Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:55 AM - Re: Final schematic (Mike Gregory)
2. 05:21 AM - Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:24 AM - Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:10 AM - Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights (Ken)
5. 08:53 AM - Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights (Glaeser, Dennis A)
6. 09:07 AM - Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc (Ron Quillin)
7. 10:24 AM - Re: Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 11:30 AM - Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:39 AM - Re: Final schematic (Gaye and Vaughn)
10. 12:31 PM - Re: Final schematic (Gaye and Vaughn)
11. 03:31 PM - blinking LED (rd2@evenlink.com)
12. 04:41 PM - Re: Final schematic (Mike Gregory)
13. 07:05 PM - Re: blinking LED (Bret Smith)
14. 07:29 PM - Re: blinking LED (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 10:00 PM - Re: Starter contactor location (Leo Holler)
Message 1
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Vaughn,
Because you are running a Rotax 914, which has no mechanical fuel pump, you
must have at least one of your two electric pumps working to avoid a silent
experience in flight that would probably upset Gaye's delicate feelings as
well as yours. I therefore consider it unwise to feed both pumps from your
battery bus because a single failure (e.g. of the 12 awg feed to that bus)
could render both pumps inoperative. I suggest one pump should be fed from
a supply that can receive power from either alternator, such as the
endurance bus.
You may wish to consider your overvoltage protection relay for the Rotax
alternator circuit operating to open the AC voltage input that goes to the
regulator G terminals (i.e. break into one of the yellow leads) as suggested
in the Z 16 schematic. Bob now recommends this in preference to interrupting
the output of the regulator.
Best regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: 08 April 2007 17:21
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of switches,
but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All subscribers feel
free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
At 10:42 PM 4/9/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>>I think the price will be something on the order of $55
>> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
>> pot.
>>
>> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as an
>option?
>
>Ron Q.
>
>
>--
>10:59 PM
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
At 10:42 PM 4/9/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>>I think the price will be something on the order of $55
>> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
>> pot.
>>
>> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>
>Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as an
>option?
>
>Ron Q.
Yeah, that can be done but given that 5v lighting (as
is most incandescent panel lighting) is going the way
of the buggy whip, there's virtually no way I would
recover the cost of development. I don't expect to sell
more than a half dozen of the 9033-1 as a lighting dimmer.
The AEC9033-2 will be a power supply to eliminate batteries
in a variety of hand-held devices that run from 2 or 3
cells. I might sell a few more of those.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
Why 5 volts? Sure, in theory the filaments are thicker and more
reliable in high vibration situations but is it meaningful for 12 volt
vehicles. Apparently it is already increasing complexity and costs.
How many bulbs here? Would it make sense to put a couple of strings of 3
in series for 14.4 volts operation? Can they be replaced with 12 volt
bulbs? LED's?
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 10:42 PM 4/9/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> <rjquillin@gmail.com>
>>
>> At 22:40 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>>
>>> I think the price will be something on the order of $55
>>> and will include the externally mounted dimmer control
>>> pot.
>>>
>>> The part number will be AEC9033-1.
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>> Any chance you could make it track an existing 14V dimmer circuit as
>> an option?
>>
>> Ron Q.
>
>
> Yeah, that can be done but given that 5v lighting (as
> is most incandescent panel lighting) is going the way
> of the buggy whip, there's virtually no way I would
> recover the cost of development. I don't expect to sell
> more than a half dozen of the 9033-1 as a lighting dimmer.
>
> The AEC9033-2 will be a power supply to eliminate batteries
> in a variety of hand-held devices that run from 2 or 3
> cells. I might sell a few more of those.
>
> Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
Eric Jones sells a dimmer that can be configured for whatever min and
max voltage range you desire:
http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
Dennis Glaeser
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
From: Don Vs
I am looking gor a recopmendation on purchase of a dimmer system for 5
volt
panel lights. My AC has a 14 volt system and the people who are
building an
ecgraved panel for me recomended 5 volt lights vs 14 volt because they
last
considerably longer.So, does anyone know of a good dimmer with a masx
output
of 5 volts with 14 volts in? Thanks. Don
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: aux music input quiet on flightcom 403mc |
At 07:30 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>I think if you need a mono output to your intercom, you could either
>mix the high impedance outputs of the transformers with a couple of
>1K resistors or mix the inputs with a couple of 10 ohm resistors and
>then take that and put it through a single transformer.
>
>- Bill
Transformers are an excellent solution to do some impedance matching
and increase the signal voltage available to the intercom and break a
possible grounding problem between the source device, if powered by
ships' power, that at times causes unwanted noise in audio systems,
however a few words of caution and some thoughts.
For reference, from the 603mc IM the aux input Z is 620 ohms, let's
call it 600 and keep it simple.
While the transformer will break any DC connection, an AC connection
remains, and source and load resistances (impedances) from the input
to output, or vice versa, are still a function of the turns
ratio. Simply put, given a transformer with a 1:1 TURNS ratio
connected to a 600 ohm output load, what ever it is connected to the
input will see that 600 ohm load; 10k on the load, the input sees
10k. It's called a reflected load. The voltage and impedance ratios
are only the same with a 1:1 transformer. While the voltage change
is equal to the turns ratio, the impedance difference is the square
of the turns ratio, or the turns ratio is the square-root of the
impedance ratio if that's what you have to work with.
For that 8 ohm to 2000 ohm the Z ratio is 250, or 1:250, but the
turns ratio is just 1:15.8; assuming an ideal transformer. I'll call
it 1:16 for a real world value. Still a good increase in voltage,
but we still have to consider reflected load impedance. That 2000
ohm secondary is loaded by a 600 ohm input. Divide that load
resistance by 250, the Z ratio, and the device driving the
transformer sees a very low 2.4 ohms.
That mp3 player would likely be most unhappy.
On to your solutions proposed above. Hopefully I've correctly
understood what you were saying and put it to paper. Only two sheets
this time. Apologies for that entire data sheet before, that was
not my intent at all !
Sheet one shows what happens with the first solution. Load Z should
be fine at ~42 ohms, but the actual output voltage to the aux input
from a single channel is only 90% of what the mp3 player puts out due
to the loss in the resistive combining network. The actual output
would add L & R algebraically, but would not double unless both
channels had exactly the same program material, a mono source.
Sheet two is what I think is your second suggestion. Here the load Z
an mp3 output channel would 'see' is ~12.4 ohms. Depending on the
device that may be just fine if still a tad low. The overall voltage
'gain' is again the product of the transformer gain, the turns ratio,
16, and the loss from the 10 ohm input resistors looking into that
2.4 ohm reflected load; only 19% of the signal gets through. So the
overall voltage gain, from the output of the mp3 to the aux input of
the 403 is a bit over 3. That's good, but likely not really enough.
For both of these examples we have the generalized case of the
voltage 'gain' of the transformer turns ratio (~16) times the 'loss'
of the [resistor - transformer] combining network ( 0.0566 or 0.1935)
working into the 600 ohm input load of the 403. Were the input-Z of
the 603 higher some additional voltage gain from the transformer
would be easier to achieve, but then other issues of mixing outputs
crop back in.
The active summing amplifier solution, for practical purposes,
eliminates any of those problems since the inverting input of the
op-amp is essentially at ground and neither output channel sees or
interacts with the other. One down side is the inversion of absolute
signal polarity for both left and right channels. Using a
combination of both two transformers and the active summing both the
inversion could be corrected, the mp3 output could be de-loaded a bit
more to keep it happier, and you would have the gain of the amp as
well. Use circuit one and take the junction of the two 10k resistors
to the inverting input pin #2. The mp3 now sees a very nice 40 ohm
load, there is no channel to channel output loading or crosstalk
problems. Don't skimp on the transformer, use something good for a
couple hundred mW.
There just isn't a really good inexpensive passive solution for
mixing two signal sources (L & R) and getting a good amount voltage
gain at the same time, at least not that immediately comes to mind,
what I have left that is.
Ron Q.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
At 11:51 AM 4/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
><dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
>
>Eric Jones sells a dimmer that can be configured for whatever min and
>max voltage range you desire:
>http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
This product uses the LM317 linear adjustable regulator
to drop the incoming voltage to the desired level and hold
it by means of a feedback loops that provides active
regulation. When set up to provide say 5 volts at 1 amp
of output it must dispose of 9 volts x 1 amp or 9 watts
of power that will manifest itself as heating in the
LM317.
The heat sink provided for this device is not adequate to
shed 9w of heat and keep the LM317 happy. The 1.5A
rating of this product depends on a max bright
load of 1.5A falling to some more tolerable value as
the brightness is turned down. There's a figure in the
'Connection that speaks to characteristics of incandescent
lamps. It shows that at 50% of rated voltage, an incandescent
lamp still draws about 70% of rated current. So turning intensity
down to 7 volts on our 1.5A hypothetical offers a load
of 1.05 Amps. The 7 volt drop at 1.05 amps still asks
the heatsink to cool the LM317 with a 7.2 watt heat
rejection task. It's still too small.
5 Volt, long lived imbedded lamps tend to have beefy filaments . . . the
lamps are generally rated at 100 mA or more each. It takes
only 10 lamps in the string to provide a 1A load to a lighting
dimmer.
The pure linear dimmers such as the one cited above and
those offered by B&C are not well suited for controlling
5v lighting systems because of their inefficiencies. Note
also that the B&C 1.5A regulator comes with an LM317
chip . . . and it's on a much bigger heatsink to insure
regulator performance at full rated current at any output
voltage setting and max expected local ambient temperature.
The AEC9033 series devices are switchmode regulators that
offer about 80% minimum efficiency over the full range of
voltage settings and loads. This means that with the output
set for say 5V on a 4A load (20 Watts out) the heat rejected
by the assembly is under 5 watts.
Depending on heat rejection studies at the prototype stage
-AND- radio noise studies the output of the 9033 series
devices may have to be de-rated . . . but in no case do
I expect it to be less than 2.5 amps.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dimmer for 5 volt lights |
At 10:05 AM 4/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Why 5 volts? Sure, in theory the filaments are thicker and more reliable
>in high vibration situations but is it meaningful for 12 volt vehicles.
>Apparently it is already increasing complexity and costs.
>
>How many bulbs here? Would it make sense to put a couple of strings of 3
>in series for 14.4 volts operation? Can they be replaced with 12 volt
>bulbs? LED's?
>
>Ken
Imbedded lamps in back lit panels for aircraft use
wire lead devices held in place with epoxy. VERY
difficult to change out. The practice of choice for
this technology when it was new (about 1965) was
to use the longest life lamps we could put our hands
on. See:
http://tinyurl.com/22268w
Here's an excerpt from the lamps listing in Allied's
catalog. Note the style 13 and 15 lamps are all small,
wire leaded devices. Note the exemplary rated lives
for some of these lamps . . . 60,000 hours!!!
Today, I'd sure be looking for ways to use leds in
this application, check out the price of those lamps.
The 5v imbedded technology was a really whoopy-do thing
about 25 years ago and there are still folks who make
a good living fabricating spares for thousands of aircraft
that use it. I'd sure think twice before I used it in
a new design.
Bob. . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
Thanks Roger,
I can do that by moving my Cabin Light switch overhead next to the
light. That will give me enough space. I like that idea.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Cole
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Vaughn,
My only suggestion would be to make a space on the panel between the
four groups of switches (i.e/, DC Power, Engine, Avionics, and Lights).
That way you will be able to find the switch that you want by feel in
darkness, turbulence, or whatever.
Roger Cole
Murphy Elite (building wings)
On Apr 8, 2007, at 11:20 AM, Gaye and Vaughn wrote:
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All
subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate
feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
<scan0001.pdf>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Final schematic |
Thanks Mike,
I moved the secondary pump over to the endurance bus, which will be
powered by the Rotax internal alternator with all switches off.
I thought Bob interrupted the "C" connection on the Ducati regulator,
which Lockwood says not to do. They insist that R, B, and C be connected
so that they can't be one without the other. I wouldn't go against their
recommendations for warranty reasons.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Gregory
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Vaughn,
Because you are running a Rotax 914, which has no mechanical fuel
pump, you must have at least one of your two electric pumps working to
avoid a silent experience in flight that would probably upset Gaye's
delicate feelings as well as yours. I therefore consider it unwise to
feed both pumps from your battery bus because a single failure (e.g. of
the 12 awg feed to that bus) could render both pumps inoperative. I
suggest one pump should be fed from a supply that can receive power from
either alternator, such as the endurance bus.
You may wish to consider your overvoltage protection relay for the
Rotax alternator circuit operating to open the AC voltage input that
goes to the regulator G terminals (i.e. break into one of the yellow
leads) as suggested in the Z 16 schematic. Bob now recommends this in
preference to interrupting the output of the regulator.
Best regards
Mike
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye
and Vaughn
Sent: 08 April 2007 17:21
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of
switches, but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All
subscribers feel free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate
feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
Message 11
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Hello listers,
Can anyone recommend a wide angle, high intensity, red blinking LED,
suitable for panel mount to be used for low oil pressure alarm? LEDs are
plentiful, but it doesn't seem so easy to match all criteria.
Thanks
Rumen
Message 12
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Vaughn,
In Bob's earlier Z 7 schematic for the Rotax-type dynamo/alternator, the
voltage regulator B and R were joined together at the capacitor and then to
the battery via the OV relay contacts. The voltage regulator C terminal was
connected to the battery via the alternator/battery master switch, and
provided the battery reference voltage to the regulator. Rotax subsequently
changed their circuit recommendation so that the B, R. and C terminals were
all connected together, and Bob developed Z 16, which has the overvoltage
relay killing the input to the regulator rather than its output. This is a
safer way to react to an overvoltage output from the regulator, because
without any input its voltage output is automatically killed and also it
cannot overheat.
Please make sure that in your physical layout you provide a good cooling air
flow for the Ducati regulator, because a number of people have reported
problems with short life if this gets too hot in service.
Best regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: 10 April 2007 20:30
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Thanks Mike,
I moved the secondary pump over to the endurance bus, which will be powered
by the Rotax internal alternator with all switches off.
I thought Bob interrupted the "C" connection on the Ducati regulator, which
Lockwood says not to do. They insist that R, B, and C be connected so that
they can't be one without the other. I wouldn't go against their
recommendations for warranty reasons.
Vaughn
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike <mailto:m.j.gregory@talk21.com> Gregory
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
Vaughn,
Because you are running a Rotax 914, which has no mechanical fuel pump, you
must have at least one of your two electric pumps working to avoid a silent
experience in flight that would probably upset Gaye's delicate feelings as
well as yours. I therefore consider it unwise to feed both pumps from your
battery bus because a single failure (e.g. of the 12 awg feed to that bus)
could render both pumps inoperative. I suggest one pump should be fed from
a supply that can receive power from either alternator, such as the
endurance bus.
You may wish to consider your overvoltage protection relay for the Rotax
alternator circuit operating to open the AC voltage input that goes to the
regulator G terminals (i.e. break into one of the yellow leads) as suggested
in the Z 16 schematic. Bob now recommends this in preference to interrupting
the output of the regulator.
Best regards
Mike
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gaye and
Vaughn
Sent: 08 April 2007 17:21
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Final schematic
I am attaching my final(almost) main schematic. There are lots of switches,
but all up makes it run and all down kills the sparks. All subscribers feel
free to critique, not criticize, due to delicate feelings of neophyte.
Vaughn Teegarden
Europa XS mono, Rotax 914
Message 13
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Try this...
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62553&cp=&sr=1&origk
w=red+led&kw=red+led&parentPage=search
Bret Smith
RV-9A (91314)
Mineral Bluff, GA
www.FlightInnovations.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rd2@evenlink.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:32 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: blinking LED
Hello listers,
Can anyone recommend a wide angle, high intensity, red blinking LED,
suitable for panel mount to be used for low oil pressure alarm? LEDs are
plentiful, but it doesn't seem so easy to match all criteria.
Thanks
Rumen
Message 14
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At 10:03 PM 4/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Try this...
>http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId 62553&cp=&sr=1&origk
>w=red+led&kw=red+led&parentPage=search
>
>
>Bret Smith
>RV-9A (91314)
>Mineral Bluff, GA
>www.FlightInnovations.com
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>rd2@evenlink.com
>Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2007 6:32 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: blinking LED
>
>
>Hello listers,
>
>Can anyone recommend a wide angle, high intensity, red blinking LED,
>suitable for panel mount to be used for low oil pressure alarm? LEDs are
>plentiful, but it doesn't seem so easy to match all criteria.
You can get high intensity and you can get blink but not
both in any components I've seen. Soooooo . . . get a "blinker"
of any color and hook it in series with a high intensity red
and mount the blinker out of sight someplace except on the
panel.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
----------------------------------------
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor location |
Thanks Bob and Todd for your sage advice on the "fat" wires and locating my starter
contactor. After reviewing what I had planned regarding the contactor, I
found that I may have had a misplaced electron (or maybe I was short a few) in
my brain housing group [Embarassed] I must also admit that I'm a bit bummed about
the AeroElectric list. Bummed because I spent a lot of time over the last
several months trying to figure out my new electrical system and most all of
the answers were already here for the asking. I just didn't get here soon enough.
Guess I should thank someone at B & C for the tip. Don't go away because I'm
sure that more answers will be needed in the future. Thanks again.
Leo Holler
leoh@gci.net
Do not archive
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