---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/01/07: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:45 AM - Re: Van's Ammeter (Richard Dudley) 2. 06:55 AM - Garmin 430W Install Manual (Bill Denton) 3. 07:55 AM - Re: 2 1/4 inch transponder (LarryMcFarland) 4. 08:10 AM - Re: Garmin 430W Install Manual (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 5. 08:24 AM - Re: 2 1/4 inch transponder (Gilles Thesee) 6. 08:26 AM - Re: 2 Grounds (Doug Windhorn) 7. 08:58 AM - Re: Van's Ammeter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:09 AM - Re: 2 Grounds (Sam Marlow) 9. 09:13 AM - Re: Van's Ammeter (Richard Dudley) 10. 09:25 AM - Re: Garmin 430W Install Manual (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 11. 09:46 AM - Re: 2 Grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 10:02 AM - Re: Garmin 430W Install Manual (6440 Auto Parts) 13. 10:09 AM - Re: Garmin 430W Install Manual (6440 Auto Parts) 14. 10:16 AM - Re: 2 Grounds (Glaeser, Dennis A) 15. 10:34 AM - 18 AH Battery Test Data (Richard Dudley) 16. 10:53 AM - Re: Garmin 430W Install Manual (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 17. 11:52 AM - Re: Garmin 430W Install Manual (rd2@evenlink.com) 18. 01:59 PM - Switch drilling template (Gilles Thesee) 19. 03:27 PM - Re: 2 Grounds (Larry Rosen) 20. 04:33 PM - Re: 2 Grounds (Eric Newton) 21. 04:45 PM - Re: Switch drilling template (Bill Steer) 22. 08:12 PM - GPS Antenna? () 23. 08:32 PM - Re: GPS Antenna? (Earl_Schroeder) 24. 08:53 PM - Re: 2 Grounds (Doug Windhorn) 25. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 26. 11:36 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:59 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Van's Ammeter Bob, Thanks for the reply. I would prefer trying the external experiment before considering opening the meter. So, I'd like to take you up on your offer of the loan your capacitors to do the experiment. If it works, I'll replace your caps. Earlier, I tried to surpress RF which pinned the meter when I transmitted. A ferrite clamp on one lead did reduce the reaction. My address is RH Dudley 8425 Littleleaf Ct. Orlando, FL 32835 Thanks. Regards, Richard Dudley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 08:30 PM 2/28/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >> >> >> Listers, >> I have a Van's - 0 + ammeter. It is very sensitive to rapidly >> changing loads, especially to the strobe load. The needle is in >> constant vibration while the strobes are on and/or the landing/taxi >> light wig-wag is wig-wagging . Is there a reasonable means >> (preferably connected externally) for increasing its response time. >> Its external connections are gnd, power, and two terminals to the >> shunt. >> >> Thanks in advance for suggestions. >> >> Richard Dudley >> RV-6A flying > > > This instrument is a very low-impedance device (40mv full > scale as I recall) in terms of adding damping. The really > slick way to damp these devices is to put a drop of hi-viscosity > silicone oil in the pivot bearings. We experimented with this > at Cessna about 1965 . . . it worked really well. I think > we had Stewart-Warner do that mod on future units but I > don't recall now. There's a 50,000 cts "differential lock" > oil that's popular with the electric race car crowd that costs > about $5.00 for a 1 oz bottle. One drop on each bearing > would damp it very nicely. > > The problem with doing the job electrically is that the > source impedance for the driving signal is VERY low . . . > like a few milliohms. It takes a whopping capacitor to > add much time-constant at this low level. Try putting say > a 10 ohm resistor in series with one of the shunt leads > and the parallel the instrument with the biggest capacitor > you can find. I've got some 330uf/6v tantalums you could > try. About three of those in parallel would get 1000uF. > This MIGHT be useful to try. > > Bob . . . > > > ---------------------------------------- > ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) > ( what ever you do must be exercised ) > ( EVERY day . . . ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:36 AM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Hi, Group... There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced because the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I don't want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with stuff. Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... Thank you! Bill Denton bdenton@bdenton.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:18 AM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 1/4 inch transponder Hi Bevan, I've been using a Becker Transponder 2 1/4 inch for about 2 years now and really like the product. It's well built, very easy to use and install. There's been no problems with it. I looked at Microair before deciding that the Becker was a superior piece of workmanship. The manual was very well done. Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com B Tomm wrote: > > I'm considering on using a 2 1/4 inch transponder such as Becker or > Microair to free up space in my vertical stack. Does anyone have any > experience, cautions or other advice regarding these "round" > transponders? They are not as common as the Garmin but any good? > > Thanks > > Bevan > RV7A finishing kit > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Well Im trying to get it and Ill post it for all. I cant even spell Garmen. Send it to me. Mike mstewartga@yahoo.com or mike.stewart@us.ibm.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Denton Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Hi, Group... There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced because the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I don't want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with stuff. Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... Thank you! Bill Denton bdenton@bdenton.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:43 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 1/4 inch transponder LarryMcFarland a crit : > > I've been using a Becker Transponder 2 1/4 inch for about 2 years now > and really like the product. It's well built, very easy to use and > install. > There's been no problems with it. I looked at Microair before > deciding that the Becker was a superior piece of workmanship. > The manual was very well done. Bevan, Larry and all, I'll second that. A breeze to install, more than two years flying now, and no problem. Becker products have an outstanding reputation in Europe. Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:28 AM PST US From: "Doug Windhorn" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds Larry, I'll take a stab at attempting to clarify this. It makes sense to run all ground wires to a single ground point, including the avionics. What I believe Bob is saying is that common ground point for the avionics may be established near the avionics, then a single wire connects the avionics ground point to the "forest of tabs" on the firewall. In effect, this method uses the same ground point and the circuitry is virtually identical from a current flow standpoint. It precludes the possibility of alternate feed paths for the ground current, and may, to some miniscule degree, reduce the possibility of electromagnetic crosstalk. The avionics to firewall ground wire needs to be large enough to handle the combined current demand of all of the avionics. I see plusses and minuses with the remote avionics ground point. On the plus side is that the amount of wires from the panel to the firewall is reduced making, possibly, for a cleaner wiring job, lower weight (minimally), and so on. On the minus side is that failure of the connection between the avionics ground and the firewall ground wipes out all of the avionics (but a good installation should preclude this from being a significant concern). It is a wash in my view, and therefore, neither arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the other. Weigh your concerns and use the system you feel most comfortable with. Hope this helps. Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" Sent: Wednesday, 28 February, 2007 18:01 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds > > > Bob, > > To quote you, chapter 18 page 11 of the connection (hope I am not > violating your copy write) > "The forest-of-ground-tabs technique described in Chapter 5 is entirely > suitable and convenient for most equipment in the electrical system. > However, while it is electrically correct to wire all the panel mounted > equipment to the same ground block the total number of wires can be > significant. > > Further, given that there are a number of small signal systems vulnerable > to noise concentrated on the panel, it makes sense to create separate and > co-located ground system for these potential victims. ..." > > Are you saying that the separate and co-located avionics ground system is > acceptable because the potential for noise from this design is minimal, > and the advantage of not running many separate grounds from all the > avionics to the ground bus outweighs the minimal noise potential. > > Can I then make the conclusion, that if the ground bus were near the > avionics, running the wires a single bus would be minimally superior? > > Larry Rosen > > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 11:32 AM 2/26/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> >>> Do I need a separate ground for the Avionics, including the phones. Or >>> will the ganged firewall (cool side) ground block be satisfactory for >>> all my grounds? I think the audio panel (GMA 340) has a ground block. >>> Thanks, >>> Sam Marlow >> >> See chapter on Grounds in the 'Connection and in >> particular the suggested architectures illustrated >> in Figure Z-15 in . . . >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf >> >> The term "need" is not quantifiable. There are tens >> of thousands of vehicles including airplanes where >> various systems in power distribution and signal >> handling are "grounded" willy-nilly without consideration >> for the physics >> >> For every builder that touts a "need" there will be >> a half dozen who cite observations based on their >> own experiences that contradict the notion of "need". >> >> Bottom line is that there are reasons based in physics >> that show now potential for noise and/or degraded operation >> can be elevated by inattention to grounding. It's easy >> to do but if you don't wish to do it, probability of >> a PERCEIVED degradation of performance is low. HOWEVER >> when a build comes on the list citing some anomalous or >> noisy behavior, the first question that enters my mind >> is, "How are your grounds architectured?". >> >> If things are stuck down to the airframe without regard >> to practices and principles KNOWN to reduce risk, then >> identifying and fixing the problem can be much harder. >> >> None of us can tell you that you NEED to do anything >> but plenty of us who will sympathize with you should >> some noise problem present itself at some time in the >> future. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) >> ( what ever you do must be exercised ) >> ( EVERY day . . . ) >> ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Van's Ammeter At 09:44 AM 3/1/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >Bob, >Thanks for the reply. >I would prefer trying the external experiment before considering opening >the meter. >So, I'd like to take you up on your offer of the loan your capacitors to >do the experiment. If it works, I'll replace your caps. >Earlier, I tried to surpress RF which pinned the meter when I transmitted. >A ferrite clamp on one lead did reduce the reaction. ????? an RF sensitive ammeter ???? This doesn't sound like the instrument I looked at several years ago that came from Vans. Is this a powered device? More than two wires that only come from a shunt? >My address is >RH Dudley >8425 Littleleaf Ct. >Orlando, FL 32835 >Thanks. > >Regards, >Richard Dudley ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:46 AM PST US From: Sam Marlow Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds Thanks Doug for clarification! Sam Marlow Doug Windhorn wrote: > > > Larry, > > I'll take a stab at attempting to clarify this. It makes sense to run > all ground wires to a single ground point, including the avionics. > What I believe Bob is saying is that common ground point for the > avionics may be established near the avionics, then a single wire > connects the avionics ground point to the "forest of tabs" on the > firewall. > > In effect, this method uses the same ground point and the circuitry is > virtually identical from a current flow standpoint. It precludes the > possibility of alternate feed paths for the ground current, and may, > to some miniscule degree, reduce the possibility of electromagnetic > crosstalk. The avionics to firewall ground wire needs to be large > enough to handle the combined current demand of all of the avionics. > > I see plusses and minuses with the remote avionics ground point. On > the plus side is that the amount of wires from the panel to the > firewall is reduced making, possibly, for a cleaner wiring job, lower > weight (minimally), and so on. On the minus side is that failure of > the connection between the avionics ground and the firewall ground > wipes out all of the avionics (but a good installation should preclude > this from being a significant concern). It is a wash in my view, and > therefore, neither arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the > other. Weigh your concerns and use the system you feel most > comfortable with. > > Hope this helps. > > Doug Windhorn > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, 28 February, 2007 18:01 > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds > > >> >> >> Bob, >> >> To quote you, chapter 18 page 11 of the connection (hope I am not >> violating your copy write) >> "The forest-of-ground-tabs technique described in Chapter 5 is >> entirely suitable and convenient for most equipment in the electrical >> system. However, while it is electrically correct to wire all the >> panel mounted equipment to the same ground block the total number of >> wires can be significant. >> >> Further, given that there are a number of small signal systems >> vulnerable to noise concentrated on the panel, it makes sense to >> create separate and co-located ground system for these potential >> victims. ..." >> >> Are you saying that the separate and co-located avionics ground >> system is acceptable because the potential for noise from this design >> is minimal, and the advantage of not running many separate grounds >> from all the avionics to the ground bus outweighs the minimal noise >> potential. >> >> Can I then make the conclusion, that if the ground bus were near the >> avionics, running the wires a single bus would be minimally superior? >> >> Larry Rosen >> >> >> Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> >>> >>> At 11:32 AM 2/26/2007 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Do I need a separate ground for the Avionics, including the phones. >>>> Or will the ganged firewall (cool side) ground block be >>>> satisfactory for all my grounds? I think the audio panel (GMA 340) >>>> has a ground block. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Sam Marlow >>> >>> See chapter on Grounds in the 'Connection and in >>> particular the suggested architectures illustrated >>> in Figure Z-15 in . . . >>> >>> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf >>> >>> The term "need" is not quantifiable. There are tens >>> of thousands of vehicles including airplanes where >>> various systems in power distribution and signal >>> handling are "grounded" willy-nilly without consideration >>> for the physics >>> >>> For every builder that touts a "need" there will be >>> a half dozen who cite observations based on their >>> own experiences that contradict the notion of "need". >>> >>> Bottom line is that there are reasons based in physics >>> that show now potential for noise and/or degraded operation >>> can be elevated by inattention to grounding. It's easy >>> to do but if you don't wish to do it, probability of >>> a PERCEIVED degradation of performance is low. HOWEVER >>> when a build comes on the list citing some anomalous or >>> noisy behavior, the first question that enters my mind >>> is, "How are your grounds architectured?". >>> >>> If things are stuck down to the airframe without regard >>> to practices and principles KNOWN to reduce risk, then >>> identifying and fixing the problem can be much harder. >>> >>> None of us can tell you that you NEED to do anything >>> but plenty of us who will sympathize with you should >>> some noise problem present itself at some time in the >>> future. >>> >>> Bob . . . >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) >>> ( what ever you do must be exercised ) >>> ( EVERY day . . . ) >>> ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) >>> ---------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:01 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Van's Ammeter Bob, Yes, as I mentioned in my first e-mail, there are four connections, two in addition to the shunt for power and ground. Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 09:44 AM 3/1/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >> >> >> Bob, >> Thanks for the reply. >> I would prefer trying the external experiment before considering >> opening the meter. >> So, I'd like to take you up on your offer of the loan your capacitors >> to do the experiment. If it works, I'll replace your caps. >> Earlier, I tried to surpress RF which pinned the meter when I >> transmitted. A ferrite clamp on one lead did reduce the reaction. > > > ????? an RF sensitive ammeter ???? > > This doesn't sound like the instrument I looked at > several years ago that came from Vans. Is this a powered > device? More than two wires that only come from a shunt? > > >> My address is >> RH Dudley >> 8425 Littleleaf Ct. >> Orlando, FL 32835 >> Thanks. >> >> Regards, >> Richard Dudley > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Enjoy, http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/Downloads/downloads.htm Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:04 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Atlanta)" Well Im trying to get it and Ill post it for all. I cant even spell Garmen. Send it to me. Mike mstewartga@yahoo.com or mike.stewart@us.ibm.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Denton Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Hi, Group... There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced because the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I don't want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with stuff. Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... Thank you! Bill Denton bdenton@bdenton.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds At 12:08 PM 3/1/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >Thanks Doug for clarification! >Sam Marlow > >Doug Windhorn wrote: >> >> >>Larry, >> >>I'll take a stab at attempting to clarify this. It makes sense to run >>all ground wires to a single ground point, including the avionics. >>What I believe Bob is saying is that common ground point for the avionics >>may be established near the avionics, then a single wire connects the >>avionics ground point to the "forest of tabs" on the firewall. >> >>In effect, this method uses the same ground point and the circuitry is >>virtually identical from a current flow standpoint. It precludes the >>possibility of alternate feed paths for the ground current, and may, to >>some miniscule degree, reduce the possibility of electromagnetic >>crosstalk. The avionics to firewall ground wire needs to be large enough >>to handle the combined current demand of all of the avionics. >> >>I see plusses and minuses with the remote avionics ground point. On the >>plus side is that the amount of wires from the panel to the firewall is >>reduced making, possibly, for a cleaner wiring job, lower weight >>(minimally), and so on. On the minus side is that failure of the >>connection between the avionics ground and the firewall ground wipes out >>all of the avionics (but a good installation should preclude this from >>being a significant concern). It is a wash in my view, and therefore, >>neither arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the other. Weigh your >>concerns and use the system you feel most comfortable with. >> >>Hope this helps. >> >>Doug Windhorn Right on Doug. Thanks. The single-point failure issue is addressed by the notation you'll find on Figure Z-15 illustrations for the panel ground bus where I show five separate, 20AWG wires to run from the panel ground bus down to the firewall ground. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:35 AM PST US From: "6440 Auto Parts" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Not sure if this will help but you may give it a try. http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/Downloads/howtogetagarminmanual.htm The accual link to the 430 I think is http://www.garmin.com/manuals/143_InstallationManual.pdf Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Denton" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 8:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual > > > Hi, Group... > > There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. > > I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced > because > the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. > > Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. > > I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I > don't > want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want to > jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with > stuff. > > Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... > > Thank you! > > Bill Denton > bdenton@bdenton.com > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:13 AM PST US From: "6440 Auto Parts" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Mike thanks for your efforts of putting these on your website. As far as I can tell you are the only one that offers this service for free. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual > > > Enjoy, > http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/Downloads/downloads.htm > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:04 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual > > Atlanta)" > > Well Im trying to get it and Ill post it for all. > I cant even spell Garmen. > Send it to me. > Mike > mstewartga@yahoo.com or mike.stewart@us.ibm.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill > Denton > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:55 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual > > > > Hi, Group... > > There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. > > I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced > because > the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. > > Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. > > I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I > don't > want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want > to > jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with > stuff. > > Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... > > Thank you! > > Bill Denton > bdenton@bdenton.com > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 2 Grounds From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" I ran Power grounds for each radio to the forest of tabs, and used the 'remote ground' for all of the signal connection 'lows' and shields. With this setup, I believe that the connection from the remote ground to the forest of tabs is non-critical (although I agree it's failure potential rivals my chances of winning the lottery :-) Dennis Glaeser ---------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Windhorn --- <-snip-> --- On the minus side is that failure of the connection between the avionics ground and the firewall ground wipes out all of the avionics (but a good installation should preclude this from being a significant concern). It is a wash in my view, and therefore, neither arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the other. Weigh your concerns and use the system you feel most comfortable with. Hope this helps. Doug Windhorn ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:04 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: AeroElectric-List: 18 AH Battery Test Data Listers, FWIW I have been following the procedure of replacing my 18/17.X AH RG battery annually for the last two years. This year, I decided to do an endurance test on the "old" battery. Using an automotive two filament headlamp with the filaments in parallel, I was able to start at a current of 6.7 amps drain to simulate an endurance buss demand with a failed alternator. The battery has been used for one year including about 40 flight hours and 50 engine starts. The battery is a 17-18 AH sold by Batteries Plus sometimes with the name Xtreme Plus. My engine is an O-320 with 110 plus hours on it. These batteries turn the engine over very "smartly" only observed at temperatures above 60F. At the beginning of the test, the current was 6.7 A and at the end at 5.6 A . This decline is partly explained by the voltage decline as well as filament resistance decrease with temperature in the lamp. These results are consistent with the specification sheet provided for the Xtreme Plus batteries which predicts a two hour endurance at 6A. Regards, Richard Dudley ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" The service I get from this free list pales in comparison. Im humbled by all the great efforts by folks on this list. Glad to help and thanks for the kind words. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 6440 Auto Parts Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:07 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Mike thanks for your efforts of putting these on your website. As far as I can tell you are the only one that offers this service for free. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Atlanta)" > > > Enjoy, > http://www2.mstewart.net:8080/Downloads/downloads.htm > > Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:04 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual > > Atlanta)" > > Well Im trying to get it and Ill post it for all. > I cant even spell Garmen. > Send it to me. > Mike > mstewartga@yahoo.com or mike.stewart@us.ibm.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill > Denton > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:55 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual > > > > Hi, Group... > > There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. > > I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced > because > the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. > > Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. > > I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I > don't > want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want > to > jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with > stuff. > > Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... > > Thank you! > > Bill Denton > bdenton@bdenton.com > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:53 AM PST US From: rd2@evenlink.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Bill, Mike, thank you. Rumen do not archive _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta); Date: 11:03 AM 3/1/2007 -0500) ________________________________________________________________ Well Im trying to get it and Ill post it for all. I cant even spell Garmen. Send it to me. Mike mstewartga@yahoo.com or mike.stewart@us.ibm.com do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Denton Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:55 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 430W Install Manual Hi, Group... There seems to be a lot of interest in the 430W Install Manual. I emailed it to everyone who asked, but a lot of the emails bounced because the manual exceeded the recipients mailbox size limits. It is kinda big. Unfortunately, I have neither the software nor the time to "split" it. I considered putting it up somewhere so it could be downloaded, but I don't want Garmin coming after me for a copyright violation, and I don't want to jeopardize my relationship with my "guy" at Garmin who supplies me with stuff. Of course, if someone else posted it somewhere for the groups benefit... Thank you! Bill Denton bdenton@bdenton.com -- 3:16 PM ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:48 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch drilling template Hi all, Anyone can direct me to a drilling drawing or template I could print for a buddy to install his Otto T7 15/32 switches ? I remember seeing such a drawing, but can't remember where. Thanks in advance, Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:40 PM PST US From: Larry Rosen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds Thanks you all for the clarification Larry Do not archive Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 12:08 PM 3/1/2007 -0500, you wrote: > >> >> Thanks Doug for clarification! >> Sam Marlow >> >> Doug Windhorn wrote: >>> >>> >>> Larry, >>> >>> I'll take a stab at attempting to clarify this. It makes sense to >>> run all ground wires to a single ground point, including the avionics. >>> What I believe Bob is saying is that common ground point for the >>> avionics may be established near the avionics, then a single wire >>> connects the avionics ground point to the "forest of tabs" on the >>> firewall. >>> >>> In effect, this method uses the same ground point and the circuitry >>> is virtually identical from a current flow standpoint. It precludes >>> the possibility of alternate feed paths for the ground current, and >>> may, to some miniscule degree, reduce the possibility of >>> electromagnetic crosstalk. The avionics to firewall ground wire >>> needs to be large enough to handle the combined current demand of >>> all of the avionics. >>> >>> I see plusses and minuses with the remote avionics ground point. On >>> the plus side is that the amount of wires from the panel to the >>> firewall is reduced making, possibly, for a cleaner wiring job, >>> lower weight (minimally), and so on. On the minus side is that >>> failure of the connection between the avionics ground and the >>> firewall ground wipes out all of the avionics (but a good >>> installation should preclude this from being a significant >>> concern). It is a wash in my view, and therefore, neither >>> arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the other. Weigh your >>> concerns and use the system you feel most comfortable with. >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> >>> Doug Windhorn > > Right on Doug. Thanks. The single-point failure issue > is addressed by the notation you'll find on Figure Z-15 > illustrations for the panel ground bus where I show > five separate, 20AWG wires to run from the panel ground > bus down to the firewall ground. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:37 PM PST US From: "Eric Newton" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds I have a decidedly small and low tech avionics system. A single radio (ICOM A200) a single transponder (Colllins) and a single intercom (PS 1000). So with that simple of a system, I'll probably just run the ground wire from each component to the forest of tabs on the firewall. If I'm reading your post right, that's perfectly acceptable, right? Eric Newton - Long Beach, MS BH #682 http://mybearhawk.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Windhorn To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:26 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds Larry, I'll take a stab at attempting to clarify this. It makes sense to run all ground wires to a single ground point, including the avionics. What I believe Bob is saying is that common ground point for the avionics may be established near the avionics, then a single wire connects the avionics ground point to the "forest of tabs" on the firewall. In effect, this method uses the same ground point and the circuitry is virtually identical from a current flow standpoint. It precludes the possibility of alternate feed paths for the ground current, and may, to some miniscule degree, reduce the possibility of electromagnetic crosstalk. The avionics to firewall ground wire needs to be large enough to handle the combined current demand of all of the avionics. I see plusses and minuses with the remote avionics ground point. On the plus side is that the amount of wires from the panel to the firewall is reduced making, possibly, for a cleaner wiring job, lower weight (minimally), and so on. On the minus side is that failure of the connection between the avionics ground and the firewall ground wipes out all of the avionics (but a good installation should preclude this from being a significant concern). It is a wash in my view, and therefore, neither arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the other. Weigh your concerns and use the system you feel most comfortable with. Hope this helps. Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" To: Sent: Wednesday, 28 February, 2007 18:01 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds > > > Bob, > > To quote you, chapter 18 page 11 of the connection (hope I am not > violating your copy write) > "The forest-of-ground-tabs technique described in Chapter 5 is entirely > suitable and convenient for most equipment in the electrical system. > However, while it is electrically correct to wire all the panel mounted > equipment to the same ground block the total number of wires can be > significant. > > Further, given that there are a number of small signal systems vulnerable > to noise concentrated on the panel, it makes sense to create separate and > co-located ground system for these potential victims. ..." > > Are you saying that the separate and co-located avionics ground system is > acceptable because the potential for noise from this design is minimal, > and the advantage of not running many separate grounds from all the > avionics to the ground bus outweighs the minimal noise potential. > > Can I then make the conclusion, that if the ground bus were near the > avionics, running the wires a single bus would be minimally superior? > > Larry Rosen > > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 11:32 AM 2/26/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> >>> Do I need a separate ground for the Avionics, including the phones. Or >>> will the ganged firewall (cool side) ground block be satisfactory for >>> all my grounds? I think the audio panel (GMA 340) has a ground block. >>> Thanks, >>> Sam Marlow >> >> See chapter on Grounds in the 'Connection and in >> particular the suggested architectures illustrated >> in Figure Z-15 in . . . >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf >> >> The term "need" is not quantifiable. There are tens >> of thousands of vehicles including airplanes where >> various systems in power distribution and signal >> handling are "grounded" willy-nilly without consideration >> for the physics >> >> For every builder that touts a "need" there will be >> a half dozen who cite observations based on their >> own experiences that contradict the notion of "need". >> >> Bottom line is that there are reasons based in physics >> that show now potential for noise and/or degraded operation >> can be elevated by inattention to grounding. It's easy >> to do but if you don't wish to do it, probability of >> a PERCEIVED degradation of performance is low. HOWEVER >> when a build comes on the list citing some anomalous or >> noisy behavior, the first question that enters my mind >> is, "How are your grounds architectured?". >> >> If things are stuck down to the airframe without regard >> to practices and principles KNOWN to reduce risk, then >> identifying and fixing the problem can be much harder. >> >> None of us can tell you that you NEED to do anything >> but plenty of us who will sympathize with you should >> some noise problem present itself at some time in the >> future. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) >> ( what ever you do must be exercised ) >> ( EVERY day . . . ) >> ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:50 PM PST US From: "Bill Steer" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch drilling template There's one on page 11-16 of Bob's book. It's Figure 11-12. That's assuming the switches you mention are the same as the Carling switches described in the book. The 15/32 diameter is the same. Bill > Anyone can direct me to a drilling drawing or template I could print for a > buddy to install his Otto T7 15/32 switches ? > I remember seeing such a drawing, but can't remember where. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:41 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS Antenna? 3/1/2006 Hello Fellow Listers, I am trying to identify an object on the bottom of the fuselage of a Beech Sierra airplane. It is black plastic about the size of a cigar box. Embossed on the bottom of the box is an arrow pointing forward and the letters 3M. It was described at one time as a GPS antenna, but that does not make much sense to me. Why would a GPS antenna be on the bottom of the fuselage? I also am not able to locate any antenna created by 3M. Any good ideas? Many thanks. OC -- The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:28 PM PST US From: Earl_Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GPS Antenna? I have a similar looking box on my C-150. Mine is a 'loop' antenna for an old ADF. Earl bakerocb@cox.net wrote: > > > Hello Fellow Listers, I am trying to identify an object on the bottom > of the fuselage of a Beech Sierra airplane. It is black plastic about > the size of a cigar box. Embossed on the bottom of the box is an arrow > pointing forward and the letters 3M. > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:22 PM PST US From: "Doug Windhorn" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds Eric, Certainly a way that I could feel comfortable with (and the way I did mine). Doug ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Newton To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, 01 March, 2007 16:31 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds I have a decidedly small and low tech avionics system. A single radio (ICOM A200) a single transponder (Colllins) and a single intercom (PS 1000). So with that simple of a system, I'll probably just run the ground wire from each component to the forest of tabs on the firewall. If I'm reading your post right, that's perfectly acceptable, right? Eric Newton - Long Beach, MS BH #682 http://mybearhawk.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Windhorn To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 10:26 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds Larry, I'll take a stab at attempting to clarify this. It makes sense to run all ground wires to a single ground point, including the avionics. What I believe Bob is saying is that common ground point for the avionics may be established near the avionics, then a single wire connects the avionics ground point to the "forest of tabs" on the firewall. In effect, this method uses the same ground point and the circuitry is virtually identical from a current flow standpoint. It precludes the possibility of alternate feed paths for the ground current, and may, to some miniscule degree, reduce the possibility of electromagnetic crosstalk. The avionics to firewall ground wire needs to be large enough to handle the combined current demand of all of the avionics. I see plusses and minuses with the remote avionics ground point. On the plus side is that the amount of wires from the panel to the firewall is reduced making, possibly, for a cleaner wiring job, lower weight (minimally), and so on. On the minus side is that failure of the connection between the avionics ground and the firewall ground wipes out all of the avionics (but a good installation should preclude this from being a significant concern). It is a wash in my view, and therefore, neither arrangement is necessarily "superior" to the other. Weigh your concerns and use the system you feel most comfortable with. Hope this helps. Doug Windhorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Rosen" To: Sent: Wednesday, 28 February, 2007 18:01 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 2 Grounds > > > Bob, > > To quote you, chapter 18 page 11 of the connection (hope I am not > violating your copy write) > "The forest-of-ground-tabs technique described in Chapter 5 is entirely > suitable and convenient for most equipment in the electrical system. > However, while it is electrically correct to wire all the panel mounted > equipment to the same ground block the total number of wires can be > significant. > > Further, given that there are a number of small signal systems vulnerable > to noise concentrated on the panel, it makes sense to create separate and > co-located ground system for these potential victims. ..." > > Are you saying that the separate and co-located avionics ground system is > acceptable because the potential for noise from this design is minimal, > and the advantage of not running many separate grounds from all the > avionics to the ground bus outweighs the minimal noise potential. > > Can I then make the conclusion, that if the ground bus were near the > avionics, running the wires a single bus would be minimally superior? > > Larry Rosen > > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: III" >> >> >> At 11:32 AM 2/26/2007 -0500, you wrote: >> >>> >>> Do I need a separate ground for the Avionics, including the phones. Or >>> will the ganged firewall (cool side) ground block be satisfactory for >>> all my grounds? I think the audio panel (GMA 340) has a ground block. >>> Thanks, >>> Sam Marlow >> >> See chapter on Grounds in the 'Connection and in >> particular the suggested architectures illustrated >> in Figure Z-15 in . . . >> >> http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf >> >> The term "need" is not quantifiable. There are tens >> of thousands of vehicles including airplanes where >> various systems in power distribution and signal >> handling are "grounded" willy-nilly without consideration >> for the physics >> >> For every builder that touts a "need" there will be >> a half dozen who cite observations based on their >> own experiences that contradict the notion of "need". >> >> Bottom line is that there are reasons based in physics >> that show now potential for noise and/or degraded operation >> can be elevated by inattention to grounding. It's easy >> to do but if you don't wish to do it, probability of >> a PERCEIVED degradation of performance is low. HOWEVER >> when a build comes on the list citing some anomalous or >> noisy behavior, the first question that enters my mind >> is, "How are your grounds architectured?". >> >> If things are stuck down to the airframe without regard >> to practices and principles KNOWN to reduce risk, then >> identifying and fixing the problem can be much harder. >> >> None of us can tell you that you NEED to do anything >> but plenty of us who will sympathize with you should >> some noise problem present itself at some time in the >> future. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) >> ( what ever you do must be exercised ) >> ( EVERY day . . . ) >> ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > nbsp; Features Subscriptions href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. p; available via href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:13 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. 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Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:04 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.