Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:46 AM - Re: Avionics Master (Dear Chuck) ()
3. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) (Ernest Christley)
4. 09:19 AM - Panel Update (Edward Christian)
5. 09:35 AM - Alternator Cut-In (Edward Christian)
6. 10:10 AM - GS-Air Tech Manual (Dennis Johnson)
7. 12:03 PM - Avionics install supplies on ebay (Dr. Andrew Elliott)
8. 01:38 PM - Starter Wiring (Peter Pengilly)
9. 02:28 PM - Re: Starter Wiring (Michael Ice)
10. 07:48 PM - Re: Starter Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:25 PM - Re: Alternator Cut-In (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:34 PM - 5 Volt Dimmer (Don Vs)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) |
>
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
>Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:55 PM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; gmvouga@hotmail.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be)
>
>Greg if you want a avionic master switch
>by golly PUT ONE IN, and be proud and
>happy, because it will work just like you
>think it will and know you like.
>
>After you plow thru all the required reading
>and "data" which is really an elaborate opinion
>dressed up with a bunch of gobbly-gook,
>bottom line its your choice and yours alone.
"Required"??? What's required of anyone
and who has taken it upon themselves to
levy such requirements? Please define
"gobbly-gook", is that a scientific term?
>Bob has good points, but there not all
>quintessential or relevant. For examples
>some modern avionics, like the very popular
>excellent Icom A200 com radio needs to be
>OFF during start! So does my old Collins
>transponder. You can use the little volume/off
>switch or mode switch and turn them on and
>off individually, but it's a pain. Bob may call
>for Icom's head and berate them for their
>design, but he is not going to buy you a new
>Icom when it fries. If you insist on leaving
>avionics on during start it could happen. By
>the way the ICOM A200 is an awesome
>radio and a super value, recommend.
Who has called for anyone's head? You
mis-represent or have mis-understood what
I've suggested. Are you asserting that
an Icom subjected to the normal, documented
and expected voltage excursions associated
with starting an engine is at risk for a
failure that generates a maintenance event?
Hmmm . . . In keeping with your understanding
of how the Icom is designed, should you also
turn it off if you're getting ready to turn
on an air conditioner compressor drive motor or
perhaps lower gear with a hydraulic pump
driven with a PM motor?
Icom is (or in my personal experience
at least was) the acknowledged leader in
operational quality of their radios. But does
this fact give them license to toss off
a rudimentary operating feature that the
vast majority of suppliers to aviation know
about, understand and embrace in the design
of their products? Are you certain that
Icom has assumed that license and chooses
admonish customers to pamper products that
suffer from rudimentary design deficiencies?
>One big fat beautiful avionics master
>switch is nice. You can of course avoid
>single point failure several ways. I
>think the e-bus will do it, or two
>switches in parallel, even a single
>throw, double pole switch would do it.
>Chance is the master switch will never
>fail, and once you throw that switch on
>its not going to fail, my opinion. Are
>you flying IFR at 18,000 ft or day/night
>vfr. Just use good old common sense.
If one has an E-bus with two feed paths,
the issue does not pivot on the probability
of failure for any single switch.
>I sometimes disagree with Bob and this is
>one of them. This is one of those topics
>Bob has a very strong opinion on, emphasis
>on opinion, but don't let any one tell you what
>to do when it comes down to preference,
>which this is.
I've told nobody to do anything. I've offered
design goals and backed them up with a recitation
of the underlying simple ideas and 46 years
of first hand design experience, customer service
and observation of the marketplace. You sir have
yet to support any assertions with an understanding
of either physics, fact or experience as a professional
>All you have to know is there is NOT a good
>reason for leaving an avionics master switch
>out of your panel. If that is what you want, it's
>very simple, you want it, put it in. It's common
>and useful even today.
And if you'd properly quoted me you would have
acknowledged the many times I've written as follows:
". . . if one wants an "avionics master" it could be
a switch in series with the diode . . . which prevents
problems from inadvertent switch operation. You still
have a backup from the alternate feed path which can
be used for either loss of main path -OR- provides
power when you've shut the main bus down after an
alternator system failure."
>Is opinion & preference not safety, end of story.
>
>Here is another professional opinion:
>
><http://avionicswest.com/articles.htm>http://avionicswest.com/articles.htm
An excellent recitation of dogma supported
by not one citation of fact in the physics
of anyone's design or the willingness of
manufacturer's to sign up to the best we know
how to do. I had lunch with a customer yesterday
to talk about pitch trim and flap actuation
systems for a new airplane. These will be processor
driven and have a lot of new features designed
to increase ride comfort and reduce pilot workload.
Neither of these designs will require operator
intervention to drag it back out of the
weeds or prevent damage due to a brown-out event
whether driven by and engine-start or any other
condition. The addition of these features will be
totally transparent to the pilot and passengers . . .
an expression and production of the best we know
how to do. Achieving this design goal adds less than
1% to cost of bill of materials and about the same to
the software task. I.e, it's easy to do so why not
do it?
>Good Luck, and don't over think it and
>use the KISS principle.
>George ATP/CFI-II-ME/MSME
Gee George, we wouldn't want to think about
it too much would we? I agree that thinking
without striving for understanding is
a waste of one's time. Hundreds of thousands
of airplanes have been built and flown
without burdening the pilots with a suggestion
that they understand how the electrical system
works . . . and the vast majority of those pilots
lived to a ripe old age. But from time to time,
one of those pilots (and the publisher of some
magazine) believes that a certain amount of
thinking would be useful . . . so we get the
dark-n-stormy night story that adds no understanding
but offers something to think about.
There are, no doubt, forums where dogma is
preached and thinking for understanding is not
promoted . . . that just happens not to be
what goes on in this forum.
Bob . . .
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Avionics Master (Dear Chuck) |
No Chuck:
You do mis-understand.
If YOU want an avionics master, regardless of any ones
opinion (any one), mine, Bob's, Avionics West, than put
one in (period end of story). Read all opinions, yes, but
make your own mind up. That is the message. (END)
**************************************************************
You quoted Avionics West as some kind of Gotch-A?
>"The most valuable quote from the article comes
>light of your castigating Bob for espousing
>"opinions", and I quote from your definitive."
"Modern avionics" and KX-155 and DME in the same
sentence is kind of funny, I'd have to agree. The KX-
155 has been around for +20 years, and likely does not
have a filtered DO-160 spec power supply, don't know
just guessing. Again DO-160 or not doesn't matter. If
you want your avionics master switch put it in. Also DO-
160 does not mean your unit complies. Avionics are
software driven as you, so they my re-boot during start.
During start you can get below 10 volts and not even
DO-160 will save the day and keep it running, so it will
reboot any way. Might as well turn it off? May be one
conclusion.
Also I'm not saying the Avionics West reference was
handed down from upon high on stone tablets & better
than Bob's opinion. That's ridiculous, especially with this
semi-trivial topic. The point was showing another
"professionals opinion" who works on and around
avionics everyday and puts value on the avionics
switch. Do you have have a man crush on Bob or
something. That is cool, he's your hero, mine to.
(joke - laugh)
I do think Bob's point is salient and valid however not
quintessential and possibly irrelevant. His main
argument is "modern radios" don't mind being on during
start. Well that is not universal, and that's was my point,
a valid and good point, I don't mind saying. It's not a
Gotch-A on Bob. He is right, avionics switches are not
required. That is a true statement, and it has always
been true, because radios usually have there own on/off
switch.
Last, this is FOR FUN and learning. Don't take it too
serious. Listen to all opinion and respect all opinions.
No one is saying any one is wrong, out of line or one
opinion is better. It's just a freaking avionics switch, A
SWITCH, not rocket science or a Moon shot. Nuff said.
Enjoyed your analysis and nit picking (joke - laugh)
George ATP/CFI-II-ME/MSME
do not archive
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (to
>From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
>
>George,
>
>The most valuable quote from the article comes in
>light of your castigating Bob for espousing "opinions",
>and I quote from your definitive reference:
>
>In summary, if you have modern avionics such as
>KX-155s, Loran, DMEs, GPS, fuel flows and sorts,
>then in my opinion an avionics master is a must.
>(emphasis and underline, mine).
>
>If I understand correctly, you are casting aspersions
>on Bob's opinion....with another opinion; from
>someone who we don't know and have no
>understanding of their CV, if any. Very interesting.
>
>Chuck Jensen
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) |
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>> gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
>>
>> After you plow thru all the required reading
>> and "data" which is really an elaborate opinion
>> dressed up with a bunch of gobbly-gook,
>> bottom line its your choice and yours alone.
>
> "Required"??? What's required of anyone
> and who has taken it upon themselves to
> levy such requirements?
Bob, I've seen this sort of response to your writings quite often.
While I think I understand your intent, I think other people really want
some authority to tell them what to do. If all else fails, they will
find one where none exists. I think you should carry a signature along
the lines of, "I strive to be a teacher, not your mother. I only have
suggestions, not directives."
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I would like some input on a Panel Update I am about to embark on.
I have a VFR RV-6 with 0-360 with 2 mags and Vacuum System
Looking to update Aircraft to "modified" Z-13/8 All Electric Plane.
Modifications are as follows:
1. Keep basic Mags - no pMags
2. Basic 35amp automotive alternator plus SD-8 as shown
New electric requirements would be:
Dynon D10A or D-100
Garmin 300XL GPS/Comm
King KT-76 Transponder
FlightCom 403 Intercom
Ameri-King AK350 Encoder
Keep basic steam gauges as back up - Altimeter, A/S, VVi, and Wing
Leveler
Flaps
Land Lights
Taxi Lights
Strobe Lights
Pos Lights
Cockpit lights
Instrument lights
Fuel Guage
Hobbs
Trim - elevator only
Keep basic engine instrument or update to Grand Rapids EIS or Rocky
Mountain 101K
Otherwise, everything done in accordance with Z-13/8
Suggestions?
Ed
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Alternator Cut-In |
I have an alternator from Mark Landoll - 35 amp variety with external
regulator mounted on back.
It does not come on until approx. 1500 rpm on initial start-up and
then will stay on all the way till idle - what causes this and how
can I modify so it will come on as soon as AC is started?
Thanks,
Ed
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | GS-Air Tech Manual |
Hi Chris,
The GS-Air Technical Information Manual that I printed out doesn't seem
to be on the GS-Air website anymore. I'm sure he will send it to you if
you email him; customer support has always been outstanding. The full
title for the version I have is:
GS-AIR
Technical Information Manual
LED-001, LED-002, LED-003
LED-Based Position and Landing Light Systems
With Reference to FAR 23.1383 - 23.1397
However, here's one I found Googling:
http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Safety/LED_Position_Lights/LEDtechnical/le
dtechnical.html
that seems to have similar info.
Good luck,
Dennis Johnson
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Avionics install supplies on ebay |
Well, about two weeks ago I put in request for information about a
connector for a Narco transponder. I got one useful reply from Bob, but
only for a similar replacement for the 18-hole, single-row Molex type KK
edge connectors, which are still used in a lot of video games, and are
available from jammaboards.com.
I also contacted Narco about getting an "official" installation kit,
which they would be happy to sell me for only $81.77, and doesn't even
include the female BNC pigtail, for which they want an extra $123.60!
Anyway, after checking ebay on and off, I discovered someone selling the
*exact* connector (no longer produced, BTW) I needed for $20, including
the contactors. I'll pick up the unusual BNC tray connector and
antenna from the Lane-Pilot-Store for about $20 each, also on ebay and a
very good source for non-NARCO avionics installation supplies.
Not bad.
Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ
N601GE (reserved)
601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building...
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Dear All,
I am building a One Design and am striving for the lightest possible
weight while maintaining acceptable (to me) levels of safety. I have
researched the wiring of the starter and admit to a certain amount of
confusion as to why a relay is used to switch the current to the
starter. I have researched the subject quite extensively and would
appreciate your comments on the following.
The goals are light weight, simplicity and reliability (probably means
minimum number of components). I am not prepared to fly without a
starter. I will be using a starter button and two independent mag
switches (both ignition systems on during cranking) and a permanent
magnet type starter.
Allow me to summarise what I understand the issues are, and describe
what I intend to do. The "conventional" system where a relay on the
firewall is used to switch the thick wire to the starter is not too bad
a system, but there is a risk that the contacts weld themselves together
(and hence the British authorities require the installation of a
'starter warning light' - an led on the switched side of the relay). The
installation of a diode is recommended (still can't remember why). There
is also the possibility that once the starter button is released the
starter motor will become a generator and cause the motor mounted
solenoid to remain engaged for a short time - apparently not too good in
the long run for the starter. It also seems to me that using a jumper
from the starter feed to the solenoid is a bit daft, the starter has to
have a solenoid so why not use it?
If the firewall relay is deleted and the starter button is used to
actuate the motor mounted solenoid the button is subject to high in-rush
currents (~35A) and up to 10A of steady current, values that may require
a very heavy duty starter button, or the average starter button may have
a rather short life. But this way the starter warning light is not
needed - I don't know exactly what it is, but I really don't want one of
these lights (I never look at the one currently fitted to my current
aircraft).
The firewall relay could be retained, and the 4th terminal used to
switch the solenoid, but I'm not sure this really buys you very much
over the conventional set up.
The final set up is to run the starter feed directly from the master
relay (I really don't think it matters that this wire will be 'hot' all
the time that the master is on), and to use a relay to switch the
solenoid only. As I already have a 200+A rated relay I might as well use
that, or I could go to the local auto parts store and get one of those
plastic cube relays rated at 40A (assuming one is available). As I'm not
switching 200+ amps with the relay I won't need a starter warning light
(hooray), the starter button is only switching a few amps, I'm using the
solenoid for what its meant to do, I will only have to terminated the
minimum number of thick connections and I won't need any diodes. Seems
to me like a winner - so what have I overlooked?
Comments welcome.
Peter
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Starter Wiring |
Peter,
Check the archives for, contactor, relay or solenoid. I am sure your questions
have been answered many times.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Wiring
> Dear All,
>
> I am building a One Design and am striving for the lightest possible
> weight while maintaining acceptable (to me) levels of safety. I have
> researched the wiring of the starter and admit to a certain amount of
> confusion as to why a relay is used to switch the current to the
> starter. I have researched the subject quite extensively and would
> appreciate your comments on the following.
>
> The goals are light weight, simplicity and reliability (probably means
> minimum number of components). I am not prepared to fly without a
> starter. I will be using a starter button and two independent mag
> switches (both ignition systems on during cranking) and a permanent
> magnet type starter.
>
> Allow me to summarise what I understand the issues are, and describe
> what I intend to do. The "conventional" system where a relay on the
> firewall is used to switch the thick wire to the starter is not
> too bad
> a system, but there is a risk that the contacts weld themselves
> together(and hence the British authorities require the
> installation of a
> 'starter warning light' - an led on the switched side of the
> relay). The
> installation of a diode is recommended (still can't remember why).
> Thereis also the possibility that once the starter button is
> released the
> starter motor will become a generator and cause the motor mounted
> solenoid to remain engaged for a short time - apparently not too
> good in
> the long run for the starter. It also seems to me that using a jumper
> from the starter feed to the solenoid is a bit daft, the starter
> has to
> have a solenoid so why not use it?
>
> If the firewall relay is deleted and the starter button is used to
> actuate the motor mounted solenoid the button is subject to high
> in-rush
> currents (~35A) and up to 10A of steady current, values that may
> requirea very heavy duty starter button, or the average starter
> button may have
> a rather short life. But this way the starter warning light is not
> needed - I don't know exactly what it is, but I really don't want
> one of
> these lights (I never look at the one currently fitted to my current
> aircraft).
>
> The firewall relay could be retained, and the 4th terminal used to
> switch the solenoid, but I'm not sure this really buys you very much
> over the conventional set up.
>
> The final set up is to run the starter feed directly from the master
> relay (I really don't think it matters that this wire will be
> 'hot' all
> the time that the master is on), and to use a relay to switch the
> solenoid only. As I already have a 200+A rated relay I might as
> well use
> that, or I could go to the local auto parts store and get one of those
> plastic cube relays rated at 40A (assuming one is available). As
> I'm not
> switching 200+ amps with the relay I won't need a starter warning
> light(hooray), the starter button is only switching a few amps,
> I'm using the
> solenoid for what its meant to do, I will only have to terminated the
> minimum number of thick connections and I won't need any diodes. Seems
> to me like a winner - so what have I overlooked?
>
> Comments welcome.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Starter Wiring |
At 09:36 PM 5/16/2007 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>
<snip>
Allow me to summarise what I understand the issues are, and describe what I
intend to do. The conventional system where a relay on the firewall is
used to switch the thick wire to the starter is not too bad a system, but
there is a risk that the contacts weld themselves together (and hence the
British authorities require the installation of a starter warning light
an led on the switched side of the relay).
EVERY contactor, whether built onto the starter or
added piggy-back as shown in the Z-figures is subject
to contact sticking. The warning light is a good
thing to consider no matter which contactor actually
does the task of controlling starter current.
The installation of a diode is recommended (still cant remember why).
See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf
There is also the possibility that once the starter button is released the
starter motor will become a generator and cause the motor mounted solenoid
to remain engaged for a short time apparently not too good in the long
run for the starter. It also seems to me that using a jumper from the
starter feed to the solenoid is a bit daft, the starter has to have a
solenoid so why not use it?
See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
If the firewall relay is deleted and the starter button is used to actuate
the motor mounted solenoid the button is subject to high in-rush currents
(~35A) and up to 10A of steady current, values that may require a very
heavy duty starter button, or the average starter button may have a rather
short life. But this way the starter warning light is not needed I dont
know exactly what it is, but I really dont want one of these lights (I
never look at the one currently fitted to my current aircraft).
"Need" is a matter of perceptions but no contactor
is immune from sticking. Treat this as you wish for
the decision as to whether or not a starter engaged
warning light is to be a part of your system.
The firewall relay could be retained, and the 4th terminal used to switch
the solenoid, but Im not sure this really buys you very much over the
conventional set up.
Either works.
The final set up is to run the starter feed directly from the master relay
(I really dont think it matters that this wire will be hot all the time
that the master is on), and to use a relay to switch the solenoid only.
This is illustrated in: Figure Z-22 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
As I already have a 200+A rated relay I might as well use that, or I
could go to the local auto parts store and get one of those plastic cube
relays rated at 40A (assuming one is available). As Im not switching 200+
amps with the relay I wont need a starter warning light (hooray), the
starter button is only switching a few amps, Im using the solenoid for
what its meant to do, I will only have to terminated the minimum number of
thick connections and I wont need any diodes. Seems to me like a winner
so what have I overlooked?
The diode is always useful. Which ever process by
which you wish to control the starter is fine.
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Alternator Cut-In |
At 12:33 PM 5/16/2007 -0400, you wrote:
><edchristian@knology.net>
>
>I have an alternator from Mark Landoll - 35 amp variety with external
>regulator mounted on back.
>
>It does not come on until approx. 1500 rpm on initial start-up and
>then will stay on all the way till idle - what causes this and how
>can I modify so it will come on as soon as AC is started?
Without knowing the details of the alternator's
regulator, one cannot deduce root cause of the
phenomenon you describe. You might try hooking
a generic "ford" regulator described in Note 21
of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf
This regulator switches field current ON even
when the engine is not running.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Bob,
How is the testing going on the 5-volt dimmer you designed? Is it close to
being ready to sell? Thanks in advance. Don
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|