---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/16/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:46 AM - Re: Avionics Master (Dear Chuck) () 3. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) (Ernest Christley) 4. 09:19 AM - Panel Update (Edward Christian) 5. 09:35 AM - Alternator Cut-In (Edward Christian) 6. 10:10 AM - GS-Air Tech Manual (Dennis Johnson) 7. 12:03 PM - Avionics install supplies on ebay (Dr. Andrew Elliott) 8. 01:38 PM - Starter Wiring (Peter Pengilly) 9. 02:28 PM - Re: Starter Wiring (Michael Ice) 10. 07:48 PM - Re: Starter Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:25 PM - Re: Alternator Cut-In (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:34 PM - 5 Volt Dimmer (Don Vs) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:38 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) > >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:55 PM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; gmvouga@hotmail.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) > >Greg if you want a avionic master switch >by golly PUT ONE IN, and be proud and >happy, because it will work just like you >think it will and know you like. > >After you plow thru all the required reading >and "data" which is really an elaborate opinion >dressed up with a bunch of gobbly-gook, >bottom line its your choice and yours alone. "Required"??? What's required of anyone and who has taken it upon themselves to levy such requirements? Please define "gobbly-gook", is that a scientific term? >Bob has good points, but there not all >quintessential or relevant. For examples >some modern avionics, like the very popular >excellent Icom A200 com radio needs to be >OFF during start! So does my old Collins >transponder. You can use the little volume/off >switch or mode switch and turn them on and >off individually, but it's a pain. Bob may call >for Icom's head and berate them for their >design, but he is not going to buy you a new >Icom when it fries. If you insist on leaving >avionics on during start it could happen. By >the way the ICOM A200 is an awesome >radio and a super value, recommend. Who has called for anyone's head? You mis-represent or have mis-understood what I've suggested. Are you asserting that an Icom subjected to the normal, documented and expected voltage excursions associated with starting an engine is at risk for a failure that generates a maintenance event? Hmmm . . . In keeping with your understanding of how the Icom is designed, should you also turn it off if you're getting ready to turn on an air conditioner compressor drive motor or perhaps lower gear with a hydraulic pump driven with a PM motor? Icom is (or in my personal experience at least was) the acknowledged leader in operational quality of their radios. But does this fact give them license to toss off a rudimentary operating feature that the vast majority of suppliers to aviation know about, understand and embrace in the design of their products? Are you certain that Icom has assumed that license and chooses admonish customers to pamper products that suffer from rudimentary design deficiencies? >One big fat beautiful avionics master >switch is nice. You can of course avoid >single point failure several ways. I >think the e-bus will do it, or two >switches in parallel, even a single >throw, double pole switch would do it. >Chance is the master switch will never >fail, and once you throw that switch on >its not going to fail, my opinion. Are >you flying IFR at 18,000 ft or day/night >vfr. Just use good old common sense. If one has an E-bus with two feed paths, the issue does not pivot on the probability of failure for any single switch. >I sometimes disagree with Bob and this is >one of them. This is one of those topics >Bob has a very strong opinion on, emphasis >on opinion, but don't let any one tell you what >to do when it comes down to preference, >which this is. I've told nobody to do anything. I've offered design goals and backed them up with a recitation of the underlying simple ideas and 46 years of first hand design experience, customer service and observation of the marketplace. You sir have yet to support any assertions with an understanding of either physics, fact or experience as a professional >All you have to know is there is NOT a good >reason for leaving an avionics master switch >out of your panel. If that is what you want, it's >very simple, you want it, put it in. It's common >and useful even today. And if you'd properly quoted me you would have acknowledged the many times I've written as follows: ". . . if one wants an "avionics master" it could be a switch in series with the diode . . . which prevents problems from inadvertent switch operation. You still have a backup from the alternate feed path which can be used for either loss of main path -OR- provides power when you've shut the main bus down after an alternator system failure." >Is opinion & preference not safety, end of story. > >Here is another professional opinion: > >http://avionicswest.com/articles.htm An excellent recitation of dogma supported by not one citation of fact in the physics of anyone's design or the willingness of manufacturer's to sign up to the best we know how to do. I had lunch with a customer yesterday to talk about pitch trim and flap actuation systems for a new airplane. These will be processor driven and have a lot of new features designed to increase ride comfort and reduce pilot workload. Neither of these designs will require operator intervention to drag it back out of the weeds or prevent damage due to a brown-out event whether driven by and engine-start or any other condition. The addition of these features will be totally transparent to the pilot and passengers . . . an expression and production of the best we know how to do. Achieving this design goal adds less than 1% to cost of bill of materials and about the same to the software task. I.e, it's easy to do so why not do it? >Good Luck, and don't over think it and >use the KISS principle. >George ATP/CFI-II-ME/MSME Gee George, we wouldn't want to think about it too much would we? I agree that thinking without striving for understanding is a waste of one's time. Hundreds of thousands of airplanes have been built and flown without burdening the pilots with a suggestion that they understand how the electrical system works . . . and the vast majority of those pilots lived to a ripe old age. But from time to time, one of those pilots (and the publisher of some magazine) believes that a certain amount of thinking would be useful . . . so we get the dark-n-stormy night story that adds no understanding but offers something to think about. There are, no doubt, forums where dogma is preached and thinking for understanding is not promoted . . . that just happens not to be what goes on in this forum. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:33 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (Dear Chuck) No Chuck: You do mis-understand. If YOU want an avionics master, regardless of any ones opinion (any one), mine, Bob's, Avionics West, than put one in (period end of story). Read all opinions, yes, but make your own mind up. That is the message. (END) ************************************************************** You quoted Avionics West as some kind of Gotch-A? >"The most valuable quote from the article comes >light of your castigating Bob for espousing >"opinions", and I quote from your definitive." "Modern avionics" and KX-155 and DME in the same sentence is kind of funny, I'd have to agree. The KX- 155 has been around for +20 years, and likely does not have a filtered DO-160 spec power supply, don't know just guessing. Again DO-160 or not doesn't matter. If you want your avionics master switch put it in. Also DO- 160 does not mean your unit complies. Avionics are software driven as you, so they my re-boot during start. During start you can get below 10 volts and not even DO-160 will save the day and keep it running, so it will reboot any way. Might as well turn it off? May be one conclusion. Also I'm not saying the Avionics West reference was handed down from upon high on stone tablets & better than Bob's opinion. That's ridiculous, especially with this semi-trivial topic. The point was showing another "professionals opinion" who works on and around avionics everyday and puts value on the avionics switch. Do you have have a man crush on Bob or something. That is cool, he's your hero, mine to. (joke - laugh) I do think Bob's point is salient and valid however not quintessential and possibly irrelevant. His main argument is "modern radios" don't mind being on during start. Well that is not universal, and that's was my point, a valid and good point, I don't mind saying. It's not a Gotch-A on Bob. He is right, avionics switches are not required. That is a true statement, and it has always been true, because radios usually have there own on/off switch. Last, this is FOR FUN and learning. Don't take it too serious. Listen to all opinion and respect all opinions. No one is saying any one is wrong, out of line or one opinion is better. It's just a freaking avionics switch, A SWITCH, not rocket science or a Moon shot. Nuff said. Enjoyed your analysis and nit picking (joke - laugh) George ATP/CFI-II-ME/MSME do not archive >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (to >From: "Chuck Jensen" > >George, > >The most valuable quote from the article comes in >light of your castigating Bob for espousing "opinions", >and I quote from your definitive reference: > >In summary, if you have modern avionics such as >KX-155s, Loran, DMEs, GPS, fuel flows and sorts, >then in my opinion an avionics master is a must. >(emphasis and underline, mine). > >If I understand correctly, you are casting aspersions >on Bob's opinion....with another opinion; from >someone who we don't know and have no >understanding of their CV, if any. Very interesting. > >Chuck Jensen --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:20 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Avionics Master (to be or not to be) Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >> gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com >> >> After you plow thru all the required reading >> and "data" which is really an elaborate opinion >> dressed up with a bunch of gobbly-gook, >> bottom line its your choice and yours alone. > > "Required"??? What's required of anyone > and who has taken it upon themselves to > levy such requirements? Bob, I've seen this sort of response to your writings quite often. While I think I understand your intent, I think other people really want some authority to tell them what to do. If all else fails, they will find one where none exists. I think you should carry a signature along the lines of, "I strive to be a teacher, not your mother. I only have suggestions, not directives." ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:17 AM PST US From: Edward Christian Subject: AeroElectric-List: Panel Update I would like some input on a Panel Update I am about to embark on. I have a VFR RV-6 with 0-360 with 2 mags and Vacuum System Looking to update Aircraft to "modified" Z-13/8 All Electric Plane. Modifications are as follows: 1. Keep basic Mags - no pMags 2. Basic 35amp automotive alternator plus SD-8 as shown New electric requirements would be: Dynon D10A or D-100 Garmin 300XL GPS/Comm King KT-76 Transponder FlightCom 403 Intercom Ameri-King AK350 Encoder Keep basic steam gauges as back up - Altimeter, A/S, VVi, and Wing Leveler Flaps Land Lights Taxi Lights Strobe Lights Pos Lights Cockpit lights Instrument lights Fuel Guage Hobbs Trim - elevator only Keep basic engine instrument or update to Grand Rapids EIS or Rocky Mountain 101K Otherwise, everything done in accordance with Z-13/8 Suggestions? Ed ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:03 AM PST US From: Edward Christian Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Cut-In I have an alternator from Mark Landoll - 35 amp variety with external regulator mounted on back. It does not come on until approx. 1500 rpm on initial start-up and then will stay on all the way till idle - what causes this and how can I modify so it will come on as soon as AC is started? Thanks, Ed ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:17 AM PST US From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GS-Air Tech Manual Hi Chris, The GS-Air Technical Information Manual that I printed out doesn't seem to be on the GS-Air website anymore. I'm sure he will send it to you if you email him; customer support has always been outstanding. The full title for the version I have is: GS-AIR Technical Information Manual LED-001, LED-002, LED-003 LED-Based Position and Landing Light Systems With Reference to FAR 23.1383 - 23.1397 However, here's one I found Googling: http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Safety/LED_Position_Lights/LEDtechnical/le dtechnical.html that seems to have similar info. Good luck, Dennis Johnson ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:32 PM PST US From: "Dr. Andrew Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics install supplies on ebay Well, about two weeks ago I put in request for information about a connector for a Narco transponder. I got one useful reply from Bob, but only for a similar replacement for the 18-hole, single-row Molex type KK edge connectors, which are still used in a lot of video games, and are available from jammaboards.com. I also contacted Narco about getting an "official" installation kit, which they would be happy to sell me for only $81.77, and doesn't even include the female BNC pigtail, for which they want an extra $123.60! Anyway, after checking ebay on and off, I discovered someone selling the *exact* connector (no longer produced, BTW) I needed for $20, including the contactors. I'll pick up the unusual BNC tray connector and antenna from the Lane-Pilot-Store for about $20 each, also on ebay and a very good source for non-NARCO avionics installation supplies. Not bad. Andy Elliott, Mesa, AZ N601GE (reserved) 601XL/TD/QB, Corvair, building... ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:57 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Wiring Dear All, I am building a One Design and am striving for the lightest possible weight while maintaining acceptable (to me) levels of safety. I have researched the wiring of the starter and admit to a certain amount of confusion as to why a relay is used to switch the current to the starter. I have researched the subject quite extensively and would appreciate your comments on the following. The goals are light weight, simplicity and reliability (probably means minimum number of components). I am not prepared to fly without a starter. I will be using a starter button and two independent mag switches (both ignition systems on during cranking) and a permanent magnet type starter. Allow me to summarise what I understand the issues are, and describe what I intend to do. The "conventional" system where a relay on the firewall is used to switch the thick wire to the starter is not too bad a system, but there is a risk that the contacts weld themselves together (and hence the British authorities require the installation of a 'starter warning light' - an led on the switched side of the relay). The installation of a diode is recommended (still can't remember why). There is also the possibility that once the starter button is released the starter motor will become a generator and cause the motor mounted solenoid to remain engaged for a short time - apparently not too good in the long run for the starter. It also seems to me that using a jumper from the starter feed to the solenoid is a bit daft, the starter has to have a solenoid so why not use it? If the firewall relay is deleted and the starter button is used to actuate the motor mounted solenoid the button is subject to high in-rush currents (~35A) and up to 10A of steady current, values that may require a very heavy duty starter button, or the average starter button may have a rather short life. But this way the starter warning light is not needed - I don't know exactly what it is, but I really don't want one of these lights (I never look at the one currently fitted to my current aircraft). The firewall relay could be retained, and the 4th terminal used to switch the solenoid, but I'm not sure this really buys you very much over the conventional set up. The final set up is to run the starter feed directly from the master relay (I really don't think it matters that this wire will be 'hot' all the time that the master is on), and to use a relay to switch the solenoid only. As I already have a 200+A rated relay I might as well use that, or I could go to the local auto parts store and get one of those plastic cube relays rated at 40A (assuming one is available). As I'm not switching 200+ amps with the relay I won't need a starter warning light (hooray), the starter button is only switching a few amps, I'm using the solenoid for what its meant to do, I will only have to terminated the minimum number of thick connections and I won't need any diodes. Seems to me like a winner - so what have I overlooked? Comments welcome. Peter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:12 PM PST US From: Michael Ice Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter Wiring Peter, Check the archives for, contactor, relay or solenoid. I am sure your questions have been answered many times. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Wiring > Dear All, > > I am building a One Design and am striving for the lightest possible > weight while maintaining acceptable (to me) levels of safety. I have > researched the wiring of the starter and admit to a certain amount of > confusion as to why a relay is used to switch the current to the > starter. I have researched the subject quite extensively and would > appreciate your comments on the following. > > The goals are light weight, simplicity and reliability (probably means > minimum number of components). I am not prepared to fly without a > starter. I will be using a starter button and two independent mag > switches (both ignition systems on during cranking) and a permanent > magnet type starter. > > Allow me to summarise what I understand the issues are, and describe > what I intend to do. The "conventional" system where a relay on the > firewall is used to switch the thick wire to the starter is not > too bad > a system, but there is a risk that the contacts weld themselves > together(and hence the British authorities require the > installation of a > 'starter warning light' - an led on the switched side of the > relay). The > installation of a diode is recommended (still can't remember why). > Thereis also the possibility that once the starter button is > released the > starter motor will become a generator and cause the motor mounted > solenoid to remain engaged for a short time - apparently not too > good in > the long run for the starter. It also seems to me that using a jumper > from the starter feed to the solenoid is a bit daft, the starter > has to > have a solenoid so why not use it? > > If the firewall relay is deleted and the starter button is used to > actuate the motor mounted solenoid the button is subject to high > in-rush > currents (~35A) and up to 10A of steady current, values that may > requirea very heavy duty starter button, or the average starter > button may have > a rather short life. But this way the starter warning light is not > needed - I don't know exactly what it is, but I really don't want > one of > these lights (I never look at the one currently fitted to my current > aircraft). > > The firewall relay could be retained, and the 4th terminal used to > switch the solenoid, but I'm not sure this really buys you very much > over the conventional set up. > > The final set up is to run the starter feed directly from the master > relay (I really don't think it matters that this wire will be > 'hot' all > the time that the master is on), and to use a relay to switch the > solenoid only. As I already have a 200+A rated relay I might as > well use > that, or I could go to the local auto parts store and get one of those > plastic cube relays rated at 40A (assuming one is available). As > I'm not > switching 200+ amps with the relay I won't need a starter warning > light(hooray), the starter button is only switching a few amps, > I'm using the > solenoid for what its meant to do, I will only have to terminated the > minimum number of thick connections and I won't need any diodes. Seems > to me like a winner - so what have I overlooked? > > Comments welcome. > > Peter > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter Wiring At 09:36 PM 5/16/2007 +0100, you wrote: >Dear All, > > Allow me to summarise what I understand the issues are, and describe what I intend to do. The conventional system where a relay on the firewall is used to switch the thick wire to the starter is not too bad a system, but there is a risk that the contacts weld themselves together (and hence the British authorities require the installation of a starter warning light an led on the switched side of the relay). EVERY contactor, whether built onto the starter or added piggy-back as shown in the Z-figures is subject to contact sticking. The warning light is a good thing to consider no matter which contactor actually does the task of controlling starter current. The installation of a diode is recommended (still cant remember why). See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/spikecatcher.pdf There is also the possibility that once the starter button is released the starter motor will become a generator and cause the motor mounted solenoid to remain engaged for a short time apparently not too good in the long run for the starter. It also seems to me that using a jumper from the starter feed to the solenoid is a bit daft, the starter has to have a solenoid so why not use it? See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf If the firewall relay is deleted and the starter button is used to actuate the motor mounted solenoid the button is subject to high in-rush currents (~35A) and up to 10A of steady current, values that may require a very heavy duty starter button, or the average starter button may have a rather short life. But this way the starter warning light is not needed I dont know exactly what it is, but I really dont want one of these lights (I never look at the one currently fitted to my current aircraft). "Need" is a matter of perceptions but no contactor is immune from sticking. Treat this as you wish for the decision as to whether or not a starter engaged warning light is to be a part of your system. The firewall relay could be retained, and the 4th terminal used to switch the solenoid, but Im not sure this really buys you very much over the conventional set up. Either works. The final set up is to run the starter feed directly from the master relay (I really dont think it matters that this wire will be hot all the time that the master is on), and to use a relay to switch the solenoid only. This is illustrated in: Figure Z-22 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf As I already have a 200+A rated relay I might as well use that, or I could go to the local auto parts store and get one of those plastic cube relays rated at 40A (assuming one is available). As Im not switching 200+ amps with the relay I wont need a starter warning light (hooray), the starter button is only switching a few amps, Im using the solenoid for what its meant to do, I will only have to terminated the minimum number of thick connections and I wont need any diodes. Seems to me like a winner so what have I overlooked? The diode is always useful. Which ever process by which you wish to control the starter is fine. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:28 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Cut-In At 12:33 PM 5/16/2007 -0400, you wrote: > > >I have an alternator from Mark Landoll - 35 amp variety with external >regulator mounted on back. > >It does not come on until approx. 1500 rpm on initial start-up and >then will stay on all the way till idle - what causes this and how >can I modify so it will come on as soon as AC is started? Without knowing the details of the alternator's regulator, one cannot deduce root cause of the phenomenon you describe. You might try hooking a generic "ford" regulator described in Note 21 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11J.pdf This regulator switches field current ON even when the engine is not running. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may ) ( give some practical results, but ) ( that's not why we do it." ) ( ) ( Richard P. Feynman ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:11 PM PST US From: "Don Vs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 5 Volt Dimmer Bob, How is the testing going on the 5-volt dimmer you designed? Is it close to being ready to sell? Thanks in advance. 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