---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/14/07: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - What should I check? (Bill Bradburry) 2. 06:05 AM - Re: And now for something completely different..... (Bret Smith) 3. 06:45 AM - Re: What should I check? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:33 AM - Poor man's DAS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:36 AM - Hand soldering reliability (Gilles Thesee) 6. 08:08 AM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:56 AM - Re: Poor man's DAS (C Smith) 8. 09:03 AM - Re: Poor man's DAS (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 09:16 AM - voltmeter switch (kesleyelectric) 10. 12:01 PM - Most Reliable D-Sub Connections? (Eric Parlow) 11. 12:24 PM - Re: Most Reliable D-Sub Connections? (john@ballofshame.com) 12. 01:15 PM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Bill Boyd) 13. 01:31 PM - Re: Poor man's DAS (B Tomm) 14. 01:38 PM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Gilles Thesee) 15. 01:53 PM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Dave N6030X) 16. 02:03 PM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (john@ballofshame.com) 17. 02:29 PM - Re: Poor man's DAS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 02:38 PM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 02:46 PM - Re: Most Reliable D-Sub Connections? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 03:48 PM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Walter Fellows) 21. 04:48 PM - Re: Poor man's DAS (Ken) 22. 06:09 PM - Electronics Intl MVP-50 Dsub 37's connectors (rtitsworth) 23. 06:36 PM - Re: Poor man's DAS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 08:09 PM - Radio audio troubles () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:52 AM PST US From: Bill Bradburry Subject: AeroElectric-List: What should I check? I am wiring my plane like Z-19. I currently only have one battery installed in the engine battery position. Yesterday I had the engine master switch on, and thinking that if I wanted to charge the battery while the engine was running, I would need to turn the main master battery switch to alternator. I had not yet started the engine. When I switched the main master to alternator, I heard a series of rapid clicks and thought that I saw some smoke drift over the panel. I immediately turned it off. Later on inspection I discovered that I had not connected the ground wire to pin 1 of the main master switch. (what a dope!) I have not been able to discover any burned wires or parts. What did I probably burn up? Can someone direct me to the probable areas to check? Thanks, Bill B ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:59 AM PST US From: "Bret Smith" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: And now for something completely different..... Apparently, Stein was involved early in the design/formative stage and he speaks highly of the design team. VP has a nice write-up in the current issue of Kitplanes. Bret Smith RV-9A "Wings" Blue Ridge, GA www.FlightInnovations.com ----- Original Message ----- From: RV Builder (Michael Sausen) To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:13 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: And now for something completely different..... Their site says they will have pricing next month and they are going to be at a few of the big fly-ins this year. Don't know if I would want to be an early adopter though. Michael From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Boyd Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:36 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: And now for something completely different..... Very interesting indeed, but not available until August; not even a price hint. On 2/13/07, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: Looks to be very interesting... http://www.verticalpower.com/ Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What should I check? At 06:52 AM 2/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >I am wiring my plane like Z-19. I currently only have one battery >installed in the engine battery position. Yesterday I had the engine >master switch on, and thinking that if I wanted to charge the battery >while the engine was running, I would need to turn the main master battery >switch to alternator. I had not yet started the engine. >When I switched the main master to alternator, I heard a series of rapid >clicks and thought that I saw some smoke drift over the panel. I >immediately turned it off. >Later on inspection I discovered that I had not connected the ground wire >to pin 1 of the main master switch. (what a dope!) >I have not been able to discover any burned wires or parts. What did I >probably burn up? Can someone direct me to the probable areas to check? Impossible to deduce from the information you've provided. If and open ground wire to the master switch were the only problem, you would not have closed the battery contactor and things should have been "black". If you had power on the airplane after having moved the switch, then the battery contactor had to be closed. This suggest wiring errors that go beyond the one you cited. When powering a system up for the first time, I'll suggest that folks pull all the fuses (or open all breakers) and check to see that battery contactors operate as expected. If you're needing to use batteries as the source of first power (as opposed to a plug-in-the-wall power supply) then it's a good idea to replace the battery-to-master-contactor jumper with a temporary in-line fuse holder. Put a 5A fuse in to energize contactors, power up fuse-less busses, etc to see that voltage is getting to where it belongs. Then increase the battery fuse size and begin brining things on line one fuse or breaker at a time. That's another nice thing about fuseblocks . . . you can power up circuits for the first time with undersized fuses . . . this can be a smoke-free technique for checking out complex control circuits like landing gear indicator lights, control contactors, etc. You should be able to check out the vast majority of systems in your airplane, one-at-a-time with no more than a 10A fuse in series with the battery. Only after you're satisfied that there are no "holes for smoke to escape from" do you replace the fuse-jumper with a fat wire so you can crank the engine and run the alternator. Better yet, acquire a plug-in-the-wall power supply like http://tinyurl.com/23nf7m These are readily available in a variety of sizes. I used to sell a 25A device off my website. These are current limited supplies that will shut down for heavy shorts. You can use the series-fuse technique for first-power on systems with very light loads. For the vast majority of builders, the battery is their #1 source for test-energy . . . cheap, reasonably reliable and it's part of the finished system. Unfortunately, the battery is most able and willing to dump hundreds of amps into a mis-wired system and the outcomes are never happy. If you haven't added a small, first-power-friendly supply to you suite of shop tools, then at least get an inline fuseholder to build a temporary firewall between your battery and potentially fragile wiring mistakes. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS I can't recall if I've mentioned this company before here on the list but for those interested in watching, gathering, storing and plotting various data from their airplane or elsewhere, take a look at this product: http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25 I've had one on the shelf for about a year but didn't have the incentive (work order) to get it out of the box and see what it takes to make it sing, dance and do dishes. Got a task coming up for a customer that can use a small portion of its features so I got it out and fired it up last night. It's almost TOO capable . . . takes awhile to wade through all the "mommy, mommy, look what I can do!!!" things to get it running with a simple task: read and store 3 channels of analog data. But the more I play with it, the more impressed I am with the capability it offers for a paulty $100. One OBAM aviation task I'm considering for it is to measure and store voltage and current values for a battery recharge cycle using the various $low$ charger/maintainers. It's pretty easy to look at a recharge voltage curve and assume that the last 10% of the time under the curve accounts for 10% of total energy transfer. However, we know that's not the case. What the voltage curves don't show us is that during the final phase of the upward climb for applied voltage, current going into the battery is going down, hence the last 10% of charge time may account for only a small percentage of total energy transferred to the battery. It would be cool to really go measure that. So as soon as my customer takes the hit on my exorbitant fees to learn how to use this thing do to his job, I'll be able to move the equipment over to the bench where the battery tests are going on for some elightening 'fun' stuff. The second battery recharge using a Battery Tender completed this morning. The attached image shows the first and second recharge voltage curves. The first curve is in red, the second in black. I note that this charge cycle ended earlier (battery wearing out? It's several years old) but the charge cycle extended into the end-of-charge voltage inflection. Given that devices like the Battery Tender probably use analog comparators to sense when states change, the earlier curve may have terminated a tad early on noise . . . nonetheless, it appears that these whimpy little 'chargers' may be quite capable of stuffing all the snort back into an SVLA battery . . . all it takes is patience. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:59 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability Hi Bob and all, A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the following site : http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf Seems much interesting to me. FWIW, Regards, Gilles Thesee http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:01 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > >Hi Bob and all, > >A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the following >site : > >http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000 charters to "say what you do, do what you say". The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week long training session. The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes described therein. Of course, when some quality issue pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with. Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate reliability of a solder joint depends on some really simple and readily observable characteristics. For your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement call that can be honed only with some practice. Get some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your workbench fastening things together with solder and inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for heat-on-the-joint. I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say." But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in your ability to produce very serviceable solder joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time and worry with some hands-on experience. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:22 AM PST US From: "C Smith" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS Thanks a bunch for the link, I've seen similar devices in my engineering publications, but all were priced at least 3 times higher. This is definitely going to find it's way into my bench. Way-cool! The support files and operating system compatibility files are impressive to say the least. Thanks again, this is a real gem of an instrument! Craig Smith Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 10:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS I can't recall if I've mentioned this company before here on the list but for those interested in watching, gathering, storing and plotting various data from their airplane or elsewhere, take a look at this product: http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Hey Bob, Glad to see the Battery tender junior re-gets your endorsement...Especially as I'd just bought one. This device looks pretty useful, I could imagine using it in flight to gather all sorts of data or to compare to a suspect engine monitoring system for example. The only issue I see is the analogue inputs are not rated up to 14v (10v was the max) but somehow you have been measuring the full charging voltage...How did you do that? Speak slowly...Im a Mechanical engineer...:) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS I can't recall if I've mentioned this company before here on the list but for those interested in watching, gathering, storing and plotting various data from their airplane or elsewhere, take a look at this product: http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25 I've had one on the shelf for about a year but didn't have the incentive (work order) to get it out of the box and see what it takes to make it sing, dance and do dishes. Got a task coming up for a customer that can use a small portion of its features so I got it out and fired it up last night. It's almost TOO capable . . . takes awhile to wade through all the "mommy, mommy, look what I can do!!!" things to get it running with a simple task: read and store 3 channels of analog data. But the more I play with it, the more impressed I am with the capability it offers for a paulty $100. One OBAM aviation task I'm considering for it is to measure and store voltage and current values for a battery recharge cycle using the various $low$ charger/maintainers. It's pretty easy to look at a recharge voltage curve and assume that the last 10% of the time under the curve accounts for 10% of total energy transfer. However, we know that's not the case. What the voltage curves don't show us is that during the final phase of the upward climb for applied voltage, current going into the battery is going down, hence the last 10% of charge time may account for only a small percentage of total energy transferred to the battery. It would be cool to really go measure that. So as soon as my customer takes the hit on my exorbitant fees to learn how to use this thing do to his job, I'll be able to move the equipment over to the bench where the battery tests are going on for some elightening 'fun' stuff. The second battery recharge using a Battery Tender completed this morning. The attached image shows the first and second recharge voltage curves. The first curve is in red, the second in black. I note that this charge cycle ended earlier (battery wearing out? It's several years old) but the charge cycle extended into the end-of-charge voltage inflection. Given that devices like the Battery Tender probably use analog comparators to sense when states change, the earlier curve may have terminated a tad early on noise . . . nonetheless, it appears that these whimpy little 'chargers' may be quite capable of stuffing all the snort back into an SVLA battery . . . all it takes is patience. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:16:00 AM PST US From: "kesleyelectric" Subject: AeroElectric-List: voltmeter switch Bob and list, In a reply a few days ago, it was suggested that a voltmeter on the endurance bus would be a good idea to monitor the health of the battery and the SD8 during alternator out operation. Rather than installing a second voltmeter, I am considering using a 2-3 switch for the e-bus alternate feed and wiring it as shown on the attached diagram. The voltmeter is a UMA "steam gauge". The voltmeter would read the voltage on the appropriate bus, according to the position of the switch. Feedback welcome. Regards, Tom Barter Avid Magnum ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:35 PM PST US From: "Eric Parlow" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Most Reliable D-Sub Connections? Given a DB-44 with high density pins...... What's more reliable: 1.) Machined pins crimped with DFM AFM8 4 point crimper 2.) Formed pins crimped with open jaw hand crimper and soldered, w/ insulation crimped also. 3.) Formed pins only crimped with open jaw hand crimper Gold flashed? ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Most Reliable D-Sub Connections? From: john@ballofshame.com I don't think I've ever used anything but option #1 on a high density D-Sub. By formed I'm guessing you mean open barrel? I didn't even know they made high density pins like that...I've never bothered to look. You can't do much better than option #1. You get strain relief from the backshell of the connector. The Daniels crimper is EXPENSIVE, though. If you want them crimped and you're only making a couple of cables, it's probably way cheaper to just have someone like Stein make them for you. If you really want to solder them instead, I would use a connector with solder cups on them. I will say, though, Daniels makes a NICE crimper! I'm a tool junkie and I can't resist stuff like this. -John www.ballofshame.com > > > Given a DB-44 with high density pins...... > > What's more reliable: > > 1.) Machined pins crimped with DFM AFM8 4 point crimper > > 2.) Formed pins crimped with open jaw hand crimper and soldered, w/ > insulation crimped also. > > 3.) Formed pins only crimped with open jaw hand crimper > > Gold flashed? > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:30 PM PST US From: "Bill Boyd" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability I don't work in the ISO9000 environment (at least not yet; medicine has its Kennedys, Kassabaums and Hillary-in -'08-Clintons who'd drag us into a similar abyss at their first opportunity), but the ISO9000 seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so you'll pay more." I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here. Have I got it wrong? do not archive -Bill B On 2/14/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > > >Hi Bob and all, > > > >A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the following > >site : > > > >http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf > > Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably > used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training > programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000 > charters to "say what you do, do what you say". > > The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably > loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text > for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week > long training session. > > The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is > either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes > described therein. Of course, when some quality issue > pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe > the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap > can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with. > > Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate > reliability of a solder joint depends on some really > simple and readily observable characteristics. For > your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good > solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be > joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement > call that can be honed only with some practice. Get > some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox > parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your > workbench fastening things together with solder and > inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating > your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing > a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with > a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for > heat-on-the-joint. > > I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like > the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF > your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say." > But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in > your ability to produce very serviceable solder > joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time > and worry with some hands-on experience. > > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) > ( what ever you do must be exercised ) > ( EVERY day . . . ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:20 PM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS Bob, I'm interested in this Labjack too for a different application. My question is, does it come with software that is loaded on a PC to control the labjack? If not, what software does one use or does one have to write their own from scratch? Bevan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:31 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS I can't recall if I've mentioned this company before here on the list but for those interested in watching, gathering, storing and plotting various data from their airplane or elsewhere, take a look at this product: http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u3.php?prodId=25 I've had one on the shelf for about a year but didn't have the incentive (work order) to get it out of the box and see what it takes to make it sing, dance and do dishes. Got a task coming up for a customer that can use a small portion of its features so I got it out and fired it up last night. It's almost TOO capable . . . takes awhile to wade through all the "mommy, mommy, look what I can do!!!" things to get it running with a simple task: read and store 3 channels of analog data. But the more I play with it, the more impressed I am with the capability it offers for a paulty $100. One OBAM aviation task I'm considering for it is to measure and store voltage and current values for a battery recharge cycle using the various $low$ charger/maintainers. It's pretty easy to look at a recharge voltage curve and assume that the last 10% of the time under the curve accounts for 10% of total energy transfer. However, we know that's not the case. What the voltage curves don't show us is that during the final phase of the upward climb for applied voltage, current going into the battery is going down, hence the last 10% of charge time may account for only a small percentage of total energy transferred to the battery. It would be cool to really go measure that. So as soon as my customer takes the hit on my exorbitant fees to learn how to use this thing do to his job, I'll be able to move the equipment over to the bench where the battery tests are going on for some elightening 'fun' stuff. The second battery recharge using a Battery Tender completed this morning. The attached image shows the first and second recharge voltage curves. The first curve is in red, the second in black. I note that this charge cycle ended earlier (battery wearing out? It's several years old) but the charge cycle extended into the end-of-charge voltage inflection. Given that devices like the Battery Tender probably use analog comparators to sense when states change, the earlier curve may have terminated a tad early on noise . . . nonetheless, it appears that these whimpy little 'chargers' may be quite capable of stuffing all the snort back into an SVLA battery . . . all it takes is patience. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:01 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability Bill Boyd a crit : > but the ISO9000 > seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so > you'll pay more." > ... > I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct > sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here. > Have I got it wrong? > Hey Bill, Is US quality management really much better than ISO 9000, or is it just another manifestation of "NIH" ? Any comments on the technical content of the document ? Regards, Gilles Thesee http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:45 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability As with most government and large bureaucracy-initiated things, the Law of Unintended Consequences often overshadows the original intent. When the government mandated air bags, children started dying. When they mandated childproof caps on medicine, accidental poisonings increased. I'm sure this new FAA NextGen initiative will result in more fatal crashes, as people find they cannot afford the user fees and the ADS-B equipment that will be replacing radar, and so they fly in the system without the ground support they used to have. When one of our customers implemented ISO-9000, the effect was to force them to buy inferior products from us when a newer, better product was available. But wait, you say, ISO-9000 is supposed to improve quality! Ha! It improves the APPEARANCE of quality. One of the mandates of ISO-9000 is that the documentation has to match the product. So, when we found and fixed a number of bugs in one of our products, we tried to ship the new products to our customer. But they could not take the product, because they had written their own user manuals, and now they had no staff resources to update the manuals. So they ordered us to continue shipping the old product, full of bugs, until such time as they could update their documentation. That turned out to be more than a year. I trust ISO-9000 about as much as I trusted the Malcolm Baldridge award when it went to Cadillac in the same year that they were found at the bottom of the Consumer Reports reliability scale. Dave Morris At 03:14 PM 2/14/2007, you wrote: > >I don't work in the ISO9000 environment (at least not yet; medicine >has its Kennedys, Kassabaums and Hillary-in -'08-Clintons who'd drag >us into a similar abyss at their first opportunity), but the ISO9000 >seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so >you'll pay more." > >I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct >sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here. >Have I got it wrong? > >do not archive > >-Bill B > >On 2/14/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >>At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >Hi Bob and all, >> > >> >A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the following >> >site : >> > >> >http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/A >> nnex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf >> >> Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably >> used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training >> programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000 >> charters to "say what you do, do what you say". >> >> The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably >> loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text >> for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week >> long training session. >> >> The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is >> either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes >> described therein. Of course, when some quality issue >> pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe >> the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap >> can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with. >> >> Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate >> reliability of a solder joint depends on some really >> simple and readily observable characteristics. For >> your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good >> solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be >> joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement >> call that can be honed only with some practice. Get >> some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox >> parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your >> workbench fastening things together with solder and >> inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating >> your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing >> a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with >> a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for >> heat-on-the-joint. >> >> I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like >> the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF >> your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say." >> But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in >> your ability to produce very serviceable solder >> joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time >> and worry with some hands-on experience. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) >> ( what ever you do must be exercised ) >> ( EVERY day . . . ) >> ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability From: john@ballofshame.com You don't have it wrong but that's because ISO9000 says nothing about the quality of the end product. All being ISO9000 certified means is you've documented the processes you use and you perform periodic reviews (I'm WAY oversimplifying and paraphrasing here but that's basically it). The idea is that you document the key processes so that results are repeatable. They can be repeatably bad or repeatably good. Think of it as the commercial version of "mil-spec". Things can be spec'd to turn out like junk but you know that every one is junky in exactly the same way :) -John www.ballofshame.com > > I don't work in the ISO9000 environment (at least not yet; medicine > has its Kennedys, Kassabaums and Hillary-in -'08-Clintons who'd drag > us into a similar abyss at their first opportunity), but the ISO9000 > seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so > you'll pay more." > > I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct > sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here. > Have I got it wrong? > > do not archive > > -Bill B > > On 2/14/07, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 04:36 PM 2/14/2007 +0100, you wrote: >> >> > >> > >> >Hi Bob and all, >> > >> >A friend working in hi level electronics just pointed us to the >> following >> >site : >> > >> >http://esamultimedia.esa.int/docs/industry/SME/2004-Training/M&P/Annex1_ECSS_Q_70_08A.pdf >> >> Yup . . . this is an impressive document. It's probably >> used as the textbook for a whole raft of recurrent training >> programs that industry seems to embrace under their ISO9000 >> charters to "say what you do, do what you say". >> >> The problem with these tomes is that they're invariably >> loaded with enough 'data' to justify their use as the text >> for a 10 hour, 20 hour . . . shucks, let's do a week >> long training session. >> >> The bottom line is that 95% plus of these documents is >> either ignored or forgotten in the practice of processes >> described therein. Of course, when some quality issue >> pops up that can be attributed to "failure to observe >> the ISO9000 approved processes", then some poor sap >> can be tagged with fault and summarily dealt with. >> >> Let us not lose our grip on the notion that ultimate >> reliability of a solder joint depends on some really >> simple and readily observable characteristics. For >> your OBAM aircraft project it boils down to use good >> solder that FLOWS readily over the materials to be >> joined in a short period of time. This is a judgement >> call that can be honed only with some practice. Get >> some tools, solder, wire and as assortment of junkbox >> parts and FIDDLE with them. An hour or so at your >> workbench fastening things together with solder and >> inspecting the results will go a long way toward calibrating >> your own judgement as to whether or not you're doing >> a good job. The goal is to get a smooth joint with >> a MINIMUM of applied solder and MINIMUM time for >> heat-on-the-joint. >> >> I'm not for a moment suggesting that documents like >> the one cited are incorrect or even a bad idea IF >> your goal is to "say what you do, do what you say." >> But if your goal is to acquire some confidence in >> your ability to produce very serviceable solder >> joints, you can get there in a fraction of the time >> and worry with some hands-on experience. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) >> ( what ever you do must be exercised ) >> ( EVERY day . . . ) >> ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS At 01:30 PM 2/14/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Bob, > >I'm interested in this Labjack too for a different application. My question >is, does it come with software that is loaded on a PC to control the >labjack? If not, what software does one use or does one have to write their >own from scratch? > >Bevan It comes with a manually operated test program that lets you individually wiggle any i/o port and make measurements. Really handy for setting up or troubleshooting. It also comes with a scaled down version of DAQFactory, the "express" version that lets you set up DAS and control routines and capture/plot data. I have the test tools up and running. I hope to get into the DAS application this weekend. You can also write routines to access the Labjack from a variety of applications such as LabView and Visual Basic. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability At 02:02 PM 2/14/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >You don't have it wrong but that's because ISO9000 says nothing about the >quality of the end product. All being ISO9000 certified means is you've >documented the processes you use and you perform periodic reviews (I'm WAY >oversimplifying and paraphrasing here but that's basically it). > >The idea is that you document the key processes so that results are >repeatable. They can be repeatably bad or repeatably good. Think of it >as the commercial version of "mil-spec". Things can be spec'd to turn out >like junk but you know that every one is junky in exactly the same way :) Yup. You got it. The fly in the soup is that one presumes that: (1) the process is golden. (2) the folks who describe the process used language that paints the same image in the reader's mind as the writer had when the words were written. (3) the reader can read and understand what is read. (4) if product doesn't come out as depicted in the process, it's presumed to be a problem with folks not following the rules. The whole idea was that proper documentation for any process could replace mentoring, apprenticeship, and replace dependency on continuous refinement of skills through experience. When I know that the ISO audit folks are going to be in the area, I'm careful to be out of the area. I'd hate to embarrass my boss. Bottom line is that documents crafted to satisfy the ISO9000 model are seldom very useful to craftsmen who strive to understand the processes they're using. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Most Reliable D-Sub Connections? At 02:59 PM 2/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >Given a DB-44 with high density pins...... > >What's more reliable: > >1.) Machined pins crimped with DFM AFM8 4 point crimper > >2.) Formed pins crimped with open jaw hand crimper and soldered, w/ >insulation crimped also. > >3.) Formed pins only crimped with open jaw hand crimper When installed with the proper tools by an experienced user, all of these technologies will provide useful service. However, the machined pins and 4-point crimpers are as free of process-driven error as any of the technologies. I've pitched all my open-barrel tools and pin inventory. The ease with which the best-we-know-how-to-do can be accomplished with the machined pins is just too much to pass up. >Gold flashed? You bet. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:22 PM PST US From: "Walter Fellows" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability Gilles Thanks for providing the reference document. Walter On 2/14/07, Gilles Thesee wrote: > > Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > Bill Boyd a =E9crit : > > but the ISO9000 > > seal on manufactured goods has always said to me, "No value added, so > > you'll pay more." > > ... > > I like to think of it as a surtax on docile, politically-correct > > sheep; the latest European export we didn't really need over here. > > Have I got it wrong? > > > > Hey Bill, > > > Is US quality management really much better than ISO 9000, or is it just > another manifestation of "NIH" ? > Any comments on the technical content of the document ? > > Regards, > Gilles Thesee > http://contrails.free.fr > > =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:50 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS Isn't the real value of an intelligent charger simply that it prevents or limits overcharging and battery damage? I suspect that any charging scheme that prevents overcharging is 99% of the answer regardless of the exact programming algorithm. A wall wart and an LM317 voltage regulator set for float voltage for example has worked well for me for many years. Since the current at float voltage (self discharge current) seems to end up the same, I'm confident that the slow charge is fully charging the battery and that I'm not overcharging. As noted , limiting the voltage really only slows the last few percent of charging. I've been playing a bit with desulphating pulse charging. It hasn't helped badly sulphated batteries for me so I've been sceptical. However lately I've been using a 60 hz 40 volt square wave (discharging a capacitor) to periodically top up seldom used batteries (non aviation) and I think it might be improving the cranking current that I can get out of them and extending their lives at least a bit. Might be neat to try to generate some hard numbers for that. Ken > snip > . . . nonetheless, it appears that these > whimpy little 'chargers' may be quite capable of stuffing all > the snort back into an SVLA battery . . . all it takes is patience. > > Bob . . . > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:58 PM PST US From: "rtitsworth" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronics Intl MVP-50 Dsub 37's connectors Bob, etal I have an ElecIntl MVP-50 engine monitor. The various probes connect to three Dsub 37 connectors on the box (via a user created harness). To get the engine prob wires through the firewall I have a few options: 1. Drill a hole, and use a flange and a piece of fire sleeve and a couple wire ties (quick and cheep) 2. Get a few large Amp/mil-spec bayonet style multi-pin round plugs (expensive and heavy) 3. Fabricate/find three Dsub 37 bulkhead connectors and use the provided cable components and a standard Dsub 37-to-37 straight thru cable. Thus: connect the probes to the provided Dsum37 connectors, connect those to the dsub37 bulkhead connectors, connect the back side of those to the dsub37-to-37 straight through cables, connect the other end of the cables to the engine monitor box (dsub 37). i.e. Seems it would be "clean" to just use the same style connectors throughout. Have you ever see a thing such as Dsub37 bulkhead socket? i.e. like a normal one with bigger flanges. Have you ever seen one that had male pins on one side and female plugs on the other (straight through)? Ideally it would be > 1/2" depth in the center to get through the firewall. Or perhaps a similar gender changer and then I'd find/make a mating cable? Rick ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Poor man's DAS At 07:50 PM 2/14/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > Isn't the real value of an intelligent charger simply that it prevents > or limits overcharging and battery damage? I suspect that any charging > scheme that prevents overcharging is 99% of the answer regardless of the > exact programming algorithm. A wall wart and an LM317 voltage regulator > set for float voltage for example has worked well for me for many years. Yes . . . for sustaining a battery in storage, you support the battery at or slightly above the stable open circuit terminal voltage which is on the order of 12.9 to 13.0 volts at room temperature. To fully charge a battery at room temperature, 13.8 volts will eventually do it but to speed things up toward the end a shutoff/top-off of 14.0 to 15.0 volts is not uncommon for smart chargers. > Since the current at float voltage (self discharge current) seems to end > up the same, I'm confident that the slow charge is fully charging the > battery and that I'm not overcharging. As noted , limiting the voltage > really only slows the last few percent of charging. Well, I can try it out and see. On one of the recharge cycles I'll set it up on a constant current power supply limited at 13.0 volts and see what kind of energy the battery accepts. >I've been playing a bit with desulphating pulse charging. It hasn't helped >badly sulphated batteries for me so I've been sceptical. However lately >I've been using a 60 hz 40 volt square wave (discharging a capacitor) to >periodically top up seldom used batteries (non aviation) and I think it >might be improving the cranking current that I can get out of them and >extending their lives at least a bit. Might be neat to try to generate >some hard numbers for that. Just had a direct e-mail question from a reader: "Comments/Questions: Hi Bob. I took your class several years ago in Watsonville, CA and I thought you might have the answer for me. I am wondering how often my battery should be changed out. It is a Concorde RG-35AXC battery and it was placed in service "new" in October of 2002. This battery is in a C-182. It flies approximately 100 hours per year. I have noticed the battery not cranking the O-470 as strong as it did 6 months ago. I am just wondering what the expected life service for a battery of this type is. Thanks for your help!" To which I answered: There is no really hard data on "expected" service life of a battery. There are huge variables not the least of which include how many times it has been fully depleted and how long it was allowed to sit in a discharged state. I'll suggest that if the battery is noticeably soft while cranking an engine, it has probably been unserviceable as a standby source of energy for a long time. Replacement of batteries should be based on energy available to run endurance mode goodies for what ever length of time you choose. The FAA is fond of "30 minutes". I'm fond of "Duration of Fuel Aboard". Which ever you choose, if you periodically test the battery for its ability to meet your endurance goals, you'll find that it gets replaced long before it won't crank the engine any more. And again, "service life", whether based on engine cranking ability or demonstrated endurance performance can be influenced strongly by the environment in which the battery lives. I'd be hard pressed to either persuade or dissuade you from believing that your October 2002 purchase was not a good value. ----------------- There are a number of products that tout some ability to reverse sulfation. The problem is that the techniques range from simply "pulse charging" to finely tuned pulses of energy that supposedly match the natural resonant frequency of the sulfate molecule . . . 3.26 Mhz as I recall. Current levels for suggested pulses range from hundreds of milliamps to as much as 20 amps or more. Do a Goggle on "desulphation" and "dsulfation" and you'll get a total of 69,000 hits the vast majority of which discuss some process touted to rejuvenate a sulfate-distressed battery. Even our friend Jim Weir published an article in April 2002 Kitplanes that suggested some popular flavor of battery performance booster. The wild variability of processes and techniques offered in the marketplace suggests that nobody has hit upon the one true process. Some guy from Soneil in Canada sent me some chargers that featured "battery desulfating" capabilty. I've studied both a 14v and 28v version on a DAS and 'scope and as near as I can tell, they perform just like a Schumacher "smart charger" . . . I can detect no special energy output that might target the evil sulfate crystals. I'll suggest that parking the airplane on a maintainer and doing cap checks at one year and every 6 months thereafter will yield the ideal replacement interval for any given battery. If your endurance criteria is zero minutes, then run it until it won't crank the engine any more. Further, it's a sure bet that your perceived service life will exceed that of the guy in the next hangar that wants 3 hours of support for the e-bus. I just stuck a discharged SVLA battery on the 13.0 volt power supply. We'll see what the battery will suck up at that voltage. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:38 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio audio troubles Hi Gurus, It's been awhile, but I hope all is well with you all. I'm having audio issues with my new Becker 4201 #2 com and was wondering if you could help. The issue is the output audio from the radio whenever there is another radio switched into the same output. As soon as any other input is selected on the audio panel at the same time, the com#2 volume goes very very low and is overpowered. Sidetone during transmit seems un-affected as does the audio of the other sources selected - only the Com2 audio drops down. By itself...the radio sounds fine, and operates properly. The #1 com (iCom A200) works fine and is nice and loud with any number of inputs selected on the audio panel (KA-134). Adding additional inputs has little to no affect on com1 volume. It works great - as it should. According to the KA-134 schematics, the only thing it's doing with the phone outputs from the radios is mechanically switching them (no electronics) together to a single output line to the intercom. Because of this, I was wondering if the impedance differences of the radios are a problem. However, I have no real understanding of the magic involved here. They are as follows according to the respective docs: Com1 iCom - 500 ohms Com2 Becker - 600 ohms Eng mon - 560 ohms Nav KN-53 - 500 ohms RST Marker Receiver - unknown I am still puzzled why Com1 has no issues with any number of other inputs, and Com2 does....impedance differences and all. Any ideas? I have schematics for the KA-134 if you want to see it...but for this, it's just mechanical switches. Thanks for any help! James Redmon Berkut13 N97TX ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.