---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/21/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:11 AM - Radio aerial groundplane (brian Williams) 2. 06:03 AM - Re: Popped CB () 3. 06:39 AM - Re: Radio aerial groundplane (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:57 AM - Re: Re: Extra credit quiz (Matt Prather) 5. 10:58 AM - XLR connectors (B Tomm) 6. 11:35 AM - Re: XLR connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 11:35 AM - Re: RF antenna connectors (Dennis Jones) 8. 12:05 PM - Re: XLR connectors (Carlos Trigo) 9. 12:23 PM - Glideslope Antennas () 10. 12:51 PM - Re: Glideslope Antennas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 11. 12:57 PM - Re: XLR connectors () 12. 01:38 PM - Re: XLR connectors (Tim Olson) 13. 02:05 PM - Re: Glideslope Antennas () 14. 02:19 PM - Glideslope Antennas (BobsV35B@aol.com) 15. 02:32 PM - Re: Glideslope Antennas (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 16. 02:38 PM - Re: XLR connectors (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 17. 03:19 PM - Re: XLR connectors (Tim Olson) 18. 05:29 PM - Re: XLR connectors (Charlie England) 19. 05:49 PM - Re: Re: Extra credit quiz (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 09:22 PM - SD8 Connection queries (Stephen Reynolds) 21. 10:24 PM - What did I do wrong? (John Burnaby) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:11:32 AM PST US From: "brian Williams" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio aerial groundplane Hi Bob and list. Have been following list for some time, really excellent source of information. I have a carbon fibre shell aircraft, Pioneer 300, can I use the carbon fibre belly pan as a ground plane or should I fit a separate one. The same question is asked about the transponder aerial, and how far from the comms aerial should it be. Thanks for great list. Brian ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:57 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Popped CB > > How do you deduce whether or not it's charging? What > kind of instrumentation do you have? > >I'm using the Grand Rapids Tech EIS. The window where "Voltage" is >displayed showed ~ 10.8 volts. Rotax manual indicates a permanent >output of 13.5 v. >Additionally, the Dynon EFIS would not come on with the Master, but it >did come on with the EBus switched on (with the master also on). (When >testing during installation I noted previously the Dynon will come on >with the master if the battery is fully charged. When battery is not >fully charged the Master does not bring it on line but the EBus will.) Okay, you need to put a voltmeter on the AC input wires to the regulator with the engine running (yellow) and see what voltage you get there at moderate RPMs (don't need to run up to full throttle . . . just see that here's a substantial voltage there - 20 volts or more). I was able to get 20 v at 2600 RPM Do I presume correctly that you're wired per the latest verstion of Z-16? Is the relay closing (hear it 'click') when you move the master switch to full up position? You can do this while the engine is not running so you can listen. I have Revision 11, May 05. Yes, the battery relay closes (I can hear it click and the EIS, radio, etc comes on). If the regulator is still the same version I looked at some years ago, it depends on a GOOD ground between regulator case and your firewall ground bolt. Regulator is well grounded--bolted directly on firewall and check with Ohm meter = 0. Frank ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio aerial groundplane At 11:05 AM 3/21/2007 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Bob and list. > >Have been following list for some time, really excellent source of >information. > >I have a carbon fibre shell aircraft, Pioneer 300, can I use the carbon >fibre belly pan as a ground plane or should I fit a separate one. The carbon fiber is about 1000 times the sheet resistance of aluminum and does not make a good ground plane. You'll need to use "radials" on the comm antennas and either radials or a full disk ground plane on the transponder antenna. VOR and GPS antennas generally do not rely on groundplanes for proper operation. >The same question is asked about the transponder aerial, and how far from >the comms aerial should it be. As far as practical but certainly 36" is plenty. Don't loose any sleep over it if it's only 20". Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:57:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Extra credit quiz From: "Matt Prather" Erich, Your method of protecting the b-lead is correct as well. Minimum rating means that the manufacturer is telling you their product will produce at least a certain number of watts of electrical energy under certain conditions. Under more favorable conditions (cold temperature) the alternator likely is capable of producing more power. If you bought a 560Watt alternator (14V*40A) and it only produced 500Watts (while duplicating the test conditions), you'd be rightly disappointed. Regards, Matt- > > > Bob said "Did you spot any errors in simple ideas...?" > > Okay, now I see what you intended - should have paid more attention to the > thread subject line. > > Perusing the Kit Planes article once more, the information regarding the > correct size fuse or circuit breader for a 60-amp alternator doesnt sound > like what I thought I learned in the 'Connection. The article says use > 70 > or 80 amps to "prevent nuisance tripping because alternator ratings are > minimum ratings." I believe nuisance tripping on my Z-13/8 based system > with 40 amp alternator is handeled not by oversizing a fuse or breaker on > the alternator B-lead, but by using a 5-amp breaker on the alternator > field. My B-lead is protected with a 40 amp ANL current limiter which I > believe is the correct size for my alternator. > > Im also bothered by the "minimum rating" part of the statement, as this > would seem to imply that the alternator could easily produce that current > for long periods of time. We are supposed to be operating at about 75% of > the alternator rating, no? > > Is this more on track, or do I get the booby prize and have to go back and > read 'Connection yet again until it finally sinks in? > > Erich Weaver > This e-mail and any attachments are confidential. If you receive this > message in error or are not the intended recipient, you should not retain, > distribute, disclose or use any of this information and you should destroy > the e-mail and any attachments or copies. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:58:30 AM PST US From: "B Tomm" Subject: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors Bob, Somewhere you had mentioned the use of XLR connectors as good parts to use as an external power port for charging aircraft batteries. These are made for audio applications and commonly found at radio Shack and other sound outlets. I would like to install one or two in my RV7A for maintaining the batteries whenever not flying (electrically dependant engine) to keep the batteries in full charge at all times and to supply power when "hangar flying" the EFIS and GPS as I learn how to use/program them. Now, several questions: Since these are audio products and not necessarily intended for sustained large current carrying capacity, max current are not likely published by the manufacturer. I have no specs here. Do you know the max DC current rating for these devices or have you tested one to destruction? If not, I could send you one for destructive testing. I could too for that matter, but my power supply only goes up to 25 amps at 12V. Maybe, I could use a car battery to supply more current. Any comments here? Would you recommend using the XLR port for ONLY "maintaining" battery levels and fused at some low value (if so what value would you recommend) or could these ports be used to "charge up" a depleted battery without current restrictions? Considering a dual battery system (probably Z-19) I assume two XLR ports would be required? I like these ports as they are small, lightweight, utilize chassis mount format, and have positive locking mechanism. A down side is they do not come with a cover to keep the weather out. I'm considering hiding them behind a small door near the aft mounted batteries. Any comments here? Bevan RV7A Finishing canopy Planning electrical install ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors At 10:56 AM 3/21/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Bob, > >Somewhere you had mentioned the use of XLR connectors as good parts to use >as an external power port for charging aircraft batteries. These are made >for audio applications and commonly found at radio Shack and other sound >outlets. I would like to install one or two in my RV7A for maintaining >the batteries whenever not flying (electrically dependant engine) to keep >the batteries in full charge at all times and to supply power when "hangar >flying" the EFIS and GPS as I learn how to use/program them. Now, several >questions: > >Since these are audio products and not necessarily intended for sustained >large current carrying capacity, max current are not likely published by >the manufacturer. I have no specs here. Do you know the max DC current >rating for these devices or have you tested one to destruction? The BEST application for these connectors is as cockpit power outlets for portable accessories. >If not, I could send you one for destructive testing. I could too for that >matter, but my power supply only goes up to 25 amps at 12V. Maybe, I >could use a car battery to supply more current. Any comments here? > >Would you recommend using the XLR port for ONLY "maintaining" battery >levels and fused at some low value (if so what value would you recommend) >or could these ports be used to "charge up" a depleted battery without >current restrictions? Yes . . . These can be used for a charger connection for a Battery Tender or Battery Minder. Perhaps even a small Schumacher smart charger rated at no more than 5A. >Considering a dual battery system (probably Z-19) I assume two XLR ports >would be required? Yeah . . . but you COULD use a single maintainer to do this through a single connector. The XLR connectors have 3 terminals. Use one for ground. Use the other two as feeders off the battery bus with 5A fuses. Then short these two pins together in the CHARGER side of the connection. This parallels the batteries only during the maintenance mode when the charger is plugged in. >I like these ports as they are small, lightweight, utilize chassis mount >format, and have positive locking mechanism. A down side is they do not >come with a cover to keep the weather out. I'm considering hiding them >behind a small door near the aft mounted batteries. Any comments here? Sounds like a plan. There are some flip-cover versions out there in the wild but they can be mounted in some handy but covered spot like on a bracket you can reach through the oil-check door. The only caveat is to limit total current through this connection to 5A or less. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:08 AM PST US From: "Dennis Jones" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RF antenna connectors Bob I will box it up and send it on its way. Thank You Jonsey -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 7:47 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RF antenna connectors At 11:56 PM 3/19/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > >Bob > >Do you or anyone else out there, have information on installing RF antenna >connectors for a tray mount to RG-400? I know the center conductor is >soldered to the center pin and the shield is soldered to the side >enterence. Does the shield go all the way to the enterence to the main >cup? Does the insullation go flush with enterance to the side entery? And >if so how would one get the sodder into the side enterence? How far does >the shield go inside? Is it flush with the inside of the cup? > >Jonsey If you'll send me your coax fitting I'll install what ever length of RG-400 you wish onto it and use the fitting to craft a comic-book on the subject for posting on my website. I've been wanting to do this article but haven't had access to the fitting. Bob . . . AeroElectric Connection 6936 Bainbridige Road Wichita, KS 67226 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:51 PM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors XLR connectorsBevan Another electrically dependant Subbie guy here. I used a good "cigarrette lighter" socket in my panel, which will have dual function. One outlet, to power any handheld device, and the other as an inlet port to charge my 2 batteries. If you want to consider this solution, I will send you my schematic. Carlos RV-9A ----- Original Message ----- From: B Tomm To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:56 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors Bob, Somewhere you had mentioned the use of XLR connectors as good parts to use as an external power port for charging aircraft batteries. These are made for audio applications and commonly found at radio Shack and other sound outlets. I would like to install one or two in my RV7A for maintaining the batteries whenever not flying (electrically dependant engine) to keep the batteries in full charge at all times and to supply power when "hangar flying" the EFIS and GPS as I learn how to use/program them. Now, several questions: Since these are audio products and not necessarily intended for sustained large current carrying capacity, max current are not likely published by the manufacturer. I have no specs here. Do you know the max DC current rating for these devices or have you tested one to destruction? If not, I could send you one for destructive testing. I could too for that matter, but my power supply only goes up to 25 amps at 12V. Maybe, I could use a car battery to supply more current. Any comments here? Would you recommend using the XLR port for ONLY "maintaining" battery levels and fused at some low value (if so what value would you recommend) or could these ports be used to "charge up" a depleted battery without current restrictions? Considering a dual battery system (probably Z-19) I assume two XLR ports would be required? I like these ports as they are small, lightweight, utilize chassis mount format, and have positive locking mechanism. A down side is they do not come with a cover to keep the weather out. I'm considering hiding them behind a small door near the aft mounted batteries. Any comments here? Bevan RV7A Finishing canopy Planning electrical install ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:23:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas From: I have found very little in the way of GS antennas on the market. I am looking for a solution for a fiberglass airplane. Perhaps one of you have crossed this path and found a good solution? I already have a built in VOR antenna in the wing, two COM dipole antennas attached internally to the fuselage, a transponder antenna through the floor and a beacon copper strip antenna on the floor. I would like to avoid the cat whisker arrangement found throughout GA aircraft. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:42 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Why not use a splitter for your VOR antenna then you don't need a separate antenna or cable Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas I have found very little in the way of GS antennas on the market. I am looking for a solution for a fiberglass airplane. Perhaps one of you have crossed this path and found a good solution? I already have a built in VOR antenna in the wing, two COM dipole antennas attached internally to the fuselage, a transponder antenna through the floor and a beacon copper strip antenna on the floor. I would like to avoid the cat whisker arrangement found throughout GA aircraft. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:46 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors > > > Sounds like a plan. There are some flip-cover versions out > there in the wild but they can be mounted in some handy > but covered spot like on a bracket you can reach through > the oil-check door. The only caveat is to limit total > current through this connection to 5A or less. > > Bob . . . > > > Bob, These connectors are rated to higher current values and work in the cockpit as well as in the wild (the fully sealed units only) See www.powerletproducts.com/products/plugs_sockets.php > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:38 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors I've been preparing to add a ground charging connector myself and did a bit of thinking about this. I'm not interested in a jump-starting connector, which completely changes the picture and opens opportunities. The one that I'm most considering right now is a 7-pin RV trailer connector: http://www.etrailer.com/faq/wiring.aspx The connectors have a receptacle that can be mounted in the baggage bulkhead easy enough (not for outside the airplane), and depending on your current needs (battery tender, or full charger) you can choose from smaller or larger connectors. The 7-pin connector has way more pins than I'd need, but they have a couple of them that use 10ga and 12ga wires as standard. So if you wan to parallel charge your main and aux battery, you could put power in on 2 pins and use the heavy ground for the other. It has the drawback of being non-standard, so you won't be able to use it in the field really easy unless you make and carry some sort of adapter, and it can't be used for starting, but if you're just trying to keep your batteries all charged up in the hanger during extended downtimes, this should work, and the price is good. Still open to other good suggestions for up to 20A, but this one seems to be an easy route right now. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 10:56 AM 3/21/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> Somewhere you had mentioned the use of XLR connectors as good parts to >> use as an external power port for charging aircraft batteries. These >> are made for audio applications and commonly found at radio Shack and >> other sound outlets. I would like to install one or two in my RV7A >> for maintaining the batteries whenever not flying (electrically >> dependant engine) to keep the batteries in full charge at all times >> and to supply power when "hangar flying" the EFIS and GPS as I learn >> how to use/program them. Now, several questions: >> >> Since these are audio products and not necessarily intended for >> sustained large current carrying capacity, max current are not likely >> published by the manufacturer. I have no specs here. Do you know the >> max DC current rating for these devices or have you tested one to >> destruction? > > The BEST application for these connectors is > as cockpit power outlets for portable accessories. > > >> If not, I could send you one for destructive testing. I could too for >> that matter, but my power supply only goes up to 25 amps at 12V. >> Maybe, I could use a car battery to supply more current. Any comments >> here? >> >> Would you recommend using the XLR port for ONLY "maintaining" battery >> levels and fused at some low value (if so what value would you >> recommend) or could these ports be used to "charge up" a depleted >> battery without current restrictions? > > Yes . . . These can be used for a charger connection > for a Battery Tender or Battery Minder. Perhaps even > a small Schumacher smart charger rated at no more than 5A. > > >> Considering a dual battery system (probably Z-19) I assume two XLR >> ports would be required? > > Yeah . . . but you COULD use a single maintainer to do this > through a single connector. The XLR connectors have 3 terminals. > Use one for ground. Use the other two as feeders off the battery > bus with 5A fuses. Then short these two pins together in the > CHARGER side of the connection. This parallels the batteries > only during the maintenance mode when the charger is plugged in. > > >> I like these ports as they are small, lightweight, utilize chassis >> mount format, and have positive locking mechanism. A down side is >> they do not come with a cover to keep the weather out. I'm >> considering hiding them behind a small door near the aft mounted >> batteries. Any comments here? > > Sounds like a plan. There are some flip-cover versions out > there in the wild but they can be mounted in some handy > but covered spot like on a bracket you can reach through > the oil-check door. The only caveat is to limit total > current through this connection to 5A or less. > > Bob . . . > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:28 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas From: Frank, I thought about doing just that, however I only have one VOR antenna and two NAV radios. I have seen a splitter which will allow for both but I am hesitant to use it for fear of signal degradation. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:50 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas --> (Corvallis)" Why not use a splitter for your VOR antenna then you don't need a separate antenna or cable Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas I have found very little in the way of GS antennas on the market. I am looking for a solution for a fiberglass airplane. Perhaps one of you have crossed this path and found a good solution? I already have a built in VOR antenna in the wing, two COM dipole antennas attached internally to the fuselage, a transponder antenna through the floor and a beacon copper strip antenna on the floor. I would like to avoid the cat whisker arrangement found throughout GA aircraft. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:32 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas Good Evening longg, I think you will find that at least ninety percent of the certified airplanes that have had a radio installation in the last twenty years will use one set of blades or a V antenna to feed two nav radios and two Glide Slope receivers. As 'Lectric Bob has noted, at the ranges we use, a wet string would probably be adequate. A set of blades is elegant and work very well, but even the cheapest V antenna when spilt with a four way splitter will give every bit of signal any modern receiver can use. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 3/21/2007 4:07:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, longg@pjm.com writes: Frank, I thought about doing just that, however I only have one VOR antenna and two NAV radios. I have seen a splitter which will allow for both but I am hesitant to use it for fear of signal degradation. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I have an Archer wingtip VOR antenna with a splitter and it works very well..Could you use a second wingtip job and split that signal instead, i.e two antennas and two splitters? I'm not sure how the signal would degrade if you used a single antenna to two radios? Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:00 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas Frank, I thought about doing just that, however I only have one VOR antenna and two NAV radios. I have seen a splitter which will allow for both but I am hesitant to use it for fear of signal degradation. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:50 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas --> (Corvallis)" Why not use a splitter for your VOR antenna then you don't need a separate antenna or cable Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of longg@pjm.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:23 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Glideslope Antennas I have found very little in the way of GS antennas on the market. I am looking for a solution for a fiberglass airplane. Perhaps one of you have crossed this path and found a good solution? I already have a built in VOR antenna in the wing, two COM dipole antennas attached internally to the fuselage, a transponder antenna through the floor and a beacon copper strip antenna on the floor. I would like to avoid the cat whisker arrangement found throughout GA aircraft. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:40 PM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors So why not just go with a Piper style ground power. It's pretty similar to a trailer plug and you can use it for jump starting and have a chance of getting a FBO GPU that can plug in. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/piperplugsock.php Michael Sausen -10 #352 Limbo -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:38 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors I've been preparing to add a ground charging connector myself and did a bit of thinking about this. I'm not interested in a jump-starting connector, which completely changes the picture and opens opportunities. The one that I'm most considering right now is a 7-pin RV trailer connector: http://www.etrailer.com/faq/wiring.aspx The connectors have a receptacle that can be mounted in the baggage bulkhead easy enough (not for outside the airplane), and depending on your current needs (battery tender, or full charger) you can choose from smaller or larger connectors. The 7-pin connector has way more pins than I'd need, but they have a couple of them that use 10ga and 12ga wires as standard. So if you wan to parallel charge your main and aux battery, you could put power in on 2 pins and use the heavy ground for the other. It has the drawback of being non-standard, so you won't be able to use it in the field really easy unless you make and carry some sort of adapter, and it can't be used for starting, but if you're just trying to keep your batteries all charged up in the hanger during extended downtimes, this should work, and the price is good. Still open to other good suggestions for up to 20A, but this one seems to be an easy route right now. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > At 10:56 AM 3/21/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> Somewhere you had mentioned the use of XLR connectors as good parts to >> use as an external power port for charging aircraft batteries. These >> are made for audio applications and commonly found at radio Shack and >> other sound outlets. I would like to install one or two in my RV7A >> for maintaining the batteries whenever not flying (electrically >> dependant engine) to keep the batteries in full charge at all times >> and to supply power when "hangar flying" the EFIS and GPS as I learn >> how to use/program them. Now, several questions: >> >> Since these are audio products and not necessarily intended for >> sustained large current carrying capacity, max current are not likely >> published by the manufacturer. I have no specs here. Do you know the >> max DC current rating for these devices or have you tested one to >> destruction? > > The BEST application for these connectors is > as cockpit power outlets for portable accessories. > > >> If not, I could send you one for destructive testing. I could too for >> that matter, but my power supply only goes up to 25 amps at 12V. >> Maybe, I could use a car battery to supply more current. Any comments >> here? >> >> Would you recommend using the XLR port for ONLY "maintaining" battery >> levels and fused at some low value (if so what value would you >> recommend) or could these ports be used to "charge up" a depleted >> battery without current restrictions? > > Yes . . . These can be used for a charger connection > for a Battery Tender or Battery Minder. Perhaps even > a small Schumacher smart charger rated at no more than 5A. > > >> Considering a dual battery system (probably Z-19) I assume two XLR >> ports would be required? > > Yeah . . . but you COULD use a single maintainer to do this > through a single connector. The XLR connectors have 3 terminals. > Use one for ground. Use the other two as feeders off the battery > bus with 5A fuses. Then short these two pins together in the > CHARGER side of the connection. This parallels the batteries > only during the maintenance mode when the charger is plugged in. > > >> I like these ports as they are small, lightweight, utilize chassis >> mount format, and have positive locking mechanism. A down side is >> they do not come with a cover to keep the weather out. I'm >> considering hiding them behind a small door near the aft mounted >> batteries. Any comments here? > > Sounds like a plan. There are some flip-cover versions out > there in the wild but they can be mounted in some handy > but covered spot like on a bracket you can reach through > the oil-check door. The only caveat is to limit total > current through this connection to 5A or less. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:39 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors A couple reasons: 1, costs more. 2, can't charge both my aux and main batteries without tying them together or using huge diodes, 3, I can buy this one locally for a good price, 4,the wires are protected by the backshell, so there's less exposed terminals to worry about. It's pretty light, too. I had considered the piper and normal type, but as I mentioned, I'm not at all looking for a jump start connector and I don't want to use huge fat wires, and I do want to charge both batteries. Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying do not archive RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > > So why not just go with a Piper style ground power. It's pretty similar to a trailer plug and you can use it for jump starting and have a chance of getting a FBO GPU that can plug in. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/piperplugsock.php > > Michael Sausen > -10 #352 Limbo > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson > Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 2:38 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors > > > I've been preparing to add a ground charging connector myself > and did a bit of thinking about this. I'm not interested in > a jump-starting connector, which completely changes the > picture and opens opportunities. > > The one that I'm most considering right now is a 7-pin RV > trailer connector: > http://www.etrailer.com/faq/wiring.aspx > > The connectors have a receptacle that can be mounted in the > baggage bulkhead easy enough (not for outside the airplane), > and depending on your current needs (battery tender, or > full charger) you can choose from smaller or larger connectors. > > The 7-pin connector has way more pins than I'd need, but they > have a couple of them that use 10ga and 12ga wires as standard. > So if you wan to parallel charge your main and aux battery, > you could put power in on 2 pins and use the heavy ground for > the other. > > It has the drawback of being non-standard, so you won't be > able to use it in the field really easy unless you make > and carry some sort of adapter, and it can't be used for > starting, but if you're just trying to keep your batteries > all charged up in the hanger during extended downtimes, > this should work, and the price is good. Still open > to other good suggestions for up to 20A, but this one > seems to be an easy route right now. > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive > > > Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> >> At 10:56 AM 3/21/2007 -0700, you wrote: >> >>> Bob, >>> >>> Somewhere you had mentioned the use of XLR connectors as good parts to >>> use as an external power port for charging aircraft batteries. These >>> are made for audio applications and commonly found at radio Shack and >>> other sound outlets. I would like to install one or two in my RV7A >>> for maintaining the batteries whenever not flying (electrically >>> dependant engine) to keep the batteries in full charge at all times >>> and to supply power when "hangar flying" the EFIS and GPS as I learn >>> how to use/program them. Now, several questions: >>> >>> Since these are audio products and not necessarily intended for >>> sustained large current carrying capacity, max current are not likely >>> published by the manufacturer. I have no specs here. Do you know the >>> max DC current rating for these devices or have you tested one to >>> destruction? >> The BEST application for these connectors is >> as cockpit power outlets for portable accessories. >> >> >>> If not, I could send you one for destructive testing. I could too for >>> that matter, but my power supply only goes up to 25 amps at 12V. >>> Maybe, I could use a car battery to supply more current. Any comments >>> here? >>> >>> Would you recommend using the XLR port for ONLY "maintaining" battery >>> levels and fused at some low value (if so what value would you >>> recommend) or could these ports be used to "charge up" a depleted >>> battery without current restrictions? >> Yes . . . These can be used for a charger connection >> for a Battery Tender or Battery Minder. Perhaps even >> a small Schumacher smart charger rated at no more than 5A. >> >> >>> Considering a dual battery system (probably Z-19) I assume two XLR >>> ports would be required? >> Yeah . . . but you COULD use a single maintainer to do this >> through a single connector. The XLR connectors have 3 terminals. >> Use one for ground. Use the other two as feeders off the battery >> bus with 5A fuses. Then short these two pins together in the >> CHARGER side of the connection. This parallels the batteries >> only during the maintenance mode when the charger is plugged in. >> >> >>> I like these ports as they are small, lightweight, utilize chassis >>> mount format, and have positive locking mechanism. A down side is >>> they do not come with a cover to keep the weather out. I'm >>> considering hiding them behind a small door near the aft mounted >>> batteries. Any comments here? >> Sounds like a plan. There are some flip-cover versions out >> there in the wild but they can be mounted in some handy >> but covered spot like on a bracket you can reach through >> the oil-check door. The only caveat is to limit total >> current through this connection to 5A or less. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:29 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: XLR connectors Tim Olson wrote: > > A couple reasons: 1, costs more. 2, can't charge both my aux and > main batteries without tying them together or using huge diodes, > 3, I can buy this one locally for a good price, 4,the wires are > protected by the backshell, so there's less exposed terminals to > worry about. It's pretty light, too. I had considered the > piper and normal type, but as I mentioned, I'm not at all > looking for a jump start connector and I don't want to use > huge fat wires, and I do want to charge both batteries. > > > Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying > do not archive snipped The XLR connectors are great; very rugged & reliable. You might alienate yourself from the crimp camp, though. :-) You might want to rethink the locking feature. What happens when you kick the wire? If I were using it strictly as an aux power jack, I'd file off the lock tang to minimize damage to the wire (& possibly myself) if I trip on it. If you're building an RV with the batteries on the firewall, I'd at least take a look through the oil filler door & see if you can reach the batteries' positive terminals with charger clamps. Any engine part will work for the ground. I found that I can reach the positive terminal with the clamp that comes on a typical small battery charger. No extra wire, no connector, no extra weight, no extra things to break. 'Simplicate & add lightness.' One of my favorite aviation quotes. (Wish I could remember who said it first.) Charlie ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Extra credit quiz At 02:18 AM 3/21/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Bob said "Did you spot any errors in simple ideas...?" > >Okay, now I see what you intended - should have paid more attention to the >thread subject line. > >Perusing the Kit Planes article once more, the information regarding the >correct size fuse or circuit breader for a 60-amp alternator doesnt sound >like what I thought I learned in the 'Connection. The article says >use 70 or 80 amps to "prevent nuisance tripping because alternator >ratings are minimum ratings." I believe nuisance tripping on my Z-13/8 >based system with 40 amp alternator is handeled not by oversizing a fuse >or breaker on the alternator B-lead, but by using a 5-amp breaker on the >alternator field. My B-lead is protected with a 40 amp ANL current >limiter which I believe is the correct size for my alternator. There's breakers, fuses and THEN there are current limiters. The ANL's trip characteristics are shown in . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANL_Specs.pdf There's no listing for the ANL40 but note that the ANL35 goes asymptotic to never-trips at about 90 amps! The ANL40 will be higher yet. Obviously, these critters are NOT intended to protect for wire overheat but HARD faults. You could use an ANL40 on a 60A alternator without nuisance tripping. You COULD go for an ANN40. See . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/ANN_Specs.pdf Here the device goes asymptotic to never-trips at 50A. An ANN40 would be solid at about 56A . . . still really good headroom for a 40A alternator. Let's consider a MAX40 for your 40A alternator. See . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Fuses_and_Current_Limiters/Bussman/MAXI_Specs.pdf This device doesn't go asymptotic at under 100 seconds but still takes 60A to open it in about two minutes. But your 40A alternator will put out 50A or so when it's cold. Hmmmm . . . starting to push the limits. Lets look at a 40A breaker like . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Breakers/Potter_Brumfield/W2331_DS.pdf Note in the calibration data we read: "Will carry 100% of rating but may trip between 101% and 134% of rating. Must trip within one hour at 135%." Things change pretty quickly in the range of 135 to 200% and drop to seconds of trip time. These are but a few examples of how much variability you can find in characteristics of the various circuit protection products when compared with their RATINGS. My writings have suggested the fast devices like fuses and breakers have healthy margins over the ratings of the alternator. Again, b-lead protection is for taming HARD faults (read many hundreds of amps) and not enduring low level overloads. Bottom line is that you probably can't have b-lead protection that is TOO big when selecting breakers and/or fuses. Anywhere from 1.5 to 3x the alternator rating would do the hard fault protection job and be free of nuisance tripping. On the other hand, current limiters are offered with those headrooms already built in. They're much more robust with respect to ratings than their faster cousins. >Im also bothered by the "minimum rating" part of the statement, as this >would seem to imply that the alternator could easily produce that current >for long periods of time. We are supposed to be operating at about 75% of >the alternator rating, no? You want to plan no more than 75% of rating for continuous loads by your ship's equipment as defined by the various operating conditions in your load analysis. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Revised%20%20load_analysis.xls or if you want to do one by hand see: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Load_Analysis/Blank_Form.pdf The idea behind alternator de-rating is to leave some stuff left over for RECHARGING the BATTERY. You don't want to launch in some condition that needs 100% of alternator output and leave your battery unattended. >Is this more on track, or do I get the booby prize and have to go back and >read 'Connection yet again until it finally sinks in? Hmmmm . . . here's a chance to redeem yourself. How accurate was he with respect to quotation of mile stones in voltage readings? Actually, his piece was pretty accurate for someone who is attempting a good critique of an activity that was not his particular field of experience. We romp along pretty fast in those seminars and we know it's tough to be 100% retentive in the best of circumstances. I'm working on the power point presentation for a seminar next Saturday in North Carolina. My seminar format is in transition in preparation for offing audio/slide and ultimately video versions off the website. This will allow us to reach many more individuals than those opportunities offered at 6-8 seminars a year. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:59 PM PST US From: "Stephen Reynolds" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD8 Connection queries I have a SD8 standby alternator on my RV7 & am considering the various options for connecting it into the aircraft wiring. I have been looking at Bobs Z-8 diagram which uses an essential bus & cross tie. I would rather not have the essential bus & just have a way of connecting the both the SD8 & the battery into the main bus should the battery contactor fail as I see this as a single point of failure. Has anyone done something similar or is there another wiring diagram out there that shows another way of doing this. Thanks in advance Stephen RV7 N570Z Finish ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:24:46 PM PST US From: "John Burnaby" Subject: AeroElectric-List: What did I do wrong? I am installing a flexible USB 5v, 50ma LED used on computers for cockpit/map light. To figure out which contacts light the LED, I soldered a 5.1v , 1 watt, Zener diode on to the positive lead of my power supply and went probing the contacts. The two outside contacts were the ones powering the LED. But the LED promptly fried. Obviously there's more to this than I thought. What do I need to do to here to keep my LED lights from burning up? 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