---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/02/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:10 AM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (David Abrahamson) 2. 06:15 AM - Re: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 06:20 AM - Re: "stuck" starter (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:55 AM - RV Fuel Filler Decals - 2 for $8 shipped (Jack Haviland) 6. 09:10 AM - Re: Dual power source (Jekyll) 7. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Dual power source (Michael Ice) 8. 10:54 AM - Re: Cigarette Lighter Alternatives -> EmPower ARINC 628, PowerLet BMWCigarette Lighter Alternatives -> EmPower (Greg Campbell) 9. 11:35 AM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (Larry L. Tompkins, P.E.) 10. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Dual power source (BobsV35B@aol.com) 11. 12:05 PM - Re: Re: Dual power source (Michael Ice) 12. 12:27 PM - Re: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 12:27 PM - Re: Dual power source (Jekyll) 14. 09:21 PM - Re: Re: Dual power source (Sam Marlow) 15. 11:28 PM - BASIC DUAL INDEPENDENT POWER SUPPLY (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:10:28 AM PST US From: David Abrahamson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 I am lucky to be flying my RV7 in phase I and have performed the GRT magnetometer calibration, as well as the in-flight Trutrak Digiflight II VSGV magnetometer alignment. The latter uses GPS data to do its automatic calibration dance, as the anxious pilot looks for traffic, while the GRT calibration is done on the ground with the aid of a magnetic compass. I am happy to report that the two magnetometers are in full agreement. I mounted my GRT magnetometer in the same location as Carlos, and ran the wire down the middle of the plane, through the spar bulkhead where it joins a large bundle that includes the Whelen power supply and ground wires, on the way to the space behind the panel. The magnetometer wire bundle consists of several loose 22AWG wires, neither twisted, nor shielded, whose routing GRT says is unimportant as long as the magnetometer standoff is as directed. I mounted the unit on an aluminum shelf, and secured it with two brass screws. David ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL POWER SUPPLY At 08:30 AM 5/2/2007 +1000, you wrote: > > >Bob, >I did not mean to strike a raw nerve reflecting on your work and I apologise >if my ideas or questions are received that way. It is not intended, I just >like to know how and why. I didn't intend to come off that way. It was just a hypothetical musing as to how a lot of what looks and sniffs like stuff in the 'Connection is not work that we can properly . . . nor would we claim as members of the society for the filtering and assembly of simple ideas (SFASI). You have nothing to apologize for. I was simply hashing over a point about making changes to a successful recipe without making a due-diligence evaluation of what "improvement" is being sought and attempting to deduce all the unintended consequences for having made changes. My comments were not directed at anyone, particularly you sir. It was just a manifestation of some degree of frustration with all the $time$ expended on a somewhat random stirring of ideas with out benefit of SFASI. I'm seeing a LOT of that where I work these days and no doubt most of my frustration comes from that source. I was chartered to investigate the simple ideas behind a situation that has cost us somewhere around a half million dollars off the bottom line due to an ill conceived idea going to production about 6 years ago. Now that the pressure to "fix" it has reached the tipping point, there are others whining about the $100,000 it's going to take to correct the problem and still others eager to apply their policy-and-procedure driven charters to levy piles of senseless paper work onto the task. So the cash drain goes on, folks on the line continue to curse the engineers and we hat-dance around the paper pile for another 6 months or so. This ladies and gentlemen smells strongly of stupidity . . . for which there is no cure. My time there may be more limited than I had originally planned. Many folks have interpreted my position as being a severe case of "not invented here" syndrome. They don't understand the time and thought processes needed to evaluate a variation on one of the Z-figures . . . especially when only one feature is being discussed out of context as it were. This is why I've suggested that we always start with one of the Z-figures, compare its capabilities with your mission and hardware and consider incremental changes necessary to cover some new or overlooked feature. Each of the Z-figures evolved out of exactly these kinds of discussions over the past 20 years. It may be that we'll discover the need for a new Z-figure after we discuss your needs in more detail. >Ken has explained the OVM-trip-relay sensitivity to answer that question >which should help to keep the smoke down to a minimum. >I am working with old architecture and a PM alternator in an attempt to make >a safe dual power source. The rest of what I need to know seems to be >covered in Z16.I am open to any other suggestions. I went to my archives and found 38 posts on this thread over the last 20 days or so. I don't have time to sift through them all for pertinent points so please indulge my ignorance and update me on the pertinent points. As I recall . . . Which "old" architecture? I understand you have a Jabiru engine with a PM alternator. The 3300? I seem to recall that you were having trouble with getting the charging system to work. Is that resolved? There were several thread topics . . . one about regulator choices and the other about dual power supply. I note from the Jabiru manual that they're offering a 3-phase alternator but the wiring diagrams still show the 2-phase vesion. A schematic of the regulator shows it to be of the same general philosophy as the Ducati regulator supplied with Rotax engines and the regulator supplied with the B&C SD-8. These are not inherently self exciting . . . meaning that the regulator will not come alive until a battery is connected. However, once in operation, the system should produce power after the battery is disconnected. The PM alternators don't "stall" in the same sense as wound field automotive alternators. In fact, the risk to a PM system is stalling the regulator, not the alternator. But given that these regulators come alive at exceedingly small battery voltages (less than 1 volt) it's unlikely (but not impossible) to stall your system by severe transient overload if the battery is not on line. This raises questions about what kind of accessory in your proposed system is capable of "severe" overload? I suspect only that starter would do this so as long as you don't hit the starter button sans battery, I perceive no concerns for keeping the alternator up and running once it is started. What are you system requirements or design goals not met by let us say, Figure Z-16? Do you believe your proposed system has features with power reliability requirements not met by Z-16? Let's discuss it and see first if there IS a problem to be solved and then go after it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:32 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: "stuck" starter At 02:06 PM 5/1/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >The Harvard/Texan/SNJ series aircraft had a cranking shaft sticking out of >either the port or starboard side of the engine bay. Some poor fish had to >insert a crank (found in the after luggage bay), stand on a small footrest >and crank that b*****g till the pilot signalled then stand back. I know, I >was both cranker and crankee. >That shaft continues to rotate as long as the starter ring does, so during >taxi-out, the job requires checking that the starter is disengaged - or >taxi back. A buddy here at the museum neglected that small task and after >about three circuits smelled smoke. By the time he managed to return to >the hangar, the starter motor was welded shut and mucho pesos were demanded. >A light sounds good to me but only warns of a powered starter I guess. Hmmmm . . . Having trouble visualizing this. I remember a series of my own unsuccessful attempts to spin up the flywheel on a Curtis Robin about 30 years ago. Then being put in my place when a lady who ran the airport came over and promptly showed me how to do it! I presume you are talking about the same kind of starter. How does the pilot sense whether or not the starter stays engaged? Can he hear it? Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:40 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 At 07:08 AM 5/2/2007 -0400, you wrote: > > >I am lucky to be flying my RV7 in phase I and have performed the GRT >magnetometer calibration, as well as the in-flight Trutrak Digiflight II >VSGV magnetometer alignment. The latter uses GPS data to do its automatic >calibration dance, as the anxious pilot looks for traffic, while the GRT >calibration is done on the ground with the aid of a magnetic compass. I >am happy to report that the two magnetometers are in full agreement. >I mounted my GRT magnetometer in the same location as Carlos, and ran the >wire down the middle of the plane, through the spar bulkhead where it >joins a large bundle that includes the Whelen power supply and ground >wires, on the way to the space behind the panel. The magnetometer wire >bundle consists of several loose 22AWG wires, neither twisted, nor >shielded, whose routing GRT says is unimportant as long as the >magnetometer standoff is as directed. I mounted the unit on an aluminum >shelf, and secured it with two brass screws. >David Good data sir. Thank you. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:47 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: RV Fuel Filler Decals - 2 for $8 shipped From: Jack Haviland After changing my mind, I have two navy blue over clear, RV sized circular decals for sale - see at Jack H. jgh2@charter.net 810.629.1870 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:46 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source From: "Jekyll" Sam: More detail on the TT standby would help. TT has a battery pack for the ADI that comes with a spify miniature switch with an LED at the end to indicate when it's on battery power. You hook the battery power lead to the bus or busses of your choice. The battery comes with a prewired connector with a power lead for the ADI. You need a ground from both the ADI and the batter connector. ADI source power is controlled from the switch; one position sends ship power to the ADI and the other position sends battery power to the ADI. Preflight checks are as simple as flipping the switch and checking continued operation. Annual maintenance consists of running the ADI on battery power to ensure it runs for at least 60 minutes. It's well integrated with the ADI but is a bit dear at $100. Jekyll Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110441#110441 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:45 AM PST US From: Michael Ice Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source Jekyll, Off subject but: Do you know if the TT ADI battery is being charged while it is on regular ships power? Mike Ice ----- Original Message ----- From: Jekyll Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source > > Sam: > > More detail on the TT standby would help. TT has a battery pack > for the ADI that comes with a spify miniature switch with an LED > at the end to indicate when it's on battery power. You hook the > battery power lead to the bus or busses of your choice. The > battery comes with a prewired connector with a power lead for the > ADI. You need a ground from both the ADI and the batter connector. > ADI source power is controlled from the switch; one position sends > ship power to the ADI and the other position sends battery power > to the ADI. Preflight checks are as simple as flipping the switch > and checking continued operation. Annual maintenance consists of > running the ADI on battery power to ensure it runs for at least 60 > minutes. It's well integrated with the ADI but is a bit dear at $100. > > Jekyll > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110441#110441 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:37 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cigarette Lighter Alternatives -> EmPower ARINC 628, PowerLet BMWCigarette Lighter Alternatives -> EmPower From: Greg Campbell What you're missing is the opportunity to get RELIABLE and COMPACT power connections between the vehicles and devices you use 90% of the time. I'm willing to make ARINC 628 tipped cords if it means 99.9% reliability 90% of the time! For the other 10% of the time (like when I'm in a rental car with ONLY cigarette lighters), then I have the option of using a reliable ARINC to Cigarette Plug adapter. The ARINC plug to ARINC socket is essentially "transparent", so I'm no worse off than the status quo - which is limited by the quality of the cigarette plug & socket. But now I only have to put up with the "status quo" for 10% of my missions! My Kensington power supplies and HP power supplies came with nice adapters that are no bigger than a standard cigarette lighter plug. See page 8 of http://files.acco.com/KENSINGTON/K33197/K33197-24456.pdf You have to examine & use these to appreciate how good they are. The ARINC plug to socket connection doesn't get hot - even at 11 Amps. The cigarette plug is one of the better quality cigarette plugs I've used as well. Since I already have seven of these little adapters - I'm not out anything to clip the ends off my son's DVD player and my Garmin GPS cable and replace them with ARINC 628 plugs. Once I do - I'll have reliable connections 90% of the time, and "no worse" than the status quo the remaining 10% of the time (by using the adapters in rental cars.) You should probably examine one of these connectors before you rant about them. These are standardized gold plated pins - comparable to Mil-Spec connectors. It's an "open standard" so they are all compatible. Compare that to the wide variety and different qualities of cigarette lighter plugs. The cigarette plugs on my $2,400 Garmin GPS are a joke by comparison! I'm not saying you should "replace" the cigarette lighter sockets in your plane or car with these, but it certainly couldn't hurt to add some ARINC 628 sockets. The smart design of them makes them far superior to cigarette sockets and plugs! The connections are small, and you can place a neat little row of them in a third the space of comparable cigarette outlets. I had previously written a question to this list seeking the part number for the EmPower socket. I never received an answer on the list, but I eventually found the answer myself. This post was just a followup so others could benefit by knowing that the part is an ARINC 628 "Part 2" power socket. Once I found the specs for that part, then it only made sense to pass along that the current limitations of 8 to 10 Amps. The "PowerLet" outlets are for higher amperage devices. Specifically it's for the electrically heated socks, vests, gloves, etc.. that my friends wear in their open cockpit plane. Since most of those garments come from motorcycle shops, it's a good bet that they will either come with, or be offered with, the "BMW style" plugs. If you've got a plane that could benefit from electrically heated socks, blankets, gloves, etc.. then you might want to know where to get PowerLet (aka BMW style) power outlets. These are ideal for applications over 10 Amps - or for heated clothing in general. I don't think too many of us will be putting them in our cars though ;-) Because they make these for the motorcycle crowd - the outlets are usually stylish and weatherproof. They are also designed to be operated with one hand. Anyway - those were the choices that I found. YMMV. If you're happy with the cigarette lighter plugs - then keep on plugging! If you want a more reliable and compact solution, try some ARINC 628 connectors. I'll be in the garage soldering on the ARINC 628 connectors ;-) Greg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:22 AM PST US From: "Larry L. Tompkins, P.E." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 Bob, Thank you for your reply. I have determined that a tail installation (as suggested by another lister) is less pratical because of accessability than a wing location. I WILL have to take the strobe power cable within two feet of the magnetometer. The cable that was supplied for the high voltage power from the power pack to the flasher is a 3 conductor shielded cable. The wires are supply ground and trigger. The following information was ink-stamped on the cable jacket: Manhattan/CDT P/N M13227 E120910 3/C 22 AWG 60C (UL) Typer CM OR AWM 2093 LL 41103 CSA TYPE CMG It doesn't seem to me that a 3 conductor cable can be a "twisted pair." Is there something else I should be using? Is it possible to shield the strobe cable locally where it is whithin 24" of the magnetometer? Thank you, Larry ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:26 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source In a message dated 5/2/2007 11:12:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, rcitjh@aol.com writes: More detail on the TT standby would help. Could you add a definition for this dummy? What is a TT? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:18 PM PST US From: Michael Ice Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source Bob, I think, TT, stands for TrueTrak. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source > > > In a message dated 5/2/2007 11:12:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > rcitjh@aol.com writes: > > More detail on the TT standby would help. > > > Could you add a definition for this dummy? What is a TT? > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503 > > > > ************************************** See what's free at > http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:05 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magnetometer Location in RV-7 At 11:34 AM 5/2/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Bob, > >Thank you for your reply. I have determined that a tail installation (as >suggested by another lister) is less pratical because of accessability >than a wing location. I WILL have to take the strobe power cable within >two feet of the magnetometer. The cable that was supplied for the high >voltage power from the power pack to the flasher is a 3 conductor shielded >cable. The wires are supply ground and trigger. > >The following information was ink-stamped on the cable jacket: > >Manhattan/CDT P/N M13227 E120910 3/C 22 AWG >60C (UL) Typer CM OR AWM 2093 LL 41103 CSA TYPE CMG > This is no doubt the grey, twisted trio with an aluminum foil shield and drain wire. This is the stuff shipped with strobe kits for about 40 years. >It doesn't seem to me that a 3 conductor cable can be a "twisted >pair." Is there something else I should be using? Is it possible to >shield the strobe cable locally where it is whithin 24" of the magnetometer? "Twisted pair" is like calling all copy machines "Xerox". Twisting is a generic process that applies to ANY number of wires that are either potential victims for MAGNETICALLY coupled noise pickup or potential antagonists for noise radiation to other wires. Adding the "Beldfoil" shield over this grouping of wires breaks a tiny CAPACITIVELY coupled noise component from the trigger wire. You can run this cable right past the magnetometer with zero risk of interfering with the magnetometer. The MAGIC that happens when using this cable demands that no grounds be attached to airframe at the wing tip. Make connections only to the three wires at the strobe lamp fixture. Leave the shield ground open at the lamp. Connect the three wires to the appropriate three pins at the power supply and connect the shield ground to the strobe supply case mounting screw. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:05 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source From: "Jekyll" aurbo(at)ak.net wrote: > Jekyll, > > Off subject but: Do you know if the TT ADI battery is being charged while it is on regular ships power? > > Mike Ice > > --- Not flying yet but, I've been told is does. Jekyll Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110482#110482 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:01 PM PST US From: Sam Marlow Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dual power source Sound like a good idea. Thanks Jekyll wrote: > > Sam: > > More detail on the TT standby would help. TT has a battery pack for the ADI that comes with a spify miniature switch with an LED at the end to indicate when it's on battery power. You hook the battery power lead to the bus or busses of your choice. The battery comes with a prewired connector with a power lead for the ADI. You need a ground from both the ADI and the batter connector. ADI source power is controlled from the switch; one position sends ship power to the ADI and the other position sends battery power to the ADI. Preflight checks are as simple as flipping the switch and checking continued operation. Annual maintenance consists of running the ADI on battery power to ensure it runs for at least 60 minutes. It's well integrated with the ADI but is a bit dear at $100. > > Jekyll > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=110441#110441 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:41 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL INDEPENDENT POWER SUPPLY Bob, I have been guilty of asking a lot of questions before reading your files and thanks to Gilles, Ken and yourself for the advice and patience. Your files are a gold mine of good engineering design. My project is for conversion of a Quickie Q-200 with Jab 3300 single phase PM alternator and a regulator like the SD-8 setup to make a safe dual independent power supply ready for an EFI conversion. The original Quickie circuit has no relays and protection is by fuses to each connection and the DPST master switch which isolates battery from alternator from bus. Z-25 covers everything I think I need except for the dual independent source for the ebus. For this I have copied a practice I have seen here in Oz which I understand is approved by CASA as a dual independent power supply by taking the centre tap from two diodes back to back and I have shown the setup at the bottom of Z-25 following. I have also included an over current module "A" which I had from another installation. (Gilles has pointed out that either the fusible link or the OCM is redundant). The ebus feed that I have shown here is I think similar to what you have done in Z-19 note 24. I want to keep the thing as simple as possible and have left the SPDT master switch but would use a relay if you advise. I would welcome your advice on the merits of fusible links vs CB which reset or can be reset, and whether you think the OCM is worth keeping, or if you see something wrong with the diagram. Thanks Peter. 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