---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/19/07: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:16 AM - Re: starter warning light? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 05:18 AM - Re: Tooling up (LarryRobertHelming) 3. 07:52 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 28 Msgs - 01/18/07 (William Morgan) 4. 08:18 AM - Re: Tooling up (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:24 AM - Re: Starting points redux (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: Starting points redux (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:58 AM - more direct method for designing electrical system (Larry E. James) 8. 09:41 AM - Re: more direct method for designing electrical system (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Starting points redux (Bret Smith) 10. 10:02 AM - Re: more direct method for designing electrical system (Michael Ice) 11. 10:39 AM - Re: more direct method for designing electrical system (Kevin Horton) 12. 10:40 AM - Re: more direct method for designing electrical system (Steve Thomas) 13. 10:56 AM - inrush limiters for landing lights (Bill Boyd) 14. 10:56 AM - Re: more direct method for designing electrical system (LarryRobertHelming) 15. 12:01 PM - Strobe Light Selection (mwcreek@frontiernet.net) 16. 01:10 PM - Re: Strobe Light Selection (LarryMcFarland) 17. 01:26 PM - Re: inrush limiters for landing lights (Vern Little) 18. 01:53 PM - Re: Strobe Light Selection (Werner Schneider) 19. 05:35 PM - Nav radios in certified aircraft (Dave N6030X) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starter warning light? At 02:09 PM 1/18/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > >OK, got it: starter run-on and sticking are different issues. But assuming >I install the warning light and subsequently have a starter run-on >occurrence, will the warning light be on while the run-on is occurring? Yes. While the PM motor is spinning down the voltage generated by the rotating armature will keep the light lit. As the armature comes to a stop the light will go out. > An >individual suggested to me off-list that if the starter gear is stuck in >the engaged position and the engine is running (push-to-start button >released and starter contactor open), the starter motor could act as a >generator and produce some current. A much fertilize myth. Starters have over-run clutches. The engine CANNOT be allowed to 'push' the starter under any circumstances. Consider that a highly geared starter armature is spinning at thousands of RPM while cranking the engine at perhaps 300 rpm. When the engine starts, it jumps up to 1000-1500 rpm. This 3 to 5 times increase in speed cannot be allowed to impress on the starter's gears and armature. The forces applied to gear teeth place them at risk. Spinning the armature places winding and commutator at risk for damage due to centrifugal forces. > If this is the case, it would seem >that a warning light that stayed on a little longer than the short period >my push to start button was in use could potentially be warning me of the >dreaded run-on condition instead of just the stuck contactor or stuck >starter button. Added value or just wishful thinking? The condition we've called "run-on" is poorly named. It's really "delayed disengagement" do to currents circulating in the pinion gear engagement solenoid that are being generated in a slowing armature spinning in a permanent magnetic field. I've never personally observed this event but it's my understanding that it lasts perhaps 3-5 seconds. The "run-on" condition is not particularly stressful on the starter . . . because of the over-run clutch cited. Assuming (1) you wire your starter engaged light so as to sense voltage at the starter motor power terminal and (2) it's a PM starter and (3) you HAVE installed the relay intended to prevent delayed disengagement then, you would STILL observe a fading STARTER ENGAGED indication from the annunciator as the starter motor spins down. This happens in spite of the fact that the relay has broken the circuit responsible for delayed disengagement. The light has value in that it shows when voltage is present at the starter motor terminals at times when it is not expected or desirable. It will also demonstrate the voltage generating quality of a PM motor as it spins down after being disconnected from the battery. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:14 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tooling up I am all for saving money too. Lots of the high priced tools are for jobbers who use them day in and out. We plane builders need them for a couple of months at most hopefully. For wire stripper I like the manual type. Takes a bit of practice to get good but they work. Most inexpensive automatic strippers do not work well with aviation grade wire. I bought my manual one at Radio Shack. For crimper, you should get a good one. I have some HF tools but not their crimper. Too much riding on it in my thinking. You do not want to be debugging things a few years down the road and a bad intermittent connection due to crimper could be the problem. $40 is not a bad price for that peace of mind. I think I bought mine from Wicks which was the ratcheting type. I also have a manual squeeze crimper that has three crimp sizes. They both work well. You can get the job done nicely with the manual type. However, I like the ratcheting type because it will hold the connector while you insert the wire and ensures the squeeze is just right. For coax, you need the correct type for the wire size you use. Be careful to get the correct size and you will be happy. I think I bought mine from B & C. Keep the instructions and use them on how to properly cut and prepare the coax when using the particular tool for good results. For crimping D-sub connectors, I got the B&C which is nice and works perfectly. Not cheap. D-sub connectors are delicate and a precision tool is well worth the cost.. You will be happy with B & C or Stein products. If not, you will be dealt with in a manner that makes you happy. That has been my experience with dealing with both of them. Indiana Larry ----- Original Message ----- Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tooling up > gather some electrical tools as I get deeper in my RV-9A project, I wanted > to sample some opinions on inexpensive electrical tools (crimpers, both > PIDG and D-sub pin types, strippers for wire and coax, etc). After > perusing the Connection and website articles, archives, etc., I am noting > there is a large price difference for the same clones of crimpers, > strippers, etc, that may not be very justifiable. For example, HF has a > ratcheting crimper for $10, and the exact looking one sells at B and C for > $40. Same with Stripmaster clones and so on. I am a big believer in > spending a premium dollar for a tool if it really is above and beyond a > competitor's or serves a unique niche, but is there a reason I can't > utilize some of these inexpensive tools successfully (perhaps with a > little more practice than needed with the high dollar comparable)? Any > tools folks recommend really staying away from? > Thanks, > Carl > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:13 AM PST US From: William Morgan Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 28 Msgs - 01/18/07 I own 5 different Ideal Stripmasters for different types / sizes of wires. One of them is about 40 years old (bought it at Heathkit store). I have compared the Ideal Stripmmaster to just about every other wire stripper out there and there is no comparison. I use a single edge razor blade for large wire, coax cable and shielded multi-conductor. I bought the B&C BCT-1 B-crimp open barrel type crimper and am happy with that. I plan on buying a B&C BCT-2 also. I bought the B&C RCT-2 coaxial crimper and am happy with that. I have a PIDG type crimper with inter-changable jaws from Hi-Line (don't remember the number, but it has an angled head) that is excellent but a little pricey. It has a high leverage linkage so requires very little effort to crimp, I also have the B&C RCT-1 PIDG crimp tool but seldom use it anymore. I have an eight way indent crimper that a friend in the wire manufacturing business gave me that looks like the B&C RCT-3 (he said I did not what to know what it cost) and have used the B&C RCT-3. Go with the RCT-3. Buy a Weller soldering iron. My 25 watt iron is also about 40 years old. Get some extra tips in various sizes. Hemostats, flush-cut wire cutters (to trim open barrel connectors per Bob's instructions) and a small needle-nose plier are also handy. Don't forget a shrink tube heat gun. Mine is from Harbor Freight. Got it for $10. Scott @ William Morgan Warbirds At 01:55 AM 1/19/2007, you wrote: >Time: 08:55:28 PM PST US >From: Carl Peters >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tooling up > > >In starting to gather some electrical tools as I get deeper in my RV-9A >project, I wanted to sample some opinions on inexpensive electrical >tools (crimpers, both PIDG and D-sub pin types, strippers for wire and >coax, etc). After perusing the Connection and website articles, >archives, etc., I am noting there is a large price difference for the >same clones of crimpers, strippers, etc, that may not be very >justifiable. For example, HF has a ratcheting crimper for $10, and the >exact looking one sells at B and C for $40. Same with Stripmaster clones >and so on. I am a big believer in spending a premium dollar for a tool >if it really is above and beyond a competitor's or serves a unique >niche, but is there a reason I can't utilize some of these inexpensive >tools successfully (perhaps with a little more practice than needed with >the high dollar comparable)? Any tools folks recommend really staying >away from? >Thanks, >Carl ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:15 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tooling up At 07:17 AM 1/19/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >I am all for saving money too. Lots of the high priced tools are for >jobbers who use them day in and out. We plane builders need them for a >couple of months at most hopefully. > >For wire stripper I like the manual type. Takes a bit of practice to get >good but they work. Most inexpensive automatic strippers do not work well >with aviation grade wire. I bought my manual one at Radio Shack. The best strippers for teflon/tefzel insulations are expensive. OK Stripmasters with the proper dies installed are about $170 a copy. With a little practice, one can produce satisfactory strips with ordinary wire cutters but it takes some technique and practice. This is one of the techniques I demonstrate in my seminars and everyone gets a chance to strip some Tefzel wires before installing a variety of terminals/pins. I own quite a few stripping tools but they tend to be either stone-simple and very process sensitive or the $high$ Stripmasters. It's a matter of what you're willing to learn. >For crimper, you should get a good one. I have some HF tools but not >their crimper. Too much riding on it in my thinking. You do not want to >be debugging things a few years down the road and a bad intermittent >connection due to crimper could be the problem. $40 is not a bad price >for that peace of mind. I think I bought mine from Wicks which was the >ratcheting type. I also have a manual squeeze crimper that has three >crimp sizes. They both work well. You can get the job done nicely with >the manual type. However, I like the ratcheting type because it will hold >the connector while you insert the wire and ensures the squeeze is just right. The best PIDG tool is the AMP T-head hand tool illustrated in . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html The $40 tool is illustrated there too. Both produce satisfactory terminal installations. The last time I put my hands on the $10 ratchet-handled tool from Harbor Freight, it appeared to be a clone of the $40 tool and a good value. See also http://aeroelectric.com/articles/rules/review.html >For coax, you need the correct type for the wire size you use. Be careful >to get the correct size and you will be happy. I think I bought mine from >B & C. Keep the instructions and use them on how to properly cut and >prepare the coax when using the particular tool for good results. Get an adjustable tool like http://tinyurl.com/ypxzv5 These can be set up for a variety of coaxes and comes with the allen wrench needed for adjusting the blades. This is the tool I demonstrate at the seminars and give away as door prizes. See also: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Coax_Stripper/coaxstrip.html http://aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf I've had some problems with crimp tools of all sources except AMP and other $high$ brands. Many tools in the 40-100 dollar range have a slightly undersized, ".213 hex die that does an adequate but ugly crimp on the sleeve intended to secure the shield. The undersized die causes the sleeve to extrude into the gap between the two dies on the tool. Looks crappy. Here's some data on coax connectors. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/Coax http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/clampcm.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/crimpbf.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/crimpcf.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Connectors/s605cm.jpg >For crimping D-sub connectors, I got the B&C which is nice and works >perfectly. Not cheap. D-sub connectors are delicate and a precision tool >is well worth the cost.. The best D-sub tools are priced in the hundreds of dollars but you can often get good deals on e-bay like this . . . http://tinyurl.com/27588z Be aware that you not only need the handle shown but a pin-positioner unique to the style of pin being installed. Again, I own a variety of tools including the $high$ and the $40 tool from B&C. All produce satisfactory installations and unless you're "in the business" like I am, the $40 tool will do what you need done. >You will be happy with B & C or Stein products. If not, you will be dealt >with in a manner that makes you happy. That has been my experience with >dealing with both of them. And either one will work with you to make sure that the tools and connectors/terminals you've purchased are compatible with the wire/cable you're trying to install. Not ALL tools will properly install ALL terminations on ALL wires. AMP didn't get to be the big kid in the sandbox by ignoring the science of good crimped installations. There are some adequate up-n-commers out there but a modicum of caution is useful. Rely on those suppliers dedicated to the business of helping YOU with YOUR tasks. See also: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: Starting points redux Here's a reprint on a reply I crafted for a builder some years ago dealing with some of the issues faced by a neophyte builder in coming to grips with a new task . . . configure and fabricate an aircraft electrical system. ------------------****************------------------- At 05:44 PM 10/27/2002 -0500, you wrote >Thanks for your reply and I do appreciate the time you have >spent. No problem. It's what I do . . . >*IF* I knew anything about this subject I wouldn't have asked >for help with *specifics*. I don't have the time to experiment >and see who is right (or wrong). You are generally regarded as >a guru in your discipline and I had hoped there would be a >"reasonable, definitive and irrefutable answer", Since I have >not been shown anything (by anyone), I guess I need to choose >what seems to be the safest course of direction. > >I am not trying to argue or diminish your knowledge on the >subject in any form or fashion. I simply need a document that >will be an accurate guide and keep me out of trouble. The 43-13 >is generally regarded as the "accepted" methodology, not >withstanding an heretofore unseen document that would supersede >the 43-13 handbook. > >You mention that you could sit down and write some. Let me >tell you that would be welcomed with open arms throughout >the experimental community. I have read a lot of what you >have wrote and it makes a lot of sense. A document about >wiring in an vibrating environment would be a great asset >to our community. "To Solder or Not to Solder". ---------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. Here are the "rules" by which Bob Nuckolls would wire his own airplane: ---------------------------------------------------------------- RULE 1: First choice for joining/terminating any wires up through 22 through 12AWG are PIDG style terminals as described in http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/terminal.pdf using tools like http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-1 or better. --------------------------- RULE 2: Where there is a choice, I would select fast-ons over threaded fasteners in the 22 to 12 AWG range using terminals like http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#faston with features as explained in http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/faston3.pdf --------------------------- RULE 3: When I have to live with a treaded fastener then these terminals are in order . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#s816p ---------------------------- RULE 4: For wires larger than 12AWG, then I would solder and heatshrink joints as described in . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf Using materials like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/s812.jpg which are supplied with double-wall heatshrink for finishing. ------------------------------- RULE 5A: Permanent splicing of single conductors to be accomplished with butt splices like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/s816.jpg ------------------------------- RULE 5B: but if it was deemed desirable to break the splice open for future convenience, a knife splice and heat shrink would be used thusly . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/ksplc2.jpg ------------------------------- RULE 6: When the accessory items are supplied with nylon connectors like AMP Mate-n-Lock or Molex, pins are installed with a tool like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#bct-1 used thusly . . . http://216.55.140.222/articles/matenlok/matenlok.html These connectors would only be used as an accommodation for the use of an accessory that comes with them already installed. They are not my connector style of choice for any other applications. ------------------------------------ RULE 7A: When working with accessories supplied with D-sub connectors, the first choice of mating connectors is the removable pin variety that will accept machined pins like . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/connect/connect.html#S604 installed with a tool like http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-3 and removed with a tool like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#dse-1 --------------------------------------- RULE 7B: if for any reason the crimped-pin mating d-sub is not available, then soldering is my second choice using techniques described in . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/dsubs/d_solder.html and tools like http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#s101_1 or better ----------------------------------------- RULE 7C: If options 7A and 7B are not practical, then the lowest order choice for working with d-subs is open barrel crimped pins installed with a tools and techniques like those described in RULE 6. ----------------------------------------- RULE 8: Installation of connectors on coaxial cables to antennas are installed per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/bnccrimp.pdf using tool . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/tools/tools.html#rct-2 and wire . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/antenna/antenna.html#rg-400 and connectors . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/antenna/antenna.html ------------------------------------------- RULE 9: A single point ground system shall be established behind the instrument panel with sufficient attach points for all accessories in the cockpit area. In deference to RULE 2, a forest-of-fast-on-tabs ground block similar to . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#gndblk The threaded stud on the ground block assembly would penetrate the firewall and be used to terminate battery (-) leads on either side of firewall and the crankcase ground strap on the engine side of the firewall. In the case of canard pushers with the battery up front, the ground bus would be mounted forward of the instrument panel. If the airplane's firewall is metalic, then a brass bolt and appropriate washers and nuts would be used to provide an engine compartment ground stud and connection of the ground lead to the firewall. A ground strap like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/wiring/wiring.html#bbs . . . will be used to connect the crankcase to the firewall ground stud. Any ground straps provided around the rubber biscuits of an engine mount will be removed. Engine mounts are for holding engines on airplanes and not use for any part of the electrical system. ------------------------------------------- RULE 10: Tefzel wire used throughout with the exception of cranking circuit fat wires where 4AWG or 2AWG welding cable would be used. An alternative FAT wire could be one of the new copper-clad aluminum wires. These new materials are as solderable and crimpable as pure copper conductors. Caution To get the same electrical performance, you need to use about 2AWG steps larger wire than for copper but the installed wire will still be lighter. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Here endeth the reading of the rules. In parallel universes there are differing rules which may well prove to be as useful or perhaps even better than those cited in Bob's universe. Given what Bob has learned up to and including Sunday, October 27, 2003 the rules cited above are his personal choices for practical, solid techniques using moderately priced materials, and tools. Adherence to these rules is likely to produce an electrical system where (1) component wear-out and failure are the sole causes for maintenance and (2) the wiring can be expected to perform as intended over the lifetime of the airplane. ------------------------------------------------------------------- >Here is how I perceive the question, "When can you use solder on >a #2 wire?" Answer, "Well, that depends!". I can't deal with that >kind of an answer. Unfortunately that is all I have been getting >from our canard community rank and file. Yes, it does depend . . . on only one thing. Whether or not YOU want to solder wires. If any of the rank and file disagree with this, please invite them to bring the facts as they perceive them over to the AeroElectric-List. If I'm unaware of some critical information on the matter, I and several hundred others are intently interested in knowing what it is. This isn't a battle of wills or a turf war. We need to be constantly evolving the art and science of building airplanes based on physics. If I am in error, nobody is more interested in knowing about it than I am. > Let's take any war story you find "believable" and do a > > critical analysis of facts cited to see how they add value > > to our deliberations. > >Bob, you are getting picky here, I must have hit a nerve, I >didn't mean to. Take my word for it however, there have been >recent posts of this and breaking because they were soldered. >I just am not going to find them at this time as most were >bad work anyway. One fellow emailed me and stated a bad crimp >is just as bad a bad solder. Hummmmm? You brought up war stories as having an influence on your deliberations. I've written many times and with extreme disfavor on consideration of what I call "Dark and stormy night" stories as useful data for the design and fabrication of an electrical system. I'll suggest that most of those stories came about due to a lack of understanding on the part of pilots, manufacturers and bureaucrats as to what it takes to produce a reliable flight system. See chapter 17 of the AeroElectric Connection. Our easy-to-achieve goals for having airplanes that stand above the spam-cans is (1) design for failure tolerance and (2) take on the responsibility to learn how to use ANY chosen assembly technique effectively. There will ALWAYS be failures of one kind or another in ANY system. Yeah, you might even burn a soldered terminal off the end of a wire cause you didn't put it on right . . . but you might burn a crimped terminal off too for EXACTLY THE SAME REASON. >You mentioned $120.00 for a tool. To me that is not an >outrageous price. I'll look into them shortly. I suspect I >will need several. Perhaps you could recommend one. Not $120 per tool but the WHOLE SET of tools . . . see citations in list of rules above. >When I amuse my wife she becomes exuberant and happy. I hope >I have effected you in the same manner. If you consider that >no other document has been offered, except the 43-13, to answer >my specific question, I guess it accurately fits the description. >All I have seen are several multi page documents, although well >written, do not answer my original question regarding solder >in the vibrating arena. I've made the statement numerous times and will repeat it here. There is no significant difference in a properly soldered versus properly crimped joint on a wire. Crimping takes specialized tools and less skill; soldering uses very in-expensive tools and takes some practice. I cannot cite any reason for saying that one technique is better than the other with respect to service life in your airplane. > One of these days, I plan to do a "Layman's Guide to > the use of AC43-13 Electrical Section" . . . it's > going to be a big chore and I'm not looking forward to > it. >It would appear that it is a badly needed document. Having >been inundated with just about every "war story" and Uncle >Herbs snake oil remedy for proper wiring, I would personally >be relieved to have in my possession such a document. All >kidding aside, you should dedicate it to me. I represent the >many who don't know but will admit it. I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. This is the objection I have for the way the EXP-Bus was sold at OSH last time I was there. A guy behind the counter hands you this whippy assembly that looks really complicated . . . http://www.controlvision.com/pages/avionics_expbus.htm . . .and it only costs $300! You hold the thing in your hand an think, "Damn! I'd NEVER be able to figure out something like this," while the guy behind the counter tells you about all the whippy things it will do and how much "time" it will save. The question you don't know to ask and he doesn't offer is "Does this product offer the simplest, lowest parts count, equal or better performance result at the same or lower cost of ownership." My answer to that question is, "No, it does not." When you pick up an English language dictionary, one finds perhaps 100,000+ words contained therein of which most literate adults use less than two percent of the total. Yet I think we communicate very well. AC43-13 is a similar document. It's a real piece of work and LOOKS important because its got this whippy government agency seal on the cover. Like the EXP-Bus and the dictionary, there are a handful of core facts and features around which 95% of your system will be designed and built and I think I've touched on most of them above. > > It's precisely this sort of quest for comfort in > > traditional techniques and/or bureaucratic decision > > making that has brought certified aviation to the point > > it is today . . . > > > > |---------------------------------------------| > > | Independence, Kansas . . . your #1 source | > > | factory fresh, 50-year old airplanes. | > > |---------------------------------------------| > > >You have a valid point. I only wish my Long will be around >as long and respected as the veritable DC-3. No-biggie. Solar UV is going to rot the poor bugger to dust before any of your wiring falls apart. >Again, thanks for your time. I do feel honored that someone >of your stature has taken the time to try and straighten me >out and be a help. Another no-biggie. You've just fallen victim to a veritable blizzard of non-information that provides job-security for certain classes of worker citizens in other aviation venues. You're really better prepared than you think you are but pouring over a document that's 95% floobydust will only make the answers harder to find and understand. Put down your copy of AC43-13 and let's get started on your airplane. If questions come up along the way, you'll get better answers TAILORED to your situation off the list-servers than you'll get out of that document. By the way, my e-mail address at nuckolls@aeroelectric.com is going away in a few days. 95% of what arrives there is either spam or virus attacks. Use bob.nuckolls@cox.net instead. There's an e-mail generator on the website at http://aeroelectric.com/bob.nuckolls/ that will forward to the Cox account. I'm trying to avoid publishing my direct e-mail address on publicly accessed web pages to keep from getting picked up by so many spam-bots. Better yet, join the AeroElectric-List . . . Bob . . . ------------------************----------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:16 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Starting points redux At 10:23 AM 1/19/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Here's a reprint on a reply I crafted for a builder some years >ago dealing with some of the issues faced by a neophyte builder >in coming to grips with a new task . . . configure and fabricate >an aircraft electrical system. > >------------------****************------------------- > >At 05:44 PM 10/27/2002 -0500, you wrote > >>Thanks for your reply and I do appreciate the time you have >>spent. > > > > > My apologies folks. The links in this posting are > before the re-organization of the website that occurred > right after the message. > > Dump this one and I'll see if I can sit down later today > and fix the links for a re-posting of the piece. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:24 AM PST US From: "Larry E. James" Subject: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system Hello All, I've been lurking on this list for some time and come to the conclusion that I have little interest in diving into the electrical design and issues for my Rocket as deeply as is addressed here. My hat is off to all of you and I am very glad this forum exists as I truly believe you are accomplishing good things in advancing the technology for aircraft. But this subject makes my head hurt. I have lurked enough to form some opinions on what I would like incorporated into my aircraft. I am now looking for a more simple way of drawing this out so that I can "connect wire from point A to point B". Anyone have any ideas ?? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Assuming your Rocket is a simple VFR airplane i would choose the simplest of Bob's Aerolectric schematics and copy that. You really can't go wrong. If you have anything fancy like twin electronic ignitons or IFR then you need to be careful and make sure you have redundancy built into the design. But if you have two mags, mechanical fuel pump, radio,transponder. Then simply make sure you have a seperate circuit for each device that is fused appropriately. I would use the alternate feed method so that if you have to shut down the the master switch (in flight fire) you can at least call for help on the radio. Frank 7a IFR ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry E. James Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system Hello All, I've been lurking on this list for some time and come to the conclusion that I have little interest in diving into the electrical design and issues for my Rocket as deeply as is addressed here. My hat is off to all of you and I am very glad this forum exists as I truly believe you are accomplishing good things in advancing the technology for aircraft. But this subject makes my head hurt. I have lurked enough to form some opinions on what I would like incorporated into my aircraft. I am now looking for a more simple way of drawing this out so that I can "connect wire from point A to point B". Anyone have any ideas ?? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:07 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Starting points redux Thank you for this...Looking forward to the redux Bret Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:43 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: Starting points redux > > > At 10:23 AM 1/19/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >> >> >>Here's a reprint on a reply I crafted for a builder some years >>ago dealing with some of the issues faced by a neophyte builder >>in coming to grips with a new task . . . configure and fabricate >>an aircraft electrical system. >> >>------------------****************------------------- >> >>At 05:44 PM 10/27/2002 -0500, you wrote >> >>>Thanks for your reply and I do appreciate the time you have >>>spent. >> >> >> >> >> My apologies folks. The links in this posting are >> before the re-organization of the website that occurred >> right after the message. >> >> Dump this one and I'll see if I can sit down later today >> and fix the links for a re-posting of the piece. >> >> Bob . . . > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:18 AM PST US From: Michael Ice Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system Larry, less than a month ago I felt like you do right now, hopelessly lost. Buy the aeroelectric connection. Read this forum. For a simple electric system, follow the Z-11. It really isn't hard. Just figure out where your battery is on the drawing and in your airplane and start running one wire at a time. Make a copy of the Z-11 (drawing out of the aeroelectric book) and every time you run a wire color it in with a high lighter. When all the lines are done you have a working electrical system. Also, take a look at your copy of the drawing and figure out what switches you need and call up or web order from B&C or Stein. Or: you could just order Van's pre-made wire harness, but i bet before you get it installed you will take it up and use the wires to do the Z-11. I know because that is what I did. Don't sweat it, you can do it. Or just open up your wallet and hire someone to do it. Mike Ice RV-9, wiring, wiring, wiring ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry E. James" Subject: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system > Hello All, > I've been lurking on this list for some time and come to the > conclusion that > I have little interest in diving into the electrical design and > issues for > my Rocket as deeply as is addressed here. My hat is off to all of > you and I > am very glad this forum exists as I truly believe you are > accomplishing good > things in advancing the technology for aircraft. But this subject > makes my > head hurt. > I have lurked enough to form some opinions on what I would like > incorporatedinto my aircraft. I am now looking for a more simple > way of drawing this > out so that I can "connect wire from point A to point B". Anyone > have any > ideas ?? > > Larry E. James > Bellevue, WA > Harmon Rocket > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:39:14 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system On 19 Jan 2007, at 11:57, Larry E. James wrote: > Hello All, > I've been lurking on this list for some time and come to the > conclusion that I have little interest in diving into the > electrical design and issues for my Rocket as deeply as is > addressed here. My hat is off to all of you and I am very glad > this forum exists as I truly believe you are accomplishing good > things in advancing the technology for aircraft. But this subject > makes my head hurt. > I have lurked enough to form some opinions on what I would like > incorporated into my aircraft. I am now looking for a more simple > way of drawing this out so that I can "connect wire from point A to > point B". Anyone have any ideas ?? > I started my original electrical system schematics with pencil, paper and an eraser. A very big eraser. Select Bob's Z Drawing that matches your needs and draw it out, putting the wire size and wire ID on each wire. That takes care of the big picture, which gets power to each bus. Then, make a separate drawing for each system, starting at the bus, going to the fuse (or CB), then to the switch and then to the item(s) that need power in that system. While it is certainly possible to draw the schematics with pencil and paper, I found that I made too many mistakes, and you can only erase one area on the page so many times then you need to start over. So, I switched to a simple drawing program on my computer. I used AppleWorks on my Mac, but there are many other programs that will work on all modern operating systems. It isn't difficult, but it is time consuming. Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:47 AM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system Two things, Larry: 1. Get Bob Nuckolls' book, "The Aeroelectric Connection" and read it. Then, take a look at the various wiring diagrams included in the appendices and pick the one that best suits your aircraft. 2. Attend one of Bob's regional weekend seminars. This will solve most of your simple "how to" questions. The remainder can be asked here and you will get expert answers. Best Regards, Steve ____________________________________________________________________ On Jan 19, 2007, at 8:57 AM, Larry E. James wrote: > Hello All, > I've been lurking on this list for some time and come to the > conclusion that I have little interest in diving into the > electrical design and issues for my Rocket as deeply as is > addressed here. My hat is off to all of you and I am very glad > this forum exists as I truly believe you are accomplishing good > things in advancing the technology for aircraft. But this subject > makes my head hurt. > I have lurked enough to form some opinions on what I would like > incorporated into my aircraft. I am now looking for a more simple > way of drawing this out so that I can "connect wire from point A to > point B". Anyone have any ideas ?? > > Larry E. James > Bellevue, WA > Harmon Rocket > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:01 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: AeroElectric-List: inrush limiters for landing lights Bob- what's you latset thinking about using inline inrush current limiters for those of us with halogen 100w landing lights? I'll be using mine in wig-wag mode most of the time, and read your archived comments about filament cooling in half-second time frames. Will limiters help the life of my toggle switch enough to matter? I'm not using a relay for that load when in the constant-on mode. Thanks, -Bill B. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:54 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system BlankLarry, you can learn how to use one of the flowcharting/design tools on a computer and make your own design. I thought about that and realized every minute spent learning something like that would time away from flying. So, I bought Bob's book, made copies of the schematics supporting features I wanted and used some tape and scissors and made my own. I wired the plane and it all works. I am a retired banker and not an EE or mechanic. You can do it using Bob's schematics.. Indiana Larry with 175 hours RV7 ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry E. James To: AeroElectric-List@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:57 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: more direct method for designing electrical system Hello All, I've been lurking on this list for some time and come to the conclusion that I have little interest in diving into the electrical design and issues for my Rocket as deeply as is addressed here. My hat is off to all of you and I am very glad this forum exists as I truly believe you are accomplishing good things in advancing the technology for aircraft. But this subject makes my head hurt. I have lurked enough to form some opinions on what I would like incorporated into my aircraft. I am now looking for a more simple way of drawing this out so that I can "connect wire from point A to point B". Anyone have any ideas ?? Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:10 PM PST US From: "mwcreek@frontiernet.net" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Light Selection I'm about to purchase a strobe/nav/position light kit. Can anyone tell me if it is better to use an Aeroflash system with the two power supplys monted in each wing or say a Creative-Air kit with one power supply that runs sheilded cable the legth of the wing? Anyone have any comments on either manufatures product? Thanks, MIke C. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:10:03 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Light Selection Mike, I've got strobes and power packages in the tips of my wings. Don't know about reliability issues after 90 hours flight time and 4 years installed yet, but the idea of having a wing with more mass at the tips seems a good idea because of in flight convective. I was surprised at the stability of my HDS and the way it cuts through turbulence. Not at all like the C150 I used to fly. A convective day it would wear you out. The extra weight in the tips along with usual 6 or 8 gallons in the wing tanks might just be a factor. Larry McFarland at www.macsmachine.com mwcreek@frontiernet.net wrote: > > > I'm about to purchase a strobe/nav/position light kit. Can anyone tell > me if it is better to use an Aeroflash system with the two power > supplys monted in each wing or say a Creative-Air kit with one power > supply that runs sheilded cable the legth of the wing? > > Anyone have any comments on either manufatures product? > > Thanks, > MIke C. > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:29 PM PST US From: Vern Little Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: inrush limiters for landing lights Bill: I have some experience with this. The inrush limiters will save wear and tear on your switch, breaker and lamps. Cold lamps have very low resistance, and the inrush current can exceed the switch or breaker rating as well as thermally shock the lamp filaments. However, in wig-wag mode the lamps take longer to come up to full brightness. I modified my wig-wag flasher to increase the flash period (decrease the rate) so that the lamps will come on fully. This simply requires the replacement of a capacitor in the flasher, and it's readily availabe from Radio Shack. Just look at the value that's in there and double it to start with. Vern Little, 9A Bill Boyd wrote: > > Bob- > > what's you latset thinking about using inline inrush current limiters > for those of us with halogen 100w landing lights? I'll be using mine > in wig-wag mode most of the time, and read your archived comments > about filament cooling in half-second time frames. Will limiters help > the life of my toggle switch enough to matter? I'm not using a relay > for that load when in the constant-on mode. > > Thanks, > > -Bill B. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:29 PM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe Light Selection Hi Mike, I had Aeroflash wingtip PS in my Glastar, on one of them the main condenser failed, as they're custom made you need to get them swapped by the manufacturer 50$ ticket. Meanwhile I've a central PS with the set from GS-Air and I'm happy, the Aeroflash lasted about 100hrs, the GS-Air have over 150 on it by now. br Werner mwcreek@frontiernet.net wrote: > > > I'm about to purchase a strobe/nav/position light kit. Can anyone > tell me if it is better to use an Aeroflash system with the two > power supplys monted in each wing or say a Creative-Air kit with one > power supply that runs sheilded cable the legth of the wing? > > Anyone have any comments on either manufatures product? > > Thanks, > MIke C. > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:09 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: AeroElectric-List: Nav radios in certified aircraft Other than 91.171, are there are rules that specify any particular certifications that a Nav radio must have for use in IFR in certified aircraft? The VAL INS-422 appears to be a nice little package to provide an ILS capability in a single hole, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm missing something. 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