Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:10 AM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 07:11 AM - Re: Antenna doubler plate - prime or not (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:41 AM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Matt Prather)
4. 09:25 AM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Ken)
5. 10:28 AM - Re: Rear-Battery version of Z-19 (n707sm)
6. 06:24 PM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:47 PM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Alan Adamson)
8. 06:49 PM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Alan Adamson)
9. 06:54 PM - RTV sealants (bob mackey)
10. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Rear-Battery version of Z-19 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:17 PM - Re: Regulator trouble? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Regulator trouble? |
At 07:09 PM 6/17/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I've got more info now, but I'm not sure what it means. I wired up a jack
>as per Bob's suggestion and can read field voltage on the VOM in flight. I
>also changed the setpoint on the regulator by about 1 turn on the
>adjustment screw. The downloaded installation instructions said that
>should be about 2 tenths of a volt. It had been running about 14.6. The
>regulator turns out to be an LR3B-14 not the C model I reported
>previously. I don't know how much difference that makes.
>
>When started, the voltage ran right at 14.4, exactly as expected after the
>adjustment. The field was about 3.5 to 4.5 volts at idle. I'm using a
>digital VOM because it's what I have, so it jumps around a bit. With
>strobe, landing/taxi and position lights on and at idle, the buss came
>down to about 14.1 and the field rose to about 7 or 8 volts. Load was
>around 17 amps by my meter.
>
>In flight the numbers were pretty similar except that the buss never fell
>much below 14.4 no matter what I did with the lights. The field ran
>somewhere in the 4ish range with no lights and around 8 with. After about
>30 minutes of flying, the buss was at 14.5. When I taxied in, it was 14.7
>at idle which I don't understand at all. The field breaker did not blow today.
>
>I'm in watch and wait mode for now.
Excellent data! . . . and pretty much as expected. Let's review
the significance:
First, there are no differences between the B & C revisions of this
regulator that would affect the phenomenon under investigation.
(1) "With strobe, landing/taxi and position lights on and at idle,
the buss came down to about 14.1 and the field rose to about
7 or 8 volts."
(a) The maximum possible range for field voltages is 0 to bus
voltage . . . or a little below bus voltage because the
pass transistor doesn't turn on with zero-volt drop. We
would NEVER expect to see field voltage at ZERO during
any set of normal operating conditions . . . ZERO field
is ZERO output. The only time we would expect to see zero
output is if something was broke.
(b) The slight drop with load is within expectations.
(c) The field voltage reading of 7-8 volts at idle tells us
that your alternator's output is about half used up for
this RPM and load conditions. As we noted above, the field
cannot rise to more than about 14 volts and under the test
conditions cited, you were already half way there.
(2) "Load was around 17 amps by my meter."
(a) Is this an alternator loadmeter? In other words, the 17A
reading is the alternator output current for the conditions
cited?
(3) "In flight the numbers were pretty similar except that the
buss never fell much below 14.4 no matter what I did with
the lights."
(a) Every regulator designer is pleased to hear this. The
goal is to craft electronics that maintains the bus at the
established set-point irrespective of load. So, for field
voltages greater than zero and less than bus voltage, we would
expect the bus voltage to stay put under any load that does
not cause the field voltage to max out.
(4) "The field ran somewhere in the 4ish range with no lights
and around 8 with."
(a) What size alternator is this? I think you mentioned a
35A machine? Again, the reading of about 8 volts with loads
on (and assuming the same 17A of output) that the alternator's
output is about 1/2 used up.
If this were my research project, I'd throw a little 200 samples
per second data acquisition system (Snipe trap) on the field, bus
volts and bus amps. Then I'd go fly the airplane and attempt to
induce a trip by manipulation of controls for electrical system loads.
Okay, your snipe catching sack is in hand and your flashlight
(field volts indicator) is charged up. What we would hope to
capture is what the field voltage is doing just prior and/or
during a trip event. On the next flight, you'll want to "fiddle
with the switches and things" while observing field voltage and
see if you can induce a trip.
The readings you've cited are strong indications that the system
is/was performing as-designed during the period of your observations.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Antenna doubler plate - prime or not |
My personal preference is to have NO RTV exposed in
the final installation. All sealing should occur in
the protected environment between two relatively flat
and tightly clamped surfaces. After the bolts are torqued,
wipe away all excess RTV that might ooze out from between
the antenna and ship's skin.
Bob . . .
>You might consider using a paintable sealant rather than RTV.
>
>Regards,
>
>Greg Young
>
> >
> > I didn't like the way the cork gasket looked anyway......RTV rocks!
> >
> > Thanks Bob!
> >
> > Ralph
> >
>
>
>--
>8:23 AM
>
>
>incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may )
( give some practical results, but )
( that's not why we do it." )
( )
( Richard P. Feynman )
----------------------------------------
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Subject: | Re: Regulator trouble? |
If trying to induce a trip, maybe it would make sense to run the test
early in the morning when the OAT is low so as to help the alternator put
out maximum snort? Does this regulator bump the voltage set point in
response to low temperature (temperature compensated)?
Regards,
Matt-
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 07:09 PM 6/17/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I've got more info now, but I'm not sure what it means. I wired up a jack
>>as per Bob's suggestion and can read field voltage on the VOM in flight.
>> I
>>also changed the setpoint on the regulator by about 1 turn on the
>>adjustment screw. The downloaded installation instructions said that
>>should be about 2 tenths of a volt. It had been running about 14.6. The
>>regulator turns out to be an LR3B-14 not the C model I reported
>>previously. I don't know how much difference that makes.
>>
>>When started, the voltage ran right at 14.4, exactly as expected after
>> the
>>adjustment. The field was about 3.5 to 4.5 volts at idle. I'm using a
>>digital VOM because it's what I have, so it jumps around a bit. With
>>strobe, landing/taxi and position lights on and at idle, the buss came
>>down to about 14.1 and the field rose to about 7 or 8 volts. Load was
>>around 17 amps by my meter.
>>
>>In flight the numbers were pretty similar except that the buss never fell
>>much below 14.4 no matter what I did with the lights. The field ran
>>somewhere in the 4ish range with no lights and around 8 with. After about
>>30 minutes of flying, the buss was at 14.5. When I taxied in, it was 14.7
>>at idle which I don't understand at all. The field breaker did not blow
>> today.
>>
>>I'm in watch and wait mode for now.
>
>
> Excellent data! . . . and pretty much as expected. Let's review
> the significance:
>
> First, there are no differences between the B & C revisions of this
> regulator that would affect the phenomenon under investigation.
>
> (1) "With strobe, landing/taxi and position lights on and at idle,
> the buss came down to about 14.1 and the field rose to about
> 7 or 8 volts."
>
> (a) The maximum possible range for field voltages is 0 to bus
> voltage . . . or a little below bus voltage because the
> pass transistor doesn't turn on with zero-volt drop. We
> would NEVER expect to see field voltage at ZERO during
> any set of normal operating conditions . . . ZERO field
> is ZERO output. The only time we would expect to see zero
> output is if something was broke.
>
> (b) The slight drop with load is within expectations.
>
> (c) The field voltage reading of 7-8 volts at idle tells us
> that your alternator's output is about half used up for
> this RPM and load conditions. As we noted above, the field
> cannot rise to more than about 14 volts and under the test
> conditions cited, you were already half way there.
>
> (2) "Load was around 17 amps by my meter."
>
> (a) Is this an alternator loadmeter? In other words, the 17A
> reading is the alternator output current for the conditions
> cited?
>
> (3) "In flight the numbers were pretty similar except that the
> buss never fell much below 14.4 no matter what I did with
> the lights."
>
> (a) Every regulator designer is pleased to hear this. The
> goal is to craft electronics that maintains the bus at the
> established set-point irrespective of load. So, for field
> voltages greater than zero and less than bus voltage, we would
> expect the bus voltage to stay put under any load that does
> not cause the field voltage to max out.
>
> (4) "The field ran somewhere in the 4ish range with no lights
> and around 8 with."
>
> (a) What size alternator is this? I think you mentioned a
> 35A machine? Again, the reading of about 8 volts with loads
> on (and assuming the same 17A of output) that the alternator's
> output is about 1/2 used up.
>
> If this were my research project, I'd throw a little 200 samples
> per second data acquisition system (Snipe trap) on the field, bus
> volts and bus amps. Then I'd go fly the airplane and attempt to
> induce a trip by manipulation of controls for electrical system
> loads.
>
> Okay, your snipe catching sack is in hand and your flashlight
> (field volts indicator) is charged up. What we would hope to
> capture is what the field voltage is doing just prior and/or
> during a trip event. On the next flight, you'll want to "fiddle
> with the switches and things" while observing field voltage and
> see if you can induce a trip.
>
> The readings you've cited are strong indications that the system
> is/was performing as-designed during the period of your observations.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Regulator trouble? |
I have a slightly different take on this as it seems there might already
be some clues here.
Shouldn't the field voltage go above 8 volts when the alternator is
loaded on the ground. If it is putting out less that 14.4 volts at low
rpm - why isn't the field voltage up around 12 or 13? High resistance
somewhere in the field?
Next I'd want to know why 14.7 volts while taxiing in. Is the regulator
voltage going up when it is hot? Does it not throttle back far enough
under light load? Is there a connection that is high resistance when
hot such that the regulator is sensing 14.4 but putting out 14.7
upstream where the voltmeter is located? Or is it an inaccurate voltmeter?
If the connections have already been checked, I'd be tempted to
temporarilly wire in a cheap regulator and see what happens.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 07:09 PM 6/17/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>> I've got more info now, but I'm not sure what it means. I wired up a
>> jack as per Bob's suggestion and can read field voltage on the VOM in
>> flight. I also changed the setpoint on the regulator by about 1 turn
>> on the adjustment screw. The downloaded installation instructions
>> said that should be about 2 tenths of a volt. It had been running
>> about 14.6. The regulator turns out to be an LR3B-14 not the C model
>> I reported previously. I don't know how much difference that makes.
>>
>> When started, the voltage ran right at 14.4, exactly as expected
>> after the adjustment. The field was about 3.5 to 4.5 volts at idle.
>> I'm using a digital VOM because it's what I have, so it jumps around
>> a bit. With strobe, landing/taxi and position lights on and at idle,
>> the buss came down to about 14.1 and the field rose to about 7 or 8
>> volts. Load was around 17 amps by my meter.
>>
>> In flight the numbers were pretty similar except that the buss never
>> fell much below 14.4 no matter what I did with the lights. The field
>> ran somewhere in the 4ish range with no lights and around 8 with.
>> After about 30 minutes of flying, the buss was at 14.5. When I taxied
>> in, it was 14.7 at idle which I don't understand at all. The field
>> breaker did not blow today.
>>
>> I'm in watch and wait mode for now.
>
>
> Excellent data! . . . and pretty much as expected. Let's review
> the significance:
>
> First, there are no differences between the B & C revisions of this
> regulator that would affect the phenomenon under investigation.
>
> (1) "With strobe, landing/taxi and position lights on and at idle,
> the buss came down to about 14.1 and the field rose to about
> 7 or 8 volts."
>
> (a) The maximum possible range for field voltages is 0 to bus
> voltage . . . or a little below bus voltage because the
> pass transistor doesn't turn on with zero-volt drop. We
> would NEVER expect to see field voltage at ZERO during
> any set of normal operating conditions . . . ZERO field
> is ZERO output. The only time we would expect to see zero
> output is if something was broke.
>
> (b) The slight drop with load is within expectations.
>
> (c) The field voltage reading of 7-8 volts at idle tells us
> that your alternator's output is about half used up for
> this RPM and load conditions. As we noted above, the field
> cannot rise to more than about 14 volts and under the test
> conditions cited, you were already half way there.
>
> (2) "Load was around 17 amps by my meter."
>
> (a) Is this an alternator loadmeter? In other words, the 17A
> reading is the alternator output current for the conditions
> cited?
>
> (3) "In flight the numbers were pretty similar except that the
> buss never fell much below 14.4 no matter what I did with
> the lights."
>
> (a) Every regulator designer is pleased to hear this. The
> goal is to craft electronics that maintains the bus at the
> established set-point irrespective of load. So, for field
> voltages greater than zero and less than bus voltage, we would
> expect the bus voltage to stay put under any load that does
> not cause the field voltage to max out.
>
> (4) "The field ran somewhere in the 4ish range with no lights
> and around 8 with."
>
> (a) What size alternator is this? I think you mentioned a
> 35A machine? Again, the reading of about 8 volts with loads
> on (and assuming the same 17A of output) that the alternator's
> output is about 1/2 used up.
>
> If this were my research project, I'd throw a little 200 samples
> per second data acquisition system (Snipe trap) on the field, bus
> volts and bus amps. Then I'd go fly the airplane and attempt to
> induce a trip by manipulation of controls for electrical system
> loads.
>
> Okay, your snipe catching sack is in hand and your flashlight
> (field volts indicator) is charged up. What we would hope to
> capture is what the field voltage is doing just prior and/or
> during a trip event. On the next flight, you'll want to "fiddle
> with the switches and things" while observing field voltage and
> see if you can induce a trip.
>
> The readings you've cited are strong indications that the system
> is/was performing as-designed during the period of your observations.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Rear-Battery version of Z-19 |
Hi Bob,
In Z-19/RB, it's called out to use 6" or less 12AWG between the Main and Engine
Battery contactors and their respective busses. Without building a special mount
for this, I could locate these busses close to the contactors but I would
probably need about 15" of wire each. Would your suggestion be to go to 10AWG
in this case?
Thank you again :D
Best Regards,
Michael
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=119155#119155
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Regulator trouble? |
At 09:33 AM 6/18/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>
>If trying to induce a trip, maybe it would make sense to run the test
>early in the morning when the OAT is low so as to help the alternator put
>out maximum snort? Does this regulator bump the voltage set point in
>response to low temperature (temperature compensated)?
The regulator is not compensated for battery ambient. It
is compensated for a close to zero temperature coefficient
as practical.
Ed also noted that the system tripped several times while
in cruising flight so it seems a low-order probability
that a first start of the day "cold test" would be any
more revealing.
Actually, given the numbers that Ed has cited, I'm
pretty much convinced that "catching" his Snipe is
going to be pretty tough with just a digital voltmeter.
The best we might hope for is that the field voltage
becomes jittery just before a nuisance trip when it
had been stable earlier.
Ed, you might consider getting an el-cheapo analog
meter from Radio Shack. See:
http://tinyurl.com/29yk5d
This instrument has a 15 volt DC range that is ideal
for this investigation. Right now, we're going to be
more interested in dynamics (steady vs. twitchy) as
opposed to knowing the actual reading.
In the mean time, my software guru is looking into
how hard it would be to do a quick turn on a little
4-channel, data acquisition system that would run off
a laptop. Ed, do you have a laptop computer you could
press into the service of Snipe Catching?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Regulator trouble? |
Bob, not sure they get much cheaper than this
http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di194rs.htm
They also have them for USB, but not sure of the cost... Also 12Bit version
are available.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator trouble?
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:33 AM 6/18/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>--> <mprather@spro.net>
>
>If trying to induce a trip, maybe it would make sense to run the test
>early in the morning when the OAT is low so as to help the alternator
>put out maximum snort? Does this regulator bump the voltage set point
>in response to low temperature (temperature compensated)?
The regulator is not compensated for battery ambient. It
is compensated for a close to zero temperature coefficient
as practical.
Ed also noted that the system tripped several times while
in cruising flight so it seems a low-order probability
that a first start of the day "cold test" would be any
more revealing.
Actually, given the numbers that Ed has cited, I'm
pretty much convinced that "catching" his Snipe is
going to be pretty tough with just a digital voltmeter.
The best we might hope for is that the field voltage
becomes jittery just before a nuisance trip when it
had been stable earlier.
Ed, you might consider getting an el-cheapo analog
meter from Radio Shack. See:
http://tinyurl.com/29yk5d
This instrument has a 15 volt DC range that is ideal
for this investigation. Right now, we're going to be
more interested in dynamics (steady vs. twitchy) as
opposed to knowing the actual reading.
In the mean time, my software guru is looking into
how hard it would be to do a quick turn on a little
4-channel, data acquisition system that would run off
a laptop. Ed, do you have a laptop computer you could
press into the service of Snipe Catching?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Regulator trouble? |
Here's the USB 10 bit version
http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di148.htm
And the USB 12 bit version http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di158.htm
Hope this helps... Still way cheaper than spending the time/effort to build
one and write the software.
Alan
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator trouble?
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:33 AM 6/18/2007 -0600, you wrote:
>--> <mprather@spro.net>
>
>If trying to induce a trip, maybe it would make sense to run the test
>early in the morning when the OAT is low so as to help the alternator
>put out maximum snort? Does this regulator bump the voltage set point
>in response to low temperature (temperature compensated)?
The regulator is not compensated for battery ambient. It
is compensated for a close to zero temperature coefficient
as practical.
Ed also noted that the system tripped several times while
in cruising flight so it seems a low-order probability
that a first start of the day "cold test" would be any
more revealing.
Actually, given the numbers that Ed has cited, I'm
pretty much convinced that "catching" his Snipe is
going to be pretty tough with just a digital voltmeter.
The best we might hope for is that the field voltage
becomes jittery just before a nuisance trip when it
had been stable earlier.
Ed, you might consider getting an el-cheapo analog
meter from Radio Shack. See:
http://tinyurl.com/29yk5d
This instrument has a 15 volt DC range that is ideal
for this investigation. Right now, we're going to be
more interested in dynamics (steady vs. twitchy) as
opposed to knowing the actual reading.
In the mean time, my software guru is looking into
how hard it would be to do a quick turn on a little
4-channel, data acquisition system that would run off
a laptop. Ed, do you have a laptop computer you could
press into the service of Snipe Catching?
Bob . . .
Message 9
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|
There were several recent recommendations for the use of
RTV (room temperature vulcanizing) elastic sealants.
Before putting this stuff near your airframe or avionics,
you should know that there are many different types of RTV,
and most of them are somewhat corrosive as a result of the
acetic-acid curing chemistry (smells like vinegar).
For mounting antennas to aluminum airframes, consider using an
alcohol-cure RTV such as clear or gray Dow Corning 3145, white
General Electric RTV 162 or gray high strength RTV 167, or clear
Loctite 5140.
These alcohol-cure RTVs are more expensive.
Instead of a buck or three, McMaster sells the GE 162 for $12.66
per 2.8 oz tube.
http://www.mcmaster.com (part number 74935A65, page 3305)
The Dow 3145 is quite a bit more expensive than that.
references:
http://www.logwell.com/tech/servtips/RTV.html
http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/appguide/appguide0205-1.pdf
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/silicones/cureguide-1part.html
... and of course Google...
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Rear-Battery version of Z-19 |
At 10:26 AM 6/18/2007 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>In Z-19/RB, it's called out to use 6" or less 12AWG between the Main and
>Engine Battery contactors and their respective busses. Without building a
>special mount for this, I could locate these busses close to the
>contactors but I would probably need about 15" of wire each. Would your
>suggestion be to go to 10AWG in this case?
That's not necessary. 12AWG is good for 15+ amps. I doubt that
you're going to have battery bus totals that exceed that
value!
That 6" "rule" is a real loose thing. Obviously a well
installed wire that's a bit longer isn't going to present
that much increase in crash safety hazard.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Regulator trouble? |
At 12:18 PM 6/18/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I have a slightly different take on this as it seems there might already
>be some clues here.
>
>Shouldn't the field voltage go above 8 volts when the alternator is loaded
>on the ground. If it is putting out less that 14.4 volts at low rpm - why
>isn't the field voltage up around 12 or 13? High resistance somewhere in
>the field?
The voltage will go that high only if one approaches the alternator's
maximum available output current for that RPM. In this case, he cites
a 17A load and ramp idle RPM.
>Next I'd want to know why 14.7 volts while taxiing in. Is the regulator
>voltage going up when it is hot? Does it not throttle back far enough
>under light load? Is there a connection that is high resistance when hot
>such that the regulator is sensing 14.4 but putting out 14.7 upstream
>where the voltmeter is located? Or is it an inaccurate voltmeter?
There's a ton of variables which can stack up to push the setpoint
around a bit . . . what we're interested in finding is an instability
that accounts for the nuisance trip of an OV protection system set to
operate at 16.2 volts or so.
>If the connections have already been checked, I'd be tempted to
>temporarilly wire in a cheap regulator and see what happens.
A cheap regulator wouldn't have the ov protection built in. It
WOULD be a useful experiment to temporarily wire in a substitute
regulator and a separate OV sensor. I think I've got some hardware
laying around we can send him if we don't see something really
profound . . . or he's unable to observe a field and bus voltage
surge associated with the nuisance trip.
Bob . . .
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