---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 02/19/07: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:22 AM - Re: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 06:50 AM - remote battery terminals (ddddsp1@juno.com) 3. 06:57 AM - Re: Hand soldering reliability (Chuck Jensen) 4. 07:40 AM - Trim Motor Rant (Valovich, Paul) 5. 08:17 AM - Re: Trim Motor Rant (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 6. 09:02 AM - Re: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators (Tim Andres) 7. 11:30 AM - Re: Trim Motor Rant (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:35 AM - Re: remote battery terminals (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 02:07 PM - Strobes (Fergus Kyle) 10. 06:04 PM - Re: Battery chargers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 06:08 PM - Re: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators At 07:29 AM 2/17/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob & sorry for the delay, the actuator takes 5 amps at rated load. >Tim That's a boss-hog trim motor. Do you know how much it draws as-installed? The pitch trim actuator on a Lear 35 draws 16A at rated load for the actuator (2500 pounds) but draws only 2A in worst case for normal flight (about 300 pounds). Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:10 AM PST US From: "ddddsp1@juno.com" Subject: AeroElectric-List: remote battery terminals Bob, I was considering running remote battery terminals to make it easier IF I ever need to jump start my plane. The wire run would be 12-16" from the battery. What size wire would be recommended to run to these remote terminals? The battery is a Odessey PC925. Would a fuse inline be nec essary? Dean ________________________________________________________________________ FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.c om/products/online_calendar.pd?c=uol5752

Bob,

 I was considering running remote battery terminals to make it e asier IF I ever need to jump start my plane.  The wire run would be 12-16" from the battery.  What size wire would be recommended to r un to these remote terminals?  The battery is a Odessey PC925.  ; Would a fuse inline be necessary?

Dean



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________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:57:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability From: "Chuck Jensen" On Behalf Of Todd Heffley Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 5:29 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hand soldering reliability --> Had to rant. For those of you who have not had the pleasure of working under these tyanical systems... When you hear the words Six Sigma, be prepared to stop what you are doing and build some spreadsheets, attend MANY meetings, and synergize team-to-team stratagies to maximize future deliverables. BUT MOST OF ALL, YOU WILL STOP PRODUCING USEFUL products/services/advancements.....PERIOD. **** Yes, but the one piece that you will finally be able to produce will be PERFECT...or at least, it will match the imperfect paperwork that weighs as much as the part. Six Sigma is an attempt to rely on a system instead of people, but then, since imperfect people are running the Six Sigma program, the results are often predictable, if unproductive. Nonetheless, a well controlled and documented process is invaluable and pays manifold dividends later. Chuck ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:40:59 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Motor Rant From: "Valovich, Paul" I spent Sunday wiring the Ray Allen elevator trim motor on my -8A. Can anyone explain the logic of why this otherwise fine product has micro wires hanging off it instead of AWG 22's? What a PITA to work with. Paul Valovich ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim Motor Rant From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I agree, but its a right of passage. I soldered a 2 foot tail of AWG 22 on each micro wire and made the mechanical connection under the empanage fairing. It is a pain though 'cus you expect the wiring to take 5 minutes and it takes 1.5 hours...A bit like evry other job come to think of it! Frank 7a ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:38 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Motor Rant I spent Sunday wiring the Ray Allen elevator trim motor on my -8A. Can anyone explain the logic of why this otherwise fine product has micro wires hanging off it instead of AWG 22's? What a PITA to work with. Paul Valovich ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:58 AM PST US From: "Tim Andres" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators I dont know yet Bob, the spec I gave is from the mfg and I'm sure is worst case, I imagine in this lightly load application, it will be >.5 amp. Thanks, Tim -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:21 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators At 07:29 AM 2/17/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >Thanks Bob & sorry for the delay, the actuator takes 5 amps at rated load. >Tim That's a boss-hog trim motor. Do you know how much it draws as-installed? The pitch trim actuator on a Lear 35 draws 16A at rated load for the actuator (2500 pounds) but draws only 2A in worst case for normal flight (about 300 pounds). Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- -- -- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Trim Motor Rant At 04:15 PM 2/19/2007 +0000, you wrote: From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 7:38 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Trim Motor Rant I spent Sunday wiring the Ray Allen elevator trim motor on my -8A. Can anyone explain the logic of why this otherwise fine product has micro wires hanging off it instead of AWG 22? What a PITA to work with. Paul ------------------------------ I agree, but its a right of passage. I soldered a 2 foot tail of AWG 22 on each micro wire and made the mechanical connection under the empanage fairing. It is a pain though 'cus you expect the wiring to take 5 minutes and it takes 1.5 hours...A bit like evry other job come to think of it! Frank 7a ----------------------------------------------------- Agreed. Back in '86 on my first pilgrimage to OSH, I stopped by the then Menzimer booth to suggest that 22AWG wires would be much more user friendly for the neophyte builder . . . I also suggested that two white wires on the motor leads gave a builder a 50/50 chance of hooking it up right the first time. How about making white a (+)extend and perhaps a black wire for (+)retract? "We're not hearing any complaints from customers", was the reply. For the next 12 years or so, I'd make the same visit and offer the same suggestions only to receive the same insipid response. I told them I was trying to produce wiring diagrams that featured their products and I'd really like to have the motor run the right direction the first time, every time. But alas . . . This is why it's important to be responsible consumers. Make the manufacturer aware of your displeasure irrespective of how willing you are to live with what's been supplied to you. I gave it my best shot for a dozen years, it's up to you folks now . . . Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:56 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: remote battery terminals At 02:45 PM 2/19/2007 +0000, you wrote: >Bob, > > I was considering running remote battery terminals to make it easier IF > I ever need to jump start my plane. The wire run would be 12-16" from > the battery. What size wire would be recommended to run to these remote > terminals? The battery is a Odessey PC925. Would a fuse inline be necessary? > >Dean Depends on who's making the judgment. It's only 'necessary' if YOU think it's necessary. The remote terminals are now an extension of the battery's ability to dump energy externally in the event of a crash or perhaps even a maintenance accident. The best we know how to do is the pilot controlled, reverse polarity, over voltage protected ground power plug. Anything you choose to do short of those design goals is entirely up to you. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:07:13 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobes Craig, I read your latest paragraph regarding lighting and noted that's it's all "I" and no "we". Manoeuvring around an airfield, particularly a busy one, is very much a community thing, not a solitary event. While you are not bothered by another's strobes on the tarmac, many others are, me included. If you were to sit up at 20 feet in Chicago O'Hare and every aircraft had on strobes, you would appreciate the confusion and wariness that occurred. Strobes don't quickly indicate speed, turns or direction. That's why we copied ships and used coloured lamps - which do all three. Trying to guess the progress of conflicting traffic between flashes is a mug's game and unsafe. It is unnecessarily distracting and time-wasting when time's in short supply. Strobes are designed to be seen many miles away, not several feet. Turning strobes on at Take-off clearance tells everyone who's the primary traffic on the live runway, and the tower that the clearance has been received and acted on.... and it does so without bothering anyone. If the clearance wasn't issued, it draws attention to the tower that danger is building and the take-off stopped if possible. "I'm sure the flames will start, and the name calling will follow, but I'd rather be an a*****e than an accident statistic." Safe, co-ordinated airport traffic is not necessarily about what you'd rather be. It's more concerning about what you'd rather not cause. Turning landing lights on descent through 10.000 feet is not about aircraft collisions, it's training bird flocks to avoid aircraft. Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic PS: I think the argument for rotating beacons has more merit. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:54 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Battery chargers At 06:36 PM 2/19/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Bob, I am not a normal contributor to your list but read with interest, >when possible, and thought I would offer this for your thoughts. There >seems to be a lot of interest lately on battery chargers. > >I have used old small UPS systems for battery chargers and found them to >be pretty good at charging and keeping batteries charged. The type of UPS >systems that I am talking about is normally used for personal computers or >servers. I have done some measuring and they seem to vary a little in >how sophisticated they are. Some of the high end ones also seem to have a >DC pulse of some higher than 12v intensity. I don't have a scope >available so just observed a pulse reading on a meter that looks larger >than 30 volts. I assumed this was some form of attempt at preventing >sulfation. The resting or float voltage varies with units all the way >from 13.2 up to 13.8 using an uncalibrated meter. The nice part is that I >have found a lot of these around that people don't seem to want to bother >with replacing their old or bad batteries and will pass them on or junk >them. Since I am a classic cheap skate, it seemed a shame not to reclaim >them for a useful purpose. Several of these small ups systems originally >had Panasonic sealed lead acid batteries similar in size and shape to the >Odyssey 680 and since I have a 680 in the RV4, I thought this might make a >good battery charger/tender/minder for it. >My assumption is that UPS manufacturers probably built a pretty good >battery charger/tender in the unit so as not to over charge the internal >battery. I don't have a recording meter system so I am not aware of how >they charge; as in "equalize", versus "float", etc They also seem to >have built in several protection modes, such as turning off the 117 volt >inverters or the load when the battery reaches a certain voltage (not >important when using as a charger) and they also shut down the 12 volt >output when the battery is below a certain starting voltage. In other >words, a completely flat battery will have to be paralleled with another >good battery to use these power supplies as chargers. > >For my convenience, I mounted banana plug female jacks on the outside of >the units and made up jumpers with alligator jacks on them. They also >seem to work pretty good at charging up portable jumper batteries too. > >In your opinion, am I slowly cooking any battery that I hook up to these >"inexpensive" power supplies. What a novel discovery my friend, thank you for sharing this! Of course, uninterruptible are tasked with maintaining a battery (that almost never gets cycled) in a high state of readiness. Unlike vehicular systems that crank engines and supply fill-in power when engine RPMS are too low, the UPS battery may sit for years while the owner expects it to keep things running for a useful period of time during power failures. As others have observed on the List . . . batteries applied in this special service may benefit from special treatment by the charging/maintaining system powered from AC mains. Which reminds me, the UPS on my desk is about 6 years old and the last time I had a neighborhood power down, the battery lasted barely long enough for me to do an orderly save. I don't have a battery on hand that fits inside but I do have some instrumentation batteries as large as 32 AH. It occurred to me last week that I might bring the battery wires out and use one of these fat mamas to replace the internal battery. Your posting has prompted me to revisit that task with new purpose in mind. I'll take some measurements on how this particular device treats its battery. If anyone else has occasion to conduct some similar investigations into John's idea, please share it with us here on the List. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Pulse width modulation on linear actuators At 09:02 AM 2/19/2007 -0800, you wrote: > >I don't know yet Bob, the spec I gave is from the mfg and I'm sure is worst >case, I imagine in this lightly load application, it will be > >.5 amp. >Thanks, Tim Hmmmm . . . okay, except that inrush currents will be rather spectacular compared to the load currents. When you craft a duty-cycle limited controller, I'd recommend that transistors in the 10A class be used to drive the motor. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.