---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/11/07: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:28 AM - How hard is it to wire a panel? (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 2. 12:28 AM - How hard is it to wire a panel? (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 3. 05:01 AM - GX-65 apollo error msg (Robert Feldtman) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: GX-65 apollo error msg (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 06:48 AM - Re: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (Ernest Christley) 6. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 7. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Bill Steer) 9. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 10. 08:42 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (6440 Auto Parts) 11. 08:44 AM - Re: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? (Ernest Christley) 12. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 09:29 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:58 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 16. 10:04 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest:Runaway Trim (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 17. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Chuck Jensen) 18. 10:40 AM - Re: SL-30 discontinued.....NOT (Buckaroo Banzai) 19. 10:44 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel (Doug Baleshta) 20. 11:51 AM - Re: How hard is it to wire a panel () 21. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Kevin Horton) 22. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) (Ed Mueller) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:17 AM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? As one who wanted and looked forward to doing all the wiring myself (after spending several years doing sheet metal work), I will tell you Michael that this task is NON-TRIVIAL. I'm just putting the finishing touches on my all UPS AT (now Garmin) full IFR electrical system. I attended the very first seminar that Bob gave, it was way back in 1996 in Portland Oregon (I understand that Bob now presents a lot more material in the latest seminars). Ten years later, my airplane was sitting on the landing gear in a hangar with the wings on and no wiring. So I set up my old Pentium II computer with Windowa98 and Autocad 2000 and start working on my drawings. I bought Bob's latest Aeroelectric Connection book and also picked up his CD. I used the Autocad drawings on Bob's CD as a starting point and went to work. It took 1.5 to 2 months of nights and weekends to create the wire book with all my gear in it. In that time I also had to decide on how to implement some of the custom things I put in my airplane/panel (warning lights, E-bus, Elect Ign, AOA etc) , get questions answered and get them in the schematics. This list was invaluable for getting things ironed out (the equipment vendors were very helpful too). The Autocad exercise (drawing the schematics) forced me to understand how every piece of gear was supposed to work so that it was wired correctly, the FIRST TIME. From there we started spending time at the hangar again, a fair amount of time was spent making my own panel mount with removable instrument panel on the right side and engine monitoring on the left, as well as a lower subpanel for the switches/breakers/engine controls and air vents (there is a company that makes these modular panels for RV-7/9/10 I don't know about the -8, I have an RV-6 so had to do my own, more time less money). Once all the instrument cutouts were made, the instruments were mounted and whole assembly temporarily installed to get a feel for wire routing and lengths. For me quite a bit of time was spent looking at what I equipment I had vs forward fuselage structure and how I would route and secure the wiring to make the cleanest install. Summer was spent working the VM-1000 wiring install which had problems to solve on both sides of the firewall. Finally got the two harnesses made up(appx 40+ wires plus installing pins and connectors, crimping and soldering, after, I figured out how the routing was going to go and installed the cushion clamps etc in the airframe). Early fall spent on figuring basic power and ground wiring and routing and installing with the appropriate clamps and securing hardware. Late fall and early winter was spent on the radio stack, by far the most work intensive. Several evenings marking, crimping and soldering and installing wire into connectors. I also spent weekends working on wiring IN the airplane. I bought about $1000 worth of wiring, tools and associated stuff, mostly from Stienair and B&C. Around January of this year I was finally to a point that I took the instruments out of the panel and took all the panel parts down to a powder coater for final color. It took about two weeks and although powder coat finish isn't quite as smooth as paint, it's tough as nails. So, back to the airplane and install radio trays and remainder of the wires behind the panel. All the radio finish wiring and routing and installing terminals, soldering etc has taken the last few months of my spare time. I still have a dozen wires left but they are already run and just need to install terminals/pins and connect. It's been a fairly long journey for me. And to put some perspective on it you should get some data points from other builders too. I have been working on this RV-6A for 10.5 years and it looks like it will finally fly this year. It's been a little frustrating because the average build time was touted as 4 years (slow build kit, not prepunched) and I have not done much flying since I started the build. I'm probably a bit out of the norm as many people have built them in a lot less time and I admittedly have set a goal to do the best job I can (even though I'm not looking to have the airplane be an award winner) which has meant I probably took more time on things than most people, electrical included (most people I talk to have an avionics shop do some basic harness build up, I did NOT). A few price points from my experiences. As I said, I bought about $1000 of stuff from Steinair and B&C for this (I'm not including the B&C alternator and regulator in this cost). If you are planning anything other than basic VFR panel, do NOT get the wiring kit from Vans, you'll need lots more than what they supply and you'll end up reworking most of their harness, a waste. When I was in Portland, our EAA chapter had the folks at Pacific Coast Avionics come by and talk to us. This was appx 5-6 years ago and at that time VFR panels started at $10k and IFR panels started at $30k if Pacific Coast did all the work (seemed like a lot to me then, not now). I looked at the approach systems at Sun N Fun a couple years ago and again $1500 just for the radios seemed like a lot (not any more). And finally Steinair started doing panel harnesses full time so I got a quote for around $2k from them, again just for the radio stack. Off the top of my head I would say my time spent on the wiring portion this past year is 300-500 hours (that should put the $7k in labor into perspective, but my labor includes installing in the airplane and theirs probably doesn't). So that's a data point from someone who had to do EVERYTHING in his airplane. Would I do it again, probably not. I have missed flying a lot, it was a great stress reliever when I was working on my IFR ticket but I couldn't get the airplane I wanted without building it myself. Since the RVs are all prepunch these days I know I could build a new airframe in short order. I would however, seriously consider the approachfaststack or even a partially built harness from Steinair or an Avionics shop, especially if you don't have the time or another airplane to fly and you want to get in the air quicker. If you are on a tight budget you CAN do everything, you just have to commit the time. Somedays I spent several hours trying to get coax cables routed secured and made up (making sure the ends were prepared properly so the connectors will go together and doing a test piece if I hadn't done the operation before or not familiar with the type of connector) and wondered if the airplane would ever get done(it will). If you enjoy the building process and are not intimidated by electrons then by all means have at it. This list and Bobs book and training should give you the tools you need if you're ready for the challenge. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Electrons about to flow __________________________ Original Message________________________________ >MLWynn@aol.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? >Hi all, >.......I spoke with a shop that does plug and play panels to your >specification. They told me it would be a $7000 in labor to have them wire >up the panel. While there are certainly some advantages to having the >panel wired, tested and ready to go, that is a lot of shekels. So I would >like to put out the question to those who have done this: >If I bought a GRT EFIS, a couple of Garmin radios, transponder, autopilot, >etc., just how hard would it be to wire all of this together and get it to >work? >Would one of Bob's seminars teach me all I needed to know to do this? Michael Wynn ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:18 AM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? As one who wanted and looked forward to doing all the wiring myself (after spending several years doing sheet metal work), I will tell you Michael that this task is NON-TRIVIAL. I'm just putting the finishing touches on my all UPS AT (now Garmin) full IFR electrical system. I attended the very first seminar that Bob gave, it was way back in 1996 in Portland Oregon (I understand that Bob now presents a lot more material in the latest seminars). Ten years later, my airplane was sitting on the landing gear in a hangar with the wings on and no wiring. So I set up my old Pentium II computer with Windowa98 and Autocad 2000 and start working on my drawings. I bought Bob's latest Aeroelectric Connection book and also picked up his CD. I used the Autocad drawings on Bob's CD as a starting point and went to work. It took 1.5 to 2 months of nights and weekends to create the wire book with all my gear in it. In that time I also had to decide on how to implement some of the custom things I put in my airplane/panel (warning lights, E-bus, Elect Ign, AOA etc) , get questions answered and get them in the schematics. This list was invaluable for getting things ironed out (the equipment vendors were very helpful too). The Autocad exercise (drawing the schematics) forced me to understand how every piece of gear was supposed to work so that it was wired correctly, the FIRST TIME. From there we started spending time at the hangar again, a fair amount of time was spent making my own panel mount with removable instrument panel on the right side and engine monitoring on the left, as well as a lower subpanel for the switches/breakers/engine controls and air vents (there is a company that makes these modular panels for RV-7/9/10 I don't know about the -8, I have an RV-6 so had to do my own, more time less money). Once all the instrument cutouts were made, the instruments were mounted and whole assembly temporarily installed to get a feel for wire routing and lengths. For me quite a bit of time was spent looking at what I equipment I had vs forward fuselage structure and how I would route and secure the wiring to make the cleanest install. Summer was spent working the VM-1000 wiring install which had problems to solve on both sides of the firewall. Finally got the two harnesses made up(appx 40+ wires plus installing pins and connectors, crimping and soldering, after, I figured out how the routing was going to go and installed the cushion clamps etc in the airframe). Early fall spent on figuring basic power and ground wiring and routing and installing with the appropriate clamps and securing hardware. Late fall and early winter was spent on the radio stack, by far the most work intensive. Several evenings marking, crimping and soldering and installing wire into connectors. I also spent weekends working on wiring IN the airplane. I bought about $1000 worth of wiring, tools and associated stuff, mostly from Stienair and B&C. Around January of this year I was finally to a point that I took the instruments out of the panel and took all the panel parts down to a powder coater for final color. It took about two weeks and although powder coat finish isn't quite as smooth as paint, it's tough as nails. So, back to the airplane and install radio trays and remainder of the wires behind the panel. All the radio finish wiring and routing and installing terminals, soldering etc has taken the last few months of my spare time. I still have a dozen wires left but they are already run and just need to install terminals/pins and connect. It's been a fairly long journey for me. And to put some perspective on it you should get some data points from other builders too. I have been working on this RV-6A for 10.5 years and it looks like it will finally fly this year. It's been a little frustrating because the average build time was touted as 4 years (slow build kit, not prepunched) and I have not done much flying since I started the build. I'm probably a bit out of the norm as many people have built them in a lot less time and I admittedly have set a goal to do the best job I can (even though I'm not looking to have the airplane be an award winner) which has meant I probably took more time on things than most people, electrical included (most people I talk to have an avionics shop do some basic harness build up, I did NOT). A few price points from my experiences. As I said, I bought about $1000 of stuff from Steinair and B&C for this (I'm not including the B&C alternator and regulator in this cost). If you are planning anything other than basic VFR panel, do NOT get the wiring kit from Vans, you'll need lots more than what they supply and you'll end up reworking most of their harness, a waste. When I was in Portland, our EAA chapter had the folks at Pacific Coast Avionics come by and talk to us. This was appx 5-6 years ago and at that time VFR panels started at $10k and IFR panels started at $30k if Pacific Coast did all the work (seemed like a lot to me then, not now). I looked at the approach systems at Sun N Fun a couple years ago and again $1500 just for the radios seemed like a lot (not any more). And finally Steinair started doing panel harnesses full time so I got a quote for around $2k from them, again just for the radio stack. Off the top of my head I would say my time spent on the wiring portion this past year is 300-500 hours (that should put the $7k in labor into perspective, but my labor includes installing in the airplane and theirs probably doesn't). So that's a data point from someone who had to do EVERYTHING in his airplane. Would I do it again, probably not. I have missed flying a lot, it was a great stress reliever when I was working on my IFR ticket but I couldn't get the airplane I wanted without building it myself. Since the RVs are all prepunch these days I know I could build a new airframe in short order. I would however, seriously consider the approachfaststack or even a partially built harness from Steinair or an Avionics shop, especially if you don't have the time or another airplane to fly and you want to get in the air quicker. If you are on a tight budget you CAN do everything, you just have to commit the time. Somedays I spent several hours trying to get coax cables routed secured and made up (making sure the ends were prepared properly so the connectors will go together and doing a test piece if I hadn't done the operation before or not familiar with the type of connector) and wondered if the airplane would ever get done(it will). If you enjoy the building process and are not intimidated by electrons then by all means have at it. This list and Bobs book and training should give you the tools you need if you're ready for the challenge. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Electrons about to flow __________________________ Original Message________________________________ >MLWynn@aol.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? >Hi all, >.......I spoke with a shop that does plug and play panels to your >specification. They told me it would be a $7000 in labor to have them wire >up the panel. While there are certainly some advantages to having the >panel wired, tested and ready to go, that is a lot of shekels. So I would >like to put out the question to those who have done this: >If I bought a GRT EFIS, a couple of Garmin radios, transponder, autopilot, >etc., just how hard would it be to wire all of this together and get it to >work? >Would one of Bob's seminars teach me all I needed to know to do this? Michael Wynn ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:18 AM PST US From: "Robert Feldtman" Subject: AeroElectric-List: GX-65 apollo error msg Got a msg - internal battery fail - turn unit off and return for service..... Kept working fine, book says either high or low volts can cause this - I was looking at the volts - 14.6 the whole time - it is rated from 10-40 volts. I expect the garmin tech rep will say to send it in. Any experience with this error message out there? It's my only panel mounted comm/gps and hat the pull it out if not need be. thanks bobf ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:28 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: GX-65 apollo error msg This one's in the archives - somewhere...I had this issue a year or so ago. Yes - they said send it in and they'll replace the battery - it was criminally expensive. Next time, I'll quietly replace it myself.... -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Feldtman >Sent: Jun 11, 2007 7:59 AM >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: GX-65 apollo error msg > >Got a msg - internal battery fail - turn unit off and return for >service..... Kept working fine, book says either high or low volts can cause >this - I was looking at the volts - 14.6 the whole time - it is rated from >10-40 volts. I expect the garmin tech rep will say to send it in. Any >experience with this error message out there? It's my only panel mounted >comm/gps and hat the pull it out if not need be. > >thanks > >bobf ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:26 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? MLWynn@aol.com wrote: > > I am about six months away from the panel wiring. You will probably > hear from me again on the subject. Again my thanks > > Michael Wynn > RV 8 Fuselage > San Ramon, CA One of the things that takes a lot of time when doing the wiring is swapping tools. You measure out a wire. Clip it. Strip it. Crimp a connector. One wire at at time. You spend more time swapping tools than running wire. It will go faster if you cut a bunch of wires then sit down in front of the TV. Strip all the ends at one time. Then crimp connectors, all at one time. You waste a little more wire, but not excessively so. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:16 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) Bob, I realize this is your list to do as you see fit. But really, could you three keep your overblown rhetoric BS between you guys and out of everyone else's view. I mean come on this is a bit much! Quite frankly every personal attack, whether from you, George, or whoever, eats into each other's credibility. I hate to tell you this but your over reaching use of language is no more or less "floobydust" or "enlightening" than Eric's or George's. I mean really, do we need timeouts or something on the list so everyone act's just a bit more civil? You ever hear the old saying about arguing on the Internet because it is really starting to apply when you and George go at it. Now, would you guys just agree to disagree, buy each other a beer like normal adults, and give it a rest already. Geeze -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 12:07 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) At 08:01 PM 6/10/2007 -0700, you wrote: > >These arguments would not be so pointless if we adhered to the policy of >simply labeling fallacious arguments. I suggest the following list: > >1. Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man) >2. Affirming The Consequent >3. Amazing Familiarity >87. Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension) >88. Two Wrongs Make A Right (Tu Quoque, You Too) >89. Weasel Wording > >And I am not kidding. By the way, I am on George's side in this. I sell a >NON-crowbar OV module, and have indured Bob's ire on many occassions so >now I post only infrequently. Your list of rhetorical floobydust offers no enlightenment or understanding. If it's your intent to stir up anything other than mystified amusement then you've shot yourself in the foot. If you're NOT kidding, then you ARE embarrassing. I'm aware of no shortcomings in the design of your product or your business practices in marketing it. It was mentioned in my response to George's latest crap-dump because HE cited it first as an alternative to "Bob's Alternator Killing OV Protection System". Your offering avoided being "Eric's Alternator Killing OV Protection System" because you did not embrace the design goal for CONTROL and left out the switch. The point being that damage to the alternator(s) had nothing to do with style of OV protection . . . or even whether or not OV protection was installed. It had to do with a desire to effect orderly CONTROL over an alternator that could not be controlled without committing suicide by load-dump overshoot. If you have an argument on any mater of logic or fact in any posting I've made with respect to George's posts or your own, then cite it and refute it. If you cannot compete in the arena of logical assemblage of simple-ideas, then pick another arena. Step up to the bar and behave like a talented designer or go find a bar where folks enjoy wallowing in ideas like that which you cite below . . . >"Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an >injury to one's self-esteem...." > -Thomas Szasz B.S. We've spoken about this guy's outlook on life and society before. See my post of 11/23/2006. If you perceive this individual's ideas as valuable anchors for honorable behavior and optimistic endeavor, then your future and the future of those who revere your teachings is in doubt. Szasz is about as inspirational to honorable folks as Brush Hog driver at a flower show. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:50 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? At 09:46 AM 6/11/2007 -0400, you wrote: > > >MLWynn@aol.com wrote: >> >>I am about six months away from the panel wiring. You will probably hear >>from me again on the subject. Again my thanks >> >>Michael Wynn >>RV 8 Fuselage >>San Ramon, CA > >One of the things that takes a lot of time when doing the wiring is >swapping tools. You measure out a wire. Clip it. Strip it. Crimp a >connector. One wire at at time. You spend more time swapping tools than >running wire. > >It will go faster if you cut a bunch of wires then sit down in front of >the TV. Strip all the ends at one time. Then crimp connectors, all at >one time. You waste a little more wire, but not excessively so. This can work well when building a bundle of same-length wires. I have access to machines that will spool off wires cut to specific lengths and stripped to specific lengths at both ends. The last time I was able to use this machine was about ten years ago. The problem is that few wiring tasks within the project are bundles of same length wires. Even when building something like a harness with multiple branches and different connectors on each end, one seldom encounters a lot of wires prepared exactly the same way. For example, I ALWAYS leave long pigtails on a bundle that goes to a large (37 or 50 pin) d-sub because the wires that come out of the bundle to central pins are shorter than wires that connect to the outside pins. If you want your wires to lay in orderly bundles and make graceful exits to their final attach points, the only way I've found is to cut, strip and terminate after the wire's pathway is life is fixtured. In production we have machines that not only measure, cut and strip wires . . . it installs the appropriate terminal/pin on each end and marks the wire with it's numbering according to the engineering callouts. Even in this environment, production can and does tailor the lengths of wires to the nearest 0.1" so as to achieve the nice lay of strands in the finished producdt. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:23 AM PST US From: Bill Steer Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) Actually, it isn't Bob's list, it's Matt's list. I belong to several lists, and this is the only one where almost all traffic is focused on one individual. All of the other lists are communities of similarly-interested individuals who share ideas and help each other solve problems. Yes, they get off on tangents and yes, they have disagreements, but very seldom are there personal attacks and juvenile name-calling incidents. Bill RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > > Bob, I realize this is your list to do as you see fit. But really, could you three keep your overblown rhetoric BS between you guys and out of everyone else's view. I mean come > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:34 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) Yep, I agree it's Matt's list. Been there done that. Nearest I have come on that hunt is to say it's Matt owned, Bob run. It's funny that George can coexist fairly happily on other lists but this one it's like WWIII. It's a water/oil scenario that the key players just have to shake up every 2-3 months. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) Actually, it isn't Bob's list, it's Matt's list. I belong to several lists, and this is the only one where almost all traffic is focused on one individual. All of the other lists are communities of similarly-interested individuals who share ideas and help each other solve problems. Yes, they get off on tangents and yes, they have disagreements, but very seldom are there personal attacks and juvenile name-calling incidents. Bill RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > > Bob, I realize this is your list to do as you see fit. But really, could you three keep your overblown rhetoric BS between you guys and out of everyone else's view. I mean come > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:15 AM PST US From: "6440 Auto Parts" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? I bought most of my avionics from Stark and had them prewire as much of it as they could. I gave them approximate measurements. GRT also sent me their units somewhat prewired. Some of it is double wired by both companies. I have sorted through the maze but have yet to get started on the final wiring. It does not appear to be that big of a deal putting it all together this way. Just have to trim some wires, repin others and cut the intercom ends down to length and put the ends on and mount the jacks. I think stark charged me around $800 and I believe GRT threw it in as part of the deal. This included a 3 GRT mfd, PMA8000b, GTX330, SL30, Trutrak DG2,. I have never wired a panel before but have some experience with wiring industrial panels. It is still intimidating looking at the bundle of wiring to deal with but if taken one at a time being careful to make sure of the pin out then it does'nt look all that bad. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel Creek To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:02 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? Michael, I just asked the same question on the GRT Yahoo list. What I gathered from those responses is that the wiring is fairly easy; just go one wire at a time. I also understood it takes quite some time to complete the wiring, hence the $7k quote which compares to quotes I received. Assuming a shop rate of $65/hr, that equates to over 100 hours for someone that does it day in and day out. I don't know about you, but I estimated it would take me at least twice that long since my experience/proficiency is low. Another option is to use the Approach Systems Fast Stack (http://www.approachfaststack.com/index.html). Everyone I contacted who had actually used this system and is flying with it was very positive about the time saved, quality of the work, customer service, and how well their avionics are working and ease of upgrades. I heard rumors of a few customers that said they wouldn't use it again, but when I contacted them directly, I got nothing but glowing reviews. Several of the builders I contacted were very experienced and one was on his 12th plane. I'm not recommending this as I have no experience with it, but it is another option to consider. I was quoted about $1,200 for a GRT dual sport system with Garmin radios and TT AP. You would still have to take care of all the DC wiring, however. Mike Creek Elko, NV Bearhawk, QB ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MLWynn@aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 7:05 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? Hi all, I am finishing the airframe of my RV 8 and want to install an IFR panel. I have been looking at various glass panel options. I spoke with a shop that does plug and play panels to your specification. They told me it would be a $7000 in labor to have them wire up the panel. While there are certainly some advantages to having the panel wired, tested and ready to go, that is a lot of shekels. So I would like to put out the question to those who have done this: If I bought a GRT EFIS, a couple of Garmin radios, transponder, autopilot, etc., just how hard would it be to wire all of this together and get it to work? Would one of Bob's seminars teach me all I needed to know to do this? Regards, Michael Wynn RV 8 Fuselage San Ramon, CA ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:08 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: How hard is it to wire a panel? Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> One of the things that takes a lot of time when doing the wiring is >> swapping tools. You measure out a wire. Clip it. Strip it. Crimp >> a connector. One wire at at time. You spend more time swapping >> tools than running wire. >> >> It will go faster if you cut a bunch of wires then sit down in front >> of the TV. Strip all the ends at one time. Then crimp connectors, >> all at one time. You waste a little more wire, but not excessively so. > > This can work well when building a bundle of same-length wires. > I have access to machines that will spool off wires cut to > specific lengths and stripped to specific lengths at both ends. > The last time I was able to use this machine was about ten > years ago. The problem is that few wiring tasks within the > project are bundles of same length wires. I don't think I conveyed the suggestion very well. The idea is to cut all the wire at some random measurement, like maybe 3ft. That's what I meant by wasting wire. You do all the connectors on one side, leaving the other hanging. Yeah, sort of a critical point, but it's not the biggest dufus screw-up I've made today (dang these stupid Cisco routers). > > > For example, I ALWAYS leave long pigtails on a bundle that > goes to a large (37 or 50 pin) d-sub because the wires that > come out of the bundle to central pins are shorter than > wires that connect to the outside pins. In this case, strip and crimp 50 wires while comfortably waving at the neighbors from your front porch. Maybe even populate the connector if you're labeling the wires anyway. Install the connector, temporarily route all the wires, then cut each to length. Now take the connector back to the front porch and crimp the pins to the other side. I do the same when building a circuit board. Don't install one component at a time. Stick a bunch in, bending the legs at a 45 angle to hold them in place. Snip all the excess lead lengths. Then come back with the iron and solder a bunch at once. The time saved in rigging the part, clip the lead, picking up the iron, cleaning it, then switching back to the previous mode is considerable. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) At 09:46 AM 6/11/2007 -0500, you wrote: > > > Bob, I realize this is your list to do as you see fit. But really, > could you three keep your overblown rhetoric BS between you guys and out > of everyone else's view. I mean come on this is a bit much! Quite > frankly every personal attack, whether from you, George, or whoever, eats > into each other's credibility. I hate to tell you this but your over > reaching use of language is no more or less "floobydust" or > "enlightening" than Eric's or George's. I mean really, do we need > timeouts or something on the list so everyone act's just a bit more > civil? You ever hear the old saying about arguing on the Internet > because it is really starting to apply when you and George go at it. > > Now, would you guys just agree to disagree, buy each other a beer like > normal adults, and give it a rest already. Geeze I'd be pleased to do that . . . but my antagonists choose to make pronouncements on me personally and professionally and then wrap themselves in cloaks of "free speech in a public forum". But I'll suggest that I am obligated to defend myself and to expose bad science and poor logic. I would have "given it a rest" except that individuals involved continue to stoke the fires. If you cannot perceive the difference between my attempts to discuss the art and science of our art and their attempts to make me the bad guy for disagreeing with their unsubstantiated opinions, I'd be pleased to help you understand. As ever and always, take any statement I've made and show me where it's wrong. This isn't about George and Bob, it's about irrefutable truths, the simple-ideas upon which we base good products. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) At 11:00 AM 6/11/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >Actually, it isn't Bob's list, it's Matt's list. I belong to several >lists, and this is the only one where almost all traffic is focused on one >individual. All of the other lists are communities of >similarly-interested individuals who share ideas and help each other solve >problems. Yes, they get off on tangents and yes, they have disagreements, >but very seldom are there personal attacks and juvenile name-calling incidents. > >Bill I restricted my conduct under the notion of this being a public forum on Matt's system for a number of years before I came to realize that the problematic individuals were no different than unruly students in a classroom who are free to cause any manner of trouble they choose without consequences to themselves. Public school teachers are forced to accommodate unruly children in the spirit of "diversity of thought and deed in a public service environment." The byproduct of loss of command and control in the classroom is now obvious as two generations of students struggle to even survive much less thrive in an increasingly technical world. A few months ago I decided that if my service to this community was to achieve the greatest value, I would have to take back command and control of this classroom. George and others were politely asked to leave. Yes, they stepped outside but continue to toss tomatoes and cabbages in through the windows and doors. Before you start pasting me with that public-servant-in- an-open-forum brush, I'll invite you to study the exchanges in the items I've posted. Not one word offered by my antagonists advances a simple idea nor do they offer considered critical review a single invention based on demonstrable and measurable simple-ideas. This isn't about achieving consensus on the science . . . science stands on its own and requires nobody's consensus. If you perceive an error in my offering of the science, I'd be pleased to hear about it. But if you're simply defending some perceived right of individuals to make lots of noise, graffiti the walls and leave their beer cans behind, you're not going to get any sympathy or support from me. . . . and I will continue to defend both my person and the decorum in this classroom. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) At 11:00 AM 6/11/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >Actually, it isn't Bob's list, it's Matt's list. I belong to several >lists, and this is the only one where almost all traffic is focused on one >individual. All of the other lists are communities of >similarly-interested individuals who share ideas and help each other solve >problems. Yes, they get off on tangents and yes, they have disagreements, >but very seldom are there personal attacks and juvenile name-calling incidents. > >Bill I restricted my conduct under the notion of this being a public forum on Matt's system for a number of years before I came to realize that the problematic individuals were no different than unruly students in a classroom who are free to cause any manner of trouble they choose without consequences to themselves. Public school teachers are forced to accommodate unruly children in the spirit of "diversity of thought and deed in a public service environment." The byproduct of loss of command and control in the classroom is now obvious as two generations of students struggle to even survive much less thrive in an increasingly technical world. A few months ago I decided that if my service to this community was to achieve the greatest value, I would have to take back command and control of this classroom. George and others were politely asked to leave. Yes, they stepped outside but continue to toss tomatoes and cabbages in through the windows and doors. Before you start pasting me with that public-servant-in- an-open-forum brush, I'll invite you to study the exchanges in the items I've posted. Not one word offered by my antagonists advances a simple idea nor do they offer considered critical review a single invention based on demonstrable and measurable simple-ideas. This isn't about achieving consensus on the science . . . science stands on its own and requires nobody's consensus. If you perceive an error in my offering of the science, I'd be pleased to hear about it. But if you're simply defending some perceived right of individuals to make lots of noise, graffiti the walls and leave their beer cans behind, you're not going to get any sympathy or support from me. . . . and I will continue to defend both my person and the decorum in this classroom. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:57 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel Let me jump in here with a huge "DITTO"... When I started wiring, GRT, TruTrak, 2x ICOM's, Dynon, XPDR, I knew nothing about it except how to change a wall outlet. Good friend Bob Haan suggested Bob's book and I never looked back. Using Z-11 as a basis and excellent/free schematic software from _http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm_ (http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm) I wired my now-flying RV-6a. I've had a couple glitches and the schematics prove invaluable. No guessing which wire does what as they are all marked on the schematic as well as the wire itself. HTH, Jerry Cochran From: David Abrahamson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? oh and... without Bob's book, I would have had no choice but to throw myself on the mercy of a panel builder -- and would have had an infinitely harder time setting up a working electrical system. I used Z12 and have been very happy with it. D ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:31 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest:Runaway Trim Having experienced the vagaries of electric trim in a shared RV-6a, and finding it difficult to get the trim "just right", I opted for manual trim on my new -6a. Very easy to get perfect and no worries about runaway. Makes me wonder why so many opt for the more complex and maybe unreliable electric version. Of course, the manual adds a tad more weight... Jerry Cochran From: "Dennis Johnson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Runaway Trim I have a Ray Allen Company (RAC) trim servo on each of the three trim tabs on my Lancair Legacy. When I was doing my electrical design, I talked with one of the principals at RAC, who claimed that the design of the servo makes "runway" within the servo impossible. Since almost anything is possible, I interpreted his statement to mean that it was very unlikely. I think the most likely way to get runaway trim in my airplane is a stuck trim switch. I expect that physically forcing the switch to the opposite position would likely unstick the switch and allow control of the trim tab until landing. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) From: "Chuck Jensen" Michael, There's a significant difference between this list and many of the other aeroplanes lists where "people coexist and is not dominated by any individual." Electrical system, electronics, avionics, et al, are technical, even highly technical area in which very few at well educated (by experience as well as schooling) and have the knowledge, experience and expertise to hold forth with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Unfortunately, there are far fewer than most believe...including themselves. Many of the other sites will go into a frenzy over which is the best primer to use. Well, dozens, even hundreds have experience, some even knowledge, to hold forth. By comparison, the number of individuals with useful, accurate electrical knowledge is a sharply smaller population. Accordingly, the more technical a discussion or forum, the fewer people have beneficial information/data to offer. Unfortunately, that doesn't inhibit many others from offering their version of the truth. We all benefit from having two or three arbiter of what's right and with offerings of philosophy of design and problem solving. Electrical design is not necessarily a pluralistic endeavor, so if one or two dominant, its for good reason. Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 11:34 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) --> Yep, I agree it's Matt's list. Been there done that. Nearest I have come on that hunt is to say it's Matt owned, Bob run. It's funny that George can coexist fairly happily on other lists but this one it's like WWIII. It's a water/oil scenario that the key players just have to shake up every 2-3 months. Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Steer Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 10:00 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) --> Actually, it isn't Bob's list, it's Matt's list. I belong to several lists, and this is the only one where almost all traffic is focused on one individual. All of the other lists are communities of similarly-interested individuals who share ideas and help each other solve problems. Yes, they get off on tangents and yes, they have disagreements, but very seldom are there personal attacks and juvenile name-calling incidents. Bill RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > --> > > Bob, I realize this is your list to do as you see fit. But really, > could you three keep your overblown rhetoric BS between you guys and > out of everyone else's view. I mean come > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:28 AM PST US From: Buckaroo Banzai Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SL-30 discontinued.....NOT Lest the FAA get the wrong impression from your question, many of us still use VORs for enroute navigation. At least, in the IFR system where a VFR GPS can't legally be used for navigation. Greg Dean, The SL-70 has been long discontinued. A final note to you is that the last medical that you pass will have dust on it before the final ILS system is decommissioned. So I think the Nav portion of you Nav/Com will get use well into the future. Besides, other then approaches who still continues to use VOR for enroute navigation today other then backup? Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 11:05 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: SL-30 discontinued.....NOT Sorry about the false alarm folks, I meant to say that Garmin has discontinued the SL-70 transponder, NOT the SL-30 Nav/Com. The SL-30 is a real winner and Garmin knows that so they're going to keep it around for a while (at least until all the VORs get decommissioned then it'll only be good for com). Dean -- 3:15 PM --------------------------------- Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:36 AM PST US From: "Doug Baleshta" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel Hi, one of my anti-virus programs is showing this program infected with Malware - Adware.Win32.DM.I Does anyone one else have experience with this? (It was downloaded from the West Coast Server). Doug >>> Jerry2DT@aol.com 11/06/2007 9:56 am >>> Let me jump in here with a huge "DITTO"... When I started wiring, GRT, TruTrak, 2x ICOM's, Dynon, XPDR, I knew nothing about it except how to change a wall outlet. Good friend Bob Haan suggested Bob's book and I never looked back. Using Z-11 as a basis and excellent/free schematic software from http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm I wired my now-flying RV-6a. I've had a couple glitches and the schematics prove invaluable. No guessing which wire does what as they are all marked on the schematic as well as the wire itself. HTH, Jerry Cochran From: David Abrahamson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? oh and... without Bob's book, I would have had no choice but to throw myself on the mercy of a panel builder -- and would have had an infinitely harder time setting up a working electrical system. I used Z12 and have been very happy with it. D See what's free at AOL.com. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel From: I might add.. After talking to Lanciar, Stark and Stien etc. etc and getting generally scared off by their pricing, I looked locally and found a very good avionics shop who was willing to work with me and didn't require I ship things back and forth to as well as guess measurements etc. Buy your stuff, drill the holes and mount everything yourself. Now, buy as many of the GRT/Dynon or whatever pre-made harnesses you can find. From there a good shop will charge you a much more reasonable fee to hook it up. Look locally, you'll find a great technician who has all the know how and someone you can go back to if there is a problem. In the end you will learn a little about the art, save a bunch of money, make your own decisions and be assured of reading a minimum number of eMails on this website to fix problems that are keeping you on the ground. This concept may also reduce smoke in the cockpit. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Baleshta Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 1:43 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel Hi, one of my anti-virus programs is showing this program infected with Malware - Adware.Win32.DM.I Does anyone one else have experience with this? (It was downloaded from the West Coast Server). Doug >>> Jerry2DT@aol.com 11/06/2007 9:56 am >>> Let me jump in here with a huge "DITTO"... When I started wiring, GRT, TruTrak, 2x ICOM's, Dynon, XPDR, I knew nothing about it except how to change a wall outlet. Good friend Bob Haan suggested Bob's book and I never looked back. Using Z-11 as a basis and excellent/free schematic software from http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm I wired my now-flying RV-6a. I've had a couple glitches and the schematics prove invaluable. No guessing which wire does what as they are all marked on the schematic as well as the wire itself. HTH, Jerry Cochran From: David Abrahamson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How hard is it to wire a panel? oh and... without Bob's book, I would have had no choice but to throw myself on the mercy of a panel builder -- and would have had an infinitely harder time setting up a working electrical system. I used Z12 and have been very happy with it. D ________________________________ See what's free at AOL.com . ist">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List ics.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:25 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) On 11 Jun 2007, at 10:46, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: > Sausen)" > > Bob, I realize this is your list to do as you see fit. But > really, could you three keep your overblown rhetoric BS between you > guys and out of everyone else's view. I mean come on this is a bit > much! Quite frankly every personal attack, whether from you, > George, or whoever, eats into each other's credibility. I hate to > tell you this but your over reaching use of language is no more or > less "floobydust" or "enlightening" than Eric's or George's. I > mean really, do we need timeouts or something on the list so > everyone act's just a bit more civil? You ever hear the old saying > about arguing on the Internet because it is really starting to > apply when you and George go at it. > > Now, would you guys just agree to disagree, buy each other a beer > like normal adults, and give it a rest already. Geeze There is an easy solution for anyone who is really bothered by the intermittent back and forth between gmcjetpilot and Bob - create a filter in your e-mail program that sends any message with the word "gmcjetpilot" to the trash. You'll never see any of this stuff again. If you enjoy the technical comments that gmcjetpilot makes, and only really get your knickers in a twist when he and Bob go at it, then craft the filter such that both "gmcjetpilot" and "nuckolls" have to be in the message before it gets deleted. Don't expect someone else to solve the problem for you - use the tools at your disposal. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:43 PM PST US From: Ed Mueller Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: George is still at it . . . (yep and why not?) Hi Bob, Great job. Built some Heathkits 40 years ago (I was 13) and have stayed interested (hobbyist) in electrics/electronics since. Keep up the good work. I completely agree with your views on the educational system. As a business owner I get job apps that are TERRIBLE. One high school graduate couldn't even spell the name of the city correctly where he lives and the business is based. Errors everywhere in the applications. I about fell off my chair laughing at the quote about brush hogs. "Szasz is about as inspirational to honorable folks as Brush Hog driver at a flower show" Ed Mueller RV10 Builder About fell off my chair On Jun 11, 2007, at 1:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Szasz is about as inspirational to honorable > folks as Brush Hog driver at a flower show ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.