---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/29/07: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:26 AM - Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 05:31 AM - Re: push to talk switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 05:38 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Ken) 4. 06:16 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:32 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 6. 08:16 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 7. 09:07 AM - Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs (Dennis Jones) 8. 09:15 AM - Fuel Flow measurement (Eric Parlow) 9. 09:20 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Ken) 10. 09:40 AM - Scuse me - bare Nuckolls (Fergus Kyle) 11. 09:49 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Bruce Gray) 12. 09:52 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 10:03 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 10:05 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Brett Ferrell) 16. 10:06 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 17. 10:08 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement () 18. 10:33 AM - Re: Fuel Flow measurement (Eric Parlow) 19. 11:24 AM - Re: Alternator mistake (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 11:41 AM - Re: 8awg line to forrest of tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 12:31 PM - Leading edge ideas and inventions (Gaye and Vaughn) 22. 01:14 PM - Re: 8awg line to forest of tabs (Dennis Jones) 23. 01:45 PM - To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Chuck Jensen) 24. 02:20 PM - Anus is as anus does (Fergus Kyle) 25. 02:34 PM - Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 02:54 PM - Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Dave N6030X) 27. 03:36 PM - Aircraft wiring for smart people (Tim Andres) 28. 05:03 PM - Re: the fellowship of the list (Rodney Dunham) 29. 06:18 PM - Re: The case for an IR&D facility . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 30. 06:41 PM - Re: the fellowship of the list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 31. 06:47 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 07:22 PM - Plane Power (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 07:36 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Lamar Lawson) 34. 08:01 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Tim Andres) 35. 08:40 PM - Re: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 36. 08:47 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 37. 09:25 PM - Re: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 38. 10:01 PM - Re: Aircraft wiring for smart people (Tim Andres) 39. 10:04 PM - Re: To buy or not to buy, that is the question (Bob Verwey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs At 11:16 PM 1/28/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > >Bob > >My aircraft has a tandem seating configuration. I want to have the forrest >of tabs toward the back of the aircraft, the location of all the electric >stuff. I would rather run the #2 from the battery to the firewall pass >through bolt with out breaking the line to attach to the forrest of tab >bolt. Can I run a #8 from the negative post of the battery directly to the >forrest of tabs and run the #2 to the firewall without a break in the >line? Also what options are there to attach the #8 to the same lug as the #2? > >Thanks >Jonsey I'm having trouble visualizing your description. What kind of airplane are we talking about? Do I understand that you want separate locations for the firewall pass-thru bolt and the forest-of-tabs? Hmmmm . . . I think I'm getting it. Is this a metal airplane with a rear mounted battery, midships ground block and a ground stud on the firewall? Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: push to talk switch At 05:48 PM 1/28/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi, > I am normally on the Kolb list and one of the guys there suggested > that I could find the answer to one of my problems here. I have a grip on > my stick that has five buttons, one of which is supposed to be a push to > talk button. However it only has two connections on it. The other buttons > control my EIS. I had thought that a I-Com push to talk switch was merely > a momentary switch. Correct. ALL PTT buttons are normally open, momentary operation. > When I cut into the wire I find a red, green, white and black wire. The > red and green show continuity when the button is pushed. Then use these two wires. > The white and black also are a closed circuit. I really don't want to > screw things up, can anybody enlighten me as to the best way to hook this up. Didn't your stick grip come with a schematic? If not, contact the suppler and suggest that his product is NOT ready for prime-time until it's shipped with lucid, tell-all instructions. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:39 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake If the OV shutdown is simply a crowbar on the IGN terminal that pretty much means that I would not trust it either. Better than nothing maybe but... Can you confirm where that wire goes Frank? Ken Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > > > >Hello Bob, > >I installed the smaller 60Amp unit than the one shown in the link you >provided, Not sure what form factor it is but it is considerably smaller >than the 70A unit shown (which incidently looks identical to the ND >Toyota Camry unit I replaced). The reason I fitted this one was that was >all that Van's had in stock and should be big enough even with the dual >electric fuel pump/IFR installation in my airplane. > >I do note the voltage regulator is set a little low at around 13.7V. > >The crowbar unit on the back appears to just have small single wire that >presumably just collapses the field current. To be honest I was little >reluctant to rely on this device so I wired it in series with my >existing OV protection the basis of which is one of Eric's big >contactors. > >Can you turn the unit off?...Hmm, well the instructions do not >specifically mention this. They do say you can turn the unit ON by >energising the filed but I did not see that you could turn it >off...Personally I would not try to do this unless it was an emergency. > >I'll have a look in the hangar for the instructions, I do know they were >pretty sparse electriclly speaking. > >Incidently different topic, the backup SD-8 alternator cranks out quite >a bit more than 8amps...I can reliably run almost evrything in the >airplane...i.e one FI electric fuel pump, GNS430 and an audio >panel...The battery volts will dip below 12v on a transmit but apart >from that it is enough to drive home if don't use any lights. I would >say the unit makes nearer 12A. > >Frank > > > Incidentally Frank, which model of PP alternator did you > install? Would you be willing to copy/scan the installation > data that comes with it and send it to me? I note that > some models on their website speaks of ov votlage protection > and they've even used the (ugh!) word "crowabar" in the > context of speaking about ov protection. The photo at > >http://www.plane-power.com/images/AL12_EI70%20Wiring.pdf > > shows what appears to be an add-on to the back of their > product for the purpose of providing OV protection. > I'm curious as to whether or not you can turn the alternator > OFF by way of the "field switch" after it has once been > turned ON. > > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake At 10:39 PM 1/28/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Hello Bob, > >I installed the smaller 60Amp unit than the one shown in the link you >provided, Not sure what form factor it is but it is considerably smaller >than the 70A unit shown (which incidently looks identical to the ND >Toyota Camry unit I replaced). The reason I fitted this one was that was >all that Van's had in stock and should be big enough even with the dual >electric fuel pump/IFR installation in my airplane. > >I do note the voltage regulator is set a little low at around 13.7V. That's disappointing. 13.7 will EVENTUALLY replenish the charge in a SVLA battery but the recharge time to 99% of capacity can be 3-10x longer than at 14.2 or even 14.6 volts. Their website is remarkably silent on the topic of voltage setpoints for both OBAM aviation and TC aviation products. Nonetheless, if they've been granted permission to install on TC aircraft, they're no doubt in possession of data which describes the voltage regulation characteristics of their PMA products . . . I would expect the OBAM aviation products to be identical. Drop them a note and ask. You're a $paying$ customer. It's not an unreasonable question. >The crowbar unit on the back appears to just have small single wire that >presumably just collapses the field current. To be honest I was little >reluctant to rely on this device so I wired it in series with my >existing OV protection the basis of which is one of Eric's big >contactors. > >Can you turn the unit off?...Hmm, well the instructions do not >specifically mention this. They do say you can turn the unit ON by >energising the filed but I did not see that you could turn it >off...Personally I would not try to do this unless it was an emergency. Unless there's a b-lead disconnection device like that shown in Figure Z-24 and Z-24a, there is no risk to the alternator to attempt a shutdown via the "ALT FIELD" switch. If this switch functions as we've come to expect from traditional installations, the alternator will simply stop producing power and resume when it's closed. This test can be accomplished at low rpm, everything turned off and by watching the voltmeter to wiggle when the switch is operated. >I'll have a look in the hangar for the instructions, I do know they were >pretty sparse electriclly speaking. Thank you for sharing this information. I've written Steve Klodd, head chef at Plane Power to inquire about the functionality of product features cited on his website. We shall see . . . >Incidently different topic, the backup SD-8 alternator cranks out quite >a bit more than 8amps...I can reliably run almost evrything in the >airplane...i.e one FI electric fuel pump, GNS430 and an audio >panel...The battery volts will dip below 12v on a transmit but apart >from that it is enough to drive home if don't use any lights. I would >say the unit makes nearer 12A. Also interesting. I've often thought that the capabilities of the SD-8 would drift upward with time. The availability of high-performance magnets continues to improve and I've always thought that the magnet assemblies shipped to B&C might just become better with technological age. You may well be experiencing this phenomenon. I'll ask Tim about it the next time we talk. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" IP rights do more than protect a company's product, it also protects the company itself. For every ten scientists that stand up and review a product saying it is safe, any ambulance chaser can find another 10 that will say it will kill you just being in the same room. I'm not a scientist, lawyer, and I certainly didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, nor am I criticizing Bob so let's not go there. I just want to make sure people don't look down on a company if they don't want to put their IP under outside scrutiny. If someone is concerned about going with a IVR, use an EVR. PlanePower sells both with the option of having a PMA'd alternator. My point is, make sure you have a full discussion with the vendor on their product and capabilities. Don't just take the word of an Internet mailing list. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:46 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions At 09:50 PM 1/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks for the comprehensive replies, Bob---it was certainly helpful to >understand your well thought out position. You are well aware, I am sure >though, that not all Aeroelectric website "clients" are as intensively >fascinated by the details of aircraft electrical system design down at the >molecular level that some others are. Like others here, I'm just a pilot >and flying airplanes, not designing them, is the part that interests >me. I know a lot about flying but not so much about "aviation" and hardly >anything at all about electrical system design except that I need one. I'll be the first to admit that the AeroElectric-List is not everyone's ideal information source. It was intended from the first to be leading edge for new ideas and inventions . . . and to stand up and denounce bad science along with an explanation as to why. There are plenty of unfiltered venues that dispense traditional data not the least of which are most of the books offered by EAA bookstores and elsewhere. Nothing wrong with those efforts. They've helped the vast majority of builders get their project airborne. > >Those who fit that description may not be interested in the details but >still want to make a sound decision about a mature, reliable electrical >system for their airplanes in order to best take advantage of the growing >technical advances in avionics and navigation equipment available >today. Many are anxiously awaiting your "fix" for IR alternators but >there are others who probably think they've already found one in Plane Power. Nobody would be happier than I to see someone offering modern alternators that work within the design goals I've established for myself. There is nothing better for the community at large than to have honorable, capable competition. >That seems to be the big unanswered question. Has Plane Power put the >genie back in the bottle or not?? They say they have---has anyone seen or >produced independant verification of their assertions? If so, I suspect a >small stampede will have just begun--- I'll contact Plane Power and see if they'll share any of the details necessary for a critical design review. Most companies are reluctant because they fear some risks to loss of proprietary information. A silly notion when you get right down to it. I have reverse engineered dozens of products but not for the purpose of cloning their work . . . the goal was to do BETTER. I've never dissected a product that I and my compatriots could not improve upon. Further, for all I know, folks who are my most vociferous detractors may have already poisoned the waters at Plane Power. I think that happened at Niagara Airparts . . . never could get those folks to discuss their products. This is also silly. I have a substantial following and it only makes sense that we should be cooperating in a win-win effort. So, my personal approach is to see how products perform in the field. If it makes sense, I'll craft an offering with a goal my competition feel compelled to emulate me instead of the other way around. Therefore, I'd be pleased if anyone can post first-hand experiences of Plane Power's products and customer service right here on the List. >Warm regards and again, thanks for all your hard work in this arena... Couldn't do it if it wasn't MOSTLY fun! Thank you for the kind words. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hard to tell Ken but it is a very small wire that appears to go to the center of the machine so my assumption is that it goes directly to one of the slip ring brushes, the other end is bolted presumably to a contact that goes to the opposite brush or maybe the case...I'm thinking it shorts out (or grounds) the field coil. I'm definatly not an electrical expert so I may well be a little off here. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:41 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake If the OV shutdown is simply a crowbar on the IGN terminal that pretty much means that I would not trust it either. Better than nothing maybe but... Can you confirm where that wire goes Frank? Ken Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:21 AM PST US From: "Dennis Jones" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs Yes to both questions. Steel tube and rag. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:25 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs At 11:16 PM 1/28/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > >Bob > >My aircraft has a tandem seating configuration. I want to have the forrest >of tabs toward the back of the aircraft, the location of all the electric >stuff. I would rather run the #2 from the battery to the firewall pass >through bolt with out breaking the line to attach to the forrest of tab >bolt. Can I run a #8 from the negative post of the battery directly to the >forrest of tabs and run the #2 to the firewall without a break in the >line? Also what options are there to attach the #8 to the same lug as the #2? > >Thanks >Jonsey I'm having trouble visualizing your description. What kind of airplane are we talking about? Do I understand that you want separate locations for the firewall pass-thru bolt and the forest-of-tabs? Hmmmm . . . I think I'm getting it. Is this a metal airplane with a rear mounted battery, midships ground block and a ground stud on the firewall? Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:15:02 AM PST US From: "Eric Parlow" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return. I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the return flow. The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal. Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses? i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz). The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow input. ERic-- RV-10, N104EP ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:33 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake You are arousing my curiousity for sure though. If it bypasses the silicon and crowbars directly to the field windings, that would make it a totally acceptable one time OV protection in my mind. I think that would be as good or better than I have with Z-24 if it limits alternator damage to the voltage regulator. More money than my locally obtained alternator but easier to install. One nice thing about Z-24 is that I can test the OV function with the engine off without damaging anything. I am looking forward to Bob's AEC9004 for a universal solution though. If he can demonstrate stalling alternators without damaging them that would be marvelous. Ken Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > >Hard to tell Ken but it is a very small wire that appears to go to the >center of the machine so my assumption is that it goes directly to one >of the slip ring brushes, the other end is bolted presumably to a >contact that goes to the opposite brush or maybe the case...I'm thinking >it shorts out (or grounds) the field coil. > >I'm definatly not an electrical expert so I may well be a little off >here. > >Frank > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken >Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:41 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake > > >If the OV shutdown is simply a crowbar on the IGN terminal that pretty >much means that I would not trust it either. Better than nothing maybe >but... Can you confirm where that wire goes Frank? >Ken > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:01 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls "From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Sonoma CA seminar date is set . . Dr. Dee and I will be visiting the NoCal wine country on April 21/22 to deliver a presentation in the facilities of EAA chapter 1268. Sign-up sheet is posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/seminars/Sonoma.html" This is for those who might think of attending........ I was responsible for suggesting Bob's presentation to our Chapter (60 members, half active) - 'way up here in Canada - almost two years ago. The reaction ran to "there aren't enough of us". "it costs too much" (US$), "there's no room", etc etc. Well, we had Bob's largest audience to date, people from Tennessee, New York and Montreal if I remember correctly. that two days was the best weekend most of our gang spent by popular reaction. Not a whimper I know of - and we asked... The series is informative, factual, accurate and informal so that if you have a specific problem, it'll probably be sorted out before you can ask This is an unsolicitted email - I gain nothing by it - I've already learned more than I thought - and it was worth it (even if it was bigger $). Go. Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:16 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement Eric, Does your fuel system have a return line from the distribution spider back to the tank? Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Parlow Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return. I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the return flow. The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal. Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses? i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz). The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow input. ERic-- RV-10, N104EP ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:39 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" YES! Go to the Matronics website, there you will find a device that does exactly that. The output from this device can be read by any counter as if it were a single flow meter, Dynon for example will read this net fuel flow directly. Cheers Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Parlow Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:07 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement --> I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return. I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the return flow. The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal. Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses? i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz). The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow input. ERic-- RV-10, N104EP ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Leading edge ideas and inventions At 08:31 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > > IP rights do more than protect a company's product, it also protects >the company itself. For every ten scientists that stand up and review a >product saying it is safe, any ambulance chaser can find another 10 that >will say it will kill you just being in the same room. > > I'm not a scientist, lawyer, and I certainly didn't sleep at a Holiday >Inn Express last night, nor am I criticizing Bob so let's not go there. >I just want to make sure people don't look down on a company if they >don't want to put their IP under outside scrutiny. If someone is >concerned about going with a IVR, use an EVR. PlanePower sells both >with the option of having a PMA'd alternator. My point is, make sure >you have a full discussion with the vendor on their product and >capabilities. Don't just take the word of an Internet mailing list. Absolutely! But there is NO excuse whatsoever to withhold any system integration, performance, limits or operational data on any product. I'm always amazed at how little information that suppliers of products are able to supply in response to perfectly reasonable questions. I suspect most data is not forthcoming due to ignorance on the part of the person(s) tasked with customer service. The intellectual property issues are certainly valid concerns . . . for original work. But most companies are basically lazy: "Let's throw the proprietary information stamp on everything." This nicely relieves anyone of responsibility (and indirectly liability) for having to make a personal decision. The end result from this policy-n-procedures cloaking of all data under black blankets is that customer service folks are handcuffed. Customers are deprived of information they need to make a considered buying decision and to use the product after purchase. Once you sell a product, virtually everything to be known about it is now loose in the wild. It's only a matter of $time$ for anyone who wishes to dissect and discover its "secrets". Interestingly enough, of all the products I've dissected, I've discovered no novel techniques applied. Further, the techniques were so unimaginative or outdated that it was no big deal to craft newer and very aggressive competition for that product. I'm only suggesting that the $time$ most organizations spend to "protect" themselves is actually wasted effort and in many instances, counter-productive to their success in the marketplace. Even the much touted 'patent' is of suspect value. Once you HAVE a patent for which you've invested much $time$, you're obligated to protect it. So suppose GM decides to step on some little company with a whippy but patented idea. In our system where losers are not required to pay all litigation costs, what are the odds that Small Parts, Inc. will prevail against an onslaught from Big Parts, Inc? Remember the guy named Tucker? The most successful ventures have been those who took old, proven, public domain ideas and crafted them into a product with exemplary performance at a fair value backed by good customer service . . . like that guy named Van. In no way was I attempting to belittle the need for keeping truly original work as private as practical . . . but lazy organizations shoot themselves in both feet and between the eyes by failing to observe the prime directive of successful businesses: "Make sure that a customer who owns your product is looking forward to buying a replacement for that product from YOU after a long and pleasing experience. There is no better advertisement than having that customer showing the product to others and speaking favorably about it throughout its lifetime." Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:49 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Ya, for me I have come to regard the $400 alternator as almost sacrificial, as long as it does not fry my $6000 GNS 430!..>And especially as long as it doesn't do it when I need it in hard IMC. It seems alternators have very low failure rates generally (and I have an SD8 backup) then a resettable alternator is a pretty low priority for me...Would I fly 500 miles home on an SD8 backup in IFR? Probably not, but I might wait a day and do it VFR then send the alt away for repair upon my return home. My second error (apart from the grounding thing) was using a cheap rebuild for what has become a critical application (I'm doing my IFR training in the RV7a). The fact it took me about a day to fabricate all the brackets, source a suitable belt etc and $400 is looking pretty inexpensive...:) Anyway some rambling thoughts Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:19 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake You are arousing my curiousity for sure though. If it bypasses the silicon and crowbars directly to the field windings, that would make it a totally acceptable one time OV protection in my mind. I think that would be as good or better than I have with Z-24 if it limits alternator damage to the voltage regulator. More money than my locally obtained alternator but easier to install. One nice thing about Z-24 is that I can test the OV function with the engine off without damaging anything. I am looking forward to Bob's AEC9004 for a universal solution though. If he can demonstrate stalling alternators without damaging them that would be marvelous. Ken ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:17 AM PST US From: Brett Ferrell Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement Eric, The E/1 has this function built into it. You can find out more about it at the BMA website, or give them a call, but you use the fuel flow inputs as A+B or A-B combinations. This is described on page 29 of the Installation Manual V2.16H http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/download_efislite/efis_lite_install_guide_215.pdf Brett Quoting Eric Parlow : > > > I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return. > > I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the > return flow. > The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal. > > Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses > from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses? > > i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz). > > The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow > input. > > ERic-- > RV-10, N104EP > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Contact Gary Newstead, He has an Eggenfellner with a Blue Mountain, and he built a sensor for fuel flow for the BMA and is offering them for sale through Jan's site. Dan N289DT -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Parlow Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return. I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the return flow. The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal. Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses? i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz). The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow input. ERic-- RV-10, N104EP ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement From: Hello Eric "Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses?" May I suggest you read a thread on Europa Newsgroup about just this: http://www.europaowners.org/ Scroll to Matronics Listserver Have a look at: Europa-List: Re: Fuel Flow Instrumentation and: Europa-List: Fuel Flow Instrumentation and: Europa-List: Fuel flow for 914 Ron P. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:04 AM PST US From: "Eric Parlow" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement Bruce, The current Lycoming IO-540-D4 mechanical fuel system does not have/require a fuel return. I'm building in the return capability for the future electric fuel system and/or the diesel engine. ERic-- RV-10, N104EP ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement Eric, Does your fuel system have a return line from the distribution spider back to the tank? Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric Parlow Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 12:07 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuel Flow measurement I need to measure fuel consumption in a system with a fuel return. I have one Flo-scan 231 for supply flow and plan to add a second for the return flow. The Flo-scan 231 gives 20,000 pluses/gal. Is there an electronic device which can subtract the return fuel flow pluses from the supply pluses to give consumption pulses? i.e. 20 gal/hr flow gives 400,000 pulses/hr or 111 pluses/sec(hz). The measuring device is the BMA EFIS/one which has a 0-220hz fuel flow input. ERic-- RV-10, N104EP ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:24:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator mistake At 11:59 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >My second error (apart from the grounding thing) was using a cheap >rebuild for what has become a critical application (I'm doing my IFR >training in the RV7a). The fact it took me about a day to fabricate all >the brackets, source a suitable belt etc and $400 is looking pretty >inexpensive...:) > >Anyway some rambling thoughts Not rambling thoughts but critical design review. I don't know how many builders have written or called about sources for materials to accomplish some portion of their project DIY. I always try to ask, "Are you doing this because you WANT to learn how it's done and enjoy doing it for the experience . . . or is it to save money." More often than not, the answer is, "to save money". I've come to realize that our rudimentary commodity of exchange is $time$ . . . and when one considers the total cost of acquisition and ownership in terms of total $time$, they quite often find that it would have been better to spend their $time$ acquiring cash at something they're good at than to spend more $time$ in an attempt to get something new done right the first time. >You are arousing my curiousity for sure though. If it bypasses the >silicon and crowbars directly to the field windings, that would make it >a totally acceptable one time OV protection in my mind. I think that >would be as good or better than I have with Z-24 if it limits >alternator damage to the voltage regulator. More money than my locally >obtained alternator but easier to install. One nice thing about Z-24 is >that I can test the OV function with the engine off without damaging >anything. You can test Z-24 with the engine running. Just run at ramp rpm and wait until the battery is recharged after cranking the engine. The magnitude of the load dump transient is a function of alternator output current and rpm at the time the b-lead opens. A lightly stressed alternator doesn't "bump" vigorously. Note on page 2 of http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Semiconductors/MC33092A.pdf . . . the regulator is spec'd to stand off a load dump transient of 40v for 125 mS. I think this is typical of the industry and mirrors DO-160 recommendations for 14v systems. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs At 10:34 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Yes to both questions. Steel tube and rag. Hmmmm . . . Okay. If it were my airplane I'd "float" the forest-of-tabs from the airframe at whatever location you choose to mount it. Bring 2AWG to the ground block from the battery. Bring a second 2AWG from ground block to a thru-bolt at the firewall where the crankcase jumper picks up a ground for the crankcase. This is to accommodate systems that might have grounded transducers at the crankcase but get their power grounds at the forest of tabs. Can you elaborate why you're not interested in putting the tabs on the firewall? I'm still thinking this is electrically better even if it means some ground wires are a bit longer. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:12 PM PST US From: "Gaye and Vaughn" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Leading edge ideas and inventions You said " There is no better advertisement than having that customer showing the product to others and speaking favorably about it throughout its lifetime." Bob . . ." All that I can say to that is "AMEN Brother". Unfortunately, so many companies are losing sight of that principle that reputation has become a bigger influance on my buying decisions than price. I have often not bought a product because I asked a question to which I knew the answer, but was given a line of obvious BS because the contact person didn't want to take the time to answer the question or did not know the answer and was too lazy to find out or didn't care to find out. How can you not want to find the answer? The downside of this curiosity can be a very long build time. This is where the shades of gray inter the picture. Sorry Bob, you poked a raw nerve of mine. Vaughn N914VA (60% to 80% completed, depending on the gathering of answers) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:16 PM PST US From: "Dennis Jones" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forest of tabs That basically is the reason why. I just didn't want to run a bunch of grounds from the back all the way to the front. Just trying different ideas. As usual you shed light on things with the transducer question. It is a simple system, so I would have to think about if it applies, good point non the less. Thanks again Jonsey -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 1:40 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: 8awg line to forrest of tabs At 10:34 AM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote: > > >Yes to both questions. Steel tube and rag. Hmmmm . . . Okay. If it were my airplane I'd "float" the forest-of-tabs from the airframe at whatever location you choose to mount it. Bring 2AWG to the ground block from the battery. Bring a second 2AWG from ground block to a thru-bolt at the firewall where the crankcase jumper picks up a ground for the crankcase. This is to accommodate systems that might have grounded transducers at the crankcase but get their power grounds at the forest of tabs. Can you elaborate why you're not interested in putting the tabs on the firewall? I'm still thinking this is electrically better even if it means some ground wires are a bit longer. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:45:00 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: To buy or not to buy, that is the question From: "Chuck Jensen" Bob wrote... Not rambling thoughts but critical design review. I don't know how many builders have written or called about sources for materials to accomplish some portion of their project DIY. I always try to ask, "Are you doing this because you WANT to learn how it's done and enjoy doing it for the experience . . . or is it to save money." More often than not, the answer is, "to save money". I've come to realize that our rudimentary commodity of exchange is $time$ . . . and when one considers the total cost of acquisition and ownership in terms of total $time$, they quite often find that it would have been better to spend their $time$ acquiring cash at something they're good at than to spend more $time$ in an attempt to get something new done right the first time. As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it as an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our time very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building airplanes!), then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is cheaper to buy it then build it. Chuck ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:59 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anus is as anus does "www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Jack_Tab_Soldering/Jack_Tab_Soldering.html Rod For the totally anal out there, the joint shown in that link would have failed the soldering class I took at Community College oh-so-many years ago." For those who are not so "anal", I find Bob's example satisfies the need very well. There are Community Colleges and Community Colleges, and failing soldering class is not a serious item unless the instructor is limited to marking solder joints. "1) joint can be inspected to verify that there is good wet out of the wire and the connector ------------see picture 2 2) the joint has the mechanical strength of the hook -----------see picture 2 3) the joint is easily disassembled later by reflowing the solder. -----------is this a safety criterion? I undid connections just like Bob's for the hundreds of WW II surplus aircraft radio bits that formed my first transmitter with a solder iron and snippers - and the point is...........? Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: To buy or not to buy, that is the question >As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a >project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it >seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it as >an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our time >very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building airplanes!), >then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is cheaper to buy >it then build it. This is usually the case . . . unless you're already skilled at the building part. On the other side, real education is truly expensive in terms of $time$ expended . . . often with no demonstrable expectation for return on investment. I'd hate to see a real spreadsheet on the $time$ I've expended purely for the fun of finding out something new or to try my hand at some new skill. I've often admitted to being "afflicted" with that strange disease where my vocation is also my avocation. I do this stuff for the boss under conditions that are often frustrating and then come home to do it some more where it's got to be fun or I wouldn't do it. I'm crafting a white paper for the new managers of Hawker-Beech dealing with the need for REAL IR&D facilities. The business case goes to several management issues but the one I like the most is to suggest that we (the company) should support an IR&D activity with tools, materials, facility and mentorship but to be utilized on the employee's OWN time. Shucks, everybody would show up if they had a work order. I've suggested that such a facility would be a valuable human resources "filter" . . . I would guess that out of 900 or so engineers and perhaps 1,000 more technical staff, there are perhaps 50-100 folks who have "the disease". I'm telling them that it would be useful to KNOW who those folks are and what they're REALLY good at. An IR&D facility provide a means by which folks could exercise their skills EVERY DAY. Further, we'd acquire valuable insight into skills that the most motivated individuals in our employ can bring to bear on the company's fortunes. The best thing is that such a facility can be operated on perhaps 2-5% of our total engineering overhead budget. A pittance. This is a generic document intended to identify and exploit simple ideas. I'll be pleased to share it with the List and get your feedback. Further, it's my hope that many of you may find the document useful in your own workplaces. Watch this space. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:42 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: To buy or not to buy, that is the question Bob, when I was managing a software company that was moving into a new building, we designed in 2 unusual rooms: 1. A complete laundry room with a washer, dryer, sink, ironing board, hooks, cabinets, hangers, etc. 2. A children's play room, complete with miscellaneous toys The theory was that we had a bunch of brilliant programmers who enjoyed coding, and if they had time on a Saturday afternoon to do their laundry but could also do some coding while they were waiting for the washer or the dryer, they would come to the office to do it. If they had kids, they would bring them to the office to play while they did some playing of their own on the computer. This was back in the days when few people could yet afford a personal computer at home. I personally thought it was brilliant, and it worked like a charm. Right up to the time the management of the company was swapped out for some bean counters who were more concerned with whether little Johnny would hurt himself in the play room. Soon thereafter the company's doors were locked at 17:01 every day, nobody came in on weekends, the brilliant team of programmers dissolved, and I don't work there any more either. Dave Morris At 04:33 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote: > > > >>As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a >>project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it >>seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it as >>an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our time >>very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building airplanes!), >>then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is cheaper to buy >>it then build it. > > This is usually the case . . . unless you're already skilled > at the building part. On the other side, real education is > truly expensive in terms of $time$ expended . . . often with > no demonstrable expectation for return on investment. > > I'd hate to see a real spreadsheet on the $time$ I've expended > purely for the fun of finding out something new or to try > my hand at some new skill. I've often admitted to being > "afflicted" with that strange disease where my vocation > is also my avocation. I do this stuff for the boss under > conditions that are often frustrating and then come home > to do it some more where it's got to be fun or I wouldn't do it. > > I'm crafting a white paper for the new managers of > Hawker-Beech dealing with the need for REAL IR&D > facilities. The business case goes to several > management issues but the one I like the most is to > suggest that we (the company) should support an IR&D > activity with tools, materials, facility and mentorship > but to be utilized on the employee's OWN time. Shucks, > everybody would show up if they had a work order. > > I've suggested that such a facility would be a valuable > human resources "filter" . . . I would guess that out > of 900 or so engineers and perhaps 1,000 more technical > staff, there are perhaps 50-100 folks who have "the > disease". I'm telling them that it would be useful > to KNOW who those folks are and what they're REALLY > good at. An IR&D facility provide a means by which > folks could exercise their skills EVERY DAY. Further, > we'd acquire valuable insight into skills that > the most motivated individuals in our employ can bring > to bear on the company's fortunes. > > The best thing is that such a facility can be operated > on perhaps 2-5% of our total engineering overhead > budget. A pittance. > > This is a generic document intended to identify and > exploit simple ideas. I'll be pleased to share it > with the List and get your feedback. Further, it's > my hope that many of you may find the document useful > in your own workplaces. Watch this space. > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) > ( what ever you do must be exercised ) > ( EVERY day . . . ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:59 PM PST US From: "Tim Andres" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like. Thanks, Tim Andres Cozy MK IV Redding, Ca -- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:23 PM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: the fellowship of the list Bob et al, For me, the issue is not time vs money. Of equal importance are quality and understanding! When I look at my buddies' airplanes I realize that my electrical system is far better than theirs! And it's not just "my plane's better than yours", but mine is the "best-I-know-how-to-do" with failure tolerance built in. When they are having electrical issues, I'm not! When they are suffering from EMI, I'm not! When their batteries are whipped, mine's not! And, when they are scratching their heads wondering what's causing a certain problem, I'm not! I know just what I've got, how it is supposed to work, how it might fail, and what to do about it when and if it does! Now that is a great confidence builder and I have only one man to thank for it, Bob Nuckolls! I tell everyone that will listen about the Aeroelectric Connection and this site. I show them all the neat and wonderfull electrical thingies built into my plane. They nod their heads in obvious approval and admiration and go on doing what they've always done :o( Well, it's just not for everyone, is it? We are the lucky few. The chosen ones! We get to benefit from the wisdom and tutelage of the master. We enjoy the fellowship of the list. It's beautiful really. Rodney in Tennessee Unabashed Nuckollhead _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live Spaces ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: The case for an IR&D facility . . . At 04:52 PM 1/29/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >Bob, when I was managing a software company that was moving into a new >building, we designed in 2 unusual rooms: >1. A complete laundry room with a washer, dryer, sink, ironing board, >hooks, cabinets, hangers, etc. >2. A children's play room, complete with miscellaneous toys > >The theory was that we had a bunch of brilliant programmers who enjoyed >coding, and if they had time on a Saturday afternoon to do their laundry >but could also do some coding while they were waiting for the washer or >the dryer, they would come to the office to do it. If they had kids, they >would bring them to the office to play while they did some playing of >their own on the computer. This was back in the days when few people >could yet afford a personal computer at home. > >I personally thought it was brilliant, and it worked like a charm. Right >up to the time the management of the company was swapped out for some bean >counters who were more concerned with whether little Johnny would hurt >himself in the play room. Soon thereafter the company's doors were locked >at 17:01 every day, nobody came in on weekends, the brilliant team of >programmers dissolved, and I don't work there any more either. Shucky darn! I thought I had an original thought here. Seriously though, thank you for the anecdote. I'll add it to my white paper. I hadn't thought about the expanded support for family matters. Good concept. For those on the List who are interested in such things download this .mp3 file at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Elings/Look_at_the_Big_Picture.mp3 This guy Elings is a modern day Edison, Kettering, King, Collins, etc. I work with folks who remember when Art Collins . . . http://www.collinsclubs.com/history/ . . . maintained an "open stockroom". If anyone needed some parts for a personal endeavor, have at it. Don't run the bin so low that it puts production at risk . . . if the bin looks low, get some more ordered. Same with Ed King . . . http://mcguinn1342.blogspot.com/2006/01/ed-king-story.html I have what I believe was the tenth King KY-90 transceiver that I found at OSH in '86. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012762.JPG http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Radios/P1012763.JPG It's s/n 110 and someone told me years ago that Ed started with #101. I'd like to believe that Ed may have personally touched this one before it left his fledgling operation in Olathe, Ks about the time I was graduating from high school! Same with Electromech where I worked in the 70's. Dr. Elings speaks of the open stockroom at Hewlett-Packard and at his fledgling company Digital Instruments. Smart managers understand that if you expect your creative folks to be really good at their jobs, they need to be exceedingly familiar with the ingredients that feed into recipes for success. Familiarity can come in ANY endeavor. At Beech we used to have at least 4 separate labs with equipment, parts, and support staff. We had the first multi-layer, plated-through hole ECB shop in the midwest. All that has slowly been eliminated with the notion that we (1) need to have documented tracking of all inventory and how it's expended and (2) don't do anything in house you can do out of house. The net result was predictable. Just as your byte-thrashers found other places to expand their horizons, our most prized carriers of "the disease" were spread out over the square mile in various project groups. The vast majority have retired. I'm amongst perhaps a dozen of the old guard that are left. However, from the attendees of my lunchtime learning sessions at H-B and Saturday morning mini-seminars at WSU, I've identified some promising young bucks who show distinct symptoms of "the disease". My efforts at Hawker-Beech are to rebuild the IR&D facility with even loftier goals. I've told our chief scientist that I want to spend my last years at H-B teaching. This would include troubleshooting problem aircraft . . . but with a budget that allows me to have at least one of the youngsters working right beside me. I suspect the chances of making it happen at my day-job are less than 50% . . . but I have plan-B. A good friend of mine is building a new production facility just two miles from H-B and right across the street from the new Aviation Technical Center being planned for Jabara Airport. The ideas behind having an IR&D facility were not lost on him. At lunch a few months ago, his eyes lit up and he offered to "sponsor" my IR&D facility if it didn't spool up at H-B. He realized that the expense of supporting a facility was trivial and would attract a cadre of individuals he'd love to have on staff but could not justify full time salaries. However, by having them regularly hang around HIS facility, he would have access to their talents on an as-needed basis. Smart man! One way or another, my activities in aviation are going to get out of the certification business and concentrate on teaching and new development. I've already had some conversation with folks who are running the new ATC across the street from my buddy's proposed factory. They're excited about supporting and exploiting the sunk-werks. I might teach part time for them as well. What ever I end up doing is going to be fun . . . or I'm not going to do it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: the fellowship of the list At 08:01 PM 1/29/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >Bob et al, > >For me, the issue is not time vs money. Of equal importance are quality >and understanding! > >When I look at my buddies' airplanes I realize that my electrical system >is far better than theirs! And it's not just "my plane's better than >yours", but mine is the "best-I-know-how-to-do" with failure tolerance >built in. > >When they are having electrical issues, I'm not! When they are suffering >from EMI, I'm not! When their batteries are whipped, mine's not! And, when >they are scratching their heads wondering what's causing a certain >problem, I'm not! > >I know just what I've got, how it is supposed to work, how it might fail, >and what to do about it when and if it does! Now that is a great >confidence builder and I have only one man to thank for it, Bob Nuckolls! > >I tell everyone that will listen about the Aeroelectric Connection and >this site. I show them all the neat and wonderfull electrical thingies >built into my plane. They nod their heads in obvious approval and >admiration and go on doing what they've always done :o( > >Well, it's just not for everyone, is it? We are the lucky few. The chosen >ones! We get to benefit from the wisdom and tutelage of the master. We >enjoy the fellowship of the list. It's beautiful really. Careful my friend. Do you suffer from sleepless nights 'cause yer head is busy considering a problem? Would you rather buy a new tool than go to a ball game? Are the drawers and shelves in your shop stuffed with junque you picked up at garage sales and industrial surplus stores? You may be a victim of "the disease" . . . now if some kid in your family or perhaps the neighborhood is really lucky, he/she may "catch the disease" from you. If that happens, you'll find yourself compelled to take on yet another "project" in an already too-full schedule. I'll suggest that few projects offer greater opportunity for satisfaction and excitement than to see someone come thorough a door you've opened and then watch them run way out ahead of you. I visited my most cherished teacher in California a few years after I graduated from high school and he left Boeing for AeroJet General. I'll never forget the disappointment on his face when I confessed to having bailed on college. I don't think anyone had higher hopes for me than did he. I've been ever mindful of that look on his face and vowed to make sure his faith and efforts on my behalf were not wasted. Of all the people who I might wish to visit with today, it would be him. He succumbed to cancer a few years after I saw him last. He is gone but never forgotten. It's my observation that the terminal phase of "the disease" is to become fondly remembered as friend and teacher. The longer the terminal phase lasts the better . . . so start soon. ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:18 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people At 03:35 PM 1/29/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter >offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable >to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like. Tim, at the risk of fielding accusations of being a "wet-blanket", I'll suggest that you look over a conversation I tried to have with Greg a few years ago. The exchange along with supporting documents are posted at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/richter/richter.html I studied what could be deduced from the description he offered in his "brochure" but he steadfastly refused to discuss technical details or design philosophy. Know that the product as illustrated suffers from a variety of mechanical and electrical shortcomings. He may have refined the design since I attempted to discuss it with him, so perhaps it has been improved. For obvious reasons, we're not communicating about it much these days. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Plane Power I'm pleased to inform the List that I've already received a response to an inquiry I mailed to Steve Klodd at Plane Power this morning. A copy of the exchange has been posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Alternators/Plane_Power/70129A_Plane-Power_SKlodd.pdf In a nutshell, Steve tells us that the 5A breaker illustrated in their wiring diagram at . . . http://plane-power.com/images/AL12_EI70%20Wiring.pdf . . . does carry field excitation current. Further, the OV protection module does pull down on this breaker to "crowbar" it open and bring a misbehaving alternator to heel. Further, this information confirms that operating the "Alternator Field" switch provides any-time, any conditions, any-reason, zero-risk ON/OFF control of the alternator which is consistent with conventions adopted for engine driven power sources on aircraft since day one. I'm pleased to make Steve's acquaintance and will endeavor to expand on this initiative. I'm equally pleased to know that my this particular product would live and operate happily in any system I would craft. I confidently endorse Plane-Power's operating philosophy for this product. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:30 PM PST US From: "Lamar Lawson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people I have a hard copy. I might be able to scan it if you would like. Lamar N969LS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Andres" Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 5:35 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people > > > Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter > offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable > to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like. > Thanks, Tim Andres > Cozy MK IV > Redding, Ca > > > -- > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:05 PM PST US From: "Tim Andres" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people Thanks, Bob....I wanted to have a look at it, I like the idea of having a central hub where most everything terminates. Seems to simplify things a great deal, or at least you can guess where most if not all of your troubles reside! BTW I looked for a long while on your site for that article and was not able to find it, thanks for the link. Tim Andres > >Hey folks, does anyone have a copy of the PCB artwork file Greg Richter >offers in his work " Aircraft wiring for smart people"? I have been unable >to reach him via email and would like to see what the board looks like. Tim, at the risk of fielding accusations of being a "wet-blanket", I'll suggest that you look over a conversation I tried to have with Greg a few years ago. The exchange along with supporting documents are posted at: -- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:04 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls In a message dated 01/29/2007 11:43:39 AM Central Standard Time, VE3LVO@rac.ca writes: The series is informative, factual, accurate and informal so that if you have a specific problem, it'll probably be sorted out before you can ask >>>>>> FWIW, here's my take on the subject: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/?q=classes/workshops Go. Learn. Execute. Mark - Z-11 RV-6A, confirmed Nuckollhead & do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people At 07:57 PM 1/29/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Thanks, Bob....I wanted to have a look at it, I like the idea of having a >central hub where most everything terminates. Seems to simplify things a >great deal, or at least you can guess where most if not all of your troubles >reside! BTW I looked for a long while on your site for that article and was >not able to find it, thanks for the link. >Tim Andres Hmmmm . . . hey folks, there's a Google Site Search window on the front page of the website as well as the What's New page. I've used it extensively myself for finding stuff on an increasing stack of stuff. Tim, a site search on "richter" produced 11 hits. Not trying to rag you my friend . . . just raise awareness of this handy tool. Bob. . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Scuse me - bare Nuckolls At 11:35 PM 1/29/2007 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 01/29/2007 11:43:39 AM Central Standard Time, >VE3LVO@rac.ca writes: >The series is informative, factual, accurate and informal so that if you >have a specific problem, it'll probably be sorted out before you can ask > > >>>>>> >FWIW, here's my take on the subject: > >http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/?q=classes/workshops > >Go. Learn. Execute. Hmmm . . . that WAS a surrealistic experience. It was hard to keep my head on the rest of the task that morning after seeing and knowing that those brilliant white streaks in the Texas sky were the remains of fellow aviators. In retrospect however, I would hope that sudden news of my own demise would not impede anyone from getting on with the task. We all know that there are risks associated with any endeavor. I'd much rather meet my end doing what I love as opposed to being t-boned in an intersection by a drunk. At the same time, I'm a bit chagrined to consider that if I bought it in an aviation accident, that a perfectly good airplane may have been munched as a result of some personal ineptitude. But the odds are these ol' bones are going to give it up in bed. Bottom line is that we can best honor those who go before us best by exploiting what we've learned from their contributions. To be both good students and teachers so that risks remain acceptably low while our confidence and numbers continue to grow. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:44 PM PST US From: "Tim Andres" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people This isn't the first time I couldn't find my butt with both hands...Tim -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:44 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft wiring for smart people At 07:57 PM 1/29/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Thanks, Bob....I wanted to have a look at it, I like the idea of having a >central hub where most everything terminates. Seems to simplify things a >great deal, or at least you can guess where most if not all of your troubles >reside! BTW I looked for a long while on your site for that article and was >not able to find it, thanks for the link. >Tim Andres Hmmmm . . . hey folks, there's a Google Site Search window on the front page of the website as well as the What's New page. I've used it extensively myself for finding stuff on an increasing stack of stuff. Tim, a site search on "richter" produced 11 hits. Not trying to rag you my friend . . . just raise awareness of this handy tool. Bob. . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- -- -- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:59 PM PST US From: "Bob Verwey" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: To buy or not to buy, that is the question Dave, apparently the folks at Google have the same philosophy, right down to sleeping facilities! Bobv A35 Bonanza -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave N6030X Sent: 30 Jan 2007 12:53 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: To buy or not to buy, that is the question --> Bob, when I was managing a software company that was moving into a new building, we designed in 2 unusual rooms: 1. A complete laundry room with a washer, dryer, sink, ironing board, hooks, cabinets, hangers, etc. 2. A children's play room, complete with miscellaneous toys The theory was that we had a bunch of brilliant programmers who enjoyed coding, and if they had time on a Saturday afternoon to do their laundry but could also do some coding while they were waiting for the washer or the dryer, they would come to the office to do it. If they had kids, they would bring them to the office to play while they did some playing of their own on the computer. This was back in the days when few people could yet afford a personal computer at home. I personally thought it was brilliant, and it worked like a charm. Right up to the time the management of the company was swapped out for some bean counters who were more concerned with whether little Johnny would hurt himself in the play room. Soon thereafter the company's doors were locked at 17:01 every day, nobody came in on weekends, the brilliant team of programmers dissolved, and I don't work there any more either. Dave Morris At 04:33 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote: > > > >>As usual, Bob has succinctly assessed the problem. If I looks at a >>project or item and decide that "I can't build it for that" then it >>seems far better to expend money than time--unless one undertakes it >>as an educational endeavor and not to save money. If we value our >>time very highly (which we must not or we wouldn't be building >>airplanes!), then with an embarrassingly high frequency, it truly is >>cheaper to buy it then build it. > > This is usually the case . . . unless you're already skilled > at the building part. On the other side, real education is > truly expensive in terms of $time$ expended . . . often with > no demonstrable expectation for return on investment. > > I'd hate to see a real spreadsheet on the $time$ I've expended > purely for the fun of finding out something new or to try > my hand at some new skill. I've often admitted to being > "afflicted" with that strange disease where my vocation > is also my avocation. I do this stuff for the boss under > conditions that are often frustrating and then come home > to do it some more where it's got to be fun or I wouldn't do it. > > I'm crafting a white paper for the new managers of > Hawker-Beech dealing with the need for REAL IR&D > facilities. The business case goes to several > management issues but the one I like the most is to > suggest that we (the company) should support an IR&D > activity with tools, materials, facility and mentorship > but to be utilized on the employee's OWN time. Shucks, > everybody would show up if they had a work order. > > I've suggested that such a facility would be a valuable > human resources "filter" . . . I would guess that out > of 900 or so engineers and perhaps 1,000 more technical > staff, there are perhaps 50-100 folks who have "the > disease". I'm telling them that it would be useful > to KNOW who those folks are and what they're REALLY > good at. An IR&D facility provide a means by which > folks could exercise their skills EVERY DAY. Further, > we'd acquire valuable insight into skills that > the most motivated individuals in our employ can bring > to bear on the company's fortunes. > > The best thing is that such a facility can be operated > on perhaps 2-5% of our total engineering overhead > budget. A pittance. > > This is a generic document intended to identify and > exploit simple ideas. I'll be pleased to share it > with the List and get your feedback. Further, it's > my hope that many of you may find the document useful > in your own workplaces. Watch this space. > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) > ( what ever you do must be exercised ) > ( EVERY day . . . ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.