---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/24/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:41 AM - Re: Century 2000 autopilot harness (B Tomm) 2. 04:03 AM - attaching shielded wires (bob noffs) 3. 04:55 AM - Re: attaching shielded wires (Werner Schneider) 4. 06:00 AM - Re: IR alternators in aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:03 AM - Re: IR alternators in aircraft (Bill Boyd) 6. 08:12 AM - Re: Timer module (Carlos Trigo) 7. 08:12 AM - SD-8 Alternator Wiring (Valovich, Paul) 8. 09:04 AM - Re: Re: Jack plug question (Miskelly, Francis G) 9. 09:12 AM - Re: Timer module (Carlos Trigo) 10. 09:18 AM - Re: Re: Jack plug question (Miskelly, Francis G) 11. 09:41 AM - Re: alternators in aircraft (yes) OV module (no?) () 12. 10:54 AM - Chronically low voltage (McFarland, Randy) 13. 11:37 AM - What's advantage of conductive fuel hose? () 14. 12:21 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Matt Prather) 15. 12:28 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Doug Windhorn) 16. 01:17 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (McFarland, Randy) 17. 01:34 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (john@ballofshame.com) 18. 02:30 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 19. 04:09 PM - Richard Dudley sent you this eBay item: Relays 3PDT, 12Volt, new lot of 6 (eBay member) 20. 05:59 PM - Re: IR alternators in aircraft (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 07:21 PM - Re: Timer module (Peter Laurence) 22. 07:44 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 07:48 PM - Re: Chronically low voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:34 PM - Re: Timer module (Richard E. Tasker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:43 AM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Century 2000 autopilot harness Bob, You may want to try the guys that make harnesses. Stark makes them for non-certified (and possibly certified too). See http://www.starkavionics.com/index.htm Some others that also come to mind are: http://www.steinair.com/orderinfo.htm http://www.approachfaststack.com/ (but maybe only for their own hubs) Bevan RV7A finish kit -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Verwey Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:34 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Century 2000 autopilot harness --> Fellow listers I am looking for a 28v harness for a century 2000 autopilot. Any pointers as to where I should look? This is for a non-certified application, so paperwork is not necessary. Thanks Bob Verwey A35 Bonanza ZU-DLW ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:42 AM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: attaching shielded wires hi bob, do you have any illustrated ''how to's'' on attaching shielded wire? i want the shielding to attach also. this is for wiring two p.t.t. switches to the radio. thanks in advance, bob noffs ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:40 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: attaching shielded wires Have a look at this one if you mean about bundling them to one attach point you can use above technique and a ring crimped on the end or as on some equipment (GTX-330) you have a separate bus to end all the shields. hope it helps Werner bob noffs wrote: > hi bob, do you have any illustrated ''how to's'' on attaching > shielded wire? i want the shielding to attach also. this is for wiring > two p.t.t. switches to the radio. > thanks in advance, bob noffs > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: IR alternators in aircraft At 11:52 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > > >I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book. When you say "wired per your book", I'm a bit lost. None of my drawings speak to or even recommend the use of an internally regulated alternator because I've yet to identify any products that meet my design goals. Figure Z-24 was an early attempt to cover two issues: (1) control - offering the pilot the same or similar level of control over the alternator as pilots have enjoyed over generators and alternators since day-one and (2) ov protection. However, we discovered that some alternators would fatally kick themselves in the where-it-hurts if disconnected from the rest of the system while under load. Hence, Z-24 was removed from the book and is referenced only in the side-article cited here . . . http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf The article cautions prospective users that Z-24 as published has some risks . . . BUT ONLY TO THE ALTERNATOR's REGULATOR and only if the alternator is turned off under some conditions that can be easily avoided. Z-24 as published DOES offer OV protection which is a demonstrably good thing to do. Z-24a speaks to hardware under development that will slip into a Z-24 system with little additional work. The new hardware is intended to meet ALL of the design goals >Can I use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems? Or, >does someone else sell such a device? > >Thanks > > >David Weber Internally regulated alternators are a what-you-see- is-what-you-get. If it is your desire to have these marvelous-but-not-perfect devices operated within the design goals we've been using for externally regulated alternators then some form of external adaptation is necessary necessary. All of the parts shown in Z-24 are available from B&C today. All of the parts shown in Z-24a will be available this year. The LR3 from B&C is and EXTERNAL regulator/ov-protection/lv-warning crafted to meet historical design goals. It cannot be used to overcome the deficiencies identified in the present crop of IR alternators without modifying the alternator to run with an external regulator. B&C's products start out life as IR alternators and are modified to become ER alternators compatible with the LR3 and similar external regulators. So the short answer to your question is "no" the LR3C is not useful for OV protection on any IR alternator. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:02 AM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: IR alternators in aircraft Bob- do you hae any voltage magnitude details or damage reports from the field with these failures of IR alternators, or any part numbers? How high wre the excursions and did they fry anything (else)? This seems like an alarmingly high failure rate, given the small # of IR alternators likely to be flying in OBAM craft, and the almost nil failure rate I always thought attended these regualtors in automotive use. I wonder if there is anything specific to the aircraft environment or application that is behind this. Heat? RPM? Vibration? Pilot load mismanagement? Any common threads showing up yet? -Bill B currently flying IR w/o OVP, pending your latest developments later this year. On 1/24/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 11:52 PM 1/23/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am wiring per your book. > > When you say "wired per your book", I'm a bit lost. None > of my drawings speak to or even recommend the use of > an internally regulated alternator because I've yet > to identify any products that meet my design goals. > > Figure Z-24 was an early attempt to cover two issues: > (1) control - offering the pilot the same or similar > level of control over the alternator as pilots have > enjoyed over generators and alternators since day-one > and (2) ov protection. However, we discovered that some > alternators would fatally kick themselves in the > where-it-hurts if disconnected from the rest of > the system while under load. > > Hence, Z-24 was removed from the book and is > referenced only in the side-article cited here . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf > > The article cautions prospective users that Z-24 as > published has some risks . . . BUT ONLY TO THE ALTERNATOR's > REGULATOR and only if the alternator is turned off > under some conditions that can be easily avoided. > Z-24 as published DOES offer OV protection which is > a demonstrably good thing to do. > > Z-24a speaks to hardware under development that > will slip into a Z-24 system with little additional > work. The new hardware is intended to meet ALL of > the design goals > > > >Can I use the LR3C from B&C to prevent OV problems? Or, > >does someone else sell such a device? > > > >Thanks > > > > > >David Weber > > Internally regulated alternators are a what-you-see- > is-what-you-get. If it is your desire to have these > marvelous-but-not-perfect devices operated within the > design goals we've been using for externally regulated > alternators then some form of external adaptation > is necessary necessary. > > All of the parts shown in Z-24 are available from > B&C today. All of the parts shown in Z-24a will > be available this year. The LR3 from B&C is and > EXTERNAL regulator/ov-protection/lv-warning > crafted to meet historical design goals. It > cannot be used to overcome the deficiencies > identified in the present crop of IR alternators > without modifying the alternator to run with > an external regulator. B&C's products start out > life as IR alternators and are modified to become > ER alternators compatible with the LR3 and similar > external regulators. > > So the short answer to your question is "no" the > LR3C is not useful for OV protection on any IR > alternator. > > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) > ( what ever you do must be exercised ) > ( EVERY day . . . ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:21 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Timer module Peter Very nice and very useful this site you indicated, with plenty of projects to exercise your electronic circuit building skills. Carlos Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Laurence" Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Timer module > > > Dave, Here's another way to skin this cat. > Check out : > > http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html > > Peter ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 Alternator Wiring From: "Valovich, Paul" Bob, I plan to use your Z-12 diagram as the basis of a 2-alternator, single forward-mounted battery system in my RV-8A. I will have an endurance bus with the AFS 3500, Garmin 496, SL30, Auto Pilot Mstr (TruTrak ADI Pilot for back up attitude), Pitot Heat, Boost Pump, Pitch and Roll trim, and one Cockpit Flood Light running on the SD-8, realizing that use of pitot heat will eventually drain the battery. I am trying to understand the differences in operating principles of the B&C L-60 and the SD-8, particularly in the need for the 5 amp field circuit breaker. Does the SD-8 need one? Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jack plug question From: "Miskelly, Francis G" ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wed 24/01/2007 05:40 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jack plug question At 03:10 PM 1/22/2007 +0000, you wrote: >Thanks Bob. > >The KX155 is 6 months old. This problem has been there from the beginning. >It came with harness pre-wired and i installed it. Sometimes i use a >handheld (ICOM A20) wired into the a/c power supply and aerial and there's >some ignition noise but not a serious problem. Its just the panel mounted >KX155. The microphone jack interferes with the volume (even with the >squelch turned off) and introduces interference >Two possibles i thought of were >1. The microphone socket may need an earth? The panel is fibreglass and >the socket has 2 wires running into it but is not earthed to the airframe >2. Could the wires in the microphone socket be transposed? > >As the ICOM works OK that seems to exclude power supply or aerial issues? > >Very grateful for your advice. > >Frank If the push to talk circuit is active in your microphone wiring, then the mic jack would need two wires plus a ground. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html If your mic jack is intended to handle ONLY microphone audio and PTT is handled with other wiring, then only two wires would be required. Do you have a schematic of the pre-wired harness? Have you checked your harness against the diagram? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:36 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Timer module In the circuit design shown in > > http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html > the power source is indicated at 9 V. Please forgive an electronics ignorant question, but what should be done to connect this circuit to 12/14 V ? Carlos ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:54 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jack plug question From: "Miskelly, Francis G" Many thanks Bob. The schematic in your link shows the harness linking the radio to the microphone jack is shielded. Not sure if mine is but will check. I'm afraid i don't have a wiring diagram - they wouldn't give me one. Contacted the technician who did the wiring harness several times and he was vague about the need for a ground. Maybe he thought i had a metal panel or maybe he didn't understand the wiring and was just doing as he was told? Think i'll install an earth on the microphone jack anyway. I presume it won't do any harm and may solve the problem. Also check the shielding Thanks again Frank ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wed 24/01/2007 05:40 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Jack plug question At 03:10 PM 1/22/2007 +0000, you wrote: >Thanks Bob. > >The KX155 is 6 months old. This problem has been there from the beginning. >It came with harness pre-wired and i installed it. Sometimes i use a >handheld (ICOM A20) wired into the a/c power supply and aerial and there's >some ignition noise but not a serious problem. Its just the panel mounted >KX155. The microphone jack interferes with the volume (even with the >squelch turned off) and introduces interference >Two possibles i thought of were >1. The microphone socket may need an earth? The panel is fibreglass and >the socket has 2 wires running into it but is not earthed to the airframe >2. Could the wires in the microphone socket be transposed? > >As the ICOM works OK that seems to exclude power supply or aerial issues? > >Very grateful for your advice. > >Frank If the push to talk circuit is active in your microphone wiring, then the mic jack would need two wires plus a ground. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html If your mic jack is intended to handle ONLY microphone audio and PTT is handled with other wiring, then only two wires would be required. Do you have a schematic of the pre-wired harness? Have you checked your harness against the diagram? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:27 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternators in aircraft (yes) OV module (no?) >From: "David Weber" >I have a IR ALT from Plane Power (14v) and am >wiring per your book. Can I use the LR3C from >B&C to prevent OV problems? Or, does >someone else sell such a device? >Thanks, David Weber Dave: You don't need anything. You DO not need the LR3C (which is a voltage regulator for and externally regulated alternator), nor do you need Bob's OV protection add-on for internally regulated alternators. Unlike Bob's OV protection the Plane Power protection is included in and incorporated inside the alternator. The little module on the back monitors the voltage and will CUT OFF POWER to the voltage regulator (which removes power to the FIELD, rotor). That will smoothly and safely shut down the alternator with out any load dump. Bob's set up is external to the alternator and requires you to put a large relay to break or cut the output, ie B-lead. It does not shut the alternator down it just disconnects it. You have the best of the best, relax. > From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III > >Over the past week or so I've become aware of >two more incidents of uncontrolled OV >conditions arising from the failure of internally >regulated alternators. Bob could you give any details? Since 14.3 volts to 14.5 volts is normal any thing over that is Over Voltage. Are we talking 14.6 volts. I respect that you demand repeatable test, facts, proof and data. What happened? How severe was this OV? If it a typical OV anomaly or failure it was may be 16 volts, max. What say you Bob? When you throw out little info like that you feed fear from ignorance from lack of info. It severs no one except if you want to support the contention that I-VR are infior or not suitable for planes, which is not true of course. I-VR have and outstanding reliability rate and OV is not an issue. Unfortunately Van was selling a crop of units from a dubious supplier which created a reliability issue but no major OV event. Again 1000's are sold every year for aircraft use and Van's gets only a small % back that they sell, and they sell a lot. What are the details. I understand "I've become aware", but if the OV was mild as most are. DO WE NEED TO HAVE OV MODULES ON TOP OF I-VR? Especially for VFR planes. As has been point out before most modern electronics, avionics, even experimental "Glass" and hand held GPS operate on 10-32 volts all day and have 60 volt surge or spike protection. >I've sent both folks copies of the original Z-24 >along with advance data on >the proposed >AEC9004 IR Alternator Controller - >easily >incorporated into an installed OV >protection >system at a later date. > >http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf > > The hardware is in hand to adapt our 3-phase > alternator drive stand . . . > >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Alternator_Test_Stand Bob, looks good, but there is a product out already. Not to steal you thunder but there is already an existing OV module that will operate a BIG Relay/Contactor for OV protection. It is by perihelion-designs: http://www.periheliondesign.com/lovm.htm It looks like it does the same thing, open power to the OV relay (contactor) if an OV is detected. I appreciate Bob's effort to improve the "crow bar" method. The new method is no longer a crow bar and does not require a short to trip a circuit breaker. That is good. The end result is still the same, OPEN a big relay to cut the B-lead. I also appreciate the disclaimer that disconnecting the alternator while operating normally could damage it. Glad you agree with Van and you owe him an appology for calling him ignorant when he said the same thing. My suggestion for all of those who fear OV, which I think is way overblown, more than it should be, consider the Plane Power Alternator. Van's aircraft sells them or you can buy them direct from Plane Power. http://www.plane-power.com/ By the time you buy and alternator and add on OV modules you will be better off, money, weight and complexity with the Plane Power's unit. This company takes the BEST possible NEW aftermarket parts available (Nippon Denso) and modifies the fan for proper CCW rotation, puts "aerospace" brushes on it for low humidity operations. Of course it re-wires the internal voltage regulators (power source) so it can be OPENED or cut-off power with the miniature OV module on the back. This was not easy but PP did it. The plane-pwr OV module does a similar function as Bob's and perihelion-designs, it cuts power at a set voltage, but instead of a big relay is elegantly cuts power INTO the alternator not out. It does not need a big external relay and is all self contained. You don't want another mechanical BIG RELAY in your system. The module is a miniature of what Bob is proposing and what perihelion-design is. The BIG difference is Bob is trying to switch OFF, up to 60 amps and at least 14.5 volts. The Plane power is dealing with the FIELD which only draws at most 5 amps. Once the field is cut off the alternator will produce no power. Example: It's like stopping a car by letting off the gas on a slight up-slope Vs. running full speed into a wall. The cutting off the B-lead under full gallop is the wall scenario. They both stop you but one is going to leave a mark, ouch and may result in sparks and flames. Again OV with ND's has been shown to be rare and mild. Van's aircraft has sold 100's a month and there are 1000's out there on planes (not to mention Millions of cars) and the problems are rare and mild. So before you get excited and ADD stuff onto your ND, consider the COST vs. GAIN. The relay, wires, connectors add weight, cost and maintenance issues. A nuisance trip will destroy your alternator and Van's does not guarantee it. Cheers George --------------------------------- Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:52 AM PST US From: "McFarland, Randy" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end of my electron understanding, so... I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 volts which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/- amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing / testing the avionics. What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be happening? Randy ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: What's advantage of conductive fuel hose? From: I am working on final plumbing of Europa / Rotax 914 fuel system. The system is a plastic rotomolded fuel tank, mostly rubber automotive 5/16" fuel injector hose, 2 vane style electric fuel pumps. I have plumbing completed to 2 Flowscan 201B fuel flow sensors (add flow in, and subtract return to tank). I want to use Aeroquip 666 to run from the 201B through firewall to the fuel pressure regulator, and then from the fuel pressure regulator return, through the firewall to the return 201B. I read somewhere that the 666 hose has stainless braid on the outside, Teflon hose on the inside and it is electrical conductive. Didn't think much about it, I just assumed that they were talking about the braid. After getting a sample of the hose, I see that they have the internal wall of the hose coated with a black substance that is probably;y electrical conductive. 2 Questions: 1) Why would you want the internal wall of a hose electrical conductive? I read 43.13 and they really don't tell much as to why. If it is static discharge, is that really important? There are plenty of cars on the road with rubber fuel lines? Perhaps for lightening strike?? If I use this hose in my system (approx 4 feet in and 4 feet out) am I creating any problems? Aeroquip makes very close to the same hose for Auto racing guys without the black conductive coating. You see this as a more appropriate hose for my system/plane? 2) More of a concern I think is there is this thin black coating inside a Teflon tube. If it begins to flake off, it could cause much problems. Has anyone had any flaking problems?? I can easily see causing an upset to this coating when installing hose ends. Thx. Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage From: "Matt Prather" Hello Randy, When you observe the problem, is the engine running and if so, at what RPM? If it's at idle, this might be normal behavior. If the engine is turned off, what you describe is normal. If the battery has enough energy to start the engine fairly well, I'd guess the battery isn't dragging the buss down - the battery is essentially healthy though maybe having reduced capacity. How did you deduce that the alternator is putting out "28 +/- amps"? It seems theoretically possible that the internal regulator has a problem - regulated voltage too low. Or maybe a diode in the rectifier has gone bad. Matt- > > > > I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end > of > my electron understanding, so... > > I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With > Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine > montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 > volts > which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy > after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get > steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/- > amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very > well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing / > testing the avionics. > > What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be > happening? > > Randy > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:28:30 PM PST US From: "Doug Windhorn" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage Randy, You left out a lot of info. Is your voltage reading with the engine (alternator) running or not. IF the alternator is not running, why are you concerned? Do you normally run those lights with the alternator off? While running, your alternator should provide around 14v, so the battery does not come into question until you approach/exceed the alternator output. With the alternator running, do you have the same problem. If this is with alternator off, why are your concerned about it? If you were flying at night and lost the alternator, you would want to switch off the lights anyway to preserve battery until you can make a field to land as Bob has suggested many times. But to your question. E=IR, or voltage = current times resistance. Look at your circuits - they form a loop from the minus side of the battery to the plus side. Lights, switches, connectors, connections, wire size, and the battery itself are all possible points of resistance around the loop. Check the battery first, with no load, by measuring the voltage at the battery terminals; then turn on all your loads and repeat the reading - what do you get? You can calculate the resistance of the battery by R=E/I. This should be quite small, and should be available from battery performance charts. Now you know the equivalent resistance of the battery. (Do you know the load current, or just estimating?) To calculate other resistances, measure from BAT ground to various points along the circuit. The resistance can be determined by the delta-V between the points. Compare the resistance in the wire to theoretical charts to see if there is something going on there. There will be some resistance across connectors/connections, but this should be almost none existent, but you can check one side to the other. If you really have a problem, this process should be able to identify where it is at. Regards, and good hunting, Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "McFarland, Randy" Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2007 10:52 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage > > > > I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end > of > my electron understanding, so... > > I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With > Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine > montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 > volts > which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy > after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get > steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/- > amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very > well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing / > testing the avionics. > > What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be > happening? > > Randy > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:28 PM PST US From: "McFarland, Randy" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage Sorry, the Lo V status occurs at cruise power and rpm. The battery seems to start the engine ok, but I think with electronic ignition it seems to start much easier than with only the Mag. I have a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor that shows the current output of the alternator. This is the 60amp Nippon Denso alternator that has gotten so much discussion recently. My original 60a alternator failed witnin 20 hours of operation, so this is a replacement alternator. Randy -----Original Message----- From: Matt Prather [mailto:mprather@spro.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage Hello Randy, When you observe the problem, is the engine running and if so, at what RPM? If it's at idle, this might be normal behavior. If the engine is turned off, what you describe is normal. If the battery has enough energy to start the engine fairly well, I'd guess the battery isn't dragging the buss down - the battery is essentially healthy though maybe having reduced capacity. How did you deduce that the alternator is putting out "28 +/- amps"? It seems theoretically possible that the internal regulator has a problem - regulated voltage too low. Or maybe a diode in the rectifier has gone bad. Matt- > > > > I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end > of > my electron understanding, so... > > I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With > Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine > montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 > volts > which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy > after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get > steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/- > amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very > well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing / > testing the avionics. > > What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be > happening? > > Randy > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:10 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage From: john@ballofshame.com I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the 12.4 to 12.6 volts isn't a real reading. Your battery would practically never charge. Personally, first thing I would do is whip out a VOM and sanity check the readings. Maybe they're correct but it seems weird. At least rule that out first. -John www.ballofshame.com > > > Sorry, the Lo V status occurs at cruise power and rpm. > The battery seems to start the engine ok, but I think with electronic > ignition it seems to start much easier than with only the Mag. > I have a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor that shows the current output of the > alternator. This is the 60amp Nippon Denso alternator that has gotten so > much discussion recently. My original 60a alternator failed witnin 20 > hours > of operation, so this is a replacement alternator. > Randy > > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Prather [mailto:mprather@spro.net] > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 12:18 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage > > > > > Hello Randy, > > When you observe the problem, is the engine running and if so, at what > RPM? If it's at idle, this might be normal behavior. If the engine is > turned off, what you describe is normal. > > If the battery has enough energy to start the engine fairly well, I'd > guess the battery isn't dragging the buss down - the battery is > essentially healthy though maybe having reduced capacity. > > How did you deduce that the alternator is putting out "28 +/- amps"? It > seems theoretically possible that the internal regulator has a problem - > regulated voltage too low. Or maybe a diode in the rectifier has gone > bad. > > > Matt- > >> >> >> >> I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end >> of >> my electron understanding, so... >> >> I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. >> With >> Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine >> montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 >> volts >> which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy >> after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get >> steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/- >> amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery >> very >> well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing >> / >> testing the avionics. >> >> What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be >> happening? >> >> Randy >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:19 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Chronically low voltage From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com Randy: I note that you refer to both a low/over voltage module and a GRT Engine Monitor in your previous posts. These seem somewhat redundant since the EIS indicates voltage and warns you if you are under/over your designated limits - no separate module is necessary. If the EIS is NOT warning of any limit exceedance, perhaps something is screwy with the voltage module? Perhaps Im not understanding this completely. regards Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:20 PM PST US From: "eBay member: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Richard Dudley sent you this eBay item: Relays 3PDT, 12Volt, new lot of 6 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Dudley sent you this eBay item. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Listers, I saw this item on eBay and thought you might be interested. RHDudley Item Name: Relays 3PDT, 12Volt, new lot of 6 Current bid: US $5.00 (0 bids) Shipping: View Item to Calculate End date: Jan-21-07 16:20:19 PST ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find out more - View this Item http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290074979868&ssPageNam e=ADME:B:EF:US:11 ----------------------------------------------------------------- To add to your watch list, click: http://cgi1.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Mak eTrack&item=290074979868&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:3 See similar items at: http://search.ebay.com/Relays-3PDT-12Volt-new-lot-of- 6_W0QQsacatZ78205QQssPageNameZADME-B-EF-US-4 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Details for item number: 290074979868 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Item URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290074979868 &ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:11 Description: 3PDT, 12 Volt, new relays, lot of 6 (six). Your bid is for the whole lot of six. Ships to: N. and S. America Seller: flor331(13) 100% Positive Feedback Member since May-05-06 in United States ----------------------------------------------------------------- Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at: http://pages.ebay.com/education/spooftutorial This email was generated by the sender through the eBay platform because the sender thinks you are likely to be interested in this item. eBay takes no liability for the sending of this email and its content. If you did not authorize the sender to send you this email, you can report this message as unsolicited (spam) email so that eBay can take appropriate action against the sender. For more information, go to: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-ov.html. Please note that it may take up to 10 days to process your request. See our Privacy Policy and User Agreement if you have questions about eBay's communication policies. Privacy Policy: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/privacy-policy.html User Agreement: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html Copyright =A9 2006 eBay, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owner s. eBay and the eBay logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of eBay, Inc . eBay is located at 2145 Hamilton Avenue, San Jose, CA 95125. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: IR alternators in aircraft At 10:01 AM 1/24/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Bob- do you hae any voltage magnitude details or damage reports from >the field with these failures of IR alternators, or any part numbers? >How high wre the excursions and did they fry anything (else)? I think the detailed examinations as to part numbers and sources for the alternators is unlikely to be productive. >This seems like an alarmingly high failure rate, given the small # of >IR alternators likely to be flying in OBAM craft, and the almost nil >failure rate I always thought attended these regualtors in automotive >use. I wonder if there is anything specific to the aircraft >environment or application that is behind this. Heat? RPM? >Vibration? Pilot load mismanagement? Any common threads showing up >yet? Typical of nearly ALL such events, we'll never have the kind of data we need to deduce root cause or even support or refute your suggestion as to whether the failure rate is alarmingly high. It's been perhaps 6-8 months since we heard of one here on the List. Two in a few weeks is not necessarily 'alarming' unless we get two more next week. But even then, I'll bet there are thousands of IR alternators flying but with totally unknown pedigrees. Further, I have to recognize that I occupy a position much the same as physicians who have been accused of having a jaundiced view of the human condition because they only see and work with sick people all day. In the same vein of thought, I hear very few folks talk about how well their systems have worked for years . . . but if a system has a problem of any kind, I'm likely to hear much more about that. Therefore, I suggest we forego any investigations, discussions AND worries in and attempt to put analog calibrations on essentially digital data. We KNOW there are examples of failures of these alternators. We KNOW there are examples of failures in externally regulated alternators too. The prudent approach is to ASSUME that the risk of failure for either technology is not zero and design to tolerate it. I prefer this over to hoping that beliefs we hold about reliability are not well founded and being doubly disappointed when someone gets $high$ smoke in the cockpit. I've already identified a goal to have absolute, anytime, any conditions, zero risks control of the IR alternator. Achieving this design goal is 95% of the cost of the hardware. To add OV protection on top is only a few lines of code in a micro- controller that already exists to manage the control task. Further, adding the OV protection feature goes directly to the idea of failure tolerant design. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:39 PM PST US From: "Peter Laurence" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Timer module Carlos, Here is one way of regulating the 9 volts. See: http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/ps-lm317.html Peter In the circuit design shown in > > http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html > the power source is indicated at 9 V. Please forgive an electronics ignorant question, but what should be done to connect this circuit to 12/14 V ? Carlos ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage At 10:52 AM 1/24/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I was really hoping not to have to ask this question, but I'm at the end of >my electron understanding, so... > >I have a 2 year old PC680 Battery and a 60amp IR alternator on my 7A. With >Avionics on my Buss voltage is 12.6 or greater as shown on my Engine >montitor. When I add Nav and Strobes I get a fluctuating 12.4 to 12.6 volts >which is just enought to trigger the Lo/Ov module light. Drives me crazy >after awhile. When I add either Landing or Taxi light to the load I get >steady Lo voltage light. Alternator seems to be putting out up to 28 +/- >amps as needed so my guess is that I have not maintained the battery very >well during the 18 months or so it sat in the airplane while installing / >testing the avionics. > >What sequence of tests would help me narrow the reasons this may be >happening? What architecture are you using? How do you measure alternator output amps? With voltage readings like that, it sounds like the alternator is not even coming on line. It the alternator is working, 14.2 to 14.6 is more normal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chronically low voltage At 01:16 PM 1/24/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > >Sorry, the Lo V status occurs at cruise power and rpm. >The battery seems to start the engine ok, but I think with electronic >ignition it seems to start much easier than with only the Mag. >I have a Grand Rapids Engine Monitor that shows the current output of the >alternator. This is the 60amp Nippon Denso alternator that has gotten so >much discussion recently. My original 60a alternator failed witnin 20 hours >of operation, so this is a replacement alternator. >Randy Put a battery maintainer or other smart charger on the battery and wait until its green light comes on stating that the battery is fully charged. Start the engine but leave EVERYTHING electrical turned off except battery and alternator. The engine monitor should IMMEDIATELY show 14.2 or more volts and alternator output current should peak up but come down pretty quickly . . . probably under 10 amps in a minute or so. If you don't have 14 volts but do have some measurable output current, the alternator is bad. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:23 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Timer module Probably nothing. The LMC555 is rated to 15V. The characteristic of the 555 series is that the timing is relatively insensitive to the supply voltage. If you run it from 12-14V you will have to choose a relay that is rated at more than the 6V the schematic shows and has a resistance of 1000 ohms or more. Depending on what you want to control with the relay, you could also use an NPN transistor or FET to control the load in place of the relay. The only weakness in the circuit shown is that if you get transients on your aircraft voltage you might destroy the LMC555 - depends on the length and voltage of the transient. You could mitigate this problem with a small series resistor and filter capacitor to ground. If you want it to be bulletproof a zener in parallel with the capacitor would do it. I know this might be too much for you to absorb :-) . If you have other questions, please feel free to ask. Dick Carlos Trigo wrote: > > > In the circuit design shown in > >> >> http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/relay1h.html >> > > the power source is indicated at 9 V. > Please forgive an electronics ignorant question, but what should be > done to connect this circuit to 12/14 V ? > > Carlos > > -- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. 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