Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:14 AM - Re: Zener Diodes (Christopher Stone)
2. 06:49 AM - Re: Zener Diodes (Sam Marlow)
3. 07:25 AM - Re: 12V batteries in series (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:25 AM - VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? (Scott Derrick)
5. 10:31 AM - Re: 12V batteries in series (rtitsworth)
6. 03:03 PM - Re: Avionics Mounting (John Morgensen)
7. 04:10 PM - Re: 12V batteries in series (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:33 PM - AC 43.13 voltage drop.... (Jim Baker)
9. 08:15 PM - Re: AC 43.13 voltage drop.... (Jim Baker)
10. 09:15 PM - Re: 12V batteries in series - a few more followup questions (rtitsworth)
11. 09:25 PM - Re: Rear Mounted Batteries - more questions (RV_10)
12. 09:26 PM - Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? (Joe Garner)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Zener Diodes |
Installed the Matronics Govenor in our first RV-8. Works great.
http://www.matronics.com/governor/
Don't think you will get there with a zener. Even a one watt will only pass 70
mA @ 14v. I think the trim servos can draw an amp when stalled.
Chris Stone
RV-8 x2
-----Original Message-----
>From: Sam Marlow <sam@fr8dog.net>
>Sent: Apr 3, 2007 6:33 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zener Diodes
>
>I'm looking to slow down my trim servo for cruise, does anyone have a
>source for 1N5323 zener diodes, or a better idea?
>Thanks,
>Sam Marlow
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Zener Diodes |
Thanks Chris.
do not archive.
Christopher Stone wrote:
>
> Installed the Matronics Govenor in our first RV-8. Works great.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/governor/
>
> Don't think you will get there with a zener. Even a one watt will only pass
70 mA @ 14v. I think the trim servos can draw an amp when stalled.
>
> Chris Stone
> RV-8 x2
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Sam Marlow <sam@fr8dog.net>
>> Sent: Apr 3, 2007 6:33 AM
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Zener Diodes
>>
>> I'm looking to slow down my trim servo for cruise, does anyone have a
>> source for 1N5323 zener diodes, or a better idea?
>> Thanks,
>> Sam Marlow
>>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 12V batteries in series |
At 11:09 PM 4/3/2007 -0400, you wrote:
><rtitsworth@mindspring.com>
>
>Bob, etal
>
>I'm wiring two 12v batteries in series (to make a 24 volt battery). The
>batteries I'm using (Panasonic) have threaded posts as terminals. The
>(+)and (-) terminals are symmetric, so placing the batteries back-to-back,
>places the intermediate terminals close to each other (~1.5" apart). The
>batteries will be physically clamped together in the mount and are in the
>tail (relatively low vibration).
But not zero vibration. Battery terminals are designed
with limited structural integrity to mount conductors . .
the lighter and more flexible the better. With lead posted
batteries, there's real risk of stress cracks taking the
post of entirely. Batteries with molded in threads are
at risk for loosing the hermetic seal around the posts.
>Question: How to best "wire" the intermediate (+) and (-) terminals
>together?
>
>1. I can make short leads from welding cable (like the other main battery
>connections). But, this uses much more material than necessary and creates
>a space/routing problem in the battery mount/box.
A 3" piece of 4AWG with a couple of soldered or crimped terminals
represents a space problem?
>2. I can make a short connection strap from some bar stock (assume approx 1"
>x 2.5" x 1/8" or 3/16" thick) with two holes to mate with the threaded
>terminal posts. What to make the strap from???
Be wary of connections having considerable stiffness at
right angles to the terminal. 0.064 sheet brass from a hobby
shop is thick enough. These displays from K-S Engineering
are found in many hobby, craft and hardware stores. They
have small pieces of sheet brass.
http://tinyurl.com/286hsn
http://tinyurl.com/2638yx
Their p/n 248 is an .064 x 1 brass strip that is highly
suited to jumpers between robust studs like the pictures
shown here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect
But to avoid having the sheet stiffness bear against the
battery terminal, you'd want to make an "omega shaped"
jumper that stands up 1/2 to 1" above the surface so that
motion between the two terminals does not induce stress
due to the relative stiffness of the jumper.
>Copper - good conductivity but eventually corrodes
>Aluminum - lighter, but corrosion (al oxide) in not very conductive
>Steel - ??? Most vibration resistant?
It's not the jumper that's at risk . . . but the
battery terminals. Conductivity for so short a connection
is not a serious issue but ability of the material to
"give" under pressure of the threaded fasteners is what
works toward a gas-tight joint. When the joint is good,
the plating becomes a minor concern for longevity. If
you used a 4AWG jumper and tin plated copper terminals,
you will have selected a combination of materials designed
and proven to meet design goals for connective integrity.
If these are RG batteries, why a battery box? Adding an
enclosure around an RG battery has offers no mechanical
or operational advantages over simply strapping open
batteries into a tray that captures the footprint.
>What about plating any of the above? i.e. Copper with Tin or Nickel
>plating. (I have access to a professional plating shop).
Sound's like a good way to spend a lot of $time$ to
work around a $2 jumper that you can build up in about
ten minutes with a small torch and some house wire for
"wedges" . . . see:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
A 3-4" piece of welding cable would be fine for
the conductor. I need to update this article. Bernzomatic
has a really nice ST-100T, $10 butane torch
offered at places like Home Depot. I demonstrate
these and give them away at my weekend seminars. VERY
nicely built and the price is right. See:
http://tinyurl.com/37qyxf
http://tinyurl.com/3a933o
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
Hi,
I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
either.
Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
august and have given up waiting.
Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
unit,
I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
disconnected.
thanks,
Scott
--
-
Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither
security nor liberty.
Benjamin Franklin
Message 5
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| Subject: | 12V batteries in series |
BobN,
Thanks for the reply. Some follow-up comments/questions...
I'm not against #4AWG and crimped/soldered ends, but when placed
face-to-face, the battery terminals are only 1.5" apart. The top terminals
are in a recessed area (below the top battery surface) and thus really only
accessible from the sides (see attached photos.)
The short side of the batteries are nearly flush with a bulkhead (~.25"
gap), so the terminals are then really only accessible from the long side.
If I tried to make a #4 AWG wire to connect the face-to-face pair, them the
crimped/soldered ends would been less than 1/4" apart (essential the ends
would just be soldered together, stiff).
I could make a vertical "omega" strap, but if the paired batteries are
secured together, I'm not sure I see how the two posts vibrate relative to
each other? Rather, I was thinking that the terminals are only exposed to
the load(s) due to attempting to accelerate (vibrate) anything connected to
them. The direct connecting strap would be relatively light and so little
load would be imposed to the terminals. Furthermore, I'm thinking that
connecting something solid to both terminals cuts the force imparted to each
in half. ???
The K&S suggestion is helpful. I was thinking that I needed something
thicker (i.e. 1/8")
As an alternative, I could arrange the batteries back-to-back, but then the
connecting wire would need to run around the outside perimeter (> 18").
Perhaps that is best???
Additional thoughts/comments???
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 12V batteries in series
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:09 PM 4/3/2007 -0400, you wrote:
><rtitsworth@mindspring.com>
>
>Bob, etal
>
>I'm wiring two 12v batteries in series (to make a 24 volt battery). The
>batteries I'm using (Panasonic) have threaded posts as terminals. The
>(+)and (-) terminals are symmetric, so placing the batteries face-to-face,
>places the intermediate terminals close to each other (~1.5" apart). The
>batteries will be physically clamped together in the mount and are in the
>tail (relatively low vibration).
But not zero vibration. Battery terminals are designed
with limited structural integrity to mount conductors . .
the lighter and more flexible the better. With lead posted
batteries, there's real risk of stress cracks taking the
post of entirely. Batteries with molded in threads are
at risk for loosing the hermetic seal around the posts.
>Question: How to best "wire" the intermediate (+) and (-) terminals
>together?
>
>1. I can make short leads from welding cable (like the other main battery
>connections). But, this uses much more material than necessary and creates
>a space/routing problem in the battery mount/box.
A 3" piece of 4AWG with a couple of soldered or crimped terminals
represents a space problem?
>2. I can make a short connection strap from some bar stock (assume approx
1"
>x 2.5" x 1/8" or 3/16" thick) with two holes to mate with the threaded
>terminal posts. What to make the strap from???
Be wary of connections having considerable stiffness at
right angles to the terminal. 0.064 sheet brass from a hobby
shop is thick enough. These displays from K-S Engineering
are found in many hobby, craft and hardware stores. They
have small pieces of sheet brass.
http://tinyurl.com/286hsn
http://tinyurl.com/2638yx
Their p/n 248 is an .064 x 1 brass strip that is highly
suited to jumpers between robust studs like the pictures
shown here:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/Contactor_Interconnect
But to avoid having the sheet stiffness bear against the
battery terminal, you'd want to make an "omega shaped"
jumper that stands up 1/2 to 1" above the surface so that
motion between the two terminals does not induce stress
due to the relative stiffness of the jumper.
>Copper - good conductivity but eventually corrodes
>Aluminum - lighter, but corrosion (al oxide) in not very conductive
>Steel - ??? Most vibration resistant?
It's not the jumper that's at risk . . . but the
battery terminals. Conductivity for so short a connection
is not a serious issue but ability of the material to
"give" under pressure of the threaded fasteners is what
works toward a gas-tight joint. When the joint is good,
the plating becomes a minor concern for longevity. If
you used a 4AWG jumper and tin plated copper terminals,
you will have selected a combination of materials designed
and proven to meet design goals for connective integrity.
If these are RG batteries, why a battery box? Adding an
enclosure around an RG battery has offers no mechanical
or operational advantages over simply strapping open
batteries into a tray that captures the footprint.
>What about plating any of the above? i.e. Copper with Tin or Nickel
>plating. (I have access to a professional plating shop).
Sound's like a good way to spend a lot of $time$ to
work around a $2 jumper that you can build up in about
ten minutes with a small torch and some house wire for
"wedges" . . . see:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf
A 3-4" piece of welding cable would be fine for
the conductor. I need to update this article. Bernzomatic
has a really nice ST-100T, $10 butane torch
offered at places like Home Depot. I demonstrate
these and give them away at my weekend seminars. VERY
nicely built and the price is right. See:
http://tinyurl.com/37qyxf
http://tinyurl.com/3a933o
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Avionics Mounting |
Dan, can you provide more info on your rack design using these parts?
The 'finds' on this list are amazing!
John Morgensen
D Fritz wrote:
> I purchased some extruded bars and associated hardware that seems to
> work as well as RadioRax for much less. Follow this link for the
> catalog. I haven't flown yet, but mechanically these look like they'll
> work quite well, the bars are made so that once you tighten down the
> mounting screws the aluminum is preloaded and therefore resistant to
> loosening from vibration. Try this link:
>
> http://www.8020.net/PDF/Fractional%20Section%201.pdf
>
> Dan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 >
> (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=49980/*http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 >
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 7
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| Subject: | 12V batteries in series |
>
>
>I could make a vertical "omega" strap, but if the paired batteries are
>secured together, I'm not sure I see how the two posts vibrate relative to
>each other? Rather, I was thinking that the terminals are only exposed to
>the load(s) due to attempting to accelerate (vibrate) anything connected
>to them. The direct connecting strap would be relatively light and so
>little load would be imposed to the terminals. Furthermore, I m thinking
>that connecting something solid to both terminals cuts the force imparted
>to each in half. ???
When you have two chunks of lead like these
you only 'think' you have them strapped together.
It's not the weight of the strap but the weights
of the two batteries and the inability to make them
absolutely immobile to each other for all modes of
vibration.
>
>
>The K&S suggestion is helpful. I was thinking that I needed something
>thicker (i.e. 1/8")
No, nothing nearly that thick. All I can do is
give you best practices based on having torn a lot
of stuff up in qualification testing that I thought
was pretty robust. Give it a try. What you've proposed
will probably be okay.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | AC 43.13 voltage drop.... |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
Just looking at the following (and being somewhat electron
challenged)....
Para 11-66
b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage
drop in the main power wires from the generation
source or the battery to the bus should not
exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when
the generator is carrying rated current or the
battery is being discharged at the 5-minute
rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines
the maximum acceptable voltage drop in
the load circuits between the bus and the utilization
equipment ground.
Nominal system voltage Allowable voltage Intermittent
drop continuous operation
operation
14 0.5 1
28 1 2
__________________________________________________
Since there isn't any generally published 5 minute discharge rate
for most batteries, how would one handle this? I take this as
representing a fully loaded system. Is this irrespective of the
circuit protection methodology?
Thanks....
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: AC 43.13 voltage drop.... |
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (4.41)
Dang....that's from AC 43-13.......I hate gettin' old....
>
> Just looking at the following (and being somewhat electron
> challenged)....
>
> Para 11-66
>
> b. Voltage Drop in Wires. The voltage
> drop in the main power wires from the generation
> source or the battery to the bus should not
> exceed 2 percent of the regulated voltage when
> the generator is carrying rated current or the
> battery is being discharged at the 5-minute
> rate. The tabulation shown in table 11-6 defines
> the maximum acceptable voltage drop in
> the load circuits between the bus and the utilization
> equipment ground.
>
>
> Nominal system voltage Allowable voltage Intermittent
> drop continuous operation
> operation
> 14 0.5 1
> 28 1 2
> __________________________________________________
>
> Since there isn't any generally published 5 minute discharge rate
> for most batteries, how would one handle this? I take this as
> representing a fully loaded system. Is this irrespective of the
> circuit protection methodology?
>
> Thanks....
>
>
> Jim Baker
> 580.788.2779
> Elmore City, OK
>
>
>
>
>
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
Elmore City, OK
Message 10
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| Subject: | 12V batteries in series - a few more followup questions |
BobN,
Thanks much (as usual)!!! I'm going to try the omega bend connector, it
should be pretty simple with the thin material - probably better than the
straight/flat connector, perhaps not as robust as the 4AWG cable - sort of a
compromise in my mind.
Follow-up question#1: Let's say sometime in the future, one of the
terminals or the omega connector strap comes loose or breaks off in flight.
How would I know (during the flight)? My ignorant guesses below.
a) The ammeter (shunt on the battery lead) would move from perhaps a slight
charging state to zero, but that might not be noticeable.
b) I understand the alternator would not be happy without the battery. But,
how would I know? Voltage fluctuations? Potential overvoltage (crowbar)
scenario?
c) Other???
Follow-up question #2: What type of nut should I use on the threaded
battery terminal? I'm assuming just a plain (AN345) nut (Cad plated,
Stainless, other)? However, it would be nice to safety it somehow (perhaps
overkill). Would it make sense to use two nuts (a jam nut)? Would it make
sense to use a nylon lock nut as the 2nd jam nut? Would it make most sense
to just use one all metal stop nut (AN363)
Follow-up question #3: Assuming a ground stud through the firewall, what
should the stud be made of (steel) (zink plated) (other)? What type of
nut(s) should I use on it (same as the battery terminal)? What type of nut
should I use on the engine side of the engine ground braid?
Rick
Message 11
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| Subject: | Rear Mounted Batteries - more questions |
Thanks Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2007 12:34 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Rear Mounted Batteries - more questions
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:12 AM 4/1/2007 +1000, you wrote:
>Hello 'Lectric Bob,
>
>Thank you for all the fantastic effort you put into this group. It is
>extremely helpful to those of us with zero earlier experience in this area.
>
>I have read the Connection a couple of times and I have been pondering the
>whole issue of batteries and locations and fat wires etc.
>
>Attached is a schematic of a Z-14, architecture for rear batteries. This is
>not your current Z-14, and I don't know now where I got this from, but it
>very specifically states that the Aft Ground Buss is NOT Grounded to the
>airframe.
>
>My wife and I are building an RV-10. We are planning an all electric IFR
>panel and a two PC625 battery, two alternator electrical system. Would you
>please make your comments specific to this setup?
>
>Am I correct in assuming that there is an ideal setup for a two rear
>battery, two alternator system, which is the Z-14 attached, and then there
>is a more practical setup, which has the batteries grounded at the rear. Is
>this correct?
Essentially yes. If one were building a composite aircraft, then a
fat feeder for battery(-) leads to the firewall is REQUIRED. But in
a metal airplane, one has the option of crafting a pristine system
depicted in the sketch -or- taking advantage of the airframe as
a power return for devices that are NOT potential victims to ground
loop conducted noises.
>Would you please comment on the relative merits of these two different
>approaches, and especially comment on any downside of both approaches?
>
>If you ground both rear batteries as suggested down the back to the
>airframe, do you then set up your avionics ground bus at the panel simply
by
>connecting it to the firewall Ground? Are there any issues or concerns with
>doing this?
Nope. Your engine straps to the bolt at this ground also.
> >From a purely electrical perspective, would it be preferable in our
>situation (ignoring weight and balance questions for the moment) to have
>either battery situated up the front somewhere? If yes, which would be
>preferable to put up the front, and why?
Batteries are the ultimate mitigator of CG problems. From
the electrical perspective, we'd like to have all the starters,
alternators and batteries be grouped together in something under
2 cubic feet of common volume. As a practical matter, batteries
are placed where they need to go to accommodate other airframe design
goals. As a major component of weight and volume, batteries are
among the very few items where performance is not seriously
compromised by moving them around.
>I also have a couple of other questions on the attached Figure Z-14. Does
>the single ground lead from both batteries to the front provide a single
>source of total failure? And lastly, why have you specified the
copper/brass
>strap on the power side of the main battery in the attached Z-14?
The crossfeed contactor, starter contactor and current limiter
block can be mounted within inches of each other and "wired" with
flat strap like the pictures found in this directory . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Wiring_Technique/
The short straps are much easier to fabricate and install than
very short hunks of fat wire with terminals.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: VMS capacitance fuel probes used with Dynon EMS? |
You can get the Princeton converter from Grand Rapids. Also I think
Blue Mt. makes one if you want to deal with them...
Several articles on the Internet for roll your own converters if you search.
Im putting in a GRT EIS in place of an EPI800 which uses those same probes.
HTH, Joe
Scott Derrick wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have Vision Microsystems capacitance fuel probes installed in my
> Velocity. I would like to use them with Dynon's EMS which requires a
> 0-5 volt output from the fuel probes. I don't know if the Vision probes
> output frequency, capacitance or voltage. Dynon didn't seem to know
> either.
> Vision is going through extreme changes since bought by JPI, tech
> support is nil, I've been waiting for a new Vision VM1000C since last
> august and have given up waiting.
>
> Any help in using these VMS fuel probes with the Dynon unit would be
> greatly appreciated. The probes worked fine for 450 hours with a VM1000
> unit,
>
> I have heard that Princeton Electronics made capacitance fuel probe
> converters but teh only number I have for them( 616-281-5193) is
> disconnected.
>
> thanks,
>
> Scott
>
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