Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:26 AM - Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 05:31 AM - Re: push to talk switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:38 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Ken)
4. 06:16 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
6. 08:16 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
7. 09:07 AM - Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs (Dennis Jones)
8. 09:15 AM - Fuel Flow measurement (Eric Parlow)
9. 09:20 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Ken)
10. 09:40 AM - Scuse me - bare Nuckolls (Fergus Kyle)
11. 09:49 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Bruce Gray)
12. 09:52 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
13. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:03 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 10:05 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Brett Ferrell)
16. 10:06 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
17. 10:08 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement ()
18. 10:33 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Eric Parlow)
19. 11:24 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 11:41 AM - Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 12:31 PM - Leading edge ideas and inventions (Gaye and Vaughn)
22. 01:14 PM - Re: 8awg line to forest of tabs (Dennis Jones)
23. 01:45 PM - To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Chuck Jensen)
24. 02:20 PM - Anus is as anus does (Fergus Kyle)
25. 02:34 PM - Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 02:54 PM - Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Dave N6030X)
27. 03:36 PM - Aircraft wiring for smart people (Tim Andres)
28. 05:03 PM - Re: the fellowship of the list (Rodney Dunham)
29. 06:18 PM - Re: The case for an IR&D facility . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 06:41 PM - Re: the fellowship of the list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
31. 06:47 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 07:22 PM - Plane Power (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
33. 07:36 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Lamar Lawson)
34. 08:01 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Tim Andres)
35. 08:40 PM - Re: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
36. 08:47 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
37. 09:25 PM - Re: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
38. 10:01 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Tim Andres)
39. 10:04 PM - Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Bob Verwey)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs |
At 11:16 PM 1/28/2007 -0800, you wrote:
><djones@northboone.net>
>
>Bob
>
>My aircraft has a tandem seating configuration. I want to have the forrest
>of tabs toward the back of the aircraft, the location of all the electric
>stuff. I would rather run the #2 from the battery to the firewall pass
>through bolt with out breaking the line to attach to the forrest of tab
>bolt. Can I run a #8 from the negative post of the battery directly to the
>forrest of tabs and run the #2 to the firewall without a break in the
>line? Also what options are there to attach the #8 to the same lug as the #2?
>
>Thanks
>Jonsey
I'm having trouble visualizing your description.
What kind of airplane are we talking about? Do
I understand that you want separate locations for
the firewall pass-thru bolt and the forest-of-tabs?
Hmmmm . . . I think I'm getting it. Is this a metal
airplane with a rear mounted battery, midships ground
block and a ground stud on the firewall?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: push to talk switch |
At 05:48 PM 1/28/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Hi,
> I am normally on the Kolb list and one of the guys there suggested
> that I could find the answer to one of my problems here. I have a grip on
> my stick that has five buttons, one of which is supposed to be a push to
> talk button. However it only has two connections on it. The other buttons
> control my EIS. I had thought that a I-Com push to talk switch was merely
> a momentary switch.
Correct. ALL PTT buttons are normally open, momentary
operation.
> When I cut into the wire I find a red, green, white and black wire. The
> red and green show continuity when the button is pushed.
Then use these two wires.
> The white and black also are a closed circuit. I really don't want to
> screw things up, can anybody enlighten me as to the best way to hook this up.
Didn't your stick grip come with a schematic? If not,
contact the suppler and suggest that his product is
NOT ready for prime-time until it's shipped with
lucid, tell-all instructions.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator mistake |
If the OV shutdown is simply a crowbar on the IGN terminal that pretty
much means that I would not trust it either. Better than nothing maybe
but... Can you confirm where that wire goes Frank?
Ken
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>I installed the smaller 60Amp unit than the one shown in the link you
>provided, Not sure what form factor it is but it is considerably smaller
>than the 70A unit shown (which incidently looks identical to the ND
>Toyota Camry unit I replaced). The reason I fitted this one was that was
>all that Van's had in stock and should be big enough even with the dual
>electric fuel pump/IFR installation in my airplane.
>
>I do note the voltage regulator is set a little low at around 13.7V.
>
>The crowbar unit on the back appears to just have small single wire that
>presumably just collapses the field current. To be honest I was little
>reluctant to rely on this device so I wired it in series with my
>existing OV protection the basis of which is one of Eric's big
>contactors.
>
>Can you turn the unit off?...Hmm, well the instructions do not
>specifically mention this. They do say you can turn the unit ON by
>energising the filed but I did not see that you could turn it
>off...Personally I would not try to do this unless it was an emergency.
>
>I'll have a look in the hangar for the instructions, I do know they were
>pretty sparse electriclly speaking.
>
>Incidently different topic, the backup SD-8 alternator cranks out quite
>a bit more than 8amps...I can reliably run almost evrything in the
>airplane...i.e one FI electric fuel pump, GNS430 and an audio
>panel...The battery volts will dip below 12v on a transmit but apart
>from that it is enough to drive home if don't use any lights. I would
>say the unit makes nearer 12A.
>
>Frank
>
>
> Incidentally Frank, which model of PP alternator did you
> install? Would you be willing to copy/scan the installation
> data that comes with it and send it to me? I note that
> some models on their website speaks of ov votlage protection
> and they've even used the (ugh!) word "crowabar" in the
> context of speaking about ov protection. The photo at
>
>http://www.plane-power.com/images/AL12_EI70%20Wiring.pdf
>
> shows what appears to be an add-on to the back of their
> product for the purpose of providing OV protection.
> I'm curious as to whether or not you can turn the alternator
> OFF by way of the "field switch" after it has once been
> turned ON.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Alternator mistake |
At 10:39 PM 1/28/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>
>Hello Bob,
>
>I installed the smaller 60Amp unit than the one shown in the link you
>provided, Not sure what form factor it is but it is considerably smaller
>than the 70A unit shown (which incidently looks identical to the ND
>Toyota Camry unit I replaced). The reason I fitted this one was that was
>all that Van's had in stock and should be big enough even with the dual
>electric fuel pump/IFR installation in my airplane.
>
>I do note the voltage regulator is set a little low at around 13.7V.
That's disappointing. 13.7 will EVENTUALLY replenish the charge
in a SVLA battery but the recharge time to 99% of capacity can
be 3-10x longer than at 14.2 or even 14.6 volts.
Their website is remarkably silent on the topic of voltage
setpoints for both OBAM aviation and TC aviation products.
Nonetheless, if they've been granted permission to install
on TC aircraft, they're no doubt in possession of data which
describes the voltage regulation characteristics of their
PMA products . . . I would expect the OBAM aviation products
to be identical.
Drop them a note and ask. You're a $paying$ customer. It's
not an unreasonable question.
>The crowbar unit on the back appears to just have small single wire that
>presumably just collapses the field current. To be honest I was little
>reluctant to rely on this device so I wired it in series with my
>existing OV protection the basis of which is one of Eric's big
>contactors.
>
>Can you turn the unit off?...Hmm, well the instructions do not
>specifically mention this. They do say you can turn the unit ON by
>energising the filed but I did not see that you could turn it
>off...Personally I would not try to do this unless it was an emergency.
Unless there's a b-lead disconnection device like that shown
in Figure Z-24 and Z-24a, there is no risk to the alternator
to attempt a shutdown via the "ALT FIELD" switch. If this
switch functions as we've come to expect from traditional
installations, the alternator will simply stop producing power
and resume when it's closed. This test can be accomplished at
low rpm, everything turned off and by watching the voltmeter
to wiggle when the switch is operated.
>I'll have a look in the hangar for the instructions, I do know they were
>pretty sparse electriclly speaking.
Thank you for sharing this information. I've written Steve Klodd,
head chef at Plane Power to inquire about the functionality of
product features cited on his website. We shall see . . .
>Incidently different topic, the backup SD-8 alternator cranks out quite
>a bit more than 8amps...I can reliably run almost evrything in the
>airplane...i.e one FI electric fuel pump, GNS430 and an audio
>panel...The battery volts will dip below 12v on a transmit but apart
>from that it is enough to drive home if don't use any lights. I would
>say the unit makes nearer 12A.
Also interesting. I've often thought that the capabilities of
the SD-8 would drift upward with time. The availability of
high-performance magnets continues to improve and I've always
thought that the magnet assemblies shipped to B&C might just
become better with technological age. You may well be
experiencing this phenomenon. I'll ask Tim about it the next
time we talk.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions |
IP rights do more than protect a company's product, it also protects
the company itself. For every ten scientists that stand up and review a
product saying it is safe, any ambulance chaser can find another 10 that
will say it will kill you just being in the same room.
I'm not a scientist, lawyer, and I certainly didn't sleep at a Holiday
Inn Express last night, nor am I criticizing Bob so let's not go there.
I just want to make sure people don't look down on a company if they
don't want to put their IP under outside scrutiny. If someone is
concerned about going with a IVR, use an EVR. PlanePower sells both
with the option of having a PMA'd alternator. My point is, make sure
you have a full discussion with the vendor on their product and
capabilities. Don't just take the word of an Internet mailing list.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Limbo
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:46 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:50 PM 1/28/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the comprehensive replies, Bob---it was certainly helpful to
>understand your well thought out position. You are well aware, I am
sure
>though, that not all Aeroelectric website "clients" are as intensively
>fascinated by the details of aircraft electrical system design down at
the
>molecular level that some others are. Like others here, I'm just a
pilot
>and flying airplanes, not designing them, is the part that interests
>me. I know a lot about flying but not so much about "aviation" and
hardly
>anything at all about electrical system design except that I need one.
I'll be the first to admit that the AeroElectric-List is
not everyone's ideal information source. It was intended from
the first to be leading edge for new ideas and inventions . . .
and to stand up and denounce bad science along with an
explanation as to why.
There are plenty of unfiltered venues that dispense traditional
data not the least of which are most of the books offered by
EAA bookstores and elsewhere. Nothing wrong with those efforts.
They've helped the vast majority of builders get their project
airborne.
>
>Those who fit that description may not be interested in the details but
>still want to make a sound decision about a mature, reliable electrical
>system for their airplanes in order to best take advantage of the
growing
>technical advances in avionics and navigation equipment available
>today. Many are anxiously awaiting your "fix" for IR alternators but
>there are others who probably think they've already found one in Plane
Power.
Nobody would be happier than I to see someone offering
modern alternators that work within the design goals
I've established for myself. There is nothing better for
the community at large than to have honorable, capable
competition.
>That seems to be the big unanswered question. Has Plane Power put the
>genie back in the bottle or not?? They say they have---has anyone seen
or
>produced independant verification of their assertions? If so, I
suspect a
>small stampede will have just begun---
I'll contact Plane Power and see if they'll share any
of the details necessary for a critical design review.
Most companies are reluctant because they fear some risks
to loss of proprietary information. A silly notion when
you get right down to it. I have reverse engineered dozens
of products but not for the purpose of cloning their work . . .
the goal was to do BETTER. I've never dissected a product
that I and my compatriots could not improve upon. Further,
for all I know, folks who are my most vociferous detractors
may have already poisoned the waters at Plane Power.
I think that happened at Niagara Airparts . . . never
could get those folks to discuss their products. This
is also silly. I have a substantial following and it
only makes sense that we should be cooperating in a win-win
effort. So, my personal approach is to see how products
perform in the field. If it makes sense, I'll craft
an offering with a goal my competition feel compelled
to emulate me instead of the other way around.
Therefore, I'd be pleased if anyone can post first-hand
experiences of Plane Power's products and customer service
right here on the List.
>Warm regards and again, thanks for all your hard work in this arena...
Couldn't do it if it wasn't MOSTLY fun! Thank you for the
kind words.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 6
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| Subject: | Alternator mistake |
Hard to tell Ken but it is a very small wire that appears to go to the
center of the machine so my assumption is that it goes directly to one
of the slip ring brushes, the other end is bolted presumably to a
contact that goes to the opposite brush or maybe the case...I'm thinking
it shorts out (or grounds) the field coil.
I'm definatly not an electrical expert so I may well be a little off
here.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:41 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake
If the OV shutdown is simply a crowbar on the IGN terminal that pretty
much means that I would not trust it either. Better than nothing maybe
but... Can you confirm where that wire goes Frank?
Ken
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
Message 7
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| Subject: | 8awg line to forrest of tabs |
Yes to both questions. Steel tube and rag.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:16 PM 1/28/2007 -0800, you wrote:
><djones@northboone.net>
>
>Bob
>
>My aircraft has a tandem seating configuration. I want to have the forrest
>of tabs toward the back of the aircraft, the location of all the electric
>stuff. I would rather run the #2 from the battery to the firewall pass
>through bolt with out breaking the line to attach to the forrest of tab
>bolt. Can I run a #8 from the negative post of the battery directly to the
>forrest of tabs and run the #2 to the firewall without a break in the
>line? Also what options are there to attach the #8 to the same lug as the
#2?
>
>Thanks
>Jonsey
I'm having trouble visualizing your description.
What kind of airplane are we talking about? Do
I understand that you want separate locations for
the firewall pass-thru bolt and the forest-of-tabs?
Hmmmm . . . I think I'm getting it. Is this a metal
airplane with a rear mounted battery, midships ground
block and a ground stud on the firewall?
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Fuel Flow measurement |
I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return.
I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the
return flow.
The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal.
Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses
from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?
i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz).
The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow
input.
ERic--
RV-10, N104EP
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator mistake |
You are arousing my curiousity for sure though. If it bypasses the
silicon and crowbars directly to the field windings, that would make it
a totally acceptable one time OV protection in my mind. I think that
would be as good or better than I have with Z-24 if it limits
alternator damage to the voltage regulator. More money than my locally
obtained alternator but easier to install. One nice thing about Z-24 is
that I can test the OV function with the engine off without damaging
anything.
I am looking forward to Bob's AEC9004 for a universal solution though.
If he can demonstrate stalling alternators without damaging them that
would be marvelous.
Ken
Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
>
>Hard to tell Ken but it is a very small wire that appears to go to the
>center of the machine so my assumption is that it goes directly to one
>of the slip ring brushes, the other end is bolted presumably to a
>contact that goes to the opposite brush or maybe the case...I'm thinking
>it shorts out (or grounds) the field coil.
>
>I'm definatly not an electrical expert so I may well be a little off
>here.
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:41 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake
>
>
>If the OV shutdown is simply a crowbar on the IGN terminal that pretty
>much means that I would not trust it either. Better than nothing maybe
>but... Can you confirm where that wire goes Frank?
>Ken
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Scuse me - bare Nuckolls |
"From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sonoma CA seminar date is set . .
Dr. Dee and I will be visiting the NoCal wine country
on April 21/22 to deliver a presentation in the facilities
of EAA chapter 1268. Sign-up sheet is posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/Sonoma.html"
This is for those who might think of attending........
I was responsible for suggesting Bob's presentation to our Chapter (60
members, half active) - 'way up here in Canada - almost two years ago. The
reaction ran to "there aren't enough of us". "it costs too much" (US$),
"there's no room", etc etc.
Well, we had Bob's largest audience to date, people from Tennessee, New York
and Montreal if I remember correctly. that two days was the best weekend
most of our gang spent by popular reaction. Not a whimper I know of - and we
asked...
The series is informative, factual, accurate and informal so that if you
have a specific problem, it'll probably be sorted out before you can ask
This is an unsolicitted email - I gain nothing by it - I've already learned
more than I thought - and it was worth it (even if it was bigger $).
Go.
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fuel Flow measurement |
Eric,
Does your fuel system have a return line from the distribution spider back
to the tank?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Parlow
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement
<ericparlow@hotmail.com>
I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return.
I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the
return flow.
The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal.
Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses
from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?
i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz).
The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow
input.
ERic--
RV-10, N104EP
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fuel Flow measurement |
YES!
Go to the Matronics website, there you will find a device that does
exactly that. The output from this device can be read by any counter as
if it were a single flow meter, Dynon for example will read this net
fuel flow directly.
Cheers
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Parlow
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement
--> <ericparlow@hotmail.com>
I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return.
I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the
return flow.
The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal.
Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow
pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?
i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz).
The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow
input.
ERic--
RV-10, N104EP
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions |
At 08:31 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>
> IP rights do more than protect a company's product, it also protects
>the company itself. For every ten scientists that stand up and review a
>product saying it is safe, any ambulance chaser can find another 10 that
>will say it will kill you just being in the same room.
>
> I'm not a scientist, lawyer, and I certainly didn't sleep at a Holiday
>Inn Express last night, nor am I criticizing Bob so let's not go there.
>I just want to make sure people don't look down on a company if they
>don't want to put their IP under outside scrutiny. If someone is
>concerned about going with a IVR, use an EVR. PlanePower sells both
>with the option of having a PMA'd alternator. My point is, make sure
>you have a full discussion with the vendor on their product and
>capabilities. Don't just take the word of an Internet mailing list.
Absolutely! But there is NO excuse whatsoever to withhold
any system integration, performance, limits or operational
data on any product. I'm always amazed at how little information
that suppliers of products are able to supply in response
to perfectly reasonable questions. I suspect most data is
not forthcoming due to ignorance on the part of the person(s)
tasked with customer service.
The intellectual property issues are certainly valid
concerns . . . for original work. But most companies are
basically lazy: "Let's throw the proprietary information
stamp on everything." This nicely relieves anyone of
responsibility (and indirectly liability) for having to
make a personal decision. The end result from this
policy-n-procedures cloaking of all data under black
blankets is that customer service folks are handcuffed.
Customers are deprived of information they need to
make a considered buying decision and to use the
product after purchase.
Once you sell a product, virtually everything to
be known about it is now loose in the wild. It's
only a matter of $time$ for anyone who wishes to
dissect and discover its "secrets". Interestingly
enough, of all the products I've dissected, I've
discovered no novel techniques applied. Further,
the techniques were so unimaginative or outdated
that it was no big deal to craft newer and very
aggressive competition for that product. I'm only
suggesting that the $time$ most organizations spend
to "protect" themselves is actually wasted effort
and in many instances, counter-productive to their
success in the marketplace.
Even the much touted 'patent' is of suspect value.
Once you HAVE a patent for which you've invested
much $time$, you're obligated to protect it. So
suppose GM decides to step on some little company
with a whippy but patented idea. In our system
where losers are not required to pay all litigation
costs, what are the odds that Small Parts, Inc.
will prevail against an onslaught from Big Parts,
Inc? Remember the guy named Tucker?
The most successful ventures have been those who
took old, proven, public domain ideas and crafted
them into a product with exemplary performance
at a fair value backed by good customer service
. . . like that guy named Van.
In no way was I attempting to belittle the need
for keeping truly original work as private as
practical . . . but lazy organizations shoot
themselves in both feet and between the eyes
by failing to observe the prime directive of
successful businesses: "Make sure that a customer
who owns your product is looking forward to
buying a replacement for that product from
YOU after a long and pleasing experience.
There is no better advertisement than having
that customer showing the product to others
and speaking favorably about it throughout its
lifetime."
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Alternator mistake |
Ya, for me I have come to regard the $400 alternator as almost
sacrificial, as long as it does not fry my $6000 GNS 430!..>And
especially as long as it doesn't do it when I need it in hard IMC.
It seems alternators have very low failure rates generally (and I have
an SD8 backup) then a resettable alternator is a pretty low priority for
me...Would I fly 500 miles home on an SD8 backup in IFR? Probably not,
but I might wait a day and do it VFR then send the alt away for repair
upon my return home.
My second error (apart from the grounding thing) was using a cheap
rebuild for what has become a critical application (I'm doing my IFR
training in the RV7a). The fact it took me about a day to fabricate all
the brackets, source a suitable belt etc and $400 is looking pretty
inexpensive...:)
Anyway some rambling thoughts
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake
You are arousing my curiousity for sure though. If it bypasses the
silicon and crowbars directly to the field windings, that would make it
a totally acceptable one time OV protection in my mind. I think that
would be as good or better than I have with Z-24 if it limits
alternator damage to the voltage regulator. More money than my locally
obtained alternator but easier to install. One nice thing about Z-24 is
that I can test the OV function with the engine off without damaging
anything.
I am looking forward to Bob's AEC9004 for a universal solution though.
If he can demonstrate stalling alternators without damaging them that
would be marvelous.
Ken
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow measurement |
Eric,
The E/1 has this function built into it. You can find out more about it at the
BMA website, or give them a call, but you use the fuel flow inputs as A+B or
A-B combinations.
This is described on page 29 of the Installation Manual V2.16H
http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download_efislite/efis_lite_install_guide_215.pdf
Brett
Quoting Eric Parlow <ericparlow@hotmail.com>:
> <ericparlow@hotmail.com>
>
> I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return.
>
> I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the
> return flow.
> The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal.
>
> Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses
> from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?
>
> i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz).
>
> The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow
> input.
>
> ERic--
> RV-10, N104EP
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Fuel Flow measurement |
Contact Gary Newstead, He has an Eggenfellner with a Blue Mountain, and
he built a sensor for fuel flow for the BMA and is offering them for
sale through Jan's site.
Dan
N289DT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Parlow
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement
<ericparlow@hotmail.com>
I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return.
I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the
return flow.
The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal.
Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow
pluses
from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?
i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz).
The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow
input.
ERic--
RV-10, N104EP
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Flow measurement |
Hello Eric
"Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow
pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?"
May I suggest you read a thread on Europa Newsgroup about just this:
http://www.europaowners.org/
Scroll to Matronics Listserver
Have a look at:
Europa-List: Re: Fuel Flow Instrumentation
and:
Europa-List: Fuel Flow Instrumentation
and:
Europa-List: Fuel flow for 914
Ron P.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Fuel Flow measurement |
Bruce,
The current Lycoming IO-540-D4 mechanical fuel system does not have/require
a fuel return.
I'm building in the return capability for the future electric fuel system
and/or the diesel engine.
ERic--
RV-10, N104EP
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement
Eric,
Does your fuel system have a return line from the distribution spider back
to the tank?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric
Parlow
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement
<ericparlow@hotmail.com>
I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return.
I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the
return flow.
The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal.
Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses
from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?
i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz).
The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow
input.
ERic--
RV-10, N104EP
Message 19
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| Subject: | Alternator mistake |
At 11:59 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
<SNIP>
>My second error (apart from the grounding thing) was using a cheap
>rebuild for what has become a critical application (I'm doing my IFR
>training in the RV7a). The fact it took me about a day to fabricate all
>the brackets, source a suitable belt etc and $400 is looking pretty
>inexpensive...:)
>
>Anyway some rambling thoughts
Not rambling thoughts but critical design review.
I don't know how many builders have written or called
about sources for materials to accomplish some portion
of their project DIY. I always try to ask, "Are you
doing this because you WANT to learn how it's done
and enjoy doing it for the experience . . . or is it
to save money."
More often than not, the answer is, "to save money".
I've come to realize that our rudimentary commodity
of exchange is $time$ . . . and when one considers
the total cost of acquisition and ownership in terms
of total $time$, they quite often find that it would
have been better to spend their $time$ acquiring
cash at something they're good at than to spend more
$time$ in an attempt to get something new done right
the first time.
>You are arousing my curiousity for sure though. If it bypasses the
>silicon and crowbars directly to the field windings, that would make it
>a totally acceptable one time OV protection in my mind. I think that
>would be as good or better than I have with Z-24 if it limits
>alternator damage to the voltage regulator. More money than my locally
>obtained alternator but easier to install. One nice thing about Z-24 is
>that I can test the OV function with the engine off without damaging
>anything.
You can test Z-24 with the engine running. Just run at
ramp rpm and wait until the battery is recharged after
cranking the engine. The magnitude of the load dump
transient is a function of alternator output current
and rpm at the time the b-lead opens. A lightly
stressed alternator doesn't "bump" vigorously.
Note on page 2 of
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/MC33092A.pdf
. . . the regulator is spec'd to stand off a load dump
transient of 40v for 125 mS. I think this is typical
of the industry and mirrors DO-160 recommendations
for 14v systems.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 20
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| Subject: | 8awg line to forrest of tabs |
At 10:34 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><djones@northboone.net>
>
>Yes to both questions. Steel tube and rag.
Hmmmm . . . Okay. If it were my airplane I'd "float"
the forest-of-tabs from the airframe at whatever location
you choose to mount it. Bring 2AWG to the ground block
from the battery. Bring a second 2AWG from ground block
to a thru-bolt at the firewall where the crankcase jumper
picks up a ground for the crankcase.
This is to accommodate systems that might have grounded
transducers at the crankcase but get their power grounds
at the forest of tabs. Can you elaborate why you're not
interested in putting the tabs on the firewall? I'm still
thinking this is electrically better even if it means some
ground wires are a bit longer.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Leading edge ideas and inventions |
You said " There is no better advertisement than having
that customer showing the product to others
and speaking favorably about it throughout its
lifetime."
Bob . . ."
All that I can say to that is "AMEN Brother". Unfortunately, so many
companies are losing sight of that principle that reputation has become
a bigger influance on my buying decisions than price.
I have often not bought a product because I asked a question to which I
knew the answer, but was given a line of obvious BS because the contact
person didn't want to take the time to answer the question or did not
know the answer and was too lazy to find out or didn't care to find out.
How can you not want to find the answer? The downside of this curiosity
can be a very long build time. This is where the shades of gray inter
the picture.
Sorry Bob, you poked a raw nerve of mine.
Vaughn
N914VA (60% to 80% completed, depending on the gathering of answers)
Message 22
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| Subject: | 8awg line to forest of tabs |
That basically is the reason why. I just didn't want to run a bunch of
grounds from the back all the way to the front. Just trying different ideas.
As usual you shed light on things with the transducer question. It is a
simple system, so I would have to think about if it applies, good point non
the less.
Thanks again
Jonsey
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:34 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote:
><djones@northboone.net>
>
>Yes to both questions. Steel tube and rag.
Hmmmm . . . Okay. If it were my airplane I'd "float"
the forest-of-tabs from the airframe at whatever location
you choose to mount it. Bring 2AWG to the ground block
from the battery. Bring a second 2AWG from ground block
to a thru-bolt at the firewall where the crankcase jumper
picks up a ground for the crankcase.
This is to accommodate systems that might have grounded
transducers at the crankcase but get their power grounds
at the forest of tabs. Can you elaborate why you're not
interested in putting the tabs on the firewall? I'm still
thinking this is electrically better even if it means some
ground wires are a bit longer.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | To buy or not to buy, that is the question |
Bob wrote...
Not rambling thoughts but critical design review.
I don't know how many builders have written or called
about sources for materials to accomplish some portion
of their project DIY. I always try to ask, "Are you
doing this because you WANT to learn how it's done
and enjoy doing it for the experience . . . or is it
to save money."
More often than not, the answer is, "to save money".
I've come to realize that our rudimentary commodity
of exchange is $time$ . . . and when one considers
the total cost of acquisition and ownership in terms
of total $time$, they quite often find that it would
have been better to spend their $time$ acquiring
cash at something they're good at than to spend more
$time$ in an attempt to get something new done right
the first time.
As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a
project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it
seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it as
an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our time
very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building airplanes!),
then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is cheaper to buy
it then build it.
Chuck
Message 24
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| Subject: | Anus is as anus does |
"www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Jack_Tab_Soldering/Jack_Tab_Soldering.html
Rod
For the totally anal out there, the joint shown in that link would have
failed the soldering class I took at Community College oh-so-many years
ago."
For those who are not so "anal", I find Bob's example satisfies the need
very well.
There are Community Colleges and Community Colleges, and failing soldering
class is not a serious item unless the instructor is limited to marking
solder joints.
"1) joint can be inspected to verify that there is good wet out of the wire
and the connector
------------see picture 2
2) the joint has the mechanical strength of the hook
-----------see picture 2
3) the joint is easily disassembled later by reflowing the solder.
-----------is this a safety criterion? I undid connections just like Bob's
for the hundreds of WW II surplus aircraft radio bits that formed my first
transmitter with a solder iron and snippers - and the point is...........?
Ferg Kyle
Europa A064 914 Classic
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question |
>As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a
>project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it
>seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it as
>an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our time
>very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building airplanes!),
>then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is cheaper to buy
>it then build it.
This is usually the case . . . unless you're already skilled
at the building part. On the other side, real education is
truly expensive in terms of $time$ expended . . . often with
no demonstrable expectation for return on investment.
I'd hate to see a real spreadsheet on the $time$ I've expended
purely for the fun of finding out something new or to try
my hand at some new skill. I've often admitted to being
"afflicted" with that strange disease where my vocation
is also my avocation. I do this stuff for the boss under
conditions that are often frustrating and then come home
to do it some more where it's got to be fun or I wouldn't do it.
I'm crafting a white paper for the new managers of
Hawker-Beech dealing with the need for REAL IR&D
facilities. The business case goes to several
management issues but the one I like the most is to
suggest that we (the company) should support an IR&D
activity with tools, materials, facility and mentorship
but to be utilized on the employee's OWN time. Shucks,
everybody would show up if they had a work order.
I've suggested that such a facility would be a valuable
human resources "filter" . . . I would guess that out
of 900 or so engineers and perhaps 1,000 more technical
staff, there are perhaps 50-100 folks who have "the
disease". I'm telling them that it would be useful
to KNOW who those folks are and what they're REALLY
good at. An IR&D facility provide a means by which
folks could exercise their skills EVERY DAY. Further,
we'd acquire valuable insight into skills that
the most motivated individuals in our employ can bring
to bear on the company's fortunes.
The best thing is that such a facility can be operated
on perhaps 2-5% of our total engineering overhead
budget. A pittance.
This is a generic document intended to identify and
exploit simple ideas. I'll be pleased to share it
with the List and get your feedback. Further, it's
my hope that many of you may find the document useful
in your own workplaces. Watch this space.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question |
Bob, when I was managing a software company that was moving into a
new building, we designed in 2 unusual rooms:
1. A complete laundry room with a washer, dryer, sink, ironing board,
hooks, cabinets, hangers, etc.
2. A children's play room, complete with miscellaneous toys
The theory was that we had a bunch of brilliant programmers who
enjoyed coding, and if they had time on a Saturday afternoon to do
their laundry but could also do some coding while they were waiting
for the washer or the dryer, they would come to the office to do
it. If they had kids, they would bring them to the office to play
while they did some playing of their own on the computer. This was
back in the days when few people could yet afford a personal computer at home.
I personally thought it was brilliant, and it worked like a
charm. Right up to the time the management of the company was
swapped out for some bean counters who were more concerned with
whether little Johnny would hurt himself in the play room. Soon
thereafter the company's doors were locked at 17:01 every day, nobody
came in on weekends, the brilliant team of programmers dissolved, and
I don't work there any more either.
Dave Morris
At 04:33 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote:
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>
>>As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a
>>project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it
>>seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it as
>>an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our time
>>very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building airplanes!),
>>then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is cheaper to buy
>>it then build it.
>
> This is usually the case . . . unless you're already skilled
> at the building part. On the other side, real education is
> truly expensive in terms of $time$ expended . . . often with
> no demonstrable expectation for return on investment.
>
> I'd hate to see a real spreadsheet on the $time$ I've expended
> purely for the fun of finding out something new or to try
> my hand at some new skill. I've often admitted to being
> "afflicted" with that strange disease where my vocation
> is also my avocation. I do this stuff for the boss under
> conditions that are often frustrating and then come home
> to do it some more where it's got to be fun or I wouldn't do it.
>
> I'm crafting a white paper for the new managers of
> Hawker-Beech dealing with the need for REAL IR&D
> facilities. The business case goes to several
> management issues but the one I like the most is to
> suggest that we (the company) should support an IR&D
> activity with tools, materials, facility and mentorship
> but to be utilized on the employee's OWN time. Shucks,
> everybody would show up if they had a work order.
>
> I've suggested that such a facility would be a valuable
> human resources "filter" . . . I would guess that out
> of 900 or so engineers and perhaps 1,000 more technical
> staff, there are perhaps 50-100 folks who have "the
> disease". I'm telling them that it would be useful
> to KNOW who those folks are and what they're REALLY
> good at. An IR&D facility provide a means by which
> folks could exercise their skills EVERY DAY. Further,
> we'd acquire valuable insight into skills that
> the most motivated individuals in our employ can bring
> to bear on the company's fortunes.
>
> The best thing is that such a facility can be operated
> on perhaps 2-5% of our total engineering overhead
> budget. A pittance.
>
> This is a generic document intended to identify and
> exploit simple ideas. I'll be pleased to share it
> with the List and get your feedback. Further, it's
> my hope that many of you may find the document useful
> in your own workplaces. Watch this space.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
> ( what ever you do must be exercised )
> ( EVERY day . . . )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Aircraft wiring for smart people |
Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter
offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable
to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like.
Thanks, Tim Andres
Cozy MK IV
Redding, Ca
--
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: the fellowship of the list |
Bob et al,
For me, the issue is not time vs money. Of equal importance are quality and
understanding!
When I look at my buddies' airplanes I realize that my electrical system is
far better than theirs! And it's not just "my plane's better than yours",
but mine is the "best-I-know-how-to-do" with failure tolerance built in.
When they are having electrical issues, I'm not! When they are suffering
from EMI, I'm not! When their batteries are whipped, mine's not! And, when
they are scratching their heads wondering what's causing a certain problem,
I'm not!
I know just what I've got, how it is supposed to work, how it might fail,
and what to do about it when and if it does! Now that is a great confidence
builder and I have only one man to thank for it, Bob Nuckolls!
I tell everyone that will listen about the Aeroelectric Connection and this
site. I show them all the neat and wonderfull electrical thingies built into
my plane. They nod their heads in obvious approval and admiration and go on
doing what they've always done :o(
Well, it's just not for everyone, is it? We are the lucky few. The chosen
ones! We get to benefit from the wisdom and tutelage of the master. We enjoy
the fellowship of the list. It's beautiful really.
Rodney in Tennessee
Unabashed Nuckollhead
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: The case for an IR&D facility . . . |
At 04:52 PM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Bob, when I was managing a software company that was moving into a new
>building, we designed in 2 unusual rooms:
>1. A complete laundry room with a washer, dryer, sink, ironing board,
>hooks, cabinets, hangers, etc.
>2. A children's play room, complete with miscellaneous toys
>
>The theory was that we had a bunch of brilliant programmers who enjoyed
>coding, and if they had time on a Saturday afternoon to do their laundry
>but could also do some coding while they were waiting for the washer or
>the dryer, they would come to the office to do it. If they had kids, they
>would bring them to the office to play while they did some playing of
>their own on the computer. This was back in the days when few people
>could yet afford a personal computer at home.
>
>I personally thought it was brilliant, and it worked like a charm. Right
>up to the time the management of the company was swapped out for some bean
>counters who were more concerned with whether little Johnny would hurt
>himself in the play room. Soon thereafter the company's doors were locked
>at 17:01 every day, nobody came in on weekends, the brilliant team of
>programmers dissolved, and I don't work there any more either.
Shucky darn! I thought I had an original thought here.
Seriously though, thank you for the anecdote. I'll add it to
my white paper. I hadn't thought about the expanded support
for family matters. Good concept. For those on the List who
are interested in such things download this .mp3 file at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Elings/Look_at_the_Big_Picture.mp3
This guy Elings is a modern day Edison, Kettering, King,
Collins, etc. I work with folks who remember when Art
Collins . . .
http://www.collinsclubs.com/history/
. . . maintained an "open stockroom". If anyone needed some
parts for a personal endeavor, have at it. Don't run the
bin so low that it puts production at risk . . . if the
bin looks low, get some more ordered.
Same with Ed King . . .
http://mcguinn1342.blogspot.com/2006/01/ed-king-story.html
I have what I believe was the tenth King KY-90 transceiver
that I found at OSH in '86.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012762.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012763.JPG
It's s/n 110 and someone told me years ago that Ed
started with #101. I'd like to believe that Ed may
have personally touched this one before it left his
fledgling operation in Olathe, Ks about the time
I was graduating from high school!
Same with Electromech where I worked in the 70's.
Dr. Elings speaks of the open stockroom at Hewlett-Packard
and at his fledgling company Digital Instruments.
Smart managers understand that if you expect your
creative folks to be really good at their jobs, they
need to be exceedingly familiar with the ingredients
that feed into recipes for success. Familiarity can come
in ANY endeavor.
At Beech we used to have at least 4 separate labs with
equipment, parts, and support staff. We had the first
multi-layer, plated-through hole ECB shop in the midwest.
All that has slowly been eliminated with the notion that
we (1) need to have documented tracking of all inventory
and how it's expended and (2) don't do anything in house
you can do out of house.
The net result was predictable. Just as your byte-thrashers
found other places to expand their horizons, our most prized
carriers of "the disease" were spread out over the square
mile in various project groups. The vast majority have
retired. I'm amongst perhaps a dozen of the old guard
that are left.
However, from the attendees of my lunchtime learning
sessions at H-B and Saturday morning mini-seminars at WSU,
I've identified some promising young bucks who show distinct
symptoms of "the disease".
My efforts at Hawker-Beech are to rebuild the IR&D facility
with even loftier goals. I've told our chief scientist
that I want to spend my last years at H-B teaching. This
would include troubleshooting problem aircraft . . . but
with a budget that allows me to have at least one of the
youngsters working right beside me. I suspect the chances
of making it happen at my day-job are less than 50% . . .
but I have plan-B.
A good friend of mine is building a new production facility
just two miles from H-B and right across the street from the
new Aviation Technical Center being planned for Jabara Airport.
The ideas behind having an IR&D facility were not lost on him.
At lunch a few months ago, his eyes lit up and he offered
to "sponsor" my IR&D facility if it didn't spool up at
H-B. He realized that the expense of supporting a facility
was trivial and would attract a cadre of individuals he'd
love to have on staff but could not justify full time salaries.
However, by having them regularly hang around HIS facility, he
would have access to their talents on an as-needed basis.
Smart man!
One way or another, my activities in aviation are going
to get out of the certification business and concentrate
on teaching and new development. I've already had some
conversation with folks who are running the new
ATC across the street from my buddy's proposed factory.
They're excited about supporting and exploiting the
sunk-werks. I might teach part time for them as well. What
ever I end up doing is going to be fun . . . or I'm not going
to do it.
Bob . . .
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: the fellowship of the list |
At 08:01 PM 1/29/2007 -0500, you wrote:
><rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
>
>Bob et al,
>
>For me, the issue is not time vs money. Of equal importance are quality
>and understanding!
>
>When I look at my buddies' airplanes I realize that my electrical system
>is far better than theirs! And it's not just "my plane's better than
>yours", but mine is the "best-I-know-how-to-do" with failure tolerance
>built in.
>
>When they are having electrical issues, I'm not! When they are suffering
>from EMI, I'm not! When their batteries are whipped, mine's not! And, when
>they are scratching their heads wondering what's causing a certain
>problem, I'm not!
>
>I know just what I've got, how it is supposed to work, how it might fail,
>and what to do about it when and if it does! Now that is a great
>confidence builder and I have only one man to thank for it, Bob Nuckolls!
>
>I tell everyone that will listen about the Aeroelectric Connection and
>this site. I show them all the neat and wonderfull electrical thingies
>built into my plane. They nod their heads in obvious approval and
>admiration and go on doing what they've always done :o(
>
>Well, it's just not for everyone, is it? We are the lucky few. The chosen
>ones! We get to benefit from the wisdom and tutelage of the master. We
>enjoy the fellowship of the list. It's beautiful really.
Careful my friend. Do you suffer from sleepless nights
'cause yer head is busy considering a problem? Would you
rather buy a new tool than go to a ball game? Are the drawers
and shelves in your shop stuffed with junque you picked up
at garage sales and industrial surplus stores? You may be
a victim of "the disease" . . . now if some kid in your
family or perhaps the neighborhood is really lucky, he/she
may "catch the disease" from you. If that happens, you'll
find yourself compelled to take on yet another "project" in
an already too-full schedule.
I'll suggest that few projects offer greater opportunity
for satisfaction and excitement than to see someone
come thorough a door you've opened and then watch them
run way out ahead of you.
I visited my most cherished teacher in California a few
years after I graduated from high school and he left Boeing
for AeroJet General. I'll never forget the disappointment on
his face when I confessed to having bailed on college.
I don't think anyone had higher hopes for me than did he.
I've been ever mindful of that look on his face and vowed
to make sure his faith and efforts on my behalf were not wasted.
Of all the people who I might wish to visit with today, it
would be him. He succumbed to cancer a few years after I saw
him last. He is gone but never forgotten.
It's my observation that the terminal phase of "the disease"
is to become fondly remembered as friend and teacher. The
longer the terminal phase lasts the better . . . so start soon.
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people |
At 03:35 PM 1/29/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter
>offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable
>to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like.
Tim, at the risk of fielding accusations of being a "wet-blanket",
I'll suggest that you look over a conversation I tried to have
with Greg a few years ago. The exchange along with supporting
documents are posted at:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html
I studied what could be deduced from the description he offered
in his "brochure" but he steadfastly refused to discuss
technical details or design philosophy. Know that the
product as illustrated suffers from a variety of mechanical
and electrical shortcomings. He may have refined the design
since I attempted to discuss it with him, so perhaps it has
been improved. For obvious reasons, we're not communicating
about it much these days.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 32
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|
I'm pleased to inform the List that I've already received
a response to an inquiry I mailed to Steve Klodd at Plane Power
this morning.
A copy of the exchange has been posted at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Alternators/Plane_Power/70129A_Plane-Power_SKlodd.pdf
In a nutshell, Steve tells us that the 5A breaker illustrated in
their wiring diagram at . . .
http://plane-power.com/images/AL12_EI70%20Wiring.pdf
. . . does carry field excitation current. Further, the
OV protection module does pull down on this breaker to
"crowbar" it open and bring a misbehaving alternator
to heel.
Further, this information confirms that operating the
"Alternator Field" switch provides any-time, any
conditions, any-reason, zero-risk ON/OFF control of
the alternator which is consistent with conventions
adopted for engine driven power sources on aircraft
since day one.
I'm pleased to make Steve's acquaintance and will
endeavor to expand on this initiative. I'm equally
pleased to know that my this particular product would
live and operate happily in any system I would craft.
I confidently endorse Plane-Power's operating philosophy
for this product.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people |
I have a hard copy. I might be able to scan it if you would like.
Lamar
N969LS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Andres" <tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:35 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people
> <tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
>
> Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter
> offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable
> to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like.
> Thanks, Tim Andres
> Cozy MK IV
> Redding, Ca
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Aircraft wiring for smart people |
Thanks, Bob....I wanted to have a look at it, I like the idea of having a
central hub where most everything terminates. Seems to simplify things a
great deal, or at least you can guess where most if not all of your troubles
reside! BTW I looked for a long while on your site for that article and was
not able to find it, thanks for the link.
Tim Andres
>
>Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter
>offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable
>to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like.
Tim, at the risk of fielding accusations of being a "wet-blanket",
I'll suggest that you look over a conversation I tried to have
with Greg a few years ago. The exchange along with supporting
documents are posted at:
--
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls |
In a message dated 01/29/2007 11:43:39 AM Central Standard Time,
VE3LVO@rac.ca writes:
The series is informative, factual, accurate and informal so that if you
have a specific problem, it'll probably be sorted out before you can ask
>>>>>>
FWIW, here's my take on the subject:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/?q=classes/workshops
Go. Learn. Execute.
Mark - Z-11 RV-6A, confirmed Nuckollhead & do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Aircraft wiring for smart people |
At 07:57 PM 1/29/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Thanks, Bob....I wanted to have a look at it, I like the idea of having a
>central hub where most everything terminates. Seems to simplify things a
>great deal, or at least you can guess where most if not all of your troubles
>reside! BTW I looked for a long while on your site for that article and was
>not able to find it, thanks for the link.
>Tim Andres
Hmmmm . . . hey folks, there's a Google Site Search window
on the front page of the website as well as the What's New
page. I've used it extensively myself for finding stuff
on an increasing stack of stuff.
Tim, a site search on "richter" produced 11 hits. Not
trying to rag you my friend . . . just raise awareness
of this handy tool.
Bob. . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls |
At 11:35 PM 1/29/2007 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 01/29/2007 11:43:39 AM Central Standard Time,
>VE3LVO@rac.ca writes:
>The series is informative, factual, accurate and informal so that if you
>have a specific problem, it'll probably be sorted out before you can ask
>
> >>>>>>
>FWIW, here's my take on the subject:
>
><http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/?q=classes/workshops>http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/?q=classes/workshops
>
>Go. Learn. Execute.
Hmmm . . . that WAS a surrealistic experience. It was
hard to keep my head on the rest of the task that morning
after seeing and knowing that those brilliant white streaks
in the Texas sky were the remains of fellow aviators. In
retrospect however, I would hope that sudden news of my own
demise would not impede anyone from getting on with the
task. We all know that there are risks associated with
any endeavor. I'd much rather meet my end doing what
I love as opposed to being t-boned in an intersection
by a drunk. At the same time, I'm a bit chagrined to
consider that if I bought it in an aviation accident,
that a perfectly good airplane may have been munched
as a result of some personal ineptitude. But the odds
are these ol' bones are going to give it up in bed.
Bottom line is that we can best honor those who go before
us best by exploiting what we've learned from their
contributions. To be both good students and teachers
so that risks remain acceptably low while our confidence
and numbers continue to grow.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 38
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| Subject: | Aircraft wiring for smart people |
This isn't the first time I couldn't find my butt with both hands...Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:57 PM 1/29/2007 -0800, you wrote:
<tim2542@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Thanks, Bob....I wanted to have a look at it, I like the idea of having a
>central hub where most everything terminates. Seems to simplify things a
>great deal, or at least you can guess where most if not all of your
troubles
>reside! BTW I looked for a long while on your site for that article and was
>not able to find it, thanks for the link.
>Tim Andres
Hmmmm . . . hey folks, there's a Google Site Search window
on the front page of the website as well as the What's New
page. I've used it extensively myself for finding stuff
on an increasing stack of stuff.
Tim, a site search on "richter" produced 11 hits. Not
trying to rag you my friend . . . just raise awareness
of this handy tool.
Bob. . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
--
--
Message 39
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| Subject: | To buy or not to buy, that is the question |
Dave, apparently the folks at Google have the same philosophy, right down to
sleeping facilities!
Bobv
A35 Bonanza
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave
N6030X
Sent: 30 Jan 2007 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: To buy or not to buy, that is the question
--> <N6030X@DaveMorris.com>
Bob, when I was managing a software company that was moving into a new
building, we designed in 2 unusual rooms:
1. A complete laundry room with a washer, dryer, sink, ironing board, hooks,
cabinets, hangers, etc.
2. A children's play room, complete with miscellaneous toys
The theory was that we had a bunch of brilliant programmers who enjoyed
coding, and if they had time on a Saturday afternoon to do their laundry but
could also do some coding while they were waiting for the washer or the
dryer, they would come to the office to do it. If they had kids, they would
bring them to the office to play while they did some playing of their own on
the computer. This was back in the days when few people could yet afford a
personal computer at home.
I personally thought it was brilliant, and it worked like a charm. Right up
to the time the management of the company was swapped out for some bean
counters who were more concerned with whether little Johnny would hurt
himself in the play room. Soon thereafter the company's doors were locked
at 17:01 every day, nobody came in on weekends, the brilliant team of
programmers dissolved, and I don't work there any more either.
Dave Morris
At 04:33 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote:
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>
>>As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a
>>project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it
>>seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it
>>as an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our
>>time very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building
>>airplanes!), then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is
>>cheaper to buy it then build it.
>
> This is usually the case . . . unless you're already skilled
> at the building part. On the other side, real education is
> truly expensive in terms of $time$ expended . . . often with
> no demonstrable expectation for return on investment.
>
> I'd hate to see a real spreadsheet on the $time$ I've expended
> purely for the fun of finding out something new or to try
> my hand at some new skill. I've often admitted to being
> "afflicted" with that strange disease where my vocation
> is also my avocation. I do this stuff for the boss under
> conditions that are often frustrating and then come home
> to do it some more where it's got to be fun or I wouldn't do it.
>
> I'm crafting a white paper for the new managers of
> Hawker-Beech dealing with the need for REAL IR&D
> facilities. The business case goes to several
> management issues but the one I like the most is to
> suggest that we (the company) should support an IR&D
> activity with tools, materials, facility and mentorship
> but to be utilized on the employee's OWN time. Shucks,
> everybody would show up if they had a work order.
>
> I've suggested that such a facility would be a valuable
> human resources "filter" . . . I would guess that out
> of 900 or so engineers and perhaps 1,000 more technical
> staff, there are perhaps 50-100 folks who have "the
> disease". I'm telling them that it would be useful
> to KNOW who those folks are and what they're REALLY
> good at. An IR&D facility provide a means by which
> folks could exercise their skills EVERY DAY. Further,
> we'd acquire valuable insight into skills that
> the most motivated individuals in our employ can bring
> to bear on the company's fortunes.
>
> The best thing is that such a facility can be operated
> on perhaps 2-5% of our total engineering overhead
> budget. A pittance.
>
> This is a generic document intended to identify and
> exploit simple ideas. I'll be pleased to share it
> with the List and get your feedback. Further, it's
> my hope that many of you may find the document useful
> in your own workplaces. Watch this space.
>
> Bob . . .
>
> ----------------------------------------
> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
> ( what ever you do must be exercised )
> ( EVERY day . . . )
> ( R. L. Nuckolls III )
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
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