---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/01/07: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:10 AM - Re: Blank Message? (Gilles Thesee) 2. 03:36 AM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (David Abrahamson) 3. 05:36 AM - Re: Re: HID lights (Steve Thomas) 4. 06:05 AM - Dual power source (Sam Marlow) 5. 06:36 AM - Re: SELF EXCITING DUAL POWER SUPPLY WITH OCM (Ken) 6. 06:39 AM - Re: Dual power source (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 06:48 AM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 07:10 AM - Re: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 08:18 AM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (Carlos Trigo) 10. 08:47 AM - Re: X1010 beam pattern and weights (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 11. 09:33 AM - Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 12. 09:40 AM - Re: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics (BobsV35B@aol.com) 13. 11:09 AM - "stuck" starter (Fergus Kyle) 14. 02:53 PM - Re: SELF EXCITING DUAL POWER SUPPLY WITH OCM (Peter Harris) 15. 03:33 PM - Re: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY (Peter Harris) 16. 04:09 PM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics (Kevin Horton) 18. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 05:45 PM - Re: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics (BobsV35B@aol.com) 20. 06:08 PM - Fuselink for battery master/ alt field (William Crook) 21. 11:31 PM - Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 22. 11:39 PM - Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:26 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Blank Message? Steve Thomas a crit : > > Did my last two messages come through blank? > Yes, but looking at the source code I was able to read the content. It seems your mail client is Apple Mail, so maybe it has something to do with your settings ? Regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:42 AM PST US From: David Abrahamson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 Larry, From your description, it seems to me you can keep the magnetometer (GRT) and its wiring away from the strobe wiring -- all the way to behind the panel if you choose to. If you'd like to email me off-line (dave@abrahamson.net), I can send you pictures of where I mounted the magnetometer and describe to you how I routed my wires. I can suggest to you a routing of your wires if you determine that the strobe power wires and magnetometer bundle must be kept apart from beginning to end. David, N98DA, RV-7, flying. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:06 AM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: HID lights Rob, How effective is the light output? Did you focus them independently for Landing & taxi? Best Regards, Steve Thomas SteveT.Net 805-569-0336 ____________________________________________________________________ On Apr 30, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Rob Turk wrote: > Please note that there's two different Micro-DE versions. One is > just an ordinary lamp, the other is Xenon. We have integrated the > Xenon-DE in our Rans S6S cowl. Pictures available as soon as the > paintjob is ready. I can tell you that the light is just as white > as any other Xenon car headlight. >
________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:12 AM PST US From: Sam Marlow Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dual power source How do I connect a dual power source to my standby horizon, it's a TT brand. I'm wanting to use a second battery if possible. Thanks, Sam Marlow RV10 Wiring ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:37 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SELF EXCITING DUAL POWER SUPPLY WITH OCM Peter Yes we like to use diodes or something to recycle the inductive energy when things like contactor coils are de-energised. However for practical purposes, spikes or "transients" capable of doing damage don't really exist in our systems. An OVM tripping event is not instantaneous. If the overvoltage lasts long enough to trip the OVM, then it is about long enough to fry most devices (such as transorbs) designed to limit/absorb excess voltage/energy. Further, if the overvoltage is that long, it is most certainly coming from an out of control alternator and you want that disconnected before it can damage other electronics such as your EFI. Yes the OVM can limit the voltage for the few tens of milliseconds that it will take for the relay to open. For a more direct answer to your question: A 20 amp PM alternator won't put out much more than 20 amps under any circumstances but little solid state protective devices can only absorb that kind of power for a few millecseconds, thus the need to disconnect. I have never had a false OVM trip with either of my OVM's that are of the current design. I have had real trips when my PM regulator failed. Nothing else was damaged. If it trips you can always turn it back on and watch it trip again if the voltage still rises too high. You definately want notification of low voltage to warn you of a trip or alternator failure. My Grand Rapids EIS with the Big Red flashing Light is effective for that. Ken PS-Being on a dial up connection, I have not looked at your diagrams. Peter Harris wrote: > >I have just realized that the alternator disconnect relay in Z25 is wired to >trip by the OVM and isolate the alternator if there is a spike but I am >thinking that I would not want to disconnect for the sake of a transient >which could be taken by the OVM safely to earth . >But does the OVM have sufficient current capacity to carry for a failed >regulator? Can we assume that the PM alternator will be saturated at about >20A ? >( I will run out of questions soon I promise) >Peter > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:49 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dual power source At 09:03 AM 5/1/2007 -0400, you wrote: >How do I connect a dual power source to my standby horizon, it's a TT >brand. I'm wanting to use a second battery if possible. >Thanks, >Sam Marlow >RV10 Wiring What architecture are you using for your electrical system? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 At 06:34 AM 5/1/2007 -0400, you wrote: > > >Larry, > From your description, it seems to me you can keep the magnetometer (GRT) > and its wiring away from the strobe wiring -- all the way to behind the > panel if you choose to. If you'd like to email me off-line > (dave@abrahamson.net), I can send you pictures of where I mounted the > magnetometer and describe to you how I routed my wires. I can suggest to > you a routing of your wires if you determine that the strobe power wires > and magnetometer bundle must be kept apart from beginning to end. >David, N98DA, RV-7, flying. There is no good reason in physics for keeping magnetometer and strobe wiring separate if the magnetometer is wired with multiple wires twisted together (and probably under a shield to boot). This what one does to make said wired impervious to local magnetic effects. If the strobe POWER wire passes within 2 feet of the magnetometer itself, then consider taking strobe power and ground past the magnetometer as a twisted pair. DO-160 has a protocol for investigating and quantifying magnetic effects . . . we look at these issues all the time. Wire bundles installed with any understanding and foresight at all are never a problem. Black boxes themselves are almost never a problem. It's easy to test. When everything is all installed, position your aircraft on 8 headings at 45 degree intervals around the compass and turn suspect antagonists on and off while observing displayed heading. Anything under 2 degrees of shift is generally considered acceptable and it's very seldom that we see ANY observable shifts. If we tried to pay homage to every ol' mechanic's tale about the need for separation of wire bundles for any reason, we'd never be able to build an airplane with electro-whizzies in it. Wire bundles have to go where there is room and systems that use wires in those bundles are expected to be designed with and installed with common sense about magnetically coupled noises. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY At 09:49 AM 5/1/2007 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Gilles, > >Thanks for the insight on the use of a supplementary battery . Is your >alternate battery in the charging loop or switched to charge? Can you >explain circuit details how you amended Z16 as I need to treat this as a >true option? > > >At the same time it is hard for me to let go of the idea that the self >excited alternator is a ready alternate independent power source for the ebus. > >(I hear your caution about the reliability of the Jabiru regulator and may >need to source another anyhow as it remains to be seen if the Jab >regulator will excite work in Z25) > >I have redrawn the circuit in a more simple arrangement which is now close >to the original plans issued for my Quickie but enhanced with the self >excitation feature of Z25, the OVM and with the added dual supply circuit >feature. > >The DPST master switch has been working OK for 20 years but will benefit >from the OVM which I think is essential for protection of the ebus. > > >But have I shown it in the right place for this protection? > > >The original plans depend on the master switch to isolate battery from >alternator from bus . There are no alternator or battery disconnect relays. > >I see an advantage in using those relays to limit heavy current wiring in >the cockpit but I already have the wiring and an amp meter with internal shunt. > >Is there another advantage in the use of these relays ? > > >Thanks for your patience as I am obviously at the bottom of the learning >curve. The OVM-14 is a device intended to open a breaker or other fast acting fault protection. It can easily handle 300 amps . . . for milliseconds. Departures in wiring from those depicted in the 'Connection should be carefully considered so as not to violate the device's limits or design goals. I'm still mystified as to what's driving your design study here. Every architecture depicted in the 'Connection offers a minimum of two and sometimes three or four power sources for devices you'd like to always have running. Certainly you're free to re-invent any wheels you wish in the fabrication of your project but may I suggest that perhaps we should identify deficiencies in architectures that have been field tested in perhaps thousands of airplanes and address those deficiencies while minimizing the risks for unintended consequences? The architecture you've shown is guaranteed to generate smoke as a result of an ov trip. If we don't exercise due diligence in such an exercise, I'd be reluctant accept any suggestion that your final design was the product of any "assistance" you got from the 'Connection or members of this List. I got a nastygram from a builder a couple of years ago who suffered a lot of unexpected and unhappy events with his system and wrote to hammer me for having led him astray. After he finally gave up a sketch of his architecture, it was obvious that whatever benefit he received from the book was not applied to his airplane. I sent his drawing back along with a check for $33 and a note requesting that he refrain from telling anyone that I had anything to do with his project for it was obvious that I did not. I wonder sometimes at Greg Richter's claim: "I've seen so much truly atrocious work, much of it per Bob's book". If someone acquired the book and then set fire to their airplane, it's exceedingly doubtful that they benefited from ownership of the book. In such cases, I'm justified in "disowning" them as customers. There's a better way to get where you want to go with this system my friend but so far we've yet to set the train up on the rails that lead to success. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:08 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 Larry In my RV-9A, I also have my (Whelen) strobe units in the wing tips, therefore I decided to install the magnetometer right aft the baggage compartment, below the upper fuselage skin, and it's not my original idea, since I'm aware of some other builders having done it. I cannot report any results, because I am still not flying. Carlos Trigo ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry L. Tompkins, P.E. To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 6:56 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 It appears that one item I wasn't smart enough to consider when I selected the position/landing/strobe light system for the RV-7 I am building was magnetometer location for an EFIS. Looking through the installation manuals for Brand AFS and brand GRT, one recommends 24" clearance and the other 12" clearance to strobe wires. I installed a CreativAir single power pack strobe sytem in the wings, which means that I have power supply wires and strobe wires running through the wings. Even using the rib hole locations specified by Van's, the maximum spacing between wire runs is only 6". Does this mean I will have to replace the CreativAir sytem with individual power supplies? Or is there an alternative? I am assuming that I need only concern myself with the magnetometer itself and not the leads to the magnetometer, but I don't want to get into trouble with that assumption either. Thanks, Larry Tompkins ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:41 AM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: X1010 beam pattern and weights I have not done any careful measurements of the lights beam pattern, but do have the following *estimates* of lateral dispersion. Fog bulb cover installed - 50=B0 (taxi light) Fog cover removed - 25=B0 (landing light) Vertical dispersion is *very* low with the cover in place, certainly less than 10=B0. Much more and OK for a landing light (How's that for technical justification?) with the cover off. As you can imagine, the actual full dispersion has to be at least the same with the cover off as with the cover on. The big difference is really the size and power in the central hot spot. In the fog version, this is a very small spot with limited down-the-taxi penetration. With the bulb cover removed, the hot spot is much larger and more powerful, and completely dominates the beam's appearance. Note that the bulb cover is actually an enveloping piece of solid metal, completely covering the front 1/2 of the bulb and with carefully cut leakage patterns in the rear and sides. The 4250=B0 units I bought put out out a very white light. Final note - the case/reflector in the X1010 is 1 piece of metal; only the rear cover is plastic. It is completely weathersealed and seems *very* robust. The lens is tempered glass, meaning that you could comfortably leave it exposed to the wind and rain if that was your mounting preference. It isn't light. Weights: 1 lighting unit - 25 oz. 1 ballast unit - 11 oz FWIW, Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:54 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics Bob, I am in phase one testing with only 15 hrs on the system, so of course, VFR/day only and within 50 NM radius. Before relying on this 4 yr old PC680 for phase one though, I load tested it and was good. Begs the question though, isn't it being "load tested" on each engine startup? Do you advise other periodic testing? My copy of AEC at hangar... Of course, if/when I do nitetime ops and/or IFR, then I'll go to a yearly mode for battery replacement. Thanx, Jerry Cochran If you have "a plan" for dealing with electrical system failure, there's nothing inherently wrong with running a battery until it croaks an won't start the engine any more. My admonition for a PM program that tracks battery condition by either measurement or periodic replacement presumes that you fly in conditions where loss of the system is likely to star you in a dark-n-stormy-night story. It has nothing to do with being "cheap" and everything to do with failure mode effects analysis: "What's the sweat-factor for having this part fail and what's the most efficient investment of $time$ to mitigate that condition? If you're in a no-sweat mode of ownership and operation, then running the battery into the ground IS the most efficient cost of ownership philosophy. Bob . . . ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:32 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics In a message dated 5/1/2007 11:36:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Jerry2DT@aol.com writes: I am in phase one testing with only 15 hrs on the system, so of course, VFR/day only and within 50 NM radius. Before relying on this 4 yr old PC680 for phase one though, I load tested it and was good. Begs the question though, isn't it being "load tested" on each engine startup? Do you advise other periodic testing? My copy of AEC at hangar... Good Morning Jerry, Different Bob here, but I think you will find that a battery that tests as low as, or even lower than, ten percent of it's normal category will still crank an engine. Proper load testing needs to be done on a regular basis as suggested by 'Lectric Bob and others. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:52 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: "stuck" starter The Harvard/Texan/SNJ series aircraft had a cranking shaft sticking out of either the port or starboard side of the engine bay. Some poor fish had to insert a crank (found in the after luggage bay), stand on a small footrest and crank that b*****g till the pilot signalled then stand back. I know, I was both cranker and crankee. That shaft continues to rotate as long as the starter ring does, so during taxi-out, the job requires checking that the starter is disengaged - or taxi back. A buddy here at the museum neglected that small task and after about three circuits smelled smoke. By the time he managed to return to the hangar, the starter motor was welded shut and mucho pesos were demanded. A light sounds good to me but only warns of a powered starter I guess. Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:33 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SELF EXCITING DUAL POWER SUPPLY WITH OCM Thanks Ken that clears it for me and now I know with certainty to use the alternator contactor relay/OVM . I understand that the OVM will trip before damage to the remainder of the circuit. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Tuesday, 1 May 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SELF EXCITING DUAL POWER SUPPLY WITH OCM Peter Yes we like to use diodes or something to recycle the inductive energy when things like contactor coils are de-energised. However for practical purposes, spikes or "transients" capable of doing damage don't really exist in our systems. An OVM tripping event is not instantaneous. If the overvoltage lasts long enough to trip the OVM, then it is about long enough to fry most devices (such as transorbs) designed to limit/absorb excess voltage/energy. Further, if the overvoltage is that long, it is most certainly coming from an out of control alternator and you want that disconnected before it can damage other electronics such as your EFI. Yes the OVM can limit the voltage for the few tens of milliseconds that it will take for the relay to open. For a more direct answer to your question: A 20 amp PM alternator won't put out much more than 20 amps under any circumstances but little solid state protective devices can only absorb that kind of power for a few millecseconds, thus the need to disconnect. I have never had a false OVM trip with either of my OVM's that are of the current design. I have had real trips when my PM regulator failed. Nothing else was damaged. If it trips you can always turn it back on and watch it trip again if the voltage still rises too high. You definately want notification of low voltage to warn you of a trip or alternator failure. My Grand Rapids EIS with the Big Red flashing Light is effective for that. Ken PS-Being on a dial up connection, I have not looked at your diagrams. Peter Harris wrote: > >I have just realized that the alternator disconnect relay in Z25 is wired to >trip by the OVM and isolate the alternator if there is a spike but I am >thinking that I would not want to disconnect for the sake of a transient >which could be taken by the OVM safely to earth . >But does the OVM have sufficient current capacity to carry for a failed >regulator? Can we assume that the PM alternator will be saturated at about >20A ? >( I will run out of questions soon I promise) >Peter > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:56 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY Bob, I did not mean to strike a raw nerve reflecting on your work and I apologise if my ideas or questions are received that way. It is not intended, I just like to know how and why. Ken has explained the OVM-trip-relay sensitivity to answer that question which should help to keep the smoke down to a minimum. I am working with old architecture and a PM alternator in an attempt to make a safe dual power source. The rest of what I need to know seems to be covered in Z16.I am open to any other suggestions. Thanks Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2007 1:09 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY At 09:49 AM 5/1/2007 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Gilles, > >Thanks for the insight on the use of a supplementary battery . Is your >alternate battery in the charging loop or switched to charge? Can you >explain circuit details how you amended Z16 as I need to treat this as a >true option? > > >At the same time it is hard for me to let go of the idea that the self >excited alternator is a ready alternate independent power source for the ebus. > >(I hear your caution about the reliability of the Jabiru regulator and may >need to source another anyhow as it remains to be seen if the Jab >regulator will excite work in Z25) > >I have redrawn the circuit in a more simple arrangement which is now close >to the original plans issued for my Quickie but enhanced with the self >excitation feature of Z25, the OVM and with the added dual supply circuit >feature. > >The DPST master switch has been working OK for 20 years but will benefit >from the OVM which I think is essential for protection of the ebus. > > >But have I shown it in the right place for this protection? > > >The original plans depend on the master switch to isolate battery from >alternator from bus . There are no alternator or battery disconnect relays. > >I see an advantage in using those relays to limit heavy current wiring in >the cockpit but I already have the wiring and an amp meter with internal shunt. > >Is there another advantage in the use of these relays ? > > >Thanks for your patience as I am obviously at the bottom of the learning >curve. The OVM-14 is a device intended to open a breaker or other fast acting fault protection. It can easily handle 300 amps . . . for milliseconds. Departures in wiring from those depicted in the 'Connection should be carefully considered so as not to violate the device's limits or design goals. I'm still mystified as to what's driving your design study here. Every architecture depicted in the 'Connection offers a minimum of two and sometimes three or four power sources for devices you'd like to always have running. Certainly you're free to re-invent any wheels you wish in the fabrication of your project but may I suggest that perhaps we should identify deficiencies in architectures that have been field tested in perhaps thousands of airplanes and address those deficiencies while minimizing the risks for unintended consequences? The architecture you've shown is guaranteed to generate smoke as a result of an ov trip. If we don't exercise due diligence in such an exercise, I'd be reluctant accept any suggestion that your final design was the product of any "assistance" you got from the 'Connection or members of this List. I got a nastygram from a builder a couple of years ago who suffered a lot of unexpected and unhappy events with his system and wrote to hammer me for having led him astray. After he finally gave up a sketch of his architecture, it was obvious that whatever benefit he received from the book was not applied to his airplane. I sent his drawing back along with a check for $33 and a note requesting that he refrain from telling anyone that I had anything to do with his project for it was obvious that I did not. I wonder sometimes at Greg Richter's claim: "I've seen so much truly atrocious work, much of it per Bob's book". If someone acquired the book and then set fire to their airplane, it's exceedingly doubtful that they benefited from ownership of the book. In such cases, I'm justified in "disowning" them as customers. There's a better way to get where you want to go with this system my friend but so far we've yet to set the train up on the rails that lead to success. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:48 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 At 04:14 PM 5/1/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Larry > >In my RV-9A, I also have my (Whelen) strobe units in the wing tips, >therefore I decided to install the magnetometer right aft the baggage >compartment, below the upper fuselage skin, and it's not my original idea, >since I'm aware of some other builders having done it. >I cannot report any results, because I am still not flying. I hope you'll conduct an "observable effects" test at your earliest convenience and report back to us! Thanks. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:14 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics On 1 May 2007, at 12:39, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/1/2007 11:36:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > Jerry2DT@aol.com writes: > I am in phase one testing with only 15 hrs on the system, so of > course, VFR/day only and within 50 NM radius. Before relying on > this 4 yr old PC680 for phase one though, I load tested it and was > good. Begs the question though, isn't it being "load tested" on > each engine startup? Do you advise other periodic testing? My copy > of AEC at hangar... > Good Morning Jerry, > > Different Bob here, but I think you will find that a battery that > tests as low as, or even lower than, ten percent of it's normal > category will still crank an engine. Proper load testing needs to > be done on a regular basis as suggested by 'Lectric Bob and others. > Load testing should be done, if safety depends on having a battery of some particular capacity. If the consequences of alternator failure + battery failure are acceptable, then there is no need to do periodic battery load testing. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics At 12:31 PM 5/1/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Bob, > >I am in phase one testing with only 15 hrs on the system, so of course, >VFR/day only and within 50 NM radius. Before relying on this 4 yr old >PC680 for phase one though, I load tested it and was good. Begs the >question though, isn't it being "load tested" on each engine startup? Do >you advise other periodic testing? My copy of AEC at hangar... > >Of course, if/when I do nitetime ops and/or IFR, then I'll go to a yearly >mode for battery replacement. There are two kinds of tests that one conducts on a battery to know "all of the story". Yes, cranking the engine is a non-quantified but certainly valid anecdotal "load test". The tests accomplished by your local service mechanic with something like this . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/Battery_Testers/HF91129_4.jpg is a quantified equivalent of the "see if she cranks" test. The other piece of data still more useful to the owner/operator is the CAPACITY test. "How long will it run the useful goodies on my panel?" A load test won't tell you but a cap test with this thing will . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Tools/CBA2_1.jpg If you don't want to invest $time$ in doing the periodic hat dance necessary for the quantified test, then you simple replace it long before you think it's capacity is compromised with age. Sometimes the periodic, blind replacement is more effective for reducing cost of ownership than detailed testing. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:46 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 12v supply to stabilize avionics In a message dated 5/1/2007 6:43:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, khorton01@rogers.com writes: Load testing should be done, if safety depends on having a battery of some particular capacity. If the consequences of alternator failure + battery failure are acceptable, then there is no need to do periodic battery load testing. Good Evening Kevin, No argument with your analysis at all. I was merely trying to point out that just because a battery starts the engine does NOT mean it has been "load tested". If the engine will run with no electricity at all, who needs a battery? You can prop it and go fly. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:01 PM PST US From: William Crook Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fuselink for battery master/ alt field 'Lectric Listers: I had to fun of attending Bob's seminar recently in Winterville, NC. Great time, I learned a tremendous amount. My wiring is pretty much straight Z-11, except I am using Plane Power's internally regulated alternator. The diagram shows a 22AWG fuselink off the main buss lead powering the alternater field through the batt/alt master swith (Z-11). The alt field is further protected with a 5A pullable breaker between the switch and the alternator. The note I scribbled down is that the fuselink is there in addition to the CB to allow the Plane Power's crowbar protection module to do its job (which, as I understand it, is to cause an instant ground fault upon overvoltage, thereby forcing the breaker to trip). I suppose the fuselink also protects the wire between the main buss and the switch. I asked the guys at Plane Power's booth at SNF to explain further, but they felt that the fuselink was not necessary. Standing by for my lesson. Thanks, Will Glastar Waynesville, NC (PS: Bob: any progress on the pitot tube connector?) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:31:08 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains AeroElectric-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the AeroElectric-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the AeroElectric-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information. The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is: http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed. You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request. The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post until you receive the second conformation email message. ***************************** *** How to Post a Message *** ***************************** Send an email message to: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed to the List. ***************************************************** *** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post *** ***************************************************** When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor. If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that gets posted to the Lists. Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "aeroelectric-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the AeroElectric-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/aeroelectric-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all AeroElectric-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the AeroElectric-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * AeroElectric-List.FAQ - Latest version of the AeroElectric-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the AeroElectric-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the AeroElectric-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:01 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the AeroElectric-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. AeroElectric-List Policy Statement The purpose of the AeroElectric-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.