is a snap. Rarely do you have to enter much of any letter or number designators--most are grabbed off the drop down lists or the soft key choices, when then automatically tunes the radio, VOR or enters the choice into the flight plan. I the whole chart, this very important operating characteristic is given a single line say the 'entering airways is easier in the 480'. That's like saying the Atlantic is bigger than Lake Erie...it's true, but sharply understates the difference. Other chart entries that are of little significance where the 430 may be equal or even superior is given the same weight at things that are actually important functionally. So yes, the chart is useful, but only as a starting point, not a final decision tool. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dfischer@iserv.net Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:00 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 WOW! Great info! It had to take quite a bit of work to put all that together. Thanks! Doug Fischer Jenison, MI RV-9A Wings > > Having just been through this war on the RV-10 list, I had to dig up > as much as I could to sort out the differences. > > http://www.myrv10.com/tips/avionics/430vs480.html > > The only additional tidbit that I heard the other day that I don't > know how true it is, is that the Apollo stuff may have less power but > the Garmin stuff requires more power to do equal work. That's only a > side comment, but I have no idea of it's factual-ness. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Chuck Jensen wrote: >> >> >> Yes, the 430 and 480 may do the same thing, but they certainly do it >> differently. Based on use of both, the 430 is not in the same league >> as the 480...if it is to be used for IFR. >> >> Chuck Jensen >> Do Not Archive >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> dfischer@iserv.net >> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:40 AM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin WAAS upgrade for GNS 430 >> >> >> >> And as a side question, if a person hasn't purchased either yet, what >> are the advantages/disadvantages of a 430 WAAS vs. a GNS-480? I lean >> towards the 480, but it would seem to me (I'm not that familiar with >> either) that they both would do essentially the same things. >> >> Doug Fischer >> Jenison, MI >> RV-9A Wings >> do not archive >> >> >>> >>> >>> Has anyone upgraded their GNS-430 to a GNS-430W (WAAS)? >>> >>> And are there any additional hardware/software changes required? >>> >>> ERic >>> RV-10 >>> Avionics >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:09:36 AM PST US From: Duane Wilson Subject: AeroElectric-List: 2 comm antennas on one airplane Can someone please point me to a reference telling me how close together I can put 2 comm antennas on my RV9? I already have one just in front of the carry through bulkhead. I need to add a second one for my new SL30. Thanks, Duane ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:50:52 AM PST US From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ABEA and TSO's...and fuel level sensors The following is a portion of the historical basis for the term "or equivalent." This response is also a suggestion that we each continue to do the "best we know how," as Bob N. advocates when it comes to equipment. Unfortunately, a bureaucrat is someone who truly believes in his "heart of hearts" that it is regulations written by non-pilot lawyers rather than LIFT that keeps planes flying. Therefore, if you have a mishap in an aircraft, said bureaucraft merely needs to determine which regulation you broke and, by his own definition/philosophy, he has the explanation for your crash. So your determination to use experimental category avionics ought to be determined by your own diligent research that the product design and manufacture is reliable and durable. IMHO, you will be in the position of defending yourself after any accident you survive. RANT: Speaking from 35+ years auto/transportation engineering experience, some of the worst efforts by bureaucrats are when they jump on the UNDERdeveloped technology band wagon and legislate that technology into production. Some examples are the original truck ABS systems and 1st generations air bags. The original truck ABS law basically stated that semi-trucks had to have ABS brakes. Because of susceptability to RFI/EMI these early ABS trucks had NO brakes when the driver keyed the mike on his CB radio, especially if equipped witha linear amplifier. The Feds were sued by PACCAR and they learned their lesson. The Feds have learned to drive technology with "patent law" type descriptions so they can't be held liable for legally requiring technology that doesn't work. Here is one example: NHTSA wanted to standardize car bumper heights at 16 - 20" above ground, but the CFRs don't say build your car with a bumper face that is 16 - 20" above ground. The CFRs say that the bumper system is required to pass a pendulum test and the face of the pendulum that strikes the bumper will be from 16 - 20" above ground. Back to Aviation: Rotax was at one time going to give customers the choice of purchasing a certificated or non-certificated engine. By their own acknowledgment all the engines were built in the same facility, on the same production line and from the same parts. My recollection is that the cost of the paperwork trail added 2 - 3 thousand dollars to the price of the certificated engine. I would argue that the certification added no value. Non-certificated avionics is not quite the same apple, because the OBAM avionics manufacturers are not building any certificated units. This is a "caveat emptor" situation. There is a lot of attraction for a GRT or AFS EFIS for 25% of the cost of a certificated Chelton System. The determination each of us potentially bets our lives and the lives of our families on is that these manufacturers have done all the work that adds value, reliability and durability without the accompanying NO value paperwork. I am contemplating one of these two systems for my own plane, but my decision will be deliberate and I will be test flying whatever system I choose for quite a while before I depend on it in the clouds. One area where I have a great deal of concern is the experience level of the engineers at these companies. If a person is ignorant of items that have already been discovered and addressed by TSO type testing, then that person can actually believe that he is doing a terrific job, when he is truly not doing "the best we know how." TSOs offer some protection that known issues have been addressed. Without a TSO it then becomes our OWN responsibility to determine that the purveyor of the avionics is not ignorant of issues and has addressed them in his product design. A second concern I have is that new marketing features seem to be frequently released. I don't know how well thought out and proven some of these features are. My own preference is NOT to be a Beta site for the avionics manufacturer. I am a forensic engineer and use an accident reconstruction software that has had 14 new releases since December 2005! I would argue that every user of this software (Windows XP based) is a beta site. The software is fabulously useful, but when it glitches I am still sitting in my chair firmly supported by the floor. I would not want to be using software like this at 5000' AGL in the soup! Larry ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:00 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Mode S and TIS Eric, I have a fully integrated Chelton EFIS system will almost all of the bells and whistles. The WSI weather (some use XM) overlay is to me the best bang for the buck, followed closely by some form of graphic traffic system. I am using the TIS format, when you are in a busy terminal area you have good traffic depiction. At work I have TCAS and find that TIS works very will by comparison. I have a simple proximity system for the non-terminal areas. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Parlow Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:43 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mode S and TIS Does Mode S with TIS displayed on the GNS 430W have enough practical value to justify the $2000 cost to upgrade to the GTX 330 from the GTX 327? Is anyone using it now? ERic-- RV-10 40014 -- 12/12/2006 -- 12/12/2006 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.