---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/07/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:57 AM - Re: Two Txrs on one antenna (get simple) () 2. 06:39 AM - Flap Seals (Fergus Kyle) 3. 06:53 AM - Re: Wiring for HID lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:29 AM - Re: Wiring for HID lights (Rob Turk) 5. 08:16 AM - Broken Battery (Charles Brame) 6. 10:00 AM - Re: Broken Battery (Carlos Trigo) 7. 12:24 PM - Re: Broken Battery (Ron Quillin) 8. 02:19 PM - Re: Broken Battery (Kevin Horton) 9. 02:31 PM - FW: BASIC DUAL INDEPENDENT POWER SUPPLY (Peter Harris) 10. 06:07 PM - Low Voltage Light Flashing (Duane Bentley) 11. 06:34 PM - Re: Low Voltage Light Flashing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 07:29 PM - Re: Broken Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 07:32 PM - Re: Fuselink for battery master/ alt field (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 07:35 PM - Re: Crimp on terminals (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:41 PM - Re: curious questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:35 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Two Txrs on one antenna (get simple) >From: "Fergus Kyle" >Subject: Two Txrs on one antenna > >I've been following the discussion regarding running two >transceivers on one coax line......... some very enlightening >opinions! For gosh sakes JUST put a second antenna on like everyone else. It will cost you a whopping 0.25 mph at 200 mph, 0.02 mph at 200 mph. I think you can live with the drag. Relays? Brother, just stop the madness and follow the normal method, two antennas for two transmitters. There are transmitter splitters and they are expensive, way more than a used bent whip by a large factor. I recall the commercial tx splitter relay cost about $300-$400. It makes a used bent whip on eBay for $60 sound pretty good. You will also have better performance. Look I fly B767 and B757's. They have an antenna for each radio. I have flown 100's of planes in my flying career from just about every Cessna and Piper GA plane, several bizz jets, regional and large jet airliners. THEY ALL HAD ONE ANTENNA PER. Why make it complicated? The Professor, Geroge atp/cfi-ii-me, b757/76, RV-7 PS: If you want to just receive consider a small rubber ducky in the cockpit area to reduce that whopping 1/10 mph drag. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:23 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Seals Cheers, I believe I saw a successful gap seal project on a Europa at S'nF several years ago - so the idea isn't new. Nevertheless, I think it more successful on hinged surfaces such as airlerons and rudder, where through-slot flow is not expected. Slotted flaps need slots Ferg Kyle Europa A064 914 Classic ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring for HID lights At 11:33 AM 5/6/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Gang: > >I am planning on HID lights for my plane. The specs say that they draw >about 10 amps for starting and then 3.5 amps while running steady >state. Must I choose the wire size for the short duration load or can I >size for the long duration load, or maybe split the difference? The runs >are long, since the lights are in the tips and the ballasts are only a >foot or so inboard. The "stock" automotive installation comes with 15 amp >in-line fuses. Short duration loads of 4x the "normal" value for the circuit does not endanger wires. However, depending on the dynamics of the HID fixture, an "inrush" of say 1 second will nuisance trip a 5A fuse. Given the very small weight differences, combined with our OBAM aviation design goal: "Tho shalt suffer no nuisance trips of any circuit protection in thy aircraft", I think I'd go with AWG16/10A for the wire/fuse combination in this instance. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:07 AM PST US From: "Rob Turk" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring for HID lights Add to this that thiner wire may not burn up, but it may cause enough voltage drop at inrush current that the HID fails to trigger.. Bob's AWG16 sounds good. Rob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring for HID lights > > > At 11:33 AM 5/6/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >>Gang: >> >>I am planning on HID lights for my plane. The specs say that they draw >>about 10 amps for starting and then 3.5 amps while running steady state. >>Must I choose the wire size for the short duration load or can I size for >>the long duration load, or maybe split the difference? The runs are long, >>since the lights are in the tips and the ballasts are only a foot or so >>inboard. The "stock" automotive installation comes with 15 amp in-line >>fuses. > > Short duration loads of 4x the "normal" value > for the circuit does not endanger wires. However, > depending on the dynamics of the HID fixture, an > "inrush" of say 1 second will nuisance trip a 5A > fuse. Given the very small weight differences, > combined with our OBAM aviation design goal: > "Tho shalt suffer no nuisance trips of any > circuit protection in thy aircraft", I think > I'd go with AWG16/10A for the wire/fuse > combination in this instance. > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) > ( what ever you do must be exercised ) > ( EVERY day . . . ) > ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) > ---------------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:06 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: Broken Battery > Time: 10:09:06 PM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Broken Battery > > > At 02:45 PM 5/6/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > >> PC-680: $84.29 from Batteries 4 Everything. >> >> Website: >> https:// >> www.batteries4everything.com/index.html >> >> Click on Products, Scroll down and click on: Odyssey, Hawker, Cyclon, >> Genesis Batteries, Next page click on: Odyssey, Next page click >> on: PC680. >> >> I'm sure shipping to Australia is expensive, but shouldn't be >> outrageous. >> Outfit is very responsive and ships quickly in the States. >> >> For the record, my PC-680 is approaching 5 years old, still holds >> a 12.8 >> volt charge indefinitely, spins the engine quickly and returns to >> a full >> charge within moments of turning on the alternator. It sat on a >> bench with >> no charger for nearly a year and still had over 12 volts charge. I >> do keep >> a quality charger on it now for extended down times. >> > > Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the > alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently? > > Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Bob, Not sure how to do a cap check, so, no, I haven't done one. My system is your On a Budget plan (Z-13? - my 'Connection book and schematics are at the hangar.) I do have an SD-8 backup alternator. I haven't flown yet, but anticipate doing so in the next couple of weeks. I will install a new battery before doing any night or IFR work. That will be sometime after I fly off the test hours. Thanks for the input. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio ------------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:21 AM PST US From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Broken Battery > > Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the > alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently? > > Bob . . . > What is to "cap-check" a battery? Carlos ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Broken Battery From: Ron Quillin At 09:28 5/7/2007, you wrote: > > >> Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the >> alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently? >> Bob . . . > >What is to "cap-check" a battery? I would think that would be the capacity check. A detailed procedure, similar to a load test, and commonly found in the ICAW (Instructions for Continuing Air Worthiness) section of the battery manual for certified products. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:28 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Broken Battery On 7 May 2007, at 12:28, Carlos Trigo wrote: > > >> Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the >> alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently? >> Bob . . . > > What is to "cap-check" a battery? See Bob Nuckolls' article on one way to do a capacity check: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/battest.pdf Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:17 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: FW: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL INDEPENDENT POWER SUPPLY Bob disregard my question about the self excitation feature, now I understand how it works. (slow to catch on due to aging brain syndrome) Thanks for your help . Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Harris Sent: Monday, 7 May 2007 4:18 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL INDEPENDENT POWER SUPPLY Bob, thanks I see now that battery capacity design and maintenance will do the job the simplest way. Yes I do have a Magellan 315 and it is loaded with bush air strips as well as regular airports. I am not sure if I understand what the self excitation feature is contributing, do we need it here? Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, 7 May 2007 4:02 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: BASIC DUAL INDEPENDENT POWER SUPPLY At 07:13 AM 5/5/2007 +1000, you wrote: > > >Bob, >The EFI including pump, ECU and injectors together with his main bus radio >and instruments is using 4A according to advice from the guy who engineered >this simple single body TBI system. (I don't have a figure for the separate >ebus draw for the EFI so you would need to discount for radio and >instruments)I could also run the electronic ignition module and ignition >coil for additional ebus current I guessed 4A but it would probably be less. >I am using a Bosch HE coil. >Alternative landing sites are up to 1hr apart. The endurance is 41/2HRS. >Thanks >Peter So how much batter-only endurance are you designing for? What plans are you making for preventative maintenance to make sure that design goals slip for lack of due diligence in maintenance? Assuming you're considering a battery capacity on the order of the popular 3 x 6 x 7 inch form-factor, a 4A load on a new battery will give you just over two hours of operation assuming that nothing in your system gives up above 10.5 volts. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/17AH_Capcity_vs_Load.gif Here we see that a 17 ah battery will carry 4A for about 3 hours. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/28AH_12V_Capacity_vs_Load.gif To go out for duration of fuel aboard, you'll need to upsize to the 28 ah critter for an increase to something on the order of 360 minutes or 6 hours. It's my recommendation that you consider z21 posted at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z21A.pdf Stuff needed to keep the engine running should run from the battery bus and be switched by their own power switches SEPARATE from DC power management for the rest of the airplane. You don't need the diodes. A battery does not fail in a manner that takes the rest of the system down. Tying the alternator directly to the battery al-la Z13/8 lets you load-shed the main bus plus contactor and run only battery bus + ebus loads. Even the e-bus can be shed if desired. I presume you're planning on carrying flight-bag backups for the panel mounted hardware like http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Misc/Failure_Tolerance.pdf This architecture meets the design goals of dual supplies for keeping the engine lit up. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:33 PM PST US From: "Duane Bentley" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage Light Flashing Bob, I need some advice. I have a B&C L-60 alternator on my RV6. I also have the B&C LR3C-14 voltage regulator. They both have about 3 years of flight time, 225 hrs, trouble free. On a flight tonight, the low voltage light came on and stayed flashing. The panel gages show I've got 12.6 volts and 0 amps - nothing charging the battery. After shutdown, I've checked fuses, and connectors and found nothing wrong. With the engine shut down and the Master and Alternator switches on, I have 12 volts out at the alternator wire "B" (output), and 1.75 volts at the field connector to the alternator. I've pulled the alternator off, assuming I need to send it back to B&C. Any suggestions before I do so? Thanks Duane Bentley RV6 N515DB West Chester, OH ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low Voltage Light Flashing At 09:06 PM 5/7/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Bob, > > >I need some advice. I have a B&C L-60 alternator on my RV6. I also have >the B&C LR3C-14 voltage regulator. They both have about 3 years of flight >time, 225 hrs, trouble free. On a flight tonight, the low voltage light >came on and stayed flashing. The panel gages show I ve got 12.6 volts and >0 amps nothing charging the battery. After shutdown, I ve checked fuses, >and connectors and found nothing wrong. With the engine shut down and the >Master and Alternator switches on, I have 12 volts out at the alternator >wire B (output), and 1.75 volts at the field connector to the alternator. > > >I ve pulled the alternator off, assuming I need to send it back to >B&C. Any suggestions before I do so? Sure, send the regulator back. The data you've supplied suggests that the alternator is probably okay and the regulator has failed. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:32 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Broken Battery >> Do you depend on this battery as a backup to the >> alternator? If so, have you cap-checked it recently? >> >> Bob . . . > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- > >Bob, > >Not sure how to do a cap check, so, no, I haven't done one. > >My system is your On a Budget plan (Z-13? - my 'Connection book and >schematics are at the hangar.) I do have an SD-8 backup alternator. > >I haven't flown yet, but anticipate doing so in the next couple of >weeks. I will install a new battery before doing any night or IFR >work. That will be sometime after I fly off the test hours. > >Thanks for the input. > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB >San Antonio Hmmmm . . . okay. You won't need to depend on the battery for endurance if you have an SD-8 as the second source of engine driven power. With two alternators, you can consider running the ship's battery until it simply doesn't crank the engine any more. Cap-check is a capacity test. Something that everyone who depends on the battery for alternator out, e-bus support should do. The battery will get replaced before it fails to crank the engine any more. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuselink for battery master/ alt field At 06:03 PM 5/1/2007 -0700, you wrote: >'Lectric Listers: > >I had to fun of attending Bob's seminar recently in Winterville, NC. Great >time, I learned a tremendous amount. > >My wiring is pretty much straight Z-11, except I am using Plane Power's >internally regulated alternator. > >The diagram shows a 22AWG fuselink off the main buss lead powering the >alternater field through the batt/alt master swith (Z-11). The alt field >is further protected with a 5A pullable breaker between the switch and the >alternator. The note I scribbled down is that the fuselink is there in >addition to the CB to allow the Plane Power's crowbar protection module to >do its job (which, as I understand it, is to cause an instant ground fault >upon overvoltage, thereby forcing the breaker to trip). I suppose the >fuselink also protects the wire between the main buss and the switch. > >I asked the guys at Plane Power's booth at SNF to explain further, but >they felt that the fuselink was not necessary. > >Standing by for my lesson. Thanks, Any time you hook a small (read easily smoked) wire to a bus (read many hundreds of amps of potential fault current) you provide a means by which that run of wire is protected. Since we need a 5A breaker to support design goals for the crowbar OV protection system, then the breaker will be remotely mounted from the fuse bus and the chunk of wire between the bus and the breaker falls into the category cited above. It takes a HUSKY fuse to stay close during the faulting of a 5A breaker . . . hence the fusible link which is indeed in the "husky" class of circuit protection like it's giant cousins, the ANL current limiters. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimp on terminals At 08:53 AM 4/14/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > >Is it a good idea to "tin" wire ends with a little solder before using crimp >on terminals for D miniature connectors, or not? > >Grant Neilson >RV9A, finishing Doesn't help a thing. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( IF one aspires to be "world class", ) ( what ever you do must be exercised ) ( EVERY day . . . ) ( R. L. Nuckolls III ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:26 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: curious questions At 07:33 AM 4/14/2007 -0800, you wrote: >Hello, > >A friend of mine that occasionally helps me work on my RV-9 has asked me >some questions that I can't answer satisfactorily. He is a great guy and >has a very curious mind, he owns and works on boats, cars, etc, but >doesn't have a history with aircraft. These are the questions in his own >words posted below. Any help will be gratefully accepted. > > >In the course of helping a friend construct an RV 9 I had the opportunity >to examine the electrical system design. I was puzzled at the use of a >master relay (solenoid) to switch the entire electrical system. A number >of questions occurred to me regarding this design:o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> > > The questions: How much amperage draw does the solenoid consume simply > being energized? At what voltage does the Solenoid release? And why this > design? This is a topic rich in prior conversation and posted articles. See: http://aeroelectric.com put "battery contactor" in the search engine box and click on "Google Search" You'll get 25-30 hits on this topic that I believe will touch on all of the points/questions in your posting. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.