---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 03/03/07: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:38 AM - Re: GPS Antenna? () 2. 08:25 AM - Garmin 530W Install manual (Tim Lewis) 3. 10:45 AM - Re: affordable panels (Jekyll) 4. 11:30 AM - Re: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (Jerry Grimmonpre) 5. 12:03 PM - Re: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (Dave N6030X) 6. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:44 PM - Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 01:21 PM - What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 02:23 PM - Re: What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (Jerry Grimmonpre) 10. 02:43 PM - What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (BobsV35B@aol.com) 11. 02:48 PM - Re: What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 02:53 PM - Re: Stereo Input Jack (Chris Byrne) 13. 02:55 PM - Re: What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 03:04 PM - What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (BobsV35B@aol.com) 15. 03:12 PM - Electrolumenesent Light. (Chris Byrne) 16. 04:20 PM - Turbocad question (kesleyelectric) 17. 05:37 PM - Re: Turbocad question (Steve Allison) 18. 05:42 PM - Re: Turbocad question (LarryMcFarland) 19. 05:43 PM - Re: Battery Tenders as recharging tools . . . (Dennis Golden) 20. 06:07 PM - Re: Turbocad question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 06:10 PM - Re: What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 06:25 PM - What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (BobsV35B@aol.com) 23. 06:27 PM - Re: affordable panels (Greg Vouga) 24. 07:12 PM - Re: What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (84KF) 25. 09:22 PM - Re: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:27 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GPS Antenna? 3/3/2007 Thanks to all that responded. It is indeed a Stormscope antenna made by 3M back in the days when they were replacing Ryan as the manufacturer of that equipment. OC -- The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:11 PM Subject: GPS Antenna? > 3/1/2006 > > Hello Fellow Listers, I am trying to identify an object on the bottom of > the fuselage of a Beech Sierra airplane. It is black plastic about the > size of a cigar box. Embossed on the bottom of the box is an arrow > pointing forward and the letters 3M. > > It was described at one time as a GPS antenna, but that does not make much > sense to me. Why would a GPS antenna be on the bottom of the fuselage? I > also am not able to locate any antenna created by 3M. > > Any good ideas? Many thanks. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:12 AM PST US From: Tim Lewis Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin 530W Install manual Does anyone have access to a Garmin 530W Install manual? I've tried , but I haven't stumbled on to the correct file name yet. Thanks, Tim Lewis -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD -- 850 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: affordable panels From: "Jekyll" Fabian is great to work with. The product is first rate and the service will leave you wondering why others can't do as well. The prices are VERY fair. Everything fit like a glove. Fabian worked with Stark on my behalf to ensure my harnesses were set up correctly for my installation. The 3-piece panel will greatly simplify future maintenance. I included a drawing of my panel to show you what you get. He'll first send a CAD of your prospective panel so you can evaluate and make necessary adjustments. When satisfied, let him know and he'll laser cut it and ship it out. I had him design and cut my panel then I did all the installation and wiring. I can't say enough about Affordable Panels. Jekyll Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98511#98511 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/grt_and_kmd_150_146.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:02 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Hi Bob ... Couldn't agree more with the idea of using a venturi's to drive a single instrument. The idea of driving a vacuum driven horizon has pulled at me for some time. The group of three info providing life savers ... attitude, airspeed and altitude are all air driven and simple. The only one needing vacuum could easily be driven with an 8" venturi. The venturi does require high velocity air over and through it to pull the vacuum. My son and I were experimenting yesterday with a venturi 6" long X 2" diameter. It will drive a turn needle (as it's designed to do) but a horizon needs more beef to sustain it. I like the idea of putting the venturi in the cowl exit air and I will try that with a couple other venturi's. I also will create a gill type venturi which could be placed on the side of the fuselage, right beside the inst panel so the vacuum could be within about a foot of the horizon. When I have the mods completed on my RV4 (before Spring) it will be used for this test bed. The venturi is but one of these test items. Has anyone on the list messed with a gill type venturi? My fondest hope would be to create something made similar a NACA vent that could simply be bonded/riveted onto the sheet metal and plug in a vacuum line. Done! It's probably more involved than just that but it's the essence of the thought. You have to admit Bob, one peek at a vacuum horizon is worth 20 peeks at a T&B ... : ) Jerry Grimmonpre ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Good Afternoon Steve, What I don't understand is why more folks don't use venturi's. They work well, are cheap and are very reliable. If they are mounted on the belly in the path of the airflow from the engine, they even have reasonable protection from ice. Many airplanes flew in heavy IFR weather for many years using nothing but a venturi to power all of the instruments. What gave venturi's a bad name was when foolish people started to mount them on the side of the fuselage instead in the airstream behind the engine. I have a small venturi powering a single T&B. If all else fails, I can easily control the airplane with just that one T&B. If I have any altitude information at all it is easy. Add a handheld GPS and I have more than the fanciest airplanes had in the thirties. One point though. Partial panel can be done with a turn coordinator, but I much prefer the classic T&B. It is about the most reliable mechanical instrument we have ever had. Some day, I am sure there will be a solid state turn indicator that will replace the T&B. However, until that time. Get a T&B, power it with a small venturi and spend a thousand bucks on dual training getting thoroughly familiar with using the T&B to control the airplane. Happy Skies, Old Bob ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:47 PM PST US From: Dave N6030X Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump I don't know about you guys, but if I were building an experimental and had no Type Certificate I had to abide by, I would be spending my time figuring out how to build a bullet proof electrical system and getting rid of anything that had the word Vacuum in it. It's an old, archaic technology that, at the present date, serves ONLY to make gyros cheaper. The vacuum pumps are less reliable or long-lived than an alternator, and you're basically building a parallel power system for gyros that adds weight and complexity, hoses, filters, etc, and so on. If you've got redundant electrical, and you are now worrying about a backup vacuum system, you're basically building QUADRUPLE parallel systems to power gyros. That's insane to me. Build redundancy into the electrical system, use solid state gyros, eschew vacuum. Or was that "escrew"? Dave Morris Stuck in the 60's with a vacuum powered Mooney At 01:29 PM 3/3/2007, you wrote: >Hi Bob ... >Couldn't agree more with the idea of using a venturi's to drive a >single instrument. The idea of driving a vacuum driven horizon has >pulled at me for some time. The group of three info providing life >savers ... attitude, airspeed and altitude are all air driven and >simple. The only one needing vacuum could easily be driven with an >8" venturi. The venturi does require high velocity air over and >through it to pull the vacuum. My son and I were experimenting >yesterday with a venturi 6" long X 2" diameter. It will drive a >turn needle (as it's designed to do) but a horizon needs more beef >to sustain it. I like the idea of putting the venturi in the cowl >exit air and I will try that with a couple other venturi's. I also >will create a gill type venturi which could be placed on the side of >the fuselage, right beside the inst panel so the vacuum could be >within about a foot of the horizon. When I have the mods completed >on my RV4 (before Spring) it will be used for this test bed. The >venturi is but one of these test items. Has anyone on the list >messed with a gill type venturi? My fondest hope would be to >create something made similar a NACA vent that could simply be >bonded/riveted onto the sheet metal and plug in a vacuum >line. Done! It's probably more involved than just that but it's >the essence of the thought. > >You have to admit Bob, one peek at a vacuum horizon is worth 20 >peeks at a T&B ... : ) >Jerry Grimmonpre >----- Original Message ----- >From: BobsV35B@aol.com >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 4:00 PM >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump > >Good Afternoon Steve, > >What I don't understand is why more folks don't use venturi's. They >work well, are cheap and are very reliable. If they are mounted on >the belly in the path of the airflow from the engine, they even have >reasonable protection from ice. > >Many airplanes flew in heavy IFR weather for many years using >nothing but a venturi to power all of the instruments. What gave >venturi's a bad name was when foolish people started to mount them >on the side of the fuselage instead in the airstream behind the >engine. I have a small venturi powering a single T&B. If all else >fails, I can easily control the airplane with just that one T&B. If >I have any altitude information at all it is easy. Add a handheld >GPS and I have more than the fanciest airplanes had in the thirties. > >One point though. Partial panel can be done with a turn coordinator, >but I much prefer the classic T&B. It is about the most reliable >mechanical instrument we have ever had. Some day, I am sure there >will be a solid state turn indicator that will replace the T&B. >However, until that time. Get a T&B, power it with a small venturi >and spend a thousand bucks on dual training getting thoroughly >familiar with using the T&B to control the airplane. > >Happy Skies, > >Old Bob > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: batteries At 05:28 PM 3/2/2007 -0800, you wrote: > > > >N1DeltaWhiskey(at)comcast wrote: > > What is the voltage drop you expect in #4 vs. #2 wire for a 6' run > (out and back) while flowing about 250 amps? >This is apparently about a Rotax 91x engine, though? The starter relay >supplied with my kitplane for a 912/914 is 70A. More consistent with the >kW spec of the starter motor. Maybe 50A average? "Ratings" on switching contacts are to be considered with a grain of salt . . . or sand. The probability of satisfactory service life is only loosely related to "ratings". The ratings are based on numbers of times a contact can SWITCH certain kinds of loads . . . interestingly enough, starter motors on engines are almost NEVER included in the suite of standard loads for the establishment of ratings. For example, the el-cheeso battery contactors used on tens of thousands of GA aircraft are RATED at 70A, yet we've routinely cranked engines through these devices with draws of 200-300 amps for decades. Given the enduring presence of these critters in the marketplace, one must deduce that users are seeing a satisfactory service life. I.e., good value for the investment. The thing that's hard on devices that switch starters is not the average running current. The switch-killer is the locked-rotor or inrush current that flows in the milliseconds that the motor is accelerating up from zero velocity while at the same time, contacts on the switch are making MULTIPLE closures. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/switch_transition.jpg These are switches and not contactors but the effects are similar for all such devices. In a millisecond to a millisecond and a half, these switches close, open and re-close many times. This is why we SWITCH starter loads with STARTER CONTACTORS. These have exceedingly thin and light contacts compared to continuous duty contactors . . . these contacts are driven together with much greater force so as to minimize the bouncing and contact resistance. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S702-1b.jpg Another consideration for service life is total operations per flight hour extrapolated out to total operations per year. In the average GA aircraft, any switch or contactor is hard pressed to see more than a few hundred operations per year . . . a device that is RATED in the tens of thousands of operations at RATED loads that may not be representative of what the switch really sees in the airplane. It's easy to see that many components might deliver satisfactory service life in terms of chronological age in the airplane in spite of being "overloaded" with respect to catalog ratings. Keep in mind too that connections, and contacts for switching devices ADD TO THE TOTAL loop resistance and may DOUBLE the total loop resistance when compared wire resistance alone. These are some of the reasons why it's not terribly useful to agonize over the resistance of 2AWG vs 4AWG or the ratings of any particular switch or contactor over another. The ultimate test of your cranking system's ability to get the engine moving is only measurable with some pretty sophisticated test equipment. I have a DAS that will gather 2000 samples per second so that instantaneous energy losses in the various components and wire lengths can be quantified and decisions made for optimization. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from a quest to understand the finer details of their ship's electrical system . . . but know too that decisions made on rudimentary, single item calculations and/or catalog data for components may not stand on solid physics. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:31 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump In a message dated 3/3/2007 1:31:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, jerry@mc.net writes: You have to admit Bob, one peek at a vacuum horizon is worth 20 peeks at a T&B ... : ) Jerry Grimmonpre Good Afternoon Jerry, I am not so sure I would agree. It is possible to have two artificial horizons that are both active and that change attitude when you roll, but one may be accurate and the other not. You have to decide which is correct. Attitude gyros do occasionally get the "leans". In at least ninety-nine and forty-four one hundredths of a percent of the times, if the T&B is wiggling, it is working. And, if we are confused as to where up is, it is hard to believe an instrument that does not agree with our senses. However, we don't have to agree with the T&B. If it says we are not turning , we will survive. It makes no difference at all where we think up is. No turns, no problem! Not only that, but even a cheap old airline pilot can afford one. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:13 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Good Afternoon Dave, I don't think doing whatever anyone wants to do to their personal experimental aircraft is ever insane. And, as a matter of fact, my 1978 Bonanza is now an all electric machine, so I do agree that going all electric is a reasonable thing to do. If someone does wish to add another back up to whatever is being used, adding a single T&B powered by a single Venturi is about as light and cheap as any standby can be. There is absolutely no requirement in the FARs that any of our older airplanes have any redundancy at all. My first Bonanza had one vacuum pump, one vacuum T&B, and one vacuum directional gyro. No attitude gyro and no back up for the Vacuum. Perfectly legal for IFR at the time. I added an electric T&B because I wanted a little more redundancy than was installed in the airplane when I bought it. When the Attitude Gyro was added to the list of instruments required for IFR light, I added a vacuum driven attitude gyro. Still -- No redundancy required. While some of the more recently approved airplanes do have redundancy built into their certification limitations, we have no more requirement for redundancy that do the homebuilders among us. To each his own and all that stuff! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 3/3/2007 2:05:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, N6030X@DaveMorris.com writes: I don't know about you guys, but if I were building an experimental and had no Type Certificate I had to abide by, I would be spending my time figuring out how to build a bullet proof electrical system and getting rid of anything that had the word Vacuum in it. It's an old, archaic technology that, at the present date, serves ONLY to make gyros cheaper. The vacuum pumps are less reliable or long-lived than an alternator, and you're basically building a parallel power system for gyros that adds weight and complexity, hoses, filters, etc, and so on. If you've got redundant electrical, and you are now worrying about a backup vacuum system, you're basically building QUADRUPLE parallel systems to power gyros. That's insane to me.


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:42 PM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Old Bob ... Wouldn't you opt for a vacuum horizon, even one that has the leans when the EFIS locks up on final to an instrument runway? This has happened while vectored to a runway not selected in the EFIS. It ended happily to another pilot who resorted to backup instruments. Any instrument or piece of hardware that will get your wings near level, even a leaning vacuum driven horizon, is better than none at all . Bottom line is EFIS requires back up stuff to level the wings and stay out of the weeds ... autopilot, vac horizon, t&b, altimeter and airspeed. Betting on EFIS alone is something not even Boeing does. Jerry ... ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:30 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Good Evening Jerry, I like the T&B. If I had to choose between having only an artificial horizon or only a T&B , I would take the T&B every time. The company took away our T&Bs back when I was flying the 720. I flew it between 1968 and 1972 so imagine the T&B was eliminated in about 1970. I do recall that the first time I got in turbulence after that was when I first missed the T&B. I had not realized I had been using it to kill the Dutch roll, but as soon as it started, my eyes fell to where the T&B had been located. I realize that I also suffer from the disease of primacy. When I was getting my instrument training, we were not allowed to use an Artificial Horizon or a Directional Gyro. All the training and all the check rides were done strictly on partial panel. I managed to learn how to use those fancy gyros later in life, but I have always reverted to the T&B when things started to get confusing. Since I tend to get confused easily, I looked at the T&B a lot! It is still the most reliable mechanical instrument available. And it is light, cheap, and simple. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 3/3/2007 4:25:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, jerry@mc.net writes: Old Bob ... Wouldn't you opt for a vacuum horizon, even one that has the leans when the EFIS locks up on final to an instrument runway? This has happened while vectored to a runway not selected in the EFIS. It ended happily to another pilot who resorted to backup instruments. Any instrument or piece of hardware that will get your wings near level, even a leaning vacuum driven horizon, is better than none at all . Bottom line is EFIS requires back up stuff to level the wings and stay out of the weeds ... autopilot, vac horizon, t&b, altimeter and airspeed. Betting on EFIS alone is something not even Boeing does. Jerry ...


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump At 04:21 PM 3/3/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Old Bob ... >Wouldn't you opt for a vacuum horizon, even one that has the leans when >the EFIS locks up on final to an instrument runway? This has happened >while vectored to a runway not selected in the EFIS. It ended happily to >another pilot who resorted to backup instruments. Any instrument or piece >of hardware that will get your wings near level, even a leaning vacuum >driven horizon, is better than none at all . Bottom line is EFIS requires >back up stuff to level the wings and stay out of the weeds ... autopilot, >vac horizon, t&b, altimeter and airspeed. Betting on EFIS alone is >something not even Boeing does. >Jerry ... The least expensive, lightest, most useful and simplest backup for any panel presentation of attitude is the GPS aided wing leveler. If one is concerned for reducing risks for failure of some piece of panel equipment degrading the day's flight into an unhappy event, the most risk free reversion mode is to let a/p take over. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:35 PM PST US From: "Chris Byrne" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Stereo Input Jack G'Day Carl Thanks for your help Carl. I am still a bit confused though. I should have been a bit clearer, I am trying to wire the female socket. This sort of stuff is not my forte. Stein did mine and I did clarify it once with them but have lost the info, I have had a bit going on lately. I might just have to pester them again. Mine should have flown in Jan but I have had a bit of a hiatus. Regards Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Morgan To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:28 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Stereo Input Jack Hi Chris, Assuming your harness was made be Stark (which I think it was) and it is the same as mine.... DB44-340-J2:23 - Music 1 L In Audio In - White DB44-340-J2:24 - Music 1 R In Audio In - White/Orange DB44-340-J2:25 - Music 1 Return Audio In - White/Blue Standard 3.5 mm music jack Tip - Left Channel Ring - Right Channel Sleeve - Ground / Common HTH, Carl -- ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/ -----Original Message----- From: Chris Byrne [mailto:jack.byrne@bigpond.com] Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2007 7:45 p.m. To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stereo Input Jack I have a stereo jack to install for input to a GMA 340. The jack has one long lug which I will attach the white wire to. The jack has 2 shorter lugs, a bronze colour and a silver colour. I have a 3 wire cable from the GMA340 wired by the supplier. Which lug should the white/blue wire and the white/orange wire go to or dosnt it matter. The logic to the earphone jack is white/blue to tip and white/ orange to the ring if that helps. Thanks Chris Byrne SYDNEY href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 2/03/2007 4:19 PM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:49 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump In a message dated 3/3/2007 4:40:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, Bobs V35B writes: Betting on EFIS alone is something not even Boeing does. Jerry ... Just a bit more Jerry, I am not ready to rely on having nothing but glass. In fact, I do not believe I will buy a glass cockpit for several years, if ever. I am happy with the classic instruments and I will buy as cheap an MFD as I can get to play with while I fly the airplane in reference to "traditional" information. I would imagine that I will buy glass when it becomes cheaper than traditional instrumentation. I DO believe that will eventually happen. Odds are that I will still have an Airspeed, T&B and Altimeter all in a row very close to my primary scan area! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:12 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Good Evening Bob, I do agree that having a wing leveler is a great idea. I even like the way Mooney hooked it up so that we had to press on a button any time we wanted to hand fly the airplane, but I do not believe you will find ANY wing leveler that can be installed as cheaply as can a venturi powered vacuum T&B. An electrically powered T&B is even cheaper if you do not count the cost of having an electrical system to power it. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 3/3/2007 4:50:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckollsr@cox.net writes: The least expensive, lightest, most useful and simplest backup for any panel presentation of attitude is the GPS aided wing leveler. If one is concerned for reducing risks for failure of some piece of panel equipment degrading the day's flight into an unhappy event, the most risk free reversion mode is to let a/p take over. Bob . . .


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:27 PM PST US From: "Chris Byrne" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electrolumenesent Light. Bob I finally got around to daisy chaining my lighting strips. It works well. I had a bit of trouble working out how to attach the wires to the strips though. I found a strip of PCB material with 6 lugs attached to it. They were held in place by inserting them through the holes in the PCB material and folding over 4 small ears. Just a matter of unfolding the ears and removing them from the PCB. A nail through the lighting strip and attaching the lugs worked well, solder on your wire prior to attaching the lugs to the illumenesent strip. Chris Byrne SYDNEY ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:51 PM PST US From: "kesleyelectric" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad question Having recently picked up Turbocad, I find that I can open and edit the Z drawings, but cannot get the program to keep the wires attached as various components are moved around. If my old copy of Visio is able to create attach points anywhere on the figure and do dynamic connector lines (wires), I'm sure T-cad 10 should be able to, but I have yet to discover how to enable it. Any help appreciated. Tom Barter Avid Magnum ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:07 PM PST US From: Steve Allison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad question kesleyelectric wrote: > Having recently picked up Turbocad, I find that I can open and edit > the Z drawings, but cannot get the program to keep the wires attached > as various components are moved around. If my old copy of Visio is > able to create attach points anywhere on the figure and do dynamic > connector lines (wires), I'm sure T-cad 10 should be able to, but I > have yet to discover how to enable it. Any help appreciated. > Tom, Unfortunately TurboCAD does not have the "rubber banding" capability of Visio and some of the electrical schematic CAD programs. There isn't any way to drag a component and have all the lines (wires) stay attached and be repositioned after dropping the component. Steve ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:42:26 PM PST US From: LarryMcFarland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad question Hi Tom, There is a page for *line connection* that contains the parameters that are relevant when "connect lines" is activated. It will allow you to set gap for connections, length for deletion and angle at which line segments will be joined into polylines. Then with the grid turned on points will stay in place if you use "g" when closing a line. "V" for vector or end of a line is a means of connecting a line end to another. The selection arrow can be interchanged with a node pointer that will allow you to place line ends and points about a curve or polygon. Dimensioning blocks provided for entering dimensional, positional and orientation data will also anchor line ends for you. Snaps are a means to secure ends to a myriad of features and requires a bit of study to keep them all straight, but they will also do the trick. Sounds like you only need a little more time with the program to learn its features. Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com do not archive kesleyelectric wrote: > Having recently picked up Turbocad, I find that I can open and edit > the Z drawings, but cannot get the program to keep the wires attached > as various components are moved around. If my old copy of Visio is > able to create attach points anywhere on the figure and do dynamic > connector lines (wires), I'm sure T-cad 10 should be able to, but I > have yet to discover how to enable it. Any help appreciated. > > Tom Barter > Avid Magnum ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:25 PM PST US From: Dennis Golden Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Tenders as recharging tools . . . James H Nelson wrote: > > Where is a good place to buy the Schumacher chargers? > > Jim Nelson Got mine at Wal Mart -- Dennis Golden Golden Consulting Services, Inc. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Turbocad question At 05:34 PM 3/3/2007 -0800, you wrote: >kesleyelectric wrote: >>Having recently picked up Turbocad, I find that I can open and edit the Z >>drawings, but cannot get the program to keep the wires attached as >>various components are moved around. If my old copy of Visio is able to >>create attach points anywhere on the figure and do dynamic connector >>lines (wires), I'm sure T-cad 10 should be able to, but I have yet to >>discover how to enable it. Any help appreciated. > >Tom, > >Unfortunately TurboCAD does not have the "rubber banding" capability of >Visio and some of the electrical schematic CAD programs. There isn't any >way to drag a component and have all the lines (wires) stay attached and >be repositioned after dropping the component. Like in AutoCAD, it's called Stretch under the modify pulldown. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump At 06:01 PM 3/3/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Good Evening Bob, > >I do agree that having a wing leveler is a great idea. > >I even like the way Mooney hooked it up so that we had to press on a >button any time we wanted to hand fly the airplane, but I do not believe >you will find ANY wing leveler that can be installed as cheaply as can a >venturi powered vacuum T&B. > >An electrically powered T&B is even cheaper if you do not count the cost >of having an electrical system to power it. But, like all presentations under glass, it depends on the integrity of a sensor/display/perception/reaction servo loop of which includes a human having to work with the reality of a rare but now present failure. N/B/AS is a useful but exceedingly lousy alternative to stable gyros. I wouldn't own an airplane without a gps aided wing leveler just because it makes flying so much more relaxed . . . whether the stuff under the glass is working or not and a whole lot lower risk when it is not. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:38 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: What is insane? Was: AeroElectric-List: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump Good Evening Bob, May I take that to mean that you would want a GPS aided wing leveler in a Stearman?, Piper Cub?, Luscombe?, Cessna 140? Cessna 172, Beech Musketeer?, Beech Bonanza? North American AT-6? Twin Beech? Where would you draw the line? All of the above? None of the above? Some of the above? I have never flown any airplane that had a GPS aided wing lever though I have flown and owned plenty that did have wing levelers. We all have to make individual decisions on what we feel meets our individual level of risk, but requiring a GPS aided wing leveler is not real high on my list of necessities. Interesting that you think such a device is imperative. Just goes to show, there is a wide range of desires among us all. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 3/3/2007 8:11:28 P.M. Central Standard Time, nuckollsr@cox.net writes: But, like all presentations under glass, it depends on the integrity of a sensor/display/perception/reaction servo loop of which includes a human having to work with the reality of a rare but now present failure. N/B/AS is a useful but exceedingly lousy alternative to stable gyros. I wouldn't own an airplane without a gps aided wing leveler just because it makes flying so much more relaxed . . . whether the stuff under the glass is working or not and a whole lot lower risk when it is not. Bob . . .


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AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:34 PM PST US From: "Greg Vouga" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: affordable panels I also have had a great experience dealing with Affordable Panels. Fabian is patient, fair, and easy to work with. I just received my panel a couple weeks ago and had a question last Saturday. I thought I would just call and leave a message for him, but he actually picked up the phone and helped me out over the weekend. Great product and great service. Greg RV-7A Raleigh, NC >From: John Morgensen >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: affordable panels >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:50:13 -0800 > > > >I am still designing my panel but let me make a few points anyway: > >1. The modular panel does cost some panel space and flexibility. That may >or may not be significant. > >2. If you have 2 big screens in your panel, then you have 2 large access >holes for maintenance. > >I am leaning toward Van's standard panel. > >John Morgensen RV9A > >Mark/Kara Phillips wrote: >> >> >>Fabian is very knowledgeable about his product and will go out of his way >>to help you. Very positive experience. >> >>Mark Phillips >>Williamsville Illinois >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Jones" >>To: >>Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 2:05 AM >>Subject: AeroElectric-List: affordable panels >> >> >>> >>> >>>Any one have feed back on there experience with Affordable Panels service >>>or product? >>> >>>Thanks >>>Jonsey >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98264#98264 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - Refinance $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro*Terms https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h27f6&disc=y&vers=743&s=4056&p=5117 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: What is insane? Was: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump From: "84KF" That's the difference between a pilot and a cockpit resource manager Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=98585#98585 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup Electric Vacuum Pump >At 09:23 PM 3/3/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Good Evening Bob, >May I take that to mean that you would want a GPS aided wing leveler in a Stearman?, >Piper Cub?, Luscombe?, Cessna 140? Cessna 172, Beech Musketeer?, >Beech Bonanza? North American AT-6? Twin Beech? Sure, why not? The answer is simple for most owners but for myself, I wouldn't own one of those airplanes because I need to stand in line at too many windows begging permission to make it better. >Where would you draw the line? All of the above? None of the >above? Some of the above? You have just illuminated the reason that those airplanes are all rotting away never to be replaced. The GPS aided wing leveler is mechanically no more difficult to install in one of those airplanes than in an RV. But those who claim to know more about what's good for us have become the mill-stones between which those airplanes are slowly turning to dust. >I have never flown any airplane that had a GPS aided wing lever >though I have flown and owned plenty that did have wing levelers. >We all have to make individual decisions on what we feel meets our >individual level of risk, but requiring a GPS aided wing leveler >is not real high on my list of necessities. Interesting that you >think such a device is imperative. Depends on what your design goals are. For most of the the folks on this List, reducing cost of ownership is a goal. Dependency on a T&B traded for dependency on a GPS aided wing leveler offers a lower cost of ownership over the lifetime of the airplane. >Just goes to show, there is a wide range of desires among us all. If the "desire" is to minimize the probability of an unhappy ending to a piece of equipment failing, then the design goals are pretty clear. I've watched the conversations here on the List and elsewhere for over a decade that vigorously debated the value of this technique or piece of equipment over that . . . But seldom did the conversation recommend reversion modes that reduce, not increase pilot workload. I'm dead-nuts serious about the admonition in my signature tag . . . an exceedingly small number of pilots accomplish daily practice for standard (much less reversion) modes flight in IMC. I understand that you may be personally comfortable . . . and perhaps world class in skills and willingness to fly through clouds with the venerable tools of yesteryear. I've done it too. But I cannot in good conscience recommend that the neophyte builder embrace these techniques today when there are better options that are cheap as a percentage of the total cost of acquiring, owning and operating an airplane. In a cost-of-ownership accounting, the venturi-driven T&B offered as a gift will be more expensive in $time$ expended than what's needed to install the modern alternative. Further, the GPS aided wing leveler adds value to a high percentage of every flight while the T&B is useful for calibrating your rudder pressure on climb-out, setting rudder trim, and being there to assist with the management of a failure that you hope will never come but demands a perpetual investment of $time$ to make sure you are ready when it does. Very few of us are professional pilots. Those of us who are should be mindful of advice which presumes that all listeners are interested in (or even capable of) achieving levels of proficiency needed to avoid quantum jumps in risk after certain failures. This isn't about a "wide range of desires" but simple failure modes effects analysis in a market place where the pilots come with a wide range of capability and willingness to spend $time$ necessary to level the risks if not lower them. One of the reasons why I see an opportunity for OBAM aviation to excel in accident reduction is because we can readily take advantage of modernization opportunities for reducing workload without begging anyone's permission. When the GPS aided wing leveler is present, failure of the primary display does not generate an immediate need to revert to a whole new mode of flying. When one is depending on primary attitude displays to stay upright, then reversion to N/B/AS aviating at the same level of risk demands and investment of $time$ for maintenance of proficiency. The GPS aided wing leveler will hold track to within a degree or so all day, every day and doesn't need a bit of practice to stay "world class" at the task. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.