Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:41 AM - Re: Century 2000 autopilot harness (B Tomm)
2. 04:03 AM - attaching shielded wires (bob noffs)
3. 04:55 AM - Re: attaching shielded wires (Werner Schneider)
4. 06:00 AM - Re: IR alternators in aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: IR alternators in aircraft (Bill Boyd)
6. 08:12 AM - Re: Timer module (Carlos Trigo)
7. 08:12 AM - SD-8 Alternator Wiring (Valovich, Paul)
8. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Jack plug question (Miskelly, Francis G)
9. 09:12 AM - Re: Timer module (Carlos Trigo)
10. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Jack plug question (Miskelly, Francis G)
11. 09:41 AM - Re: alternators in aircraft (yes) OV module (no?) ()
12. 10:54 AM - Chronically low voltage (McFarland, Randy)
13. 11:37 AM - What's advantage of conductive fuel hose? ()
14. 12:21 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Matt Prather)
15. 12:28 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Doug Windhorn)
16. 01:17 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (McFarland, Randy)
17. 01:34 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (john@ballofshame.com)
18. 02:30 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
19. 04:09 PM - Richard Dudley sent you this eBay item: Relays 3PDT, 12Volt, new lot of 6 (eBay member)
20. 05:59 PM - Re: IR alternators in aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 07:21 PM - Re: Timer module (Peter Laurence)
22. 07:44 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 07:48 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 08:34 PM - Re: Timer module (Richard E. Tasker)
Message 1
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Subject: | Century 2000 autopilot harness |
Bob,
You may want to try the guys that make harnesses. Stark makes them for
non-certified (and possibly certified too). See
http://www.starkavionics.com/index.htm
Some others that also come to mind are:
http://www.steinair.com/orderinfo.htm
http://www.approachfaststack.com/ (but maybe only for their own hubs)
Bevan
RV7A finish kit
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Verwey
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:34 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Century 2000 autopilot harness
--> <bonanza@vodamail.co.za>
Fellow listers
I am looking for a 28v harness for a century 2000 autopilot. Any pointers as
to where I should look? This is for a non-certified application, so
paperwork is not necessary.
Thanks
Bob Verwey
A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW
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Subject: | attaching shielded wires |
hi bob, do you have any illustrated ''how to's'' on attaching shielded
wire? i want the shielding to attach also. this is for wiring two p.t.t.
switches to the radio.
thanks in advance, bob noffs
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: attaching shielded wires |
Have a look at this one
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/pigtail/pigtail.html>
if you mean about bundling them to one attach point you can use above
technique and a ring crimped on the end or as on some equipment
(GTX-330) you have a separate bus to end all the shields.
hope it helps
Werner
bob noffs wrote:
> hi bob, do you have any illustrated ''how to's'' on attaching
> shielded wire? i want the shielding to attach also. this is for wiring
> two p.t.t. switches to the radio.
> thanks in advance, bob noffs
> *
>
>
> *
Message 4
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Subject: | IR alternators in aircraft |
At 11:52 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><djweberlaw@mindspring.com>
>
>
>I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book.
When you say "wired per your book", I'm a bit lost. None
of my drawings speak to or even recommend the use of
an internally regulated alternator because I've yet
to identify any products that meet my design goals.
Figure Z-24 was an early attempt to cover two issues:
(1) control - offering the pilot the same or similar
level of control over the alternator as pilots have
enjoyed over generators and alternators since day-one
and (2) ov protection. However, we discovered that some
alternators would fatally kick themselves in the
where-it-hurts if disconnected from the rest of
the system while under load.
Hence, Z-24 was removed from the book and is
referenced only in the side-article cited here . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
The article cautions prospective users that Z-24 as
published has some risks . . . BUT ONLY TO THE ALTERNATOR's
REGULATOR and only if the alternator is turned off
under some conditions that can be easily avoided.
Z-24 as published DOES offer OV protection which is
a demonstrably good thing to do.
Z-24a speaks to hardware under development that
will slip into a Z-24 system with little additional
work. The new hardware is intended to meet ALL of
the design goals
>Can I use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems? Or,
>does someone else sell such a device?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>David Weber
Internally regulated alternators are a what-you-see-
is-what-you-get. If it is your desire to have these
marvelous-but-not-perfect devices operated within the
design goals we've been using for externally regulated
alternators then some form of external adaptation
is necessary necessary.
All of the parts shown in Z-24 are available from
B&C today. All of the parts shown in Z-24a will
be available this year. The LR3 from B&C is and
EXTERNAL regulator/ov-protection/lv-warning
crafted to meet historical design goals. It
cannot be used to overcome the deficiencies
identified in the present crop of IR alternators
without modifying the alternator to run with
an external regulator. B&C's products start out
life as IR alternators and are modified to become
ER alternators compatible with the LR3 and similar
external regulators.
So the short answer to your question is "no" the
LR3C is not useful for OV protection on any IR
alternator.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: IR alternators in aircraft |
Bob- do you hae any voltage magnitude details or damage reports from
the field with these failures of IR alternators, or any part numbers?
How high wre the excursions and did they fry anything (else)?
This seems like an alarmingly high failure rate, given the small # of
IR alternators likely to be flying in OBAM craft, and the almost nil
failure rate I always thought attended these regualtors in automotive
use. I wonder if there is anything specific to the aircraft
environment or application that is behind this. Heat? RPM?
Vibration? Pilot load mismanagement? Any common threads showing up
yet?
-Bill B
currently flying IR w/o OVP, pending your latest developments later this year.
On 1/24/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr@cox.net> wrote:
>
> At 11:52 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>
> ><djweberlaw@mindspring.com>
> >
> >
> >I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book.
>
> When you say "wired per your book", I'm a bit lost. None
> of my drawings speak to or even recommend the use of
> an internally regulated alternator because I've yet
> to identify any products that meet my design goals.
>
> Figure Z-24 was an early attempt to cover two issues:
> (1) control - offering the pilot the same or similar
> level of control over the alternator as pilots have
> enjoyed over generators and alternators since day-one
> and (2) ov protection. However, we discovered that some
> alternators would fatally kick themselves in the
> where-it-hurts if disconnected from the rest of
> the system while under load.
>
> Hence, Z-24 was removed from the book and is
> referenced only in the side-article cited here . . .
>
> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
>
> The article cautions prospective users that Z-24 as
> published has some risks . . . BUT ONLY TO THE ALTERNATOR's
> REGULATOR and only if the alternator is turned off
> under some conditions that can be easily avoided.
> Z-24 as published DOES offer OV protection which is
> a demonstrably good thing to do.
>
> Z-24a speaks to hardware under development that
> will slip into a Z-24 system with little additional
> work. The new hardware is intended to meet ALL of
> the design goals
>
>
> >Can I use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems? Or,
> >does someone else sell such a device?
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >
> >David Weber
>
> Internally regulated alternators are a what-you-see-
> is-what-you-get. If it is your desire to have these
> marvelous-but-not-perfect devices operated within the
> design goals we've been using for externally regulated
> alternators then some form of external adaptation
> is necessary necessary.
>
> All of the parts shown in Z-24 are available from
> B&C today. All of the parts shown in Z-24a will
> be available this year. The LR3 from B&C is and
> EXTERNAL regulator/ov-protection/lv-warning
> crafted to meet historical design goals. It
> cannot be used to overcome the deficiencies
> identified in the present crop of IR alternators
> without modifying the alternator to run with
> an external regulator. B&C's products start out
> life as IR alternators and are modified to become
> ER alternators compatible with the LR3 and similar
> external regulators.
>
> So the short answer to your question is "no" the
> LR3C is not useful for OV protection on any IR
> alternator.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
> ( what ever you do must be exercised )
> ( EVERY day . . . )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Timer module |
Peter
Very nice and very useful this site you indicated, with plenty of projects
to exercise your electronic circuit building skills.
Carlos
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Laurence" <PLaurence@the-beach.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:00 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Timer module
> <PLaurence@the-beach.net>
>
> Dave, Here's another way to skin this cat.
> Check out :
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html
>
> Peter
Message 7
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Subject: | SD-8 Alternator Wiring |
Bob,
I plan to use your Z-12 diagram as the basis of a 2-alternator, single
forward-mounted battery system in my RV-8A. I will have an endurance bus
with the AFS 3500, Garmin 496, SL30, Auto Pilot Mstr (TruTrak ADI Pilot
for back up attitude), Pitot Heat, Boost Pump, Pitch and Roll trim, and
one Cockpit Flood Light running on the SD-8, realizing that use of pitot
heat will eventually drain the battery. I am trying to understand the
differences in operating principles of the B&C L-60 and the SD-8,
particularly in the need for the 5 amp field circuit breaker. Does the
SD-8 need one?
Paul Valovich
N192NM Reserved
Message 8
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Subject: | RE: Jack plug question |
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wed 24/01/2007 05:40
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jack plug question
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:10 PM 1/22/2007 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob.
>
>The KX155 is 6 months old. This problem has been there from the
beginning.
>It came with harness pre-wired and i installed it. Sometimes i use a
>handheld (ICOM A20) wired into the a/c power supply and aerial and
there's
>some ignition noise but not a serious problem. Its just the panel
mounted
>KX155. The microphone jack interferes with the volume (even with the
>squelch turned off) and introduces interference
>Two possibles i thought of were
>1. The microphone socket may need an earth? The panel is fibreglass and
>the socket has 2 wires running into it but is not earthed to the
airframe
>2. Could the wires in the microphone socket be transposed?
>
>As the ICOM works OK that seems to exclude power supply or aerial
issues?
>
>Very grateful for your advice.
>
>Frank
If the push to talk circuit is active in your
microphone wiring, then the mic jack would need
two wires plus a ground. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
If your mic jack is intended to handle ONLY
microphone audio and PTT is handled with other
wiring, then only two wires would be required.
Do you have a schematic of the pre-wired harness?
Have you checked your harness against the diagram?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Timer module |
In the circuit design shown in
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html
>
the power source is indicated at 9 V.
Please forgive an electronics ignorant question, but what should be done to
connect this circuit to 12/14 V ?
Carlos
Message 10
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Subject: | RE: Jack plug question |
Many thanks Bob.
The schematic in your link shows the harness linking the radio to the
microphone jack is shielded. Not sure if mine is but will check.
I'm afraid i don't have a wiring diagram - they wouldn't give me one.
Contacted the technician who did the wiring harness several times and he
was vague about the need for a ground. Maybe he thought i had a metal
panel or maybe he didn't understand the wiring and was just doing as he
was told?
Think i'll install an earth on the microphone jack anyway. I presume it
won't do any harm and may solve the problem. Also check the shielding
Thanks again
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wed 24/01/2007 05:40
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jack plug question
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:10 PM 1/22/2007 +0000, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob.
>
>The KX155 is 6 months old. This problem has been there from the
beginning.
>It came with harness pre-wired and i installed it. Sometimes i use a
>handheld (ICOM A20) wired into the a/c power supply and aerial and
there's
>some ignition noise but not a serious problem. Its just the panel
mounted
>KX155. The microphone jack interferes with the volume (even with the
>squelch turned off) and introduces interference
>Two possibles i thought of were
>1. The microphone socket may need an earth? The panel is fibreglass and
>the socket has 2 wires running into it but is not earthed to the
airframe
>2. Could the wires in the microphone socket be transposed?
>
>As the ICOM works OK that seems to exclude power supply or aerial
issues?
>
>Very grateful for your advice.
>
>Frank
If the push to talk circuit is active in your
microphone wiring, then the mic jack would need
two wires plus a ground. See:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html
If your mic jack is intended to handle ONLY
microphone audio and PTT is handled with other
wiring, then only two wires would be required.
Do you have a schematic of the pre-wired harness?
Have you checked your harness against the diagram?
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | RE: alternators in aircraft (yes) OV module (no?) |
>From: "David Weber" <djweberlaw@mindspring.com>
>I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am
>wiring per your book. Can I use the LR3C from
>B&C to prevent OV problems? Or, does
>someone else sell such a device?
>Thanks, David Weber
Dave: You don't need anything. You DO not need
the LR3C (which is a voltage regulator for and
externally regulated alternator), nor do you need
Bob's OV protection add-on for internally
regulated alternators. Unlike Bob's OV protection
the Plane Power protection is included in and
incorporated inside the alternator. The little module
on the back monitors the voltage and will CUT
OFF POWER to the voltage regulator (which
removes power to the FIELD, rotor). That will
smoothly and safely shut down the alternator with
out any load dump. Bob's set up is external
to the alternator and requires you to put a large
relay to break or cut the output, ie B-lead. It does
not shut the alternator down it just disconnects it.
You have the best of the best, relax.
> From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>Over the past week or so I've become aware of
>two more incidents of uncontrolled OV
>conditions arising from the failure of internally
>regulated alternators.
Bob could you give any details? Since 14.3 volts to
14.5 volts is normal any thing over that is Over
Voltage. Are we talking 14.6 volts.
I respect that you demand repeatable test,
facts, proof and data. What happened? How
severe was this OV?
If it a typical OV anomaly or failure it was may
be 16 volts, max. What say you Bob?
When you throw out little info like that you
feed fear from ignorance from lack of info. It
severs no one except if you want to support
the contention that I-VR are infior or not
suitable for planes, which is not true of
course. I-VR have and outstanding reliability
rate and OV is not an issue. Unfortunately
Van was selling a crop of units from a dubious
supplier which created a reliability issue but
no major OV event. Again 1000's are sold
every year for aircraft use and Van's gets only
a small % back that they sell, and they sell a lot.
What are the details. I understand "I've
become aware", but if the OV was mild as
most are.
DO WE NEED TO HAVE OV MODULES ON
TOP OF I-VR? Especially for VFR planes.
As has been point out before most modern
electronics, avionics, even experimental "Glass"
and hand held GPS operate on 10-32 volts all
day and have 60 volt surge or spike protection.
>I've sent both folks copies of the original Z-24
>along with advance data on >the proposed
>AEC9004 IR Alternator Controller - >easily
>incorporated into an installed OV >protection
>system at a later date.
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
>
> The hardware is in hand to adapt our 3-phase
> alternator drive stand . . .
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand
Bob, looks good, but there is a product out already.
Not to steal you thunder but there is already an
existing OV module that will operate a BIG
Relay/Contactor for OV protection. It is by
perihelion-designs:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/lovm.htm
It looks like it does the same thing, open power to
the OV relay (contactor) if an OV is detected.
I appreciate Bob's effort to improve the "crow bar"
method. The new method is no longer a crow bar
and does not require a short to trip a circuit breaker.
That is good. The end result is still the same, OPEN
a big relay to cut the B-lead. I also appreciate the
disclaimer that disconnecting the alternator while
operating normally could damage it. Glad you
agree with Van and you owe him an appology for
calling him ignorant when he said the same thing.
My suggestion for all of those who fear OV, which
I think is way overblown, more than it should be,
consider the Plane Power Alternator.
Van's aircraft sells them or you can buy them
direct from Plane Power.
http://www.plane-power.com/
By the time you buy and alternator and add on OV
modules you will be better off, money, weight and
complexity with the Plane Power's unit. This company
takes the BEST possible NEW aftermarket parts
available (Nippon Denso) and modifies the fan for
proper CCW rotation, puts "aerospace" brushes on it for
low humidity operations. Of course it re-wires the
internal voltage regulators (power source) so it can be
OPENED or cut-off power with the miniature OV
module on the back. This was not easy but PP did it.
The plane-pwr OV module does a similar function as
Bob's and perihelion-designs, it cuts power at a set
voltage, but instead of a big relay is elegantly cuts
power INTO the alternator not out. It does not need a
big external relay and is all self contained. You don't
want another mechanical BIG RELAY in your system.
The module is a miniature of what Bob is proposing
and what perihelion-design is. The BIG difference
is Bob is trying to switch OFF, up to 60 amps and
at least 14.5 volts. The Plane power is dealing with
the FIELD which only draws at most 5 amps. Once
the field is cut off the alternator will produce no power.
Example: It's like stopping a car by letting off the
gas on a slight up-slope Vs. running full speed into
a wall. The cutting off the B-lead under full gallop
is the wall scenario. They both stop you but one
is going to leave a mark, ouch and may result in
sparks and flames.
Again OV with ND's has been shown to be rare
and mild. Van's aircraft has sold 100's a month
and there are 1000's out there on planes (not to
mention Millions of cars) and the problems are rare
and mild. So before you get excited and ADD stuff
onto your ND, consider the COST vs. GAIN. The
relay, wires, connectors add weight, cost and
maintenance issues. A nuisance trip will destroy
your alternator and Van's does not guarantee it.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
Message 12
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Subject: | Chronically low voltage |
I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end of
my electron understanding, so...
I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With
Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine
montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 volts
which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy
after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get
steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/-
amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very
well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing /
testing the avionics.
What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be
happening?
Randy
Message 13
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Subject: | What's advantage of conductive fuel hose? |
I am working on final plumbing of Europa / Rotax 914 fuel system.
The system is a plastic rotomolded fuel tank, mostly rubber automotive
5/16" fuel injector hose, 2 vane style electric fuel pumps.
I have plumbing completed to 2 Flowscan 201B fuel flow sensors (add flow
in, and subtract return to tank).
I want to use Aeroquip 666 to run from the 201B through firewall to the
fuel pressure regulator, and then from the fuel pressure regulator return,
through the firewall to the return 201B.
I read somewhere that the 666 hose has stainless braid on the outside,
Teflon hose on the inside and it is electrical conductive. Didn't think
much about it, I just assumed that they were talking about the braid.
After getting a sample of the hose, I see that they have the internal wall
of the hose coated with a black substance that is probably;y electrical
conductive.
2 Questions:
1) Why would you want the internal wall of a hose electrical conductive?
I read 43.13 and they really don't tell much as to why. If it is static
discharge, is that really important? There are plenty of cars on the road
with rubber fuel lines?
Perhaps for lightening strike??
If I use this hose in my system (approx 4 feet in and 4 feet out) am I
creating any problems? Aeroquip makes very close to the same hose for Auto
racing guys without the black conductive coating. You see this as a more
appropriate hose for my system/plane?
2) More of a concern I think is there is this thin black coating inside a
Teflon tube. If it begins to flake off, it could cause much problems.
Has anyone had any flaking problems?? I can easily see causing an upset to
this coating when installing hose ends.
Thx.
Ron Parigoris
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Chronically low voltage |
Hello Randy,
When you observe the problem, is the engine running and if so, at what
RPM? If it's at idle, this might be normal behavior. If the engine is
turned off, what you describe is normal.
If the battery has enough energy to start the engine fairly well, I'd
guess the battery isn't dragging the buss down - the battery is
essentially healthy though maybe having reduced capacity.
How did you deduce that the alternator is putting out "28 +/- amps"? It
seems theoretically possible that the internal regulator has a problem -
regulated voltage too low. Or maybe a diode in the rectifier has gone
bad.
Matt-
> <Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>
>
> I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end
> of
> my electron understanding, so...
>
> I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With
> Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine
> montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6
> volts
> which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy
> after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get
> steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/-
> amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very
> well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing /
> testing the avionics.
>
> What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be
> happening?
>
> Randy
>
>
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: Chronically low voltage |
Randy,
You left out a lot of info. Is your voltage reading with the engine
(alternator) running or not. IF the alternator is not running, why are you
concerned? Do you normally run those lights with the alternator off? While
running, your alternator should provide around 14v, so the battery does not
come into question until you approach/exceed the alternator output. With
the alternator running, do you have the same problem.
If this is with alternator off, why are your concerned about it? If you
were flying at night and lost the alternator, you would want to switch off
the lights anyway to preserve battery until you can make a field to land as
Bob has suggested many times.
But to your question. E=IR, or voltage = current times resistance. Look at
your circuits - they form a loop from the minus side of the battery to the
plus side. Lights, switches, connectors, connections, wire size, and the
battery itself are all possible points of resistance around the loop.
Check the battery first, with no load, by measuring the voltage at the
battery terminals; then turn on all your loads and repeat the reading - what
do you get? You can calculate the resistance of the battery by R=E/I. This
should be quite small, and should be available from battery performance
charts. Now you know the equivalent resistance of the battery. (Do you
know the load current, or just estimating?)
To calculate other resistances, measure from BAT ground to various points
along the circuit. The resistance can be determined by the delta-V between
the points. Compare the resistance in the wire to theoretical charts to see
if there is something going on there. There will be some resistance across
connectors/connections, but this should be almost none existent, but you can
check one side to the other.
If you really have a problem, this process should be able to identify where
it is at.
Regards, and good hunting,
Doug Windhorn
----- Original Message -----
From: "McFarland, Randy" <Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2007 10:52
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage
> <Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>
>
> I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end
> of
> my electron understanding, so...
>
> I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With
> Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine
> montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6
> volts
> which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy
> after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get
> steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/-
> amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very
> well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing /
> testing the avionics.
>
> What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be
> happening?
>
> Randy
>
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Chronically low voltage |
Sorry, the Lo V status occurs at cruise power and rpm.
The battery seems to start the engine ok, but I think with electronic
ignition it seems to start much easier than with only the Mag.
I have a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor that shows the current output of the
alternator. This is the 60amp Nippon Denso alternator that has gotten so
much discussion recently. My original 60a alternator failed witnin 20 hours
of operation, so this is a replacement alternator.
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Prather [mailto:mprather@spro.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage
Hello Randy,
When you observe the problem, is the engine running and if so, at what
RPM? If it's at idle, this might be normal behavior. If the engine is
turned off, what you describe is normal.
If the battery has enough energy to start the engine fairly well, I'd
guess the battery isn't dragging the buss down - the battery is
essentially healthy though maybe having reduced capacity.
How did you deduce that the alternator is putting out "28 +/- amps"? It
seems theoretically possible that the internal regulator has a problem -
regulated voltage too low. Or maybe a diode in the rectifier has gone
bad.
Matt-
> <Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>
>
> I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end
> of
> my electron understanding, so...
>
> I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With
> Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine
> montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6
> volts
> which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy
> after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get
> steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/-
> amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very
> well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing /
> testing the avionics.
>
> What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be
> happening?
>
> Randy
>
>
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Subject: | Chronically low voltage |
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the 12.4 to 12.6 volts isn't a
real reading. Your battery would practically never charge. Personally,
first thing I would do is whip out a VOM and sanity check the readings.
Maybe they're correct but it seems weird. At least rule that out first.
-John
www.ballofshame.com
> <Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>
> Sorry, the Lo V status occurs at cruise power and rpm.
> The battery seems to start the engine ok, but I think with electronic
> ignition it seems to start much easier than with only the Mag.
> I have a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor that shows the current output of the
> alternator. This is the 60amp Nippon Denso alternator that has gotten so
> much discussion recently. My original 60a alternator failed witnin 20
> hours
> of operation, so this is a replacement alternator.
> Randy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Prather [mailto:mprather@spro.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:18 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage
>
>
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Hello Randy,
>
> When you observe the problem, is the engine running and if so, at what
> RPM? If it's at idle, this might be normal behavior. If the engine is
> turned off, what you describe is normal.
>
> If the battery has enough energy to start the engine fairly well, I'd
> guess the battery isn't dragging the buss down - the battery is
> essentially healthy though maybe having reduced capacity.
>
> How did you deduce that the alternator is putting out "28 +/- amps"? It
> seems theoretically possible that the internal regulator has a problem -
> regulated voltage too low. Or maybe a diode in the rectifier has gone
> bad.
>
>
> Matt-
>
>> <Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>>
>>
>> I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end
>> of
>> my electron understanding, so...
>>
>> I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A.
>> With
>> Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine
>> montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6
>> volts
>> which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy
>> after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get
>> steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/-
>> amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery
>> very
>> well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing
>> /
>> testing the avionics.
>>
>> What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be
>> happening?
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Subject: | RE: Chronically low voltage |
Randy:
I note that you refer to both a low/over voltage module and a GRT Engine
Monitor in your previous posts. These seem somewhat redundant since the
EIS indicates voltage and warns you if you are under/over your designated
limits - no separate module is necessary. If the EIS is NOT warning of any
limit exceedance, perhaps something is screwy with the voltage module?
Perhaps Im not understanding this completely.
regards
Erich Weaver
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Subject: | Richard Dudley sent you this eBay item: Relays 3PDT, |
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Message 20
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Subject: | Re: IR alternators in aircraft |
At 10:01 AM 1/24/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Bob- do you hae any voltage magnitude details or damage reports from
>the field with these failures of IR alternators, or any part numbers?
>How high wre the excursions and did they fry anything (else)?
I think the detailed examinations as to part numbers
and sources for the alternators is unlikely to be
productive.
>This seems like an alarmingly high failure rate, given the small # of
>IR alternators likely to be flying in OBAM craft, and the almost nil
>failure rate I always thought attended these regualtors in automotive
>use. I wonder if there is anything specific to the aircraft
>environment or application that is behind this. Heat? RPM?
>Vibration? Pilot load mismanagement? Any common threads showing up
>yet?
Typical of nearly ALL such events, we'll never have the
kind of data we need to deduce root cause or even
support or refute your suggestion as to whether
the failure rate is alarmingly high. It's been
perhaps 6-8 months since we heard of one here
on the List. Two in a few weeks is not necessarily
'alarming' unless we get two more next week.
But even then, I'll bet there are thousands
of IR alternators flying but with totally
unknown pedigrees.
Further, I have to recognize that I occupy a position
much the same as physicians who have been accused of
having a jaundiced view of the human condition because
they only see and work with sick people all day.
In the same vein of thought, I hear very few folks talk
about how well their systems have worked for years . . .
but if a system has a problem of any kind, I'm likely to
hear much more about that.
Therefore, I suggest we forego any investigations,
discussions AND worries in and attempt to put analog
calibrations on essentially digital data. We KNOW
there are examples of failures of these alternators. We
KNOW there are examples of failures in externally
regulated alternators too. The prudent approach is to
ASSUME that the risk of failure for either technology
is not zero and design to tolerate it. I prefer this
over to hoping that beliefs we hold about reliability
are not well founded and being doubly disappointed when
someone gets $high$ smoke in the cockpit.
I've already identified a goal to have absolute,
anytime, any conditions, zero risks control of the
IR alternator. Achieving this design goal is 95%
of the cost of the hardware. To add OV protection
on top is only a few lines of code in a micro-
controller that already exists to manage the
control task. Further, adding the OV protection
feature goes directly to the idea of failure
tolerant design.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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Carlos,
Here is one way of regulating the 9 volts. See:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/ps-lm317.html
Peter
In the circuit design shown in
>
> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html
>
the power source is indicated at 9 V.
Please forgive an electronics ignorant question, but what should be done to
connect this circuit to 12/14 V ?
Carlos
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Subject: | Re: Chronically low voltage |
At 10:52 AM 1/24/2007 -0800, you wrote:
><Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>
>
>I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end of
>my electron understanding, so...
>
>I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With
>Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine
>montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 volts
>which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy
>after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get
>steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/-
>amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very
>well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing /
>testing the avionics.
>
>What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be
>happening?
What architecture are you using? How do you measure alternator
output amps? With voltage readings like that, it sounds like
the alternator is not even coming on line. It the alternator is
working, 14.2 to 14.6 is more normal.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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Subject: | Chronically low voltage |
At 01:16 PM 1/24/2007 -0800, you wrote:
><Randy.McFarland@novellus.com>
>
>Sorry, the Lo V status occurs at cruise power and rpm.
>The battery seems to start the engine ok, but I think with electronic
>ignition it seems to start much easier than with only the Mag.
>I have a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor that shows the current output of the
>alternator. This is the 60amp Nippon Denso alternator that has gotten so
>much discussion recently. My original 60a alternator failed witnin 20 hours
>of operation, so this is a replacement alternator.
>Randy
Put a battery maintainer or other smart charger on
the battery and wait until its green light comes on
stating that the battery is fully charged.
Start the engine but leave EVERYTHING electrical
turned off except battery and alternator. The engine
monitor should IMMEDIATELY show 14.2 or more volts
and alternator output current should peak up but
come down pretty quickly . . . probably under 10
amps in a minute or so.
If you don't have 14 volts but do have some measurable
output current, the alternator is bad.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Timer module |
Probably nothing. The LMC555 is rated to 15V. The characteristic of
the 555 series is that the timing is relatively insensitive to the
supply voltage. If you run it from 12-14V you will have to choose a
relay that is rated at more than the 6V the schematic shows and has a
resistance of 1000 ohms or more. Depending on what you want to control
with the relay, you could also use an NPN transistor or FET to control
the load in place of the relay.
The only weakness in the circuit shown is that if you get transients on
your aircraft voltage you might destroy the LMC555 - depends on the
length and voltage of the transient. You could mitigate this problem
with a small series resistor and filter capacitor to ground. If you
want it to be bulletproof a zener in parallel with the capacitor would
do it.
I know this might be too much for you to absorb :-) . If you have
other questions, please feel free to ask.
Dick
Carlos Trigo wrote:
> <trigo@mail.telepac.pt>
>
> In the circuit design shown in
>
>>
>> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html
>>
>
> the power source is indicated at 9 V.
> Please forgive an electronics ignorant question, but what should be
> done to connect this circuit to 12/14 V ?
>
> Carlos
>
>
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