Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:50 AM - Re: Radio interference when receiving (Geoff Leedham)
2. 03:48 AM - Re: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (William Slaughter)
3. 07:08 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/17/07 (David A. Leonard)
4. 07:08 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/17/07 (David A. Leonard)
5. 08:31 AM - Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:32 AM - Re: Radio interference when receiving (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 08:36 AM - Northern California Seminar for 2007 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:43 AM - Wisconsin Seminar date set. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:53 AM - Some notes on future AeroElectric Connection seminars (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 09:24 AM - starter warning light? (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
11. 09:47 AM - Re: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (Bill Boyd)
12. 10:12 AM - Re: starter warning light? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 10:12 AM - Re: Some notes on future AeroElectric Connection seminars (Matt Prather)
14. 10:41 AM - Re: starter warning light? (Ralph E. Capen)
15. 10:41 AM - Re: Some notes on future AeroElectric Connection seminars (Nancy Ghertner)
16. 11:03 AM - Re: starter warning light? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 11:05 AM - Re: Notes on AeroElectric Connection seminars (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
18. 11:08 AM - Re: AeroElectric Connection seminars (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 11:34 AM - Re: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (springcanyon)
20. 11:36 AM - Re: starter warning light? (Ralph E. Capen)
21. 01:39 PM - how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges (James H Nelson)
22. 02:11 PM - starter warning light? (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
23. 03:34 PM - Re: Radio interference when receiving (Kingsley Hurst)
24. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine. (bob noffs)
25. 08:55 PM - Tooling up (Carl Peters)
26. 09:43 PM - Re: Tooling up (John Coloccia)
27. 10:34 PM - Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine. (DonC)
28. 11:01 PM - Re: Tooling up (Dave N6030X)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Radio interference when receiving |
Hi Bob,
I have tried running one mag at a time- same problem from either.
The ignition wiring is all installed by Jabiru only the mag kill wires have
been installed by myself (screened wires earthing at the engine.
The plug leads are resistive car type but the leads from coils to
distributer caps are not marked so I am not sure about these and have my
suspicions. I will contact Jabiru to find out. Also the plugs are NGK but
not resistive type, perhaps it might be worth me changing these.
The only drawing in the manual I can find is a very basic drawing which
includes wiring for the Jabiru aircraft, and shows the ignition in a basic
form ie.transistor ignition unit feeding to spark plugs.
Geoff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio interference when receiving
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 01:25 PM 1/16/2007 +0000, you wrote:
>
> I have a new Jabiru 2200 (85hp) installed in a Murphy Maverick with an
> Icom IC-A200 panel mount VHFand an external antenna mounted through the
> fuselage skin midway between the cabin and fin using the fuselage for a
> groundplane.
>
> I am picking up ignition interference when receiving which increases with
> engine speed.
> I have tried running the radio from an independent power supply to
> eliminate installation
> wiring and still get the same problem, which seems to indicate that the
> antenna is picking
> up the radiated noise.
>
> The engine has suppressed ht leads to the plugs but I am not sure about
> the leads to
> the coils.I checked the rotor arms for security and they seem fine.
> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to cure the problem?
>
> Hmmmm . . . when problems arise from a "per-the-factory"
> ignition system installation, this can get sticky. I've
> never had occasion to get a problem ignition system
> into the lab to fix a noise problem. Our production piston
> aircraft still use the classic shielded magneto installations
> which have evolved into pretty radio-friendly products
> over the years.
>
> Are you on a list-server for either the Maverick, the
> engine or both? I'd also contact the service rep for
> the engine. You may find that he/she is aware of the
> occasional odd problem that's easily fixed.
>
> Try running from one ignition at a time. The problem
> may be isolated to a single system. If this is true,
> likelihood of it being a simple fix is improved.
>
> How much of the wiring is stuff that's used as-supplied
> and how much do you install? I did a quick look-see on the
> 'net for the installation manual. Don't have time to chase
> it right now. Do you know where it can be acquired? I'd
> like to see the schematic for the ignition system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --
> 15/01/2007 11:04
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges |
At the Van's web site, click on Construction FAQs and scroll down to Gauge
Installation and Diagrams, or direct at
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Gauge_Install.pdf
William Slaughter
RV8QB almost ready to run some wires
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel
gauges
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:23 PM 1/17/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>--> <sportav8r@gmail.com>
>
>I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel
>gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find
>it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the
>senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are
>made.
>
>Confession time: I have these gauges in my plane now, but have lost the
>old wiring diagram I drew at the time (which would have been an
>embarassment if it still existed, like the rat's nest behind my present
>panel). I need the info to design relevant parts of the diagram for
>the new electrical system.
>
>Thanks,
If someone has relevant data to share with Bill . . . send
it to me also. I'll scan it and add to the library of installation
data at aeroelectric.com
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/17/07 |
RE: the noisy ignition Jabiru.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/magnetofilter.php
My Viking / Continental/ Bendix mags was noisy unitil I installed these
capacitors in the P leads. Then it stopped. I really don't know enough
about it to explain the mechanics of this, but it definitely took the noise
out of the audio. I assume the Jabiru mags have a p- lead somewhere, is
there any kind of filter on it?
I'm sure one of the geniuses ( my boss used to call us F*****g geniuses), on
this list can find you a $.97 Cap that will do the job, I'm ashamed to say I
paid $35.00 each for thes for my certified bird.
Are the Ignition wires shielded style? I was told by an avionics guy ( King
factory type years ago) that a small amount of extra resistance in an old
plug wire , or a bad shield will make it noisy as well.
Hope this helps.
Dave Leonard N77FE Bellanca 17-30A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 20 Msgs - 01/17/07 |
RE: the noisy ignition Jabiru.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/magnetofilter.php
My Viking / Continental/ Bendix mags was noisy unitil I installed these
capacitors in the P leads. Then it stopped. I really don't know enough
about it to explain the mechanics of this, but it definitely took the noise
out of the audio. I assume the Jabiru mags have a p- lead somewhere, is
there any kind of filter on it?
Are the Ignition wires shielded style? I was told by an avionics guy ( King
factory type years ago) that a small amount of extra resistance in an old
plug wire , or a bad shield will make it noisy as well.
Hope this helps.
Dave Leonard N77FE Bellanca 17-30A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine. |
At 10:07 AM 1/18/2007 -0500, you wrote:
><dleonar1@maine.rr.com>
>
>RE: the noisy ignition Jabiru.
>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/magnetofilter.php
>My Viking / Continental/ Bendix mags was noisy unitil I installed these
>capacitors in the P leads. Then it stopped. I really don't know enough
>about it to explain the mechanics of this, but it definitely took the noise
>out of the audio. I assume the Jabiru mags have a p- lead somewhere, is
>there any kind of filter on it?
The way to confirm whether or not the p-leads are
contributing to the noise is to simply disconnect them
at the mags and run the engine. A wire that is NOT connected
cannot conduct or radiate noise.
If the noise goes away, then try wiring the mags as shown
in Figure Z-26 and Z-27. Note that shields for p-lead are
grounded to the ENGINE end only while the same shields
PROVIDE GROUND for the ignition switch.
If the noise comes back in spite of this treatment of shields,
then a p-lead filter is in order.
>I'm sure one of the geniuses ( my boss used to call us F*****g geniuses), on
>this list can find you a $.97 Cap that will do the job, I'm ashamed to say I
>paid $35.00 each for thes for my certified bird.
P-leads are connected across the magneto's timing
points which already has a high quality capacitor
tied across it. An on-purpose filter for the purpose
of attenuating noises conducted out of the mags on
p-leads would be a combination of inductance and some
SMALLER value of capacitance than what already exists
inside the mag. It's more than a $.97 capacitor.
>Are the Ignition wires shielded style? I was told by an avionics guy ( King
>factory type years ago) that a small amount of extra resistance in an old
>plug wire , or a bad shield will make it noisy as well.
Loss of shielding on a plug wire demonstrated to benefit
by shielding is a potential threat against electromagnetic
order. However, "resistances" in plug wires is another
matter. It was discovered over 70 years ago that much
radiated ignition noise from plug wires was a function of
the wire's efficiency as an antenna. Solid copper conductors
were much better radiators when circuit losses were low
a radio frequencies.
Predecessors to the modern EMC facility like the one
shown here . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Screen_Room_circa_1935.jpg
. . . were used to explore the effectiveness of various
noise mitigation techniques. It was discovered back then
that adding resistance in moderate amounts had little
effect on spark performance but a lot of effect in
killing the plug wire's efficiency as a radiator of
energy. Autolite, AC and others offered "resistor plugs"
with devices built into the assembly for the purpose of
reducing noise. Later, resistance wire replaced the
resistance plug . . . better to have the losses distributed
over the length of the wire as opposed to concentrated at
one end.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Radio interference when receiving |
At 09:48 AM 1/18/2007 +0000, you wrote:
><sideslip@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>Hi Bob,
>I have tried running one mag at a time- same problem from either.
>The ignition wiring is all installed by Jabiru only the mag kill wires
>have been installed by myself (screened wires earthing at the engine.
>The plug leads are resistive car type but the leads from coils to
>distributer caps are not marked so I am not sure about these and have my
>suspicions. I will contact Jabiru to find out. Also the plugs are NGK but
>not resistive type, perhaps it might be worth me changing these.
>The only drawing in the manual I can find is a very basic drawing which
>includes wiring for the Jabiru aircraft, and shows the ignition in a basic
>form ie.transistor ignition unit feeding to spark plugs.
Okay, try running the engine with kill-leads totally
disconnected at the engine end.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Northern California Seminar for 2007 |
April 21/22 have been selected as a date to visit Sonoma
California for a weekend seminar presentation in the
local EAA chapter facilities.
A sign-up page will be posted at:
http://aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html
as soon as we have all the data for location on the facility.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Wisconsin Seminar date set. |
EAA Chapter 1158 has offered their fine facility for
the presentation of a weekend seminar on June 2/3 of 2007.
A signup page has been posted for this event at:
http://aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Some notes on future AeroElectric Connection seminars |
2007 will mark a milestone in the presentation format for
our weekend seminars. Since my first teaching job at WU
in '62, I've favored the use of an overhead projector as
both a substitute for a chalk/white board (we used grease
pencils back then) and as a tool for presenting material
on transparencies.
I liked the fact that I could face the class while drawing
as opposed to having my back to them. I've used that methodology
for over 40 years. The 'core' of my current presentation
is a 3-ring binder full of slides. I hand-carry that binder
on airplanes . . . I can loose everything else in baggage but
it would be exceedingly difficult to deliver without the
contents of that binder!
This year, we're changing over to a power-point format enhanced
by a digital sketch pad, extensive photographic capabilities
and soon to be added video production. Folks who sign up
for the seminars in 2007 will get the beta-versions of the
2008 format for the 2006 price.
The price of the seminar will go up in 2008 but attendees will
take home electronic and paper copies of the presentation
materials. Our hope is that folks not only refer to them
often as their own projects move forward but will also be
use the materials to support any presentations they might
choose offer to their fellow builders.
Several times on this List I've suggested that knowledge
and understanding are among few commodities that grow in
value the more they are shared. I've been doing the seminars
now for over ten years and I believe the program needs to
rise to the next level of maturity while adding value in
terms of enabling any attendee's willingness to become a
teacher too.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 10
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| Subject: | starter warning light? |
A friend recommended adding a warning light to my panel that would simply
indicate whether there was power present at the starter. Is this providing
any real benefit? I presume the warning light would be lit for the few
seconds when I push my push-to-start button, but also when the button was
inadvertently stuck in the on position or the starter contactor was stuck
closed. Are a stuck switch or contactor likely enough to warrant this
warning light? I have vague memories of a starter run-on issue, but
perhaps that is a separate issue all together? Gotta re-read the
'Connection before I forget all the great stuff I learned.
Erich Weaver
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges |
Thanks to everyone for the help. Now to ponder the wiring needs for
future connection of Van's resistive float senders to GRT EIS/EFIS
circuitry. I'll research that and holler if I get stuck.
It's a challenge to run wires today for avionics you won't hold in
your hands for months to come :-)
-Bill B
On 1/18/07, William Slaughter <willslau@alumni.rice.edu> wrote:
>
> At the Van's web site, click on Construction FAQs and scroll down to Gauge
> Installation and Diagrams, or direct at
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Gauge_Install.pdf
>
> William Slaughter
> RV8QB almost ready to run some wires
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 8:14 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel
> gauges
>
>
> --> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 08:23 PM 1/17/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> <sportav8r@gmail.com>
> >
> >I find myself in need of the wiring schematic for the Isspro fuel
> >gauges that Van's sells - I think they're #8690, and am unable to find
> >it at the company website or with Google. I need to know how the
> >senders wire to the gauges and where the 12V and GND connections are
> >made.
> >
> >Confession time: I have these gauges in my plane now, but have lost the
> >old wiring diagram I drew at the time (which would have been an
> >embarassment if it still existed, like the rat's nest behind my present
> >panel). I need the info to design relevant parts of the diagram for
> >the new electrical system.
> >
> >Thanks,
>
> If someone has relevant data to share with Bill . . . send
> it to me also. I'll scan it and add to the library of installation
> data at aeroelectric.com
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: starter warning light? |
At 09:23 AM 1/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>A friend recommended adding a warning light to my panel that would simply
>indicate whether there was power present at the starter. Is this providing
>any real benefit? I presume the warning light would be lit for the few
>seconds when I push my push-to-start button, but also when the button was
>inadvertently stuck in the on position or the starter contactor was stuck
>closed. Are a stuck switch or contactor likely enough to warrant this
>warning light? I have vague memories of a starter run-on issue, but
>perhaps that is a separate issue all together? Gotta re-read the
>'Connection before I forget all the great stuff I learned.
Starter "run-on" and "sticking" are two separate issues. Run-on
is a phenomenon unique to permanent magnet motors on starters
that under certain wiring configurations will cause a delayed
dis-engagement of the pinion gear after the engine catches and
the starter button is released.
One solution to this problem is illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/PM_Starter_w_RunOn_Relay.pdf
The value of a STARTER ENGAGED light is to detect a stuck
starter button and/or stuck starter contactor. These events
are rare but allowed to proceed without detection is always
expensive.
You can use an LED. Put the LED's ballasting resistor right
at the starter main power terminal. Incorporate into the
wire using techniques described in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Homeless/Homeless_Components.htm
Put a diode across the LED in the reverse direction to protect
from small reverse votlage transients that are ALWAYS hard
on LEDs. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Starter_Engaged_Warning_Lt.pdf
It's a toss up. Adding the light is relatively easy, inexpensive
and doesn't add much weight to the airplane. It's easier to add
while building the airplane than to add it after it's finished.
If you're un-decided, at least pull the wire in and cap it off
to make it easier to add later.
Another instance of value added warning lights for starter
control systems is illustrated at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf
Here we see a means by which a 24 volt starter can be
serviced in 14 volt airplane. The lights are designed to
detect a stuck contactor in the series/parallel changeover
contactors. An unattended sticking of one of these relays
causes BIG fault currents to flow when buttons are pushed.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------------------------
< What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
< the authority which determines whether there can be >
< debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
< scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
< with experiment. >
< --Lawrence M. Krauss >
---------------------------------------------------------
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Some notes on future AeroElectric Connection |
seminars
Hey Bob,
Speaking of losing your binder... It might make sense to "publish" your
presentation materials to a server that at least you can gain access to
via the internet. If your laptop dies, or some other resource gets away
from you while on a presentation trip, you could round up the physical
materials local to the presentation site, and the soft stuff you could
download from your site. Doing so would probably just kind of guarantee
that you wouldn't ever have a problem while on the road. :)
Matt-
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> 2007 will mark a milestone in the presentation format for
> our weekend seminars. Since my first teaching job at WU
> in '62, I've favored the use of an overhead projector as
> both a substitute for a chalk/white board (we used grease
> pencils back then) and as a tool for presenting material
> on transparencies.
>
> I liked the fact that I could face the class while drawing
> as opposed to having my back to them. I've used that methodology
> for over 40 years. The 'core' of my current presentation
> is a 3-ring binder full of slides. I hand-carry that binder
> on airplanes . . . I can loose everything else in baggage but
> it would be exceedingly difficult to deliver without the
> contents of that binder!
>
> This year, we're changing over to a power-point format enhanced
> by a digital sketch pad, extensive photographic capabilities
> and soon to be added video production. Folks who sign up
> for the seminars in 2007 will get the beta-versions of the
> 2008 format for the 2006 price.
>
> The price of the seminar will go up in 2008 but attendees will
> take home electronic and paper copies of the presentation
> materials. Our hope is that folks not only refer to them
> often as their own projects move forward but will also be
> use the materials to support any presentations they might
> choose offer to their fellow builders.
>
> Several times on this List I've suggested that knowledge
> and understanding are among few commodities that grow in
> value the more they are shared. I've been doing the seminars
> now for over ten years and I believe the program needs to
> rise to the next level of maturity while adding value in
> terms of enabling any attendee's willingness to become a
> teacher too.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: starter warning light? |
Bob,
On the B&C website, the documentation for the starter relay says you can use the
I terminal as a starter on light source.
Is this different than the solutions you have described below?
Thanks,
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>Sent: Jan 18, 2007 1:09 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starter warning light?
>
>
>At 09:23 AM 1/18/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>A friend recommended adding a warning light to my panel that would simply
>>indicate whether there was power present at the starter. Is this providing
>>any real benefit? I presume the warning light would be lit for the few
>>seconds when I push my push-to-start button, but also when the button was
>>inadvertently stuck in the on position or the starter contactor was stuck
>>closed. Are a stuck switch or contactor likely enough to warrant this
>>warning light? I have vague memories of a starter run-on issue, but
>>perhaps that is a separate issue all together? Gotta re-read the
>>'Connection before I forget all the great stuff I learned.
>
> Starter "run-on" and "sticking" are two separate issues. Run-on
> is a phenomenon unique to permanent magnet motors on starters
> that under certain wiring configurations will cause a delayed
> dis-engagement of the pinion gear after the engine catches and
> the starter button is released.
>
> One solution to this problem is illustrated at:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/PM_Starter_w_RunOn_Relay.pdf
>
> The value of a STARTER ENGAGED light is to detect a stuck
> starter button and/or stuck starter contactor. These events
> are rare but allowed to proceed without detection is always
> expensive.
>
> You can use an LED. Put the LED's ballasting resistor right
> at the starter main power terminal. Incorporate into the
> wire using techniques described in:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Homeless/Homeless_Components.htm
>
> Put a diode across the LED in the reverse direction to protect
> from small reverse votlage transients that are ALWAYS hard
> on LEDs. See:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/Starter_Engaged_Warning_Lt.pdf
>
> It's a toss up. Adding the light is relatively easy, inexpensive
> and doesn't add much weight to the airplane. It's easier to add
> while building the airplane than to add it after it's finished.
> If you're un-decided, at least pull the wire in and cap it off
> to make it easier to add later.
>
> Another instance of value added warning lights for starter
> control systems is illustrated at:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf
>
> Here we see a means by which a 24 volt starter can be
> serviced in 14 volt airplane. The lights are designed to
> detect a stuck contactor in the series/parallel changeover
> contactors. An unattended sticking of one of these relays
> causes BIG fault currents to flow when buttons are pushed.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Some notes on future AeroElectric Connection seminars |
On 1/18/07 11:53 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> wrote:
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> 2007 will mark a milestone in the presentation format for
> our weekend seminars. Since my first teaching job at WU
> in '62, I've favored the use of an overhead projector as
> both a substitute for a chalk/white board (we used grease
> pencils back then) and as a tool for presenting material
> on transparencies.
>
> I liked the fact that I could face the class while drawing
> as opposed to having my back to them. I've used that methodology
> for over 40 years. The 'core' of my current presentation
> is a 3-ring binder full of slides. I hand-carry that binder
> on airplanes . . . I can loose everything else in baggage but
> it would be exceedingly difficult to deliver without the
> contents of that binder!
>
> This year, we're changing over to a power-point format enhanced
> by a digital sketch pad, extensive photographic capabilities
> and soon to be added video production. Folks who sign up
> for the seminars in 2007 will get the beta-versions of the
> 2008 format for the 2006 price.
>
> The price of the seminar will go up in 2008 but attendees will
> take home electronic and paper copies of the presentation
> materials. Our hope is that folks not only refer to them
> often as their own projects move forward but will also be
> use the materials to support any presentations they might
> choose offer to their fellow builders.
>
> Several times on this List I've suggested that knowledge
> and understanding are among few commodities that grow in
> value the more they are shared. I've been doing the seminars
> now for over ten years and I believe the program needs to
> rise to the next level of maturity while adding value in
> terms of enabling any attendee's willingness to become a
> teacher too.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >
> < the authority which determines whether there can be >
> < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of >
> < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests >
> < with experiment. >
> < --Lawrence M. Krauss >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
Bob, you never seem to get to Western NY? Lory Ghertner
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: starter warning light? |
At 01:39 PM 1/18/2007 -0500, you wrote:
><recapen@earthlink.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>On the B&C website, the documentation for the starter relay says you can
>use the I terminal as a starter on light source.
>
>Is this different than the solutions you have described below?
If your starter contactor HAS and "I" terminal, it can
be used for this purpose. I show the "generic" version
because it works with any contactor . . . INCLUDING the
one built onto the starter whether or not it incorporates
an "I" terminal.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Notes on AeroElectric Connection seminars |
At 11:10 AM 1/18/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Hey Bob,
>
>Speaking of losing your binder... It might make sense to "publish" your
>presentation materials to a server that at least you can gain access to
>via the internet. If your laptop dies, or some other resource gets away
>from you while on a presentation trip, you could round up the physical
>materials local to the presentation site, and the soft stuff you could
>download from your site. Doing so would probably just kind of guarantee
>that you wouldn't ever have a problem while on the road. :)
Yeah. I've done that with other critical data files. I've got
some directories on the website server that are not generally
accessible to the public. Actually, as cheap and dense as
the thumb-drives are getting, I'll probably carry back-up
copies of all presentation materials on my keychain. Push
comes to shove, I can rent/borrow enough equipment to bail
out a crippled presentation.
Bob . . .
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric Connection seminars |
At 01:40 PM 1/18/2007 -0500, you wrote:
><nghertner@verizon.net>
>
>On 1/18/07 11:53 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> >
>Bob, you never seem to get to Western NY? Lory Ghertner
Only because you haven't asked. We'll do a program any place
we can seat 20+ folks at tables. I don't pick the locations
because I don't know where the amenable EAA chapters are
all located. If you'd like to see a program delivered in
your neighborhood, have your local EAA chapter get in touch.
Have P.A. system, will travel.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges |
Hi Bill,
If you find good information regarding Van's fuel level senders to GRT EFIS/
EIS, please share it - I'm almost there.
Don Owens
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel
gauges
Thanks to everyone for the help. Now to ponder the wiring needs for
future connection of Van's resistive float senders to GRT EIS/EFIS
circuitry. I'll research that and holler if I get stuck.
--
1:03 PM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: starter warning light? |
Thanks
-----> If your starter contactor HAS and "I" terminal, it can
> be used for this purpose.
Message 21
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| Subject: | how to wire basic resistive Isspro fuel gauges |
Bill,
Contact GRT and they will provide two resistors to be used in
hooking up the Stewart Warner float type fuel level units. I will do
that I think but at this time I have the Van's gages mounted and I also
have the optical low fuel level devices to be my back up. These are
available from Aircraft Extras. These are (almost) fool proof. I will
use my clock and prior burns for the main determination, then fuel gages
backed up with the optical units. Your right, I am NOT going to run out
of fuel. I hope to prevent any screw ups from causing my unscheduled
landings.
Jim Nelson
FWF about done - wings next.
Message 22
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| Subject: | starter warning light? |
OK, got it: starter run-on and sticking are different issues. But assuming
I install the warning light and subsequently have a starter run-on
occurrence, will the warning light be on while the run-on is occurring? An
individual suggested to me off-list that if the starter gear is stuck in
the engaged position and the engine is running (push-to-start button
released and starter contactor open), the starter motor could act as a
generator and produce some current. If this is the case, it would seem
that a warning light that stayed on a little longer than the short period
my push to start button was in use could potentially be warning me of the
dreaded run-on condition instead of just the stuck contactor or stuck
starter button. Added value or just wishful thinking?
Erich Weaver
Message 23
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| Subject: | Radio interference when receiving |
Geoff,
I don't remember your saying what kind of noise it is i.e.. Tick,tick .
. . . or a Hash type noise.
I know a chap over here with a Jabiru (with Jab engine) and he had to
put an earth wire on the carburettor to stop static interference on his
radio.
Now if anybody thinks this is a load of hog wash, please don't shoot ME,
I'm only the messenger !
Cheers
Kingsley in Oz.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine. |
bob,
let me talk thru this and see if i have it right as i have questions about
this. wires that ground the jab coils at the ignition switch are shielded.
this shielding is grounded at the engine end of the shielding . this
shielding is used at the ignition switch to ground the switch. the shield is
attached at the switch where you would attach a wire to ground the switch.
this shielding is providing the same ground to the switch as if the switch
had been attached to a negative ''forest of tabs''. have i got all this
right? thanks for yourhelp, bob noffs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:30 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine.
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 10:07 AM 1/18/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>
>><dleonar1@maine.rr.com>
>>
>>RE: the noisy ignition Jabiru.
>>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/magnetofilter.php
>>My Viking / Continental/ Bendix mags was noisy unitil I installed these
>>capacitors in the P leads. Then it stopped. I really don't know enough
>>about it to explain the mechanics of this, but it definitely took the
>>noise
>>out of the audio. I assume the Jabiru mags have a p- lead somewhere, is
>>there any kind of filter on it?
>
> The way to confirm whether or not the p-leads are
> contributing to the noise is to simply disconnect them
> at the mags and run the engine. A wire that is NOT connected
> cannot conduct or radiate noise.
>
> If the noise goes away, then try wiring the mags as shown
> in Figure Z-26 and Z-27. Note that shields for p-lead are
> grounded to the ENGINE end only while the same shields
> PROVIDE GROUND for the ignition switch.
>
> If the noise comes back in spite of this treatment of shields,
> then a p-lead filter is in order.
>
>
>>I'm sure one of the geniuses ( my boss used to call us F*****g geniuses),
>>on
>>this list can find you a $.97 Cap that will do the job, I'm ashamed to say
>>I
>>paid $35.00 each for thes for my certified bird.
>
> P-leads are connected across the magneto's timing
> points which already has a high quality capacitor
> tied across it. An on-purpose filter for the purpose
> of attenuating noises conducted out of the mags on
> p-leads would be a combination of inductance and some
> SMALLER value of capacitance than what already exists
> inside the mag. It's more than a $.97 capacitor.
>
>
>>Are the Ignition wires shielded style? I was told by an avionics guy (
>>King
>>factory type years ago) that a small amount of extra resistance in an old
>>plug wire , or a bad shield will make it noisy as well.
>
> Loss of shielding on a plug wire demonstrated to benefit
> by shielding is a potential threat against electromagnetic
> order. However, "resistances" in plug wires is another
> matter. It was discovered over 70 years ago that much
> radiated ignition noise from plug wires was a function of
> the wire's efficiency as an antenna. Solid copper conductors
> were much better radiators when circuit losses were low
> a radio frequencies.
>
> Predecessors to the modern EMC facility like the one
> shown here . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Screen_Room_circa_1935.jpg
>
> . . . were used to explore the effectiveness of various
> noise mitigation techniques. It was discovered back then
> that adding resistance in moderate amounts had little
> effect on spark performance but a lot of effect in
> killing the plug wire's efficiency as a radiator of
> energy. Autolite, AC and others offered "resistor plugs"
> with devices built into the assembly for the purpose of
> reducing noise. Later, resistance wire replaced the
> resistance plug . . . better to have the losses distributed
> over the length of the wire as opposed to concentrated at
> one end.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 25
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In starting to gather some electrical tools as I get deeper in my RV-9A
project, I wanted to sample some opinions on inexpensive electrical
tools (crimpers, both PIDG and D-sub pin types, strippers for wire and
coax, etc). After perusing the Connection and website articles,
archives, etc., I am noting there is a large price difference for the
same clones of crimpers, strippers, etc, that may not be very
justifiable. For example, HF has a ratcheting crimper for $10, and the
exact looking one sells at B and C for $40. Same with Stripmaster clones
and so on. I am a big believer in spending a premium dollar for a tool
if it really is above and beyond a competitor's or serves a unique
niche, but is there a reason I can't utilize some of these inexpensive
tools successfully (perhaps with a little more practice than needed with
the high dollar comparable)? Any tools folks recommend really staying
away from?
Thanks,
Carl
Message 26
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Remember...this is just my opinion:
1) strippers: if you're going to buy cheap strippers, get expensive
el'cheapo strippers (i.e. manual strippers), NOT cheap "automatic"
strippers. Or learn to strip wire with a sharp pair of good cutters. I
like Xuron's and can consistently strip wire without ever cutting
through the insulation. Slight pressure, twist the cutters to get a
nice ring all around, and give a little tug. Voila'. Cheap automatic
strippers can be very hit or miss. Some will work OK....others will
drive you bonkers. Personally, I really like my manual strippers the
best of all. Even the best ones are pretty cheap, easy to adjust and
they can get into tight spaces.
2) Crimpers: Buy'em and try'em. Either they work or they don't. If
they don't, just return them to HF.
3) Electrical tools to stay away from: As far as I can tell, just about
any tool you can buy at Radio Shack is either a piece of junk, or works
moderately well but is over priced. Poor value. Just my opinion...I'm
sure I'll be flamed for that one :)
You certainly can't ever go wrong with premium tools but unless you're
in a production environment, using them day in and day out (and
*calibrating* them, of course), what's the point? That said, Stein and
B&C both seem to sell decent (nowhere near premium) tools at a decent
price. You probably won't go wrong with either and it'll save you some
leg work figuring out how good is good enough to keep from driving
yourself nuts with botched parts...that's what you pay a little extra
for, I guess.
-John
www.ballofshame.com
Carl Peters wrote:
> <say.ahh1@verizon.net>
>
> In starting to gather some electrical tools as I get deeper in my
> RV-9A project, I wanted to sample some opinions on inexpensive
> electrical tools (crimpers, both PIDG and D-sub pin types, strippers
> for wire and coax, etc). After perusing the Connection and website
> articles, archives, etc., I am noting there is a large price
> difference for the same clones of crimpers, strippers, etc, that may
> not be very justifiable. For example, HF has a ratcheting crimper for
> $10, and the exact looking one sells at B and C for $40. Same with
> Stripmaster clones and so on. I am a big believer in spending a
> premium dollar for a tool if it really is above and beyond a
> competitor's or serves a unique niche, but is there a reason I can't
> utilize some of these inexpensive tools successfully (perhaps with a
> little more practice than needed with the high dollar comparable)? Any
> tools folks recommend really staying away from?
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
>
> .
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition noise in Jabiru engine. |
This is my first post here - I just had to add to the comments about Jab ignition
interference. I have a factory built J230 and since new I have experienced
interference when receiving anything but strong signals - no problem with transmissions
, only reception.
I changed to resistor plugs and they made a slight difference. one thing I cannot
understand is when receiving a weak station and I turn the right mag off the
noise all but disappears and the signal doubles in strength!!
Turning off left mag makes no difference. I have swapped coils from side to side
, checked dizzy caps and rotors , fitted new ht leads ,all to no avail. As a
last resort I am considering sheilding upper and lower cowls with adhesive aluminium
foil and electricly bonding them to the firewall. Any suggestions please?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=88782#88782
Message 28
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Strippers: Do NOT get the plastic strippers sold on TV
(http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductPics/Latest%20.jpegs/200-091.jpg).
They are junk! They might work for the first few strips, and then
things start going downhill fast! Now, I know Bob doesn't like the
other automatic strippers out there, but I used to strip wire with my
teeth for about 30 years and I finally found complete bliss with
these things:
http://www.eclipsetools.com/ProductPics/Latest%20.jpegs/200-003.JPG
PIDG crimper: Bite the bullet and get the correct $40 one from B and
C Specialties. You'll use it a LOT and the cheaper ones don't work
well at crimping the wire and the insulation correctly. I bought 2
different "generic" ones, and neither of them crimped as well as the
one correct one from B&C.
Coax: I can't speak to the special tools now available for this
because since I was 15 I've always done coax connectors with my
teeth, a good sharp knife, and a soldering iron (including once while
hanging from mountain climbing ropes off the side of a 130 foot water tower).
A volt-ohmmeter with audible continuity checker for when you're
hanging upside-down under the panel holding a different wire in each
of your four hands. Cheap ones work fine and you can stash one in
the cockpit, one at home, one at the hangar, one in the glovebox of
the car, etc.
Dave Morris
At 09:48 PM 1/18/2007, you wrote:
>
>In starting to gather some electrical tools as I get deeper in my
>RV-9A project, I wanted to sample some opinions on inexpensive
>electrical tools (crimpers, both PIDG and D-sub pin types, strippers
>for wire and coax, etc). After perusing the Connection and website
>articles, archives, etc., I am noting there is a large price
>difference for the same clones of crimpers, strippers, etc, that may
>not be very justifiable. For example, HF has a ratcheting crimper
>for $10, and the exact looking one sells at B and C for $40. Same
>with Stripmaster clones and so on. I am a big believer in spending a
>premium dollar for a tool if it really is above and beyond a
>competitor's or serves a unique niche, but is there a reason I can't
>utilize some of these inexpensive tools successfully (perhaps with a
>little more practice than needed with the high dollar comparable)?
>Any tools folks recommend really staying away from?
>Thanks,
>Carl
>
>
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