Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:48 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (John Burnaby)
2. 03:17 AM - Runaway Trim Solution ? ()
3. 04:12 AM - Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) ()
4. 04:56 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (S. Ramirez)
5. 05:35 AM - Re: glide slope antenna (Robert Feldtman)
6. 05:44 AM - Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (N395V)
7. 06:12 AM - Re: glide slope antenna (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 06:16 AM - Re:mulitple e-mails (Bob McCallum)
9. 06:56 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Doug Windhorn)
10. 07:19 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (N395V)
11. 07:33 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (David Abrahamson)
12. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (MLWynn@aol.com)
13. 07:39 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (David Abrahamson)
14. 07:44 AM - Re: It's an airplane question for the RC type. (Darwin N. Barrie)
15. 09:05 AM - Re: Runaway trim (Kevin Horton)
16. 10:42 AM - Runaway Trim (Dennis Johnson)
17. 11:06 AM - Wiring Your Own Panel (Dennis Johnson)
18. 01:02 PM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (Jekyll)
19. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 06:44 PM - Re: glide slope antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 06:57 PM - Re: glide slope antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 07:15 PM - Re: Need a wiring diagram (Dale Fultz)
24. 07:15 PM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
25. 07:43 PM - How hard to wire panel-Approach HUB (CardinalNSB@aol.com)
26. 07:43 PM - SPA-400 intercom (Bob Vandegrift)
27. 08:01 PM - Re: Need a wiring diagram (William Gill)
28. 08:02 PM - Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Eric M. Jones)
29. 08:10 PM - Re: Alternator Load-Dump (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 08:16 PM - Re: SPA-400 intercom (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
31. 08:44 PM - how hard is it to wire a panel (Stephen Reynolds)
32. 09:06 PM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
33. 09:07 PM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
You might consider just having an avionics tech wire the EFIS, AP,
Nav/Com, GPS, etc, so that they all talk nice to each other, and you do
all the switches, CBs/Fuses, grounds, etc. You can save a bunch that way
because there's a lot of tedious labor in doing all those repetitive
power/ground connections. SteinAir and Stark will work with you that way
and I'm sure there are others.
John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Runaway Trim Solution ? |
This was posted as a possible solution to runaway trim:
"I believe there exists a simple solution for those who are really worried about
a stuck trim airfoil and would be satisfied with a disconnected trim
airfoil--explosive
bolts. "
"A less exciting alternative would be to arrange a cotter spring pin so that it
can be extracted remotely via fishing line or actuating cable from the clevis
pin that attaches the trim flap arm to the mechanism."
A potential problem with disconnecting the linkage to a trim tab is
catastrophic aerodynamic control surface flutter.
Paul Siegel
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) |
Bob:
Me Think Doth Protest Ye Too Much,
Bob there you go again, lugubrious as usual, exercising mass
rhetoric and demagoguery. You have out done your self. I have
to say I'm flattered at your ad-hominem attack. Thanks. You make
everything personal Bob and it's not. Facts Bob, facts please.
Of course a builder was in a state of panic, they read your manifesto.
I'd be scared to, hearing how terrible internally regulated alternators
are according to you. (ha-ha) I just think you are wrong, all right.
Peace Bob, I don't want to fight with you and I am not. They
are my opinions based on building, flying and maintaining
many experimental aircraft and actually listening to all your
advice, plus my research and my engineering back-ground. Of
course engineers are stupid according to you, but I digress.
If you are this sensitive to any criticism or disagreement from
your edicts and decrees, it really says more than I could say
about you in a 10,000 words my friend. It's just an alternator.
Bob, you misconstrue, distort and use "straw-man" arguments
to make your points, which just misdirects and distracts from
the point. You seem to say, "I never said", a lot? Bob no one
said you did say it. I'm only providing my unique insight,
because you didn't say it. It seems to me you can't grip the
concept that someone else has unique ideas, which you did
not consider or think of. Disagree, fine, but not all thought and
ideas come from you Bob. Hard to believe, I know.
I'll read your manifesto when I get a chance. I'm sure I will
enjoy it. However the vitriol and pettiness is unwarranted.
Everything I said is true about you Bob, and I appreciate all the
cool stuff and info you provide, just not crow-bars on internally
regulated alternators, sorry, and why? (with plane power units)
I could write a word-by-word nit-pick reply of everything you have
said now and in the past, but I have a life. If the "crow-bar" on an
internally regulated alternator is a good idea to you, more power to
you, but you really don't understand how they are designed, work
and fail. Actually you admitted that in your own words a year or so
ago. So how can you make a band-aid for a device you don't
understand? You can't. You can antagonize me with a 10,000,
words but I reply.....it's getting boring, ho-hum, u make me laugh.
Keep scaring those builders and panic them with gloom-n-doom.
You know if you don't use a crow-bar, the terrorist will win.
(joking of course). BTW, congrats on your new career move.
Take care, God Bless
George (the 1st) ATP,CFI-II-ME, MSME, B7375767, RV-4/7
PS: My "George is still at it..." advice:
My advice to builders is actually the same as Bob's, get an externally
regulated alternator if you are worried or your mission requires it, aka
IFR. The only thing I add is use a solid state regulator (Transpo
V1200) with solid state OV protection, not a 1970's something Ford
unit with a crow-bar add-on. There is no reason to involve a CB with
solid state relay technology. B&C is crazy expensive, so forget that.
My alternative (really 1st) recommendation is use Plane Power units.
They have better fans and brushes than stock or B&C units, and they
offer both internally and externally regulated units. The beauty of
their internal units is they add an elegant secondary OV protection
device, which I think is very suitable for any critical EFIS or IFR
mission plane. My opinion of course, but RV builders love their Plane
Power alternators. They are an excellent value. I have looked into it,
and they offer an outstanding product. (sorry B&C no offense too $$$)
Bob, you say you have data, but you don't put forth any information;
just very strong rhetoric. I assume you don't have it, mostly hyped
stories you heard second hand. That's not very scientific of you and it
scares people. A stock high quality ND clone alternator installed &
operated properly is very reliable and benign, with out an OV relay.
Disagree, fine, but show me some facts. I don't have hard data
either, but I'm not a hypocrite pretending I do, hiding behind a large
soap box. Even after a product like Plane Power comes out, you still
push the crow-bars on ND alternators. Don't get it, so with respect I
agree to disagree. (Note: Van's Aircraft will not warranty any ND
alternator you buy from them, if you put a crow bar on it, hint.)
What part of, I think a crow-bar and OV relay is a bad idea on an
internally regulated ND alternator don't understand? My opinion, sue
me. Nuff said.
Cheers, G (U all are too up-tight, relax this is suppose to be fun, gee.)
>From: Robert L. Nuckolls, III
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: George is still at it . . .
>
>I'm not going to enter into any further discussions about
>George's convoluted offerings but refer folks to these
>documents (edit: GOOD):
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/The_Truth_about_Crowbar_OV_Protection.pdf
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/gmcjetpilot.html
---------------------------------
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) |
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 7:11 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why
not?)
Take care, God Bless
George (the 1st) ATP,CFI-II-ME, MSME, B7375767, RV-4/7
George,
Just out of curiosity, what is your real first and last name and where do
you live? It would be nice to know who everyone is on these lists.
Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder
LEZ N-44LZ
Oviedo, FL 32765 USA
Copyright C 2007
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: glide slope antenna |
You might try a pre-amp on the glideslope side - after the splitter, to
boost the signal. I thought RVs were all aluminum; thus a cowl antenna
inside wouldn't work. Check out QST (the ham journal) for sources for
preamps - we hams use them a lot on VHF and UHF work
bobf
On 6/9/07, Chris Hukill <cjhukill@cox.net> wrote:
>
> I recently added a Garmin 430 WAAS to my RV8, and used a Bob Archer
> antenna in the wing tip, with a splitter for VLOC and Glide slope. The
> signal strength is OK for the VLOC, however it's too weak to drive the Glide
> slope, until right on top of the runway threshold. The avionics shop put the
> tester on on it, and it checks OK, but with the long RG58 run, and a
> splitter there just isn't enough gain.
> So I guess the fix is another (G/S) antenna. I don't want anything else
> dangling in the breeze, so I'm thinking about a RST Technologies dipole
> antenna (kit) glassed into the lower cowl.
> My question is: has anyone had any experience with this type antenna, and
> are there any sources besides RST, as when I called them for advise, they
> where unwilling to answer questions, or provide any help.
> Thanks
> cjhukill@cox.net
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) |
George,
I am impressed. Bob has posted your very own article about you. You now have joined
the ranks of the famous along with Greg Richter.
Last time I tweaked Bobs nose for being less than civil in his responses all I
got were a couple of hateful e mails from his groupies.
Maybe I should have asked the e mailers for their last names. But then again I
just do not see where that would be of any help.
Keep at it George I enjoy your posts here and on the Vans Air Force forums. I find
most of them informative and useful.
> what has become a tiresome nuisance....George's convoluted offerings
Great response Bob. Ever the bully.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
website http://www.excaliburaviation.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117585#117585
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: glide slope antenna |
Good Morning bobf,
Way out of my area of expertise, but I would look at replacing the wing tip
antenna.
I have never used one, but I have used hundreds of conventional antennas.
Fifty years ago, our VHF Navigation receivers required a pretty strong signal.
However, the modern day sets can get an adequate signal from a wet noodle!
I have often fed two Localizer/VORs and two glide slope receivers from one
set of blades on the tail or one flying V style antenna. I understand that
others have gotten suitable signals from wing tip antennas. Rather than patch on
a repair to a non-performing antenna, I would locate a better antenna.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 6/10/2007 7:36:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
bobf@feldtman.com writes:
You might try a pre-amp on the glideslope side - after the splitter, to
boost the signal. I thought RVs were all aluminum; thus a cowl antenna inside
wouldn't work. Check out QST (the ham journal) for sources for preamps - we hams
use them a lot on VHF and UHF work
bobf
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re:mulitple e-mails |
MessageHi Bruce;
I'm receiving only one copy of each.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Gray
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 1:37 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: glide slope antenna
Am I the only one recieving multiple copies of the same emails from
all of the Matronics list servers?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
Kevin,
Good point. Normally, I would tweak the trim into takeoff position which
would verify proper operation. I have a checklist item for that purpose,
but it is easy to see how actual operation of the trim setting could be
overlooked (e.g., already set at takeoff trim position)..
However, even overlooking this step would not be the equivalent of the trim
going to extreme and should be totally controllable for slow a go-around and
landing to address the problem.
Regards, Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01@rogers.com>
Sent: Thursday, 07 June, 2007 14:34
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Runaway trim
> <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
> On 7 Jun 2007, at 15:47, Doug Windhorn wrote:
>
>> Use two (on)-off-(on) rocker switches, installed side by side. The 1st
>> switch is the power control switch. The 2nd switch is the servo control
>> switch. Both must be activated simultaneously to move the servo. Wire
>> the outputs [(on)] of the first switch to together and input to the 2nd
>> switch [off] and any relays or other components in the trim system
>> needing power. Unless the power switch is moved to either (on) position,
>> there is no power to the trim system and it should not go anywhere; no
>> need to get into a reactive situation, or have a pullable breaker.
>>
>
> If you go down this road, you should add a first flight of the day ground
> test to confirm that the power switch has not failed in the hot position.
> This would be a dormant failure, which would defeat the protection
> provided by this design, and would only be detected by a specific test.
>
> Kevin Horton
> RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
Michael,
Above represents some of the best advice you can get....
> Have a look at http://www.approachfaststack.com/ I'm planning to do this.
>
> Bevan
> RV7A
> Wiring the panel is not so much hard as very tedious. You have to be
> very organized and make a record (schematic or pictorial diagram) of
> your wiring connections so you know where everything goes and so you
> would be able to troubleshoot the system if anything goes wrong in the
> future, or if you want to make changes in the future..
>
> While I haven't been to one of Bob's seminars, I suspect that it would
> give you the knowledge you need to do the wiring. If you have not
> purchased the Aeroelectric connection booklet that is the first thing
> you should do.
>
> In a lot of respects this is just like any other task in building your
> plane. There are a few specialized tools you will need and other than
> that just approach it methodically and in an organized fashion.
>
> Dick Tasker
>
> If you have someone that has been-there-done-that to ask a few questions to get
you started
> Bill
>
> How much is your time worth per hour. Figure at least 100 hours to wire your
panel.
>
> On the other hand when you do wire it you understand it.
>
> Mike
>
>
I wired my own panel with 2 BMA EFISs and Garmin Transponder, Nav Comm and audio
panel. I had a remote avionics background (vacuum tube era) and I found it to
be tedious, time consuming, and frustrating.
But in the end it was very rewarding and as mentioned above knowing the system
has made trouble shooting a breeze.
While I did not use it, having mostly Garmin the fast stack approach system would
work well and be a huge timesaver, in my opinion well worth the expense.
Looking back at my builders log I spent 85 hours wiring the panel and about 260
hours wiring the panel to the plane and building, installing, and wiring all
of the aircrafts electrical systems. You will not regret wiring it yourself.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117605#117605
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
Michael,
I am the Napoleon's corporal of electronics. Yet, I installed a GRT
dual EFIS and EIS, Garmins 430, SL30, GTX330, GMA340, and Trutrak
Digiflight II VSGV myself, making only one benign wiring error out of
hundreds of connections. I bought the Garmins from Stark who
assembled that harness, and used the GRT and SteinAir-produced AP
harnesses. With help from Stark, GRT, and Trutrak's techs, I was
able to resolve all installation challenges. What I don't understand
about having a panel made is that many parts of the harnesses have to
be routed through the sub-panel assembly, and several "panel"
components -- such as the encoder, voltage regulator(s), AHRS, and
magnetometer end up being installed on the airframe. This means that
after spending seven grand, you'll still face a substantial amount of
work and challenges. I seems to me that if you have available time
and interest, doing it yourself is a far better proposition.
David
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
I really want to thank all who responded to this question.
Year ago, I was a repairman for Heathkit, the home build-it-yourself
electronics company. I have no fear about my ability to solder and wire, just
mystification about the process as applied to avionics. It sounds like this is
no
different than my fear of riveting. Got over it and am quite good at it now.
$7K is a big bite out of my budget. I think that I will take everyone's
advice and do this myself. I would much rather know how it is all done and be
able to fix a glitch than be dependent on someone else to fix problems.
I am about six months away from the panel wiring. You will probably hear
from me again on the subject. Again my thanks
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Fuselage
San Ramon, CA
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
oh and... without Bob's book, I would have had no choice but to
throw myself on the mercy of a panel builder -- and would have had an
infinitely harder time setting up a working electrical system. I
used Z12 and have been very happy with it.
D
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: It's an airplane question for the RC type. |
Hey Mike,
We were talking about this last weekend at the International Hand Launch
Glider Festival in San Diego. The key seems to be getting a speed
control with the proper BEC that keeps the voltage at higher levels. Not
sure which one that is but I'm sure someone on RCGroups would have an
answer.
I can tell you the new Futaba 2.4 stuff does not suffer from the same.
Their chip was designed for the purpose. The other stuff was off the
shelf chips that were not designed for power fluctuations. The XPS
system for example uses a chip from wireless routers. That is part of
the reason they are not working well in a variety of environments. The
only system that has work in a very crowded environment is the Futaba
stuff.
I'm holding on to all of my 72 stuff until there is some milage on the
2.4 equipment. The more that go to 2.4 the less that will be on 72.
(Mike, give me a call)
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Runaway trim |
I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your intended design, or if you
have misunderstood my point.
I understood the intended design to require two switches to be
activated to make the trim move. One switch controls power to the
whole system, and the other controls the signal to the servo. The
idea is that both switches need to fail to trigger a runaway trim
(and, a wiring fault can't trigger a runaway trim, as there is no
power in the wires unless switch #1 is selected).
My concern is that if you just use the system normally, you can't
detect the failure case where switch #1 has failed in the hot
position. In this failure case, the trim will still work normally -
it will move in the selected direction, and it will only move when
switch #2 is selected. But, this failure has negated the protections
provided by this design. If you are concerned enough about runaway
trim to install this design architecture, then you should devise some
sort of periodic test to confirm that switch #1 has not failed in the
hot position. E.g., leave switch #1 in the neutral position, and
push switch #2 - the trim should not move. If the trim moves, this
tells you that switch #1 has failed in the hot position.
Kevin
On 10 Jun 2007, at 09:55, Doug Windhorn wrote:
> <N1DeltaWhiskey@comcast.net>
>
> Kevin,
>
> Good point. Normally, I would tweak the trim into takeoff position
> which would verify proper operation. I have a checklist item for
> that purpose, but it is easy to see how actual operation of the
> trim setting could be overlooked (e.g., already set at takeoff trim
> position)..
>
> However, even overlooking this step would not be the equivalent of
> the trim going to extreme and should be totally controllable for
> slow a go-around and landing to address the problem.
>
> Regards, Doug
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton"
> <khorton01@rogers.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 07 June, 2007 14:34
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Runaway trim
>
>
>> <khorton01@rogers.com>
>>
>> On 7 Jun 2007, at 15:47, Doug Windhorn wrote:
>>
>>> Use two (on)-off-(on) rocker switches, installed side by side.
>>> The 1st switch is the power control switch. The 2nd switch is
>>> the servo control switch. Both must be activated simultaneously
>>> to move the servo. Wire the outputs [(on)] of the first switch
>>> to together and input to the 2nd switch [off] and any relays or
>>> other components in the trim system needing power. Unless the
>>> power switch is moved to either (on) position, there is no power
>>> to the trim system and it should not go anywhere; no need to get
>>> into a reactive situation, or have a pullable breaker.
>>>
>>
>> If you go down this road, you should add a first flight of the
>> day ground test to confirm that the power switch has not failed
>> in the hot position. This would be a dormant failure, which would
>> defeat the protection provided by this design, and would only be
>> detected by a specific test.
>>
>> Kevin Horton
>> RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
>> Ottawa, Canada
>> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 16
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I have a Ray Allen Company (RAC) trim servo on each of the three trim
tabs on my Lancair Legacy. When I was doing my electrical design, I
talked with one of the principals at RAC, who claimed that the design of
the servo makes "runway" within the servo impossible. Since almost
anything is possible, I interpreted his statement to mean that it was
very unlikely.
I think the most likely way to get runaway trim in my airplane is a
stuck trim switch. I expect that physically forcing the switch to the
opposite position would likely unstick the switch and allow control of
the trim tab until landing.
Another, less likely, cause of runway trim would be shorted wires
between the electrical bus and the servo. I've tried to minimize that
risk by careful termination of the wires and attention to supporting the
wire bundles and preventing chafing.
I've also tried to simplify the trim systems to keep the parts count
down. For example, I do not have anything to defeat the copilot's trim
switch; both stick grips are "hot" all the time. I brief passengers on
what the buttons on the copilot stick grip do and the need to avoid
inadvertent actuation during the preflight passenger briefing. I do not
have electro/mechanical relays in the system.
For my system, I feel runaway trim is a very low probability risk and
that my time and energy is better focused on other, higher probability
risks. However, this discussion has reminded me that I need to complete
my flight testing plan to fully explore the edges of the envelope
related to trim travel and controllability.
Best,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy, now flying
Message 17
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| Subject: | Wiring Your Own Panel |
I wired my own panel on my Lancair Legacy. It is an IFR panel, with
dual Cheltons. I enjoyed it and felt a good sense of accomplishment
when I was done. (Well, actually, I'm still waiting for the 2.25"
TruTrak ADI, so I guess I'm not really done yet.) The biggest benefit
of wiring my own panel is that I understand, more or less, how
everything is hooked up. I often talk with other builders who do not
know relatively basic things about their instrument panel and therefore
don't have a clue how to begin to troubleshoot a problem.
On the downside, it was a huge project, taking months of effort. And
despite my best efforts to bundle the wires neatly, the back side of my
panel doesn't look nearly as professional as ones that SteinAir does
(for example). Those are real works of art and probably translate into
at least slightly better reliability.
I think everyone building his or her own airplane should attend Bob's
seminar. Even if you attend the seminar, you also need to study Bob's
book. I can't tell you how many times I've read it, and each time I get
something more out of it. It's not focused specifically on instrument
panel wiring, but provides the basic foundation you'll need.
If you enjoy tedious tasks and have the discipline to create a plan and
then follow it, you can do it. But, either way, I wouldn't recommend
doing it just to save money.
Good luck,
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy, now flying
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
Michael:
Per others, the Garmins must be "installed" by the dealer. For OBAM, that means
they either do the panel or sell a harness with the component ready to be connected
by you.
I priced out Garmin dealer harnesses and Fast stack harnesses and found the dealer
made harnesss to be about 25-30% less than Faststack. I just finished with
my panel and had a lot of fun. I know how everything works and connects so I
can do future repairs and upgrades.
I farmed out portions when appropriate:
Bought an Affordable Panel modular panel which came nicely laser cut for my specific
design, about $450.
Harnesses for the following:
GTX-327 $70
KMD-150 MFD W/GPS $50
SL-30 $175
SL-40 $50
PMA-8000B $325
The harnesses are nicly made and each wire is marked to identify what it is and
where you should terminate it.
Add wire, fuses, fuse blocks, CBs, switches, pitot/static connectors and other
assundry items for about $700.
The GRT Horizon 1 and EIS are dirt simple to install. They come with a harness
that you can easily modify to your needs.
In all, I spent about $1800 on mine not counting the actual components.
I wired up a TruTrak DigiFLight 11, TruTrak ADI with battery, AoA myself. Proved
very easy.
Jekyll
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117642#117642
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why |
not?)
At 05:43 AM 6/10/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>George,
>
>I am impressed. Bob has posted your very own article about you. You now
>have joined the ranks of the famous along with Greg Richter.
>
>Last time I tweaked Bobs nose for being less than civil in his responses
>all I got were a couple of hateful e mails from his groupies.
>
>Maybe I should have asked the e mailers for their last names. But then
>again I just do not see where that would be of any help.
>
>Keep at it George I enjoy your posts here and on the Vans Air Force
>forums. I find most of them informative and useful.
>
>
> > what has become a tiresome nuisance....George's convoluted offerings
>
>
>Great response Bob. Ever the bully.
Have we met sir? Obviously not or you would know
that your assessment is in error.
How is it that one individual who has a multi-year
history of dispensing bad science and personal attacks
while hiding behind a pseudonym can garner your support?
If you were attacked personally or professionally on
this List, I would be among the first to come to your
defense.
Honorable people are proud of what they do and who they
are is not a secret.
Come to one of my seminars (remind me of this exchange
and I'll comp your tuition), or drop by the tents at
OSH this year and I'd be pleased for you to discover for
yourself how utterly wrong you are.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: glide slope antenna |
At 09:11 AM 6/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>Good Morning bobf,
>
>Way out of my area of expertise, but I would look at replacing the wing
>tip antenna.
>
>I have never used one, but I have used hundreds of conventional antennas.
>Fifty years ago, our VHF Navigation receivers required a pretty strong
>signal. However, the modern day sets can get an adequate signal from a wet
>noodle!
>
>I have often fed two Localizer/VORs and two glide slope receivers from one
>set of blades on the tail or one flying V style antenna. I understand
>that others have gotten suitable signals from wing tip antennas. Rather
>than patch on a repair to a non-performing antenna, I would locate a
>better antenna.
You beat me to it Robert. I was mystified as to why
the installation cited was proving inadequate. As you've
correctly noted, the LOC/GS signals off the approach end
of the runway are huge . . . a simple two-band splitter
would have to be REALLY bad to cut the GS useful range
from 15 miles down to 7 . . . but to squash it all the
way to the threshold strongly suggests some factor
or combination of factors unrelated to the architecture.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why |
not?)
At 04:10 AM 6/10/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>Bob:
>
<snip>
>
>I'll read your manifesto when I get a chance. I'm sure I will
>enjoy it.
Please don't bother sir. It wasn't intended for you.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | glide slope antenna |
At 01:37 AM 6/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>Am I the only one recieving multiple copies of the same emails from all of
>the Matronics list servers?
The only way I can think this might happen is that your e-mail
address got duplicated in the server's file of recipients. Try
going to . . .
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/
put your email address in the box, hit the "find" button
followed by "execute". You should get a dump of all the lists
to which you've subscribed.
Now hit "uncheck all" and hit execute again. This should clear
all your subscriptions. Go back and do the find again an see if
you're still listed. If so, you've probably cleared out the duplicate
listing. If not, then recheck all the list services you're interested
in and "execute". If this exercise doesn't clear the problem,
drop a note to Matt Dralle. The fix may require a manual editing
effort on the file of subscribed addresses.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Need a wiring diagram |
Thanks Bill ,, I tried that route ,, you have to register to view the files
which I did but still haven't been able to access the file I need to view. I
am running out of time was trying to get done to make Oshkosh. Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Gill" <wgill10@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need a wiring diagram
> <wgill10@comcast.net>
>
> Dale,
>
> Try this link: http://www.pointeravionics.com/manual.php
>
> Bill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
> Fultz
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 1:29 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a wiring diagram
>
> <dfultz7@earthlink.net>
>
> Does anyone have a wiring diagram for a Pointer 3000-11 Elt for the
> remote
> switch. I bought a used one it came wired however there is two small
> wires
> on at each end of the harness that were cut I need to find out if they
> need
> connected together or connected to power and ground... Thanks Dale
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? |
In a message dated 6/9/2007 11:06:26 PM Central Daylight Time,
mwcreek@frontiernet.net writes:
If I bought a GRT EFIS, a couple of Garmin radios, transponder, autopilot,
etc., just how hard would it be to wire all of this together and get it to work?
>>>
I recently received a harness from Red Dog Aero at Conroe TX (CXO) for a
dual-Horizon, 430W, PMA8000B, TruTrak A/P, SL30 & GTX327 for under $3K. Remaining
connections were power/gnd, headset jacks, antennae, EIS4000 connects etc.
which you'd have to hook up anyway, but enough wire was integrated into the
harness to make all destinations. Looks like nice work so far, but haven't done
the smoke test yet. Talk to Dick Stevens at: _http://reddogaero.com/_
(http://reddogaero.com/)
John Stark in Columbus GA does similar work with a good reputation and I hear
is competitive price-wise.
_http://www.starkavionics.com/products.htm_
(http://www.starkavionics.com/products.htm)
Might want to give these folks a holler...
Mark
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 25
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| Subject: | How hard to wire panel-Approach HUB |
My thoughts on the Approach System and wiring your own panel:
1. Everything goes into and then out of the "Hub". I would prefer that
some items be wired direct, for instance the cdi to navcom, instead of from the
cdi to the Hub and then to the navcom, or from the encoder to Hub to
transponder vs. encoder to transponder direct.
2. From the Approach website, cost for my panel: Pro Hub 589; PSE audio
panel to hub 99; Intercom cable 99; Garmin GNC300 to Hub 149; Ki 202 Cdi
to hub 99; ;Annunciator to hub 149; Kns80 to hub 149; KI 206 cdi to Hub
99; Icom 200 to hub 99; Txpr to hub 79; Enc. to hub 79; The 202 and 206
aren't listed so I used the regular cdi price, I assume the connectors and
pins f?or these would be additional cost since they are special., I'm guessing
75 per cable more. So, estimated $1611 list price before discounts for the
above, maybe the smaller Hub will work, .
3. I bought a premade $200 harness for the audio panel/marker
beacon/intercom. I kept the audio inputs wires separate from the intercom wiring
so that
I can upgrade avionics later without cutting into the intercom wiring (there
is one common ground commection, however). I did have to put the other
"output" ends on for the garmin, kns80 and will on Icom; dsubs and molex, about
16 in all. The encoder came with its own harness, took me about an hour to
put the transponder end and gps end is just 1 wire (d-subs). You would
save the time of the encoder wiring and 16 dsubs/molex connectors by using the
HUB.
3. As already mentioned, you still are left with the antennas cable
connections, power, ground, breakers, lights, dimmer, ptt, and other switches,
whether you use the HUB or not.
4. My wiring experience is 8 track stereo and keeping a small office
network and telephone lines working, and old cars running, and household wiring.
Mostly A to B, not much theory.
This is my first aircraft project. You will need at least the antenna and
amp crimpers even if you use the HUB, and I can't imagine not having a dsub
crimper anyway. I have a hard time with the molex pins.
5. I would verify wire layouts before powering up, whether I used HUB or
not. So not much time savings unless you just plug and play.
6. I might buy a harness for the cdi's, estimate $200 for 2 and I will
insert into the connectors myself.
7. Of course the big benefit to the HUB is future upgrades are just a cable
change away. Good luck. Skip
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Message 26
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| Subject: | SPA-400 intercom |
Bob,
I have fried several resistors/diodes (don't ask, lets just say the
previous professional approved installation choice of protection had
something to do with it) in the unit to the point I can not tell what
they are or their values. There is a cluster of 4 passives, a diode,
capacitor, ? and ? located just behind the on/off switch on the
board. Would you have access to a schematic or and old unit to help
me determine what they are. They will be easy to replace and repair
the unit.
Thanks
Bob
Message 27
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| Subject: | Need a wiring diagram |
Hello Dale,
You have to register to view the Maintenance Manuals, but not the
Installation Manuals toward the bottom of the page. I attached the
Install Manual for the 3000-11 ELT remote switch from that site.
I had hoped to be done before OSH, but that's a huge stretch given the
current pace.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Fultz
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Need a wiring diagram
<dfultz7@earthlink.net>
Thanks Bill ,, I tried that route ,, you have to register to view the
files
which I did but still haven't been able to access the file I need to
view. I
am running out of time was trying to get done to make Oshkosh. Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "William Gill" <wgill10@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Need a wiring diagram
> <wgill10@comcast.net>
>
> Dale,
>
> Try this link: http://www.pointeravionics.com/manual.php
>
> Bill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Dale
> Fultz
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 1:29 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Need a wiring diagram
>
> <dfultz7@earthlink.net>
>
> Does anyone have a wiring diagram for a Pointer 3000-11 Elt for the
> remote
> switch. I bought a used one it came wired however there is two small
> wires
> on at each end of the harness that were cut I need to find out if they
> need
> connected together or connected to power and ground... Thanks Dale
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) |
These arguments would not be so pointless if we adhered to the policy of simply
labeling fallacious arguments. I suggest the following list:
1. Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man)
2. Affirming The Consequent
3. Amazing Familiarity
4. Ambiguous Assertion
5. Appeal To Anonymous Authority
6. Appeal To Authority
7. Appeal To Coincidence
8. Appeal To Complexity
9. Appeal To False Authority
10. Appeal To Force
11. Appeal To Pity (Appeal to Sympathy, The Galileo Argument)
12. Appeal To Widespread Belief (Bandwagon Argument, Peer
Pressure, Appeal To Common Practice)
13. Argument By Emotive Language (Appeal To The People)
14. Argument By Fast Talking
15. Argument By Generalization
16. Argument By Gibberish (Bafflement)
17. Argument By Half Truth (Suppressed Evidence)
18. Argument By Laziness (Argument By Uninformed Opinion)
19. Argument By Personal Charm
20. Argument By Pigheadedness (Doggedness)
21. Argument By Poetic Language
22. Argument By Prestigious Jargon
23. Argument By Question
24. Argument By Repetition (Argument Ad Nauseam)
25. Argument by Rhetorical Question
26. Argument By Scenario
27. Argument By Selective Observation
28. Argument By Selective Reading
29. Argument By Slogan
30. Argument From Adverse Consequences (Appeal
To Fear, Scare Tactics)
31. Argument From Age (Wisdom of the Ancients)
32. Argument From Authority
33. Argument From False Authority
34. Argument From Small Numbers
35. Argument From Spurious Similarity
36. Argument Of The Beard
37. Argument To The Future
38. Bad Analogy
39. Begging The Question (Assuming The
Answer, Tautology)
40. Burden Of Proof
41. Causal Reductionism (Complex Cause)
42. Changing The Subject (Digression, Red Herring,
Misdirection, False Emphasis)
43. Cliche Thinking
44. Common Sense
45. Complex Question (Tying)
46. Confusing Correlation And Causation
47. Disproof By Fallacy
48. Equivocation
49. Error Of Fact
50. Euphemism
51. Exception That Proves The Rule
52. Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty
Dilemma, Bifurcation)
53. Extended Analogy
54. Failure To State
55. Fallacy Of Composition
56. Fallacy Of Division
57. Fallacy Of The General Rule
58. Fallacy Of The Crucial Experiment
59. False Cause
60. False Compromise
61. Genetic Fallacy (Fallacy of Origins, Fallacy of Virtue)
62. Having Your Cake (Failure To Assert, or Diminished Claim)
63. Hypothesis Contrary To Fact
64. Inconsistency
65. Inflation Of Conflict
66. Internal Contradiction
67. Least Plausible Hypothesis
68. Lies
69. Meaningless Questions
70. Misunderstanding The Nature Of Statistics
71. Moving The Goalposts (Raising The Bar, Argument By
Demanding Impossible Perfection)
72. Needling
73. Non Sequitur
74. Not Invented Here
75. Outdated Information
76. Pious Fraud
77. Poisoning The Wells
78. Psychogenetic Fallacy
79. Reductio Ad Absurdum
80. Reductive Fallacy (Oversimplification)
81. Reifying
82. Short Term Versus Long Term
83. Slippery Slope Fallacy (Camel's Nose)
84. Special Pleading (Stacking The Deck)
85. Statement Of Conversion
86. Stolen Concept
87. Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension)
88. Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque, You Too)
89. Weasel Wording
And I am not kidding. By the way, I am on George's side in this. I sell a NON-crowbar
OV module, and have indured Bob's ire on many occassions so now I post
only infrequently.
"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem...."
-Thomas Szasz
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones@charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=117707#117707
Message 29
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| Subject: | RE: Alternator Load-Dump |
At 11:40 AM 6/10/2007 +1000, you wrote:
><peterjfharris@bigpond.com>
>
>Bob,
>I don't know how you have the patience to suffer that kind of uninformed
>rhetoric when it is aimed at your totally generous and valuable work.
A wise man suggested to me some years ago that I have absolute
and total control over what some folks would find insulting. He observed
that good critical review is factual, logical and worthy of considered
attention. Tossed cabbages representing illogical thought, erroneous
ideas or vindictive intent are the tools of those who simply can not
or choose not to behave honorably. It's perfectly okay to ignore them.
It's also okay to offer what you can as teacher to correct errors. But
to expend emotional capital on such individuals is a wasted effort. I.e,
don't
give anyone permission to insult you. I KNOW that the gentleman who
considered me to be a bully is simply wrong and if he is interested,
I'd be pleased to correct his erroneous assumption. But if he chooses
not to, I'm not going to loose any sleep over it . . . nor will I bother
to expend any emotional capital on the matter.
It's truly amazing how calming this philosophy can be.
>
>I have a couple more also uninformed questions re the operation of the crow
>bar ie when it trips as in Z-21A and Z-25 are we not interrupting the B lead
>and likely to cause load dumping.? If the PM alternator/regulator is runaway
>and the crowbar tripped would we expect that energy to cook what is left of
>the regulator?
No. Your query focused on PM alternators and the same principles
apply but let's explore the skinny on load-dump in the general
case for wound-field alternators.
Suppose you're given a rope to hold that has a string of 1# weights
attached to it. You're asked to hold your arm out horizontal
and maintain it as close to horizontal as you can no matter
what. Suppose someone then cuts away the bottom weight. The force
necessary to hold the horizontal position is suddenly reduced by
1 pound. It takes a bit for your senses to detect the reduction
in weight so your presently applied force momentarily lifts the
remaining weights until you've hand time to adjust to a new,
lighter force and restore your arm to horizontal.
Now, suppose we cut away 5 of the weights. It's intuitively
obvious that the momentary upward transient during this adjustment
would be larger than the demonstrated excursion for the 1 pound
adjustment.
Translating this useful analogy to an alternator (or any other
servo controlled power generation source), let's assume
a 60A alternator is loaded to 10A. This requires so many amps
of field flux and rpm to support the load at the desired setpoint
of say 14.2 volts. Now, let's suddenly reduce the load to zero
and it's easy to see how the regulator (deliberately damped for
smooth response) will take a few milliseconds to sense the rise
in output voltage and adjust the field current as need to restore
order. The little "bump" in output voltage is the effect of a
10A load dump.
Now, load the same alternator to 60 amps and repeat the experiment.
It's intuitively obvious that the voltage "bump" in the second
experiment will be substantially greater than the first experiment.
In the piece I posted at . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Adapting_IR_Alternators_to_Aircraft.pdf
consider the first diagram Z-24. We could establish a design goal
of being able to turn the IR alternator OFF and ON at will just as
the ER alternators and generators have behaved before them. So
let's take the crowbar OV module out.
Note that the act of turning the alternator OFF physically
disconnects the alternator from the ship's load and from
the battery. The transient mitigating qualities of load cited
by George have been isolated. Further, the transient mitigating
qualities of the battery (attributed to "benign" regulator
failure by George) are also gone.
EVERY engine driven power source will demonstrate some "bump"
in output-terminal voltage depending on a combination of alternator
rpm, load at the time the disconnect occurs and most importantly,
the DYNAMICS of the regulator-alternator combination in responding
to a sudden rise in output voltage.
For some combinations, this can be a substantial transient
rising to 40v or more for tens of milliseconds.
Now, it's my best guess that a stock automotive alternator/
regulator of reputable design is capable of withstanding
its own shortcomings with respect to load dump response. However,
if the alternator has been repaired . . . particularly with a
regulator not designed with the same dynamics AND ability to
stand off it's own load dump response, then there is risk that
folks who shut the alternator off under load will experience
exactly the event cited by Van's customers.
What is not well understood by the most vocal critics is that
damage to the alternator was NOT caused by the crowbar OV
protection system but by the transient instability of the
alternator/regulator combination combined with a vulnerability
to products of that instability.
It may very well be that factory stock alternators would not
suffer this indignity . . . don't know. I don't have the
resources to test them all nor will any of the designers
share such data. After all, they would much rather we not
put this product in an airplane at at!
We can now choose to put the crowbar OV module back into
the circuit and the same contactor intended to provide
CONTROL now contributes to the task of OV protection as
well. Critics would have you believe I've suggested that
the IR alternator is somehow "bad" or "inferior". Not so.
They are fine, very reliable products . . . but the failure
rates are not known unless one chooses to restrict their
alternator choices to those devices KNOWN to exhibit
what ever failure rate the installer considers acceptable.
My goal is to take any alternator and install it in an
airplane with CONTROL and OV Protection . . . the very
same design goals we've worked toward since the first generator
and battery went into an airplane. This isn't about who's
good, who's bad, which alternator is better, or who is
willing to fly not having met those design goals. Certainly,
many OBAM aircraft are flying without having achieve those
goals and most owners will suffer no deleterious consequences.
But the risks are not insignificant (ten to the minus 6 failures
per flight hour).
However, depending on a whole raft of indeterminable variables
not the least of which is the pedigree of the particular
alternator, it will require some thoughtful experimentation
and design exemplified by the second schematic in the piece
cited above.
For the Z-figures you cited, the load dump phenomenon for
unhooking a PM alternator under load is still present and
it MIGHT present a hazard to the regulator . . . don't know
and it's unlikely that we'll have an opportunity to craft
the repeatable experiment to find out.
However, whether you're working with and IR alternator installed
per the original Z-24 or the proposed Z-24A or a PM alternator
wired per any of the Z-figures. There's no need to switch
a loaded alternator OFF except for unusual cases that are
controlled by circumstances for which the CONTROL and OV
Protection systems were crafted in the first place. Having
offered that, it's also my belief that your risks are quite
low compared to the situation that started this thread
some years ago when builders DID unload their alternators
and DID experience failures which were NOT a design flaw
in the proposed OV protection system.
My suggestion is that you install as depicted in the Z-figures
and refrain from idle switch-flipping while knowing that
you have the control and protections cited in the design
goals.
Bob . . .
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: SPA-400 intercom |
At 10:41 PM 6/10/2007 -0400, you wrote:
><citabriapilot@comcast.net>
>
>Bob,
> I have fried several resistors/diodes (don't ask, lets just say the
>previous professional approved installation choice of protection had
>something to do with it) in the unit to the point I can not tell what
>they are or their values. There is a cluster of 4 passives, a diode,
>capacitor, ? and ? located just behind the on/off switch on the
>board. Would you have access to a schematic or and old unit to help
>me determine what they are. They will be easy to replace and repair
>the unit.
>Thanks
>Bob
I'm sorry. I don't have access to the resources necessary
to be useful. You might call the folks at Sigtronics. It's
been years since my last conversation with them and I recall
that they were friendly and helpful. They may not supply a
schematic but if you sent them a picture of the damaged area
of the board, they might suggest repairs. Alternatively,
I seem to recall that they had some pretty reasonable flat-rates
for repairs. I'd recommend you start there.
Bob . . .
Message 31
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| Subject: | how hard is it to wire a panel |
I am just about finished mine so am in a good position to comment. I also
trained as an electrician & have spent plenty of time working on large
industrial control panels - how hard can it be!!.
I started mine at the end of March & thought it would take me a month. Funny
that huh. If you go the standard route then maybe 100 hrs would be OK, I was
at Pacific Coast Avionics the other day speaking to the guy who does the
panels for Glastar's 2 weeks to taxi program. He has got them down to 90 hrs
& does it on a frame out of the aircraft. For a 1st timer at least 2 maybe
three times as long. My panel has AFS 35 & 3400, TT A/Pilot, GNS 430 with a
Garmin Transponder & Audio Panel. When I bought the Avionics I had Stark
wire the interconnects for the Avionics, I have changed it a little since I
moved some of the kit added more. Then at the last moment I added a Icom
A200. All this rests on a Fiberglass panel with Aluminum Inserts. At our
hanger I have seen 6 panels done by Aerotronics, they arrive tested with a
manual & are hooked up in about 3 days with Cannon plugs & they really are
1st class. You can spend tonnes of time chasing wire, special pins, tools
etc etc. I spent half a day on Friday trying to get hold of the tech dept of
the traffic monitor I installed, trying to make the thing beep so I can test
the Audio circuit. Also I have 26 circuit breakers, 14 rocker switches & I
still haven't painted the inserts, installed the transfers & clear coated
the finished product.
It's been interesting doing it but adding anything takes a lot of extra
time, I suppose if you are doing a very basic panel & didn't care too much
about how it looked then you could do it really quick but its what you are
going to spend your time looking at. Maybe save some money on the paint job
& have it done for you.
Anyway hope that helps
Stephen
RV7 N570Z
Wiring - nearly done
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why |
not?)
At 08:01 PM 6/10/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>These arguments would not be so pointless if we adhered to the policy of
>simply labeling fallacious arguments. I suggest the following list:
>
>1. Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man)
>2. Affirming The Consequent
>3. Amazing Familiarity
<snip>
>87. Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension)
>88. Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque, You Too)
>89. Weasel Wording
>
>And I am not kidding. By the way, I am on George's side in this. I sell a
>NON-crowbar OV module, and have indured Bob's ire on many occassions so
>now I post only infrequently.
Your list of rhetorical floobydust offers no enlightenment
or understanding. If it's your intent to stir up anything
other than mystified amusement then you've shot yourself
in the foot. If you're NOT kidding, then you ARE embarrassing.
I'm aware of no shortcomings in the design of your product
or your business practices in marketing it. It was mentioned
in my response to George's latest crap-dump because HE cited
it first as an alternative to "Bob's Alternator Killing OV Protection
System". Your offering avoided being "Eric's Alternator Killing OV
Protection System" because you did not embrace the design
goal for CONTROL and left out the switch. The point being that
damage to the alternator(s) had nothing to do with style
of OV protection . . . or even whether or not OV protection
was installed. It had to do with a desire to effect orderly
CONTROL over an alternator that could not be controlled without
committing suicide by load-dump overshoot.
If you have an argument on any mater of logic or fact
in any posting I've made with respect to George's posts or your
own, then cite it and refute it. If you cannot compete in
the arena of logical assemblage of simple-ideas, then pick
another arena. Step up to the bar and behave like a talented
designer or go find a bar where folks enjoy wallowing in
ideas like that which you cite below . . .
>"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
>injury to one's self-esteem...."
> -Thomas Szasz
B.S.
We've spoken about this guy's outlook on life and society
before. See my post of 11/23/2006. If you perceive this individual's
ideas as valuable anchors for honorable behavior and optimistic
endeavor, then your future and the future of those who revere your
teachings is in doubt. Szasz is about as inspirational to honorable
folks as Brush Hog driver at a flower show.
Bob . . .
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) |
You guys crack me up! What exactly makes any of you believe George is an
alias? I've been hanging around these forums for years and have yet to se
e anything that points to that.
I think there are some aliens in a desert somewhere for ya too.
Do not archive
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of S. Ramirez
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 6:52 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and wh
y not?)
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr
ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 7:11 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why no
t?)
Take care, God Bless
George (the 1st) ATP,CFI-II-ME, MSME, B7375767, RV-4/7
George,
Just out of curiosity, what is your real first and last name and where do y
ou live? It would be nice to know who everyone is on these lists.
Simon Ramirez, Aerocanard Builder
LEZ N-44LZ
Oviedo, FL 32765 USA
Copyright (c) 2007
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