---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/14/07: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:47 AM - Re: Annunciator Panel FYI (Al Etherington) 2. 08:16 AM - Re: Voltage Regulator Wire Sizes: Do I Really Need 12 AWG? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:18 AM - Re: over voltage protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Secure connection to a diode? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:45 AM - Re: over voltage protection (Michael T. Ice) 6. 09:57 AM - Need low cost schematic program (Greg Papendick) 7. 10:52 AM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (LarryMcFarland) 8. 11:14 AM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Ernest Christley) 9. 11:23 AM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 11:38 AM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Vern Little) 11. 11:41 AM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Malcolm Thomson) 12. 11:52 AM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Carl Morgan) 13. 01:42 PM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (John W. Cox) 14. 03:20 PM - Re: Annunciator Panel FYI (raymondj) 15. 05:33 PM - Re:Re: TSO's...and fuel level sensors (Eric Schlanser) 16. 06:35 PM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Ernest Christley) 17. 06:35 PM - Fat Capacitor Question (Matt Jurotich) 18. 06:36 PM - 8AWG Wire to Fast-On Connection (Larry Rosen) 19. 07:17 PM - Re: Stone-simple, GPS course tracking wing leveler (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 07:20 PM - Re: Need low cost schematic program (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 07:51 PM - Wig Wag High Beams () 22. 10:23 PM - Re: Re: Secure connection to a diode? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 10:24 PM - Re: 8AWG Wire to Fast-On Connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:24 AM PST US From: Al Etherington Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel FYI Nathan Ulrich wrote: > > Although it doesn't have nearly the features of Alan's proposed annunciator, > I built a custom annunciator panel for my Bonanza. It has 16 LED outputs, 13 > Stanley bar LEDs and 3 discrete LEDs for marker beacon lights (amber, blue, > white). Except for the marker beacon LEDs, each output can be driven by a > low or high signal. It has a test button, of course. The circuitry is pretty > basic, mostly some surface mount transistors, diodes and resistors. It dims > at night by being connected to the dimmer circuit (switched by the nav light > switch). > > I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with > six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu > > The annunciator photo is near the bottom. I'd be glad to provide more info > if anyone is interested... > > Nathan > > > Hi Nathan: I saved your e-mail for a time when I wasn't so busy, thus the delay in responding. I would like a little more info on your annunciator. As I am somewhat electronically challenged, your circuitry would be of particular interest. Beautiful machining, by the way. Thanks, Al Etherington ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:23 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage Regulator Wire Sizes: Do I Really Need 12 AWG? At 07:44 PM 1/13/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Folks, > >Per page 4-7 of the "Connection", I'm planning on running the Field and >two ground wires from the B&C LR3C-14 to the battery in the back of my >GlaStar. The round trip distance between the battery location and the >regulator is (generously) about 40' (it may turn out closer to 35' >depending on wire routing and final battery location). > >Using the 5 Amp rating of the field breaker, my figuring using Figure 11-2 >in AC 43.13 says to use a 12 AWG wire. That seems awfully "fat", >especially since the B&C instructions specify 18 AWG. Fig. 11-2 indicates >that 18 AWG will carry 5 Amps continuously for about 16', which sounds >about right for the distance from the alternator to the regulator and from >the regulator to a power buss on the panel. > >Do I really need 12 AWG here? I don't recall seeing any information on >the normal load on the Field wire. Since the B&C instructions call for >redundant ground wires, can I use two 15 AWG for the ground wires and a 12 >AWG for the Field wire? > >(My calculations don't take into account that these voltage regulator >wires would be bundled with the (2) 2 AWG "mains"; the two wires for the >battery contactor and an "always hot" wire.) The schematics on 4-7 are a discussion of the effects of voltage drop in wiring and the advantages of choosing voltage sense points with understanding. As a practical matter I recommend the following: Mount the regulator up front. Either side of the firewall is fine. Ground the regulator's "ground" terminal and case to the firewall ground block. Run 20AWG wire for the field supply and field output leads by the shortest practical route to alternator and DC PWR Master switch. Since the LR series regulators now feature remote sensing by a conductor separate from the field supply wire, concern for voltage drops described in Chapter 4 have been eliminated by design. See Z-figures. > >Unrelated "bonus" question. I there any reason I can't bundle the Field >wire from the alternator back through the firewall with the thermocouple >wires for the CHT and EGT? This bundle will also have another wire from >the alternator to a test point on the panel so I can measure the Field >voltage from the cockpit per Bob's suggestion.) There are NO constraints for bundling wires of various systems together - assuming each of the systems in question have been designed to live in the real world. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: over voltage protection At 04:19 PM 1/13/2007 -0900, you wrote: >Hello, > >I don't want to start a IR/non IR alternator war here but I have a question. > >I am going to be using the ND 55 (or at least it is the Van's 60 Amp model >and it is already on order) and I don't want to use the over voltage >protection. I don't think it is necessary and I can't figure out where to >install another one of the huge contactors. > > I am following the Z-11 system. I was wondering if I were to just by > pass the part on the drawing for the over voltage and wire the Number 4 > contact directly to the F terminal on the Alternator and the wire from > the Number 2 terminal to the Battery contactor would that work. > >Would installing the crow bar O.V. protect module after the 5 amp pull >able fuse offer any advantages if I don't install the battery disconnect >contactor? At the present time, there is no one-size-fits-all ov protection scheme available for internally regulated alternators. I have taken possession of a 10 hp alternator drive stand that needs some serious attention before I can use it for any new investigations or development work. However, know that a technique has been devised and will be turned into real product sometime this year. Further, the device is easily added to any existing alternator installation. I'll suggest you proceed with your plans while bypassing the ov protection and control issues. We'll fill this box in later. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:30 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Secure connection to a diode? At 04:19 PM 1/13/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Bob, > > >I don t have a schematic or wiring diagram. The application is a gear >door sequencing system with a control box, gear switch, 10 micro switches, >4 electrically controlled hydraulic valves and three diodes (1N5400, I >think). All I got was a written description of how to wire all >components. All wires are 20 AWG except power and ground. > > >Diode A: Gear micro switch & control box pin 12---(diode)---gear switch & >hyd valve A > >Diode B: Gear micro switch & control box pin 15---(diode)---gear switch & >hyd valve B > >Diode C: Control box pin 2---(diode)---hyd valve D > > >So how do I connect the diode leads in line to 20 AWG wire securely? I'll publish a comic book on this later today. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:20 AM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: over voltage protection Bob, Thank you for a practical answer. I will keep looking for this new technique and product that you speak of. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: over voltage protection > > > At 04:19 PM 1/13/2007 -0900, you wrote: > >>Hello, >> >>I don't want to start a IR/non IR alternator war here but I have a >>question. >> >>I am going to be using the ND 55 (or at least it is the Van's 60 Amp model >>and it is already on order) and I don't want to use the over voltage >>protection. I don't think it is necessary and I can't figure out where to >>install another one of the huge contactors. >> >> I am following the Z-11 system. I was wondering if I were to just by >> pass the part on the drawing for the over voltage and wire the Number 4 >> contact directly to the F terminal on the Alternator and the wire from >> the Number 2 terminal to the Battery contactor would that work. >> >>Would installing the crow bar O.V. protect module after the 5 amp pull >>able fuse offer any advantages if I don't install the battery disconnect >>contactor? > > At the present time, there is no one-size-fits-all ov protection > scheme available for internally regulated alternators. I have > taken possession of a 10 hp alternator drive stand that needs > some serious attention before I can use it for any new investigations > or development work. However, know that a technique has been > devised and will be turned into real product sometime this year. > Further, the device is easily added to any existing alternator > installation. I'll suggest you proceed with your plans while > bypassing the ov protection and control issues. We'll fill this > box in later. > > Bob . . . > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > > < the authority which determines whether there can be > > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > > < with experiment. > > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:29 AM PST US From: "Greg Papendick" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was curious as to what recommendations this list might have. I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. Thank you in advance for your recommendations. Greg ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:59 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program Hi Greg, I'd recommend you use TurboCAD Vers 11 or later. I've worked with ProE and Autocad, but find TurboCAD much more productive, capable of quick 3D design and all the tools for rendering and providing exacting product design without the strain involved with the other two. It's not priced nearly as high as the others as well. Sample drawing links, http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring-(SH-2).gif http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-and-stear-link.gif Good luck, Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com Greg Papendick wrote: > > I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to > laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in > purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was > curious as to what recommendations this list might have. > > I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software > program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for > small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at > that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can > use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. > > Thank you in advance for your recommendations. > > Greg > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:31 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program Greg Papendick wrote: > > I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to > laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in > purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was > curious as to what recommendations this list might have. > > I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software > program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for > small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at > that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can > use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. > > Thank you in advance for your recommendations. > > Greg > > You simply must give gEDA a try. It sells for the whopping sum of "absolutely nothing" (it's open source.) It took me only a few moments to start laying out circuits, and a day or so to figure out the tools set that will take you from your schematic layout to a PCB silkscreen print. If you get everything set up correctly in the schematic, it will arrange all the components and traces automatically. It did a much better arrangement job in less than a minute than I did over several hours. Get copper clad boards from RadioShack. Create a resist with a laser printer. Use muriatic acid mixed with hydrogen peroxide to etch. My single largest cost to produce one of Jim Weir's capacitive fuel level sensor was, by far, the shipping of the components from Newark. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:23:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program At 12:55 PM 1/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to >laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in >purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was >curious as to what recommendations this list might have. TurboCAD v7 and higher will open, edit, save, and print the AutoCAD .dwg files posted at: http://aeroelectric.com/PPS You can buy TurboCAD really cheap on Ebay. Here's an exemplar listing: http://tinyurl.com/unm8y >I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software >program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for >small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at >that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can >use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. We use ExpressPCB for all but the largest production tasks. Their software is free. The service for small quantities is quick and reasonable. Furhter, as we begin to publish more DIY projects using ECB layouts, we'll also publish the artwork files in ExpressPCB format. Take a peek at: http://www.expresspcb.com/ Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:09 AM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program Greg: Here is exactly what you need... it's free and very easy to use: http://www.expresspcb.com/ Here is a schematic for my RV-9A, and a library of custom components: http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html Have fun. Vern Little Greg Papendick wrote: > > I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to > laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in > purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was > curious as to what recommendations this list might have. > > I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software > program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for > small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at > that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can > use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. > > Thank you in advance for your recommendations. > > Greg > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:56 AM PST US From: "Malcolm Thomson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program Try ExpressPCB - good for circuit layout and PCB layout and production. It's free too. I've used it with great success. Software is reliable and does a nice job. www.expresspcb.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Papendick Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program --> I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was curious as to what recommendations this list might have. I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. Thank you in advance for your recommendations. Greg -- 2:04 PM -- 2:04 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:35 AM PST US From: "Carl Morgan" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program Hi, For CAD work I've been using progeCAD LT 2006 (http://www.progecad.com/) - which is a free (/ donationware) program and works well. For PCB design work - I've ended up using Eagle (http://www.cadsoft.de/) - it is a little clumbsy (UNIX X windows style interface) but once you get it going works really well and well featured. The freeware version is limited to 6" x 4" physical designs (but multi-layer). Regards, Carl -- ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Papendick [mailto:gandjpappy@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, 15 January 2007 6:55 a.m. > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program > > > > > I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to > laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in > purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was > curious as to what recommendations this list might have. > > I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software > program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for > small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at > that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can > use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. > > Thank you in advance for your recommendations. > > Greg > > > -- > 13/01/2007 5:40 p.m. > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:23 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program From: "John W. Cox" TurboCAD. And it will convert coveted DWG. Files to be used in your production drawings to boot. John Cox #40600 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Papendick Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to laying out the electrical system for my RV8. I am interested in purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was curious as to what recommendations this list might have. I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for small circuits. It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at that point I had a lab at my disposal. I am looking for something I can use at home and that would produce acceptable boards. Thank you in advance for your recommendations. Greg ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:20:08 PM PST US From: "raymondj" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel FYI Greetings Nathan, I would like to get a copy of the schematic for your panel. I don't think I'm up to working with SMT components but I might try it with larger components. Thanks. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Al Etherington Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:45 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Annunciator Panel FYI Nathan Ulrich wrote: > > Although it doesn't have nearly the features of Alan's proposed annunciator, > I built a custom annunciator panel for my Bonanza. It has 16 LED outputs, 13 > Stanley bar LEDs and 3 discrete LEDs for marker beacon lights (amber, blue, > white). Except for the marker beacon LEDs, each output can be driven by a > low or high signal. It has a test button, of course. The circuitry is pretty > basic, mostly some surface mount transistors, diodes and resistors. It dims > at night by being connected to the dimmer circuit (switched by the nav light > switch). > > I designed and machined an aluminum housing for it, so that it mounts with > six screws from behind the panel above my six pack. You can see a photo at: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/nathantu > > The annunciator photo is near the bottom. I'd be glad to provide more info > if anyone is interested... > > Nathan > > Hi Nathan: I saved your e-mail for a time when I wasn't so busy, thus the delay in responding. I would like a little more info on your annunciator. As I am somewhat electronically challenged, your circuitry would be of particular interest. Beautiful machining, by the way. Thanks, Al Etherington ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:08 PM PST US From: Eric Schlanser Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re:Re: TSO's...and fuel level sensors Hey Bob, Any more information available on the new AP system? Is it for the OBAM market? Time: 12:45:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: TSO's...and fuel level sensors I've been working an AP project where the hard-working guts of the system holds GPS track to 1 degree of accuracy and nothing more - 99% of everything you want an autopilot to do. Less than a handfull of lines of code in a $2 processor. ALL navigation bells and whistles are offered as applications to run out of a hand-held. The nav hardware sends "new course to make good" data to the autopilot . . . and nothing more. If the bells and whistles become troublesome, one can simply shut them off without affecting the autopilot's stone-simple, high-reliability task of keeping the dirty side down and the pointy end aimed at your next waypoint. I can't see any of the big name flight systems folks taking this kind of approach. They'll consistently dump all their tasks into one super-processor with the attendant risks of having some whistle go off-key and cripple the system's ability to do it's most important tasks. Only the OBAM aviation community can offer the close- coupled supplier-consumer relationship necessary to bypass bean-counters, process-and-procedure hacks and certification inspectors so that a product may evolve quickly in ways that benefit both the supplier and the customer. The new paradigm is an information- driven relationship between a capable supplier and an informed, communicative customer. No amount of regulation, certification or ISO9000 hat-dancing can add value to an activity focused on capable and willing suppliers offering the best they know how to do to happy customers. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:04 PM PST US From: "Terry Miles" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wgt complexity and parts count vs running (+) wires Bob, I am looking at your example in the switch chapter on how I could use a 700 2-10 and wire Nav and Strobe lights. As I do this, I am mindful of keeping things simple, but not at the risk of long power runs in the event of a post accident short or loose wire or related risks. I have an overhead switch panel in the Velocity I am building. When possible I have tried to have those switches supply grounds (pin 85) to some 40 amp relays I got on Ebay from a Car Audio outlet that I will mount behind the panel area. The distance from the power fuse block to this o'head switch panel is about 8 feet one way. The load in question is a 1 amp (2 amp fuse) for the nav light LEDs. (Not the strobe. It is fused at the control box.) Here is my question. Is there a good practices recommendation you might have given my choices are an 8 foot run (+) power into my overhead panel over ground wire into the 700 2-10 switch that then requires two separate relays in nose. Follow on question--if 1 amp loads (20awg) are OK, is there an amperage break point where you would opt for remoted relays? Thanks, Terry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wgt complexity and parts count vs running (+) wires At 02:19 PM 1/13/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Bob, >I am looking at your example in the switch chapter on how I could use a 700 >2-10 and wire Nav and Strobe lights. As I do this, I am mindful of keeping >things simple, but not at the risk of long power runs in the event of a post >accident short or loose wire or related risks. Length of wire runs becomes a non-issue if the circuit is either fused very lightly (5A or less) or is downstream of a DC power master relay where it becomes "cold" as a result of preparation for landing be it on or off-field. >I have an overhead switch panel in the Velocity I am building. When >possible I have tried to have those switches supply grounds (pin 85) to some >40 amp relays I got on Ebay from a Car Audio outlet that I will mount behind >the panel area. > >The distance from the power fuse block to this o'head switch panel is about >8 feet one way. The load in question is a 1 amp (2 amp fuse) for the nav >light LEDs. (Not the strobe. It is fused at the control box.) Here is my >question. We run power and control leads for distances as much as 50-60 feet in some of our aircraft. As long as the wire gage is sufficiently sized to offset voltage drop, there are no good reasons to add relays EXCEPT to avoid having a LARGE switch in a row of otherwise small switches or to avoid a LONG run of relatively fat wire (Larger than 16 or 14 AWG). >Is there a good practices recommendation you might have given my choices are >an 8 foot run (+) power into my overhead panel over ground wire into the 700 >2-10 switch that then requires two separate relays in nose. > >Follow on question--if 1 amp loads (20awg) are OK, is there an amperage >break point where you would opt for remoted relays? Do your math. 20 AWG wire is 10 milliohms per foot and drops 10 millivolts per foot per amp. Assume total wire in 2A nav light circuit from bus to lamp and back to ground is say 25 feet. 20AWG will drop 10 x 2 x 25 or 500 millivolts. As a percentage of system voltage, this works out to 500/14000 or 3.5% . . . generally considered quite tolerable. 5% max is the rule of thumb. I'll suggest your lowest cost of ownership and highest reliability will happen when relays are used sparingly and the S700 series switches perform happily at 7A continuous and satisfactorily at 10A. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:32 PM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimp or Solder I recently made up a BNC connector for an antenna lead. I have always soldered the central conductor into the gold pin. My buddy suggested that I crimp the connector rather than solder. I did, and it seems to be okay. Crimping was certainly faster than soldering. What's the approved method? Today I was reading Bob's Aeroelectric Connection Chapter 18 on Audio Systems. It showed a D-sub connector with all its little gold pins. Again, I have always soldered Sub-D pins. Should they be soldered or crimped? I have made up many a Molex type connector and I've always crimped its male/female pins. Would a drop of solder make them more secure? Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:01:20 PM PST US From: "Terry Miles" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Wgt complexity and parts count vs running (+) wires Thank you, Sir. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:22 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wgt complexity and parts count vs running (+) wires At 02:19 PM 1/13/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Bob, >I am looking at your example in the switch chapter on how I could use a 700 >2-10 and wire Nav and Strobe lights. As I do this, I am mindful of keeping >things simple, but not at the risk of long power runs in the event of a post >accident short or loose wire or related risks. Length of wire runs becomes a non-issue if the circuit is either fused very lightly (5A or less) or is downstream of a DC power master relay where it becomes "cold" as a result of preparation for landing be it on or off-field. >I have an overhead switch panel in the Velocity I am building. When >possible I have tried to have those switches supply grounds (pin 85) to some >40 amp relays I got on Ebay from a Car Audio outlet that I will mount behind >the panel area. > >The distance from the power fuse block to this o'head switch panel is about >8 feet one way. The load in question is a 1 amp (2 amp fuse) for the nav >light LEDs. (Not the strobe. It is fused at the control box.) Here is my >question. We run power and control leads for distances as much as 50-60 feet in some of our aircraft. As long as the wire gage is sufficiently sized to offset voltage drop, there are no good reasons to add relays EXCEPT to avoid having a LARGE switch in a row of otherwise small switches or to avoid a LONG run of relatively fat wire (Larger than 16 or 14 AWG). >Is there a good practices recommendation you might have given my choices are >an 8 foot run (+) power into my overhead panel over ground wire into the 700 >2-10 switch that then requires two separate relays in nose. > >Follow on question--if 1 amp loads (20awg) are OK, is there an amperage >break point where you would opt for remoted relays? Do your math. 20 AWG wire is 10 milliohms per foot and drops 10 millivolts per foot per amp. Assume total wire in 2A nav light circuit from bus to lamp and back to ground is say 25 feet. 20AWG will drop 10 x 2 x 25 or 500 millivolts. As a percentage of system voltage, this works out to 500/14000 or 3.5% . . . generally considered quite tolerable. 5% max is the rule of thumb. I'll suggest your lowest cost of ownership and highest reliability will happen when relays are used sparingly and the S700 series switches perform happily at 7A continuous and satisfactorily at 10A. Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimp or Solder At 03:53 PM 1/13/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >I recently made up a BNC connector for an antenna lead. I have always >soldered the central conductor into the gold pin. My buddy suggested >that I crimp the connector rather than solder. I did, and it seems to >be okay. Crimping was certainly faster than soldering. What's the >approved method? > >Today I was reading Bob's Aeroelectric Connection Chapter 18 on Audio >Systems. It showed a D-sub connector with all its little gold pins. >Again, I have always soldered Sub-D pins. Should they be soldered or >crimped? what ever the manufacture of the connector recommends. You can purchase both solder and crimp style connectors in most technologies. I use mostly crimped pin connectors for ease of installation, convenience and freedom from process-errors. In terms of overall reliability, there is no difference between soldered and crimped joints. >I have made up many a Molex type connector and I've always crimped >its male/female pins. Would a drop of solder make them more secure? There have been TRILLIONS of pins installed per the recommendations of the manufacturer with exceedingly low failure rates. Remember, connector folks sell thousands to aircraft and billions to commercial ventures. Names like Molex, AMP, Amphenol, T&B (just to name a few) have been in this business for decades. The fact that they are still in business must say something about the capabilities of their products to meet customer expectations. Nonetheless, there's a host of folks who don't understand how the products are designed to work and they WORRY a lot about things that are not worthy of the effort. Buy the technology that appeals to you most (or accommodates your tools and skills) and truck on. The whole solder-n-crimp or solder- instead-of-crimp thing is floobydust. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > === message truncated == --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:22 PM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program Vern Little wrote: > > > Greg: Here is exactly what you need... it's free and very easy to use: > > http://www.expresspcb.com/ > > Here is a schematic for my RV-9A, and a library of custom components: > > http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html > > Have fun. > > Vern Little > Vern, just a word of warning. The difference between 'free' and 'open source' is that the program can disappear, leaving a library of custom components worthless. Make sure you make backups of your work in a format that is not proprietary. I spent about a year learning to do 3D CAD with Pro/Desktop while the tech industry was in the recent slump. I was nearly finished with a complete rendition of a virtual Dyke Delta, when the makers of the program decided that they were no longer interested in having people learn to use their software for free. They were kind enough to give out keys that enabled the software for 5yrs, but I quickly lost mine in a harddrive crash. I still have the files, but they are useless without a program to interpret them. I did convert a few of the parts to STEP files, so they are usable in other programs, but most of the work has to be written off as an 'educational' exercise. If I had taken an hour or so to save each of the components in a more universal format I wouldn't get a sick feeling whenever I look at those files. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:22 PM PST US From: Matt Jurotich Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fat Capacitor Question I am thinking of putting a Fat capacitor between the E bus and ground. Idea is if the E bus switch is open and the battery is suppling power through the diode and the voltage sags for a short time (300 milliseconds is what I remember) when first engaging the starter the capacitor would keep the voltage above 10 for the voltage sensitive stuff that may reset. 2 questions: Would this work? It seems to introducing a single point failure for the shorted capacitor case. Are todays electrolytic caps sufficiently robust to mitigate the risk? Thanks Matthew M. Jurotich e-mail mail to: phone : 301-286-5919 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:48 PM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: AeroElectric-List: 8AWG Wire to Fast-On Connection In order to keep the voltage drop down on a long 14 volt 30 amp run I want to use 8 AWG wire. The final device has a male Fast-On terminal. The only terminals I can find for 8 AWG wire are ring terminals, how do I transition to a Fast-On? Larry RV-10 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:50 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Stone-simple, GPS course tracking wing leveler At 05:31 PM 1/14/2007 -0800, you wrote: >>Hey Bob, >> >>Any more information available on the new AP system? Is it for the OBAM >>market? Yes. That's the project that took hold over a plate of tacos back when I did the annunciator features survey. We were talking about a variety of things to explore. The one that generated the most excitement was the stone-simple-super- accurate wing leveler. It's not a front-burner project but yes, if it comes to any state of flyable hardware, it will be available only to the OBAM aviation market. Right now, the alternator drive stand has to be my front burner project for new development. But perhaps later this year. We'll see what the GMC (gray matter consortium) comes up with in the mean time. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need low cost schematic program At 09:35 PM 1/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >Vern Little wrote: >> >>Greg: Here is exactly what you need... it's free and very easy to use: >> >>http://www.expresspcb.com/ >> >>Here is a schematic for my RV-9A, and a library of custom components: >> >>http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html >> >>Have fun. >> >>Vern Little >Vern, just a word of warning. > >The difference between 'free' and 'open source' is that the program can >disappear, leaving a library of custom components worthless. Make sure >you make backups of your work in a format that is not proprietary. > >I spent about a year learning to do 3D CAD with Pro/Desktop while the tech >industry was in the recent slump. I was nearly finished with a complete >rendition of a virtual Dyke Delta, when the makers of the program decided >that they were no longer interested in having people learn to use their >software for free. They were kind enough to give out keys that enabled >the software for 5yrs, but I quickly lost mine in a harddrive crash. I >still have the files, but they are useless without a program to interpret >them. I did convert a few of the parts to STEP files, so they are usable >in other programs, but most of the work has to be written off as an >'educational' exercise. If I had taken an hour or so to save each of the >components in a more universal format I wouldn't get a sick feeling >whenever I look at those files. Most serious CAD programs are ambiformexerous . . . they'll input and output a variety of popular formats. For example, my AutoCAD .dwg files can be opened directly by a variety of competitive programs. Further, I can save in .dxf and IGES formats that will transport the drawings to other applications. It's good to research these capabilties before you infest much $time$ in a CAD based documentation project. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:32 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wig Wag High Beams From: I saw a small Truck from Fire Department racing around tonight just bout twilight, he had a Wig Wag system for his headlights that left low beams on all the time and Wig Waged the High Beams. Pretty neat. If you have high and low beam, perhaps a consideration. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Secure connection to a diode? At 04:19 PM 1/13/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Bob, > > >I don t have a schematic or wiring diagram. The application is a gear >door sequencing system with a control box, gear switch, 10 micro switches, >4 electrically controlled hydraulic valves and three diodes (1N5400, I >think). All I got was a written description of how to wire all >components. All wires are 20 AWG except power and ground. > > >Diode A: Gear micro switch & control box pin 12---(diode)---gear switch & >hyd valve A > >Diode B: Gear micro switch & control box pin 15---(diode)---gear switch & >hyd valve B > >Diode C: Control box pin 2---(diode)---hyd valve D > > >So how do I connect the diode leads in line to 20 AWG wire securely? > > >I was wondering if there was a connector of some sort for that kind of >application or if I should, as Bill Schlatterer suggested, solder them and >then cover with two layers of heat shrink. His look really nice! See http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Homeless/Homeless_Components.htm Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. Krauss > --------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:01 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 8AWG Wire to Fast-On Connection At 09:28 PM 1/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >In order to keep the voltage drop down on a long 14 volt 30 amp run I want >to use 8 AWG wire. The final device has a male Fast-On terminal. >The only terminals I can find for 8 AWG wire are ring terminals, how do I >transition to a Fast-On? Splice a 6" 10AWG stub on the end of the 8AWG wire so that you can crimp a standard yellow (10-12AWG) PIDG on the end. 30A is pushing a Fast-On pretty hard. What's your application? Bob . . . --------------------------------------------------------- < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that > < the authority which determines whether there can be > < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of > < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests > < with experiment. > < --Lawrence M. 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