AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 07/07/07


Total Messages Posted: 7



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:59 AM - Electrical Risk ()
     2. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit (rd2@evenlink.com)
     3. 10:09 AM - Re: Electrical Risk (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 03:42 PM - Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? (mdharfst@comcast.net)
     5. 07:49 PM - Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? (Ron Quillin)
     6. 08:40 PM - Re: Electrical Risk ()
     7. 09:01 PM - Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas? (mdharfst@comcast.net)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:59:24 AM PST US
    From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Electrical Risk
    7/7/2007 Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, I recently became aware of an aircraft electrical event that I'd like your opinions on: 1) Situation: Type certificated aircraft. Day VFR, shut down for refueling at a field a short flying distance from home field (fuel is cheaper). Maintenance with significant delay until following week (this was Friday afternoon) was possible. Retrieval of pilots by third party driving automobile very awkward. 2) Upon starting attempt starter gave a brief bump to prop and then all electrical feed from the battery to the aircraft ceased. 3) Borrowed voltmeter and some poking around revealed that the battery had 24.8 volts available. 4) The main battery contactor ("Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189) would click once each time when the master battery switch was turned on, but no voltage would appear on the output terminal of the contactor. 5) Conclusion was reached that the main battery contactor had failed internally. 6) Solution applied was to use a battery jumper cable to bypass the main battery contactor. 7) The aircraft was then started with the key switch in a normal fashion. 8) Once the alternator started functioning, after the engine started running, electricity was available in a normal fashion. 9) The aircraft was flown to home base with normal electrical functioning, but with no battery available to either buffer / cushion the alternator output or provide electricity in case of alternator failure or opening of the 50 amp alternator feed line circuit breaker. 10) Flight risk was considered acceptable because a no electrical supply VFR landing could be made at either of two non towered airports in the vicinity. Questions are: A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by operating the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? If so, why? B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable substitute part? Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." PS: Could you please respond direct as well as to the list -- I only get the list digest so have a 24 hour delay. PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor (P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind.


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:02:36 AM PST US
    From: rd2@evenlink.com
    Subject: Re: Automatic Headlight Hi/Lo Fallover Circuit
    Hi all, not sure if there was an answer to Carlos' question, could not locate one. I'd be interested in the answer as well. Thanks Rumen _____________________Original message __________________________ (received from Carlos Trigo; Date: 08:54 PM 7/5/2007 +0100) ________________________________________________________________ <trigo@mail.telepac.pt> > I considered a variety of current sensing techniques for > the article but settled on the reed switch as the simplest > and most likely to be successfully assembled by a neophyte. > The last few circuits I designed that included a non-contact, > current sense feature used hall devices from Amploc. See: > > http://amploc.com/HANDBOOK%204.pdf > > I use these critters a lot when I need to grab a > medium quality current value from a wire in an airplane > where I need to avoid cutting into it for a shunt. > > Bob . . . Bob And with this critters as current sensors, which is the dedicated digital indicator we can use in our aircraft's instrument panel ? Carlos


    Message 3


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    Time: 10:09:23 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Electrical Risk
    At 07:55 AM 7/7/2007 -0400, you wrote: 7/7/2007 Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, I recently became aware of an aircraft electrical event that I'd like your opinions on: 1) Situation: Type certificated aircraft. Day VFR, shut down for refueling at a field a short flying distance from home field (fuel is cheaper). Maintenance with significant delay until following week (this was Friday afternoon) was possible. Retrieval of pilots by third party driving automobile very awkward. 2) Upon starting attempt starter gave a brief bump to prop and then all electrical feed from the battery to the aircraft ceased. 3) Borrowed voltmeter and some poking around revealed that the battery had 24.8 volts available. 4) The main battery contactor ("Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189) would click once each time when the master battery switch was turned on, but no voltage would appear on the output terminal of the contactor. 5) Conclusion was reached that the main battery contactor had failed internally. 6) Solution applied was to use a battery jumper cable to bypass the main battery contactor. 7) The aircraft was then started with the key switch in a normal fashion. 8) Once the alternator started functioning, after the engine started running, electricity was available in a normal fashion. 9) The aircraft was flown to home base with normal electrical functioning, but with no battery available to either buffer / cushion the alternator output or provide electricity in case of alternator failure or opening of the 50 amp alternator feed line circuit breaker. 10) Flight risk was considered acceptable because a no electrical supply VFR landing could be made at either of two non towered airports in the vicinity. Questions are: A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by operating the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? If so, why? Slightly. The alternator was running without benefit of a battery on line. If I were going to ferry a similarly afflicted aircraft, I would make a solid connection of battery relay, fat wires to bypass the battery relay. Without the battery, there is slight risk that a large, transient event (lowering the gear) could trigger an overshoot in the alternator's output response or stall the alternator and cause it to shut down. However, modern panel mounted electronics (DO-160 qualified) are 99+ percent okay with this . . . and the landing gear can be extended by hand. The totally risk-free ferry philosophy would be to start the engine, leave the electrical system cold. Leave the gear down and don't use flaps. It'a all a trade-off of options that should be left up to the knowledgeable pilot tasked with planning and executing the mission. B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" P/N 6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable substitute part? The 6041 series contactors are very much in production and still used both for spares and for new design. Like all such devices, they continue to fill a niche market where the designer realizes, "Sometimes the best way to drive the nail is with a hammer." Having said that, it's also true that the niche for these devices is narrowed compared to breadth of the DC power controls market and they're not as easily acquired. I did a google search on "6041H" and "contactor" and got only 17 hits . . . a few of which were suppliers. The catalog of variations on the theme for this part can be downloaded from http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Eaton_CH/ But let's noodle through the simple-ideas behind the notion that the el-cheeso relay is worthy of relegation to the scrap heap in favor of its more expensive and much rarer cousin . . . The el-cheeso contactor (RPM Controls, White-Rogers, Stancore) has been flying aboard light aircraft for about 70 years and in proportionately huge volumes compared to the "mil quality" device. If you ask any FBO mechanic how often they need to replace one of these things, you'll get, "Oh yeah, I've replaced a boat-load of those things!" But ask too how often he/she has replaced tires, batteries, spark plugs, etc and you'll no doubt hear, "I've replaced a boat load of those too." The point being that ALL things have a service life limit. Further, those limits are profoundly influenced by environment, operational stresses and out-of-the-ordinary abuse by technique and perhaps lack of preventative maintenance on the part of the owner/operator. Things like tires and plugs are replaced based on physical observation and/or periodic maintenance intervals. But somehow, things like batteries, contactors, switches and other components vulnerable to service-stresses are not so blessed with the mechanic's attention. This happens because there is (1) a lack of understanding as to how life limit on these parts is influenced, (2) determination of condition that goes beyond ordinary visual inspection (read labor and thought-intensive) and (3) an insanely aggravated cost-of- ownership generated from over-regulation by individuals demonstrably short on understanding. Yet we are loath to treat these components like spark plugs and put service life limits on them. At the same time we get our shorts in a bunch worrying about some failure to perform that generates a maintenance inconvenience (as cited above) or becomes the opening bars of the prelude for one's personal dark-n-stormy-night story. What's the first practical increment for elevating the comfort levels of ownership of the aircraft cited above? The writer cites multiple replacements of the battery contactor. Is this hard evidence of and inability of the contactor to perform? Hmmmm . . . there are hundreds of thousands of these same devices flying. While replacement RATES (Failures per flight hour) are probably higher than that of the high-dollar cousin, there's nothing to that indicates these parts don't yield an acceptable cost-of-ownership value. Two short-coupled failures of the contactor? Hmmmm . . . is it possible that there's an underlying operating stress that's shortening the life of the contactor? Maybe . . . probably not. These parts have a calculable and probably demonstrable mean time between failure. But when considering some cited MTBF number reveals an average service life. A small number of parts will go twice that value, a small number of parts will crap 10 hours out of the box. To make an upgrade decision without benefit of a detailed study of the physics and field experience is intellectually comforting . . . but the high-dollar part WILL also fail at some point in time. If all you seek is to push the inevitable out in time, then an upgrade is a perfectly rational thing to do. If you're REALLY more interested in reduced cost of ownership and/or canceling the show on your personal dark-n-stormy-night drama, then an alternate approach is indicated. First, how about treating this contactor like a spark plug? If you're willing to put $20 to $70 PER PLUG into an engine every so often, is it also reasonable to plan for $25 for a battery relay every so often as well? I had a conversation with a reader some years ago worried about getting stuck on a remote lake with his float plane. We decided it was a good thing to carry spare contactors and tools necessary for replacement. If it were my airplane, in addition to periodic preventative maintenance, the Avionics Master would become an e-bus alternate feed switch and a normal feed diode would be installed. Then I would be inoculated from both the in-flight failure scenario as well as the conundrum of "how to best ferry this airplane". Thanks. 'OC' Says: "The best investment we can make is the effort to gather and understand knowledge." Yup. There is no single "solution" that best fits the needs for all owner/operators and a host of options. PS: Could you please respond direct as well as to the list -- I only get the list digest so have a 24 hour delay. Done. PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor (P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind. Depending on how many hoops you're willing/forced to jump, there are other "upgrade" options. Consider: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf There are a lot of opportunities (but widely spaced and take $time$ to locate) for purchases. Some options to explore are . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf http://tinyurl.com/2usy58 http://tinyurl.com/3847kw http://www.warbirdrelics.com/Electrical.htm http://www.silindustries.com/_RefFiles/Capabilities%20List(19apr07).swf http://www.electrospec.com/electronic/components-parts/index599.html http://www.marineairsupply.com/index.html http://www.clarkreiss.com/Inventory/relays/rl-speci Of course, the one place guaranteed willing and able to supply such a part is the service-parts department of your local FBO. This presupposes that $time$ is no object. I think the lowest cost-of-ownership solution is to carry a spare contactor and tools necessary for replacement optionally combined with a shift of duties for the avionics master switch. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 03:42:02 PM PST US
    From: mdharfst@comcast.net
    Subject: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
    I have had a small nagging problem for several years since I started flying my plane. All my attempts to mitigate the problem have not solved it but have decreased the frequency. The basic problem is that the fuse that controls the firewall mounted starter solenoid occasionally blows. Since the fuse is under the glareshield it is a pain to change. Basically I am looking for ideas of what might be causing this to happen and how to test to see if that idea is the cause. This is a detailed description of my system. An O-320 engine with a Skytec lightweight starter, two Slick mags, B&C 40A alternator and B&C voltage regulator, a 17AH RG battery and master solenoid (S701-1) on the aft side of the firewall, a B&C starter solenoid (S702-1) on the forward side of the firewall, and a fuseblock under the glareshield. The big cables are #4 welding cable. The battery is 12" from the master solenoid. The master to starter solenoid cable is about 10" through the firewall. The plane is wired based on Bob's Z-11 drawing with the starter solenoid circuit set up like Z-22. I use the rotary keyed mag/starter switch from ASSC. Here is a description of the exact problem. I have a fused wire leading to the bat terminal of the keyed switch that activates the firewall mounted starter solenoid. The fuse is a 7.5A fuse. Occasionally the fuse blows during starter cranking and then has to be replaced. The first few times I replaced the fuse with another 7.5A fuse. The fuse would blow every couple of months, and might occur two or three times in a row when it happened. Also, it is tough to know exactly when the fuse blows. If it happens after the solenoid engages I might get it started but wont realize it is blown until I try to start it again for the return trip or maybe days later for the next trip. That makes it difficult to pin down associated factors. Here are a few things I've tried. Originally I figured the starter itself was sticking and causing the starter solenoid to overload so I put in a 10A fuse. This lowered the frequency of occurrence, to about once or twice a year, but did not totally eliminate it. I originally used the small light duty solenoid from B&C (the S704-1) which I thought might not be up to the task. I eventually swapped it out for a heavy duty intermittent duty solenoid and increased the size of the associated wiring to be sure the wire size didn't cause a problem or have an intermittent fault to ground somewhere. When I changed the solenoid the frequency went down to about once a year. Recently this 10A fuse blew and I replaced it with a 15A fuse that I had with me but it immediately blew also when I turned the key. So I hand propped the plane and took it to the hangar. The next day when I checked it the plane had no problem and started right up with a new fuse. Just to check the normal current flowing through this circuit with the plane acting well, I started it with successively smaller fuses until one finally blew when I turned the key. The plane started fine with a 15A fuse, with a 10A, with a 7.5A, with a 4A, with a 3A and finally with a 1A fuse the starter kicked in and started the plane but the 1A fuse blew. This told me that the solenoid normally drew between 1 and 3 amps, just like it is supposed to, when the system is acting normally. It also told me that when the system blows the fuse, the current draw can be as high as 15A momentarily. That just doesn't make sense, how can a little solenoid pull 15A? Here are a few ideas that I haven't been able to confirm, but I think might be true. If I don't move the prop, after a fuse blows, the next fuse will blow too, probably. A blown fuse is a little more likely to happen when the engine is hot, but not always. It happens easier if I have to crank the starter for quite awhile, I can't tell when exactly it pops though. Early on I checked the voltage at the switch during cranking and it will drop to 10V before too much cranking. I havent checked it for a couple of years. I am on my second battery too. Also, the possibility exists that the keyed switch is the culprit, but I wont replace it to test that idea. I would rather rewire to two toggle switches and a starter button. Im saving that action for later. Im open for suggestions. Mike Harfst


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:49:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
    From: Ron Quillin <rjquillin@gmail.com>
    At 15:35 7/7/2007, you wrote: >I'm open for suggestions. >Mike Harfst Where, physically, is the fuse located? What is it mounted in? I'm wondering if heat and vibration are contributing to degradation and early failure. Ron Q.


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:40:37 PM PST US
    From: <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Electrical Risk
    7/7/2007 Hello Bob, Thanks for your detailed and prompt response to my request for help. I'll follow up with a few comments put in [brackets]. Skipping most of OC's original email -- it is available in the archives if needed. At 07:55 AM 7/7/2007 -0400, Bob Nuckolls wrote: > Questions (from OC) are: > > A) Was any part of the electrical system put at risk of damage by > operating the aircraft in this manner for the short flight to home field? > If so, why? > > Slightly. The alternator was running without benefit of a battery on > line. If I were > going to ferry a similarly afflicted aircraft, I would make a solid > connection of battery > relay, fat wires to bypass the battery relay. Without the battery, > there is slight risk > that a large, transient event (lowering the gear) could trigger an > overshoot in the > alternator's output response or stall the alternator and cause it to > shut down. However, > modern panel mounted electronics (DO-160 qualified) are 99+ percent > okay with this . . . and > the landing gear can be extended by hand. The totally risk-free ferry > philosophy would be > to start the engine, leave the electrical system cold. Leave the gear > down and don't use > flaps. It'a all a trade-off of options that should be left up to the > knowledgeable pilot > tasked with planning and executing the mission. [Unfortunately, reentering the Washington DC ADIZ required electrical power for VHF comm and transponder.] > B) Where is the best source to buy this rather obsolete "Battery Relay" > P/N 6041H189; NSN 5945-00-588-8555, or a currently manufactured acceptable > substitute part? > > The 6041 series contactors are very much in production and still used > both for spares and for new design. Like all such devices, they continue > to fill a niche market where the designer realizes, "Sometimes the best > way to drive the nail is with a hammer." > Having said that, it's also true that the niche for these devices is > narrowed compared to breadth of the DC power controls market and > they're not as easily acquired. I did a google search on "6041H" > and "contactor" and got only 17 hits . . . a few of which were > suppliers. The catalog of variations on the theme for this part can > be downloaded from > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Eaton_CH/ [Yes, the current Eaton catalog has many 6041 series contactors, but none of them are the 6041H189. We attempted to obtain a 6041H189 for this very same Beech airplane a while back in order to replace the failed, but not available, Starter Relay, P/N SBC 9401-1. The word from the Beech community was that the 6041H189 would be an acceptable starter relay subtitute so we attempted to obtain one. We never did get one, but that fact became moot when the A&P doing the install insisted on documentation from Beechcraft saying that a 6041H189 would be acceptable. Beech said "no it would not" and a different starter relay (I don't have the P/N here) was obtained and installed.] [So now with the failure of the Battery Relay P/N 6041H189 we really need that exact part or one that Beech says is an acceptable substitute. I can find indications that there are some 6041H189 relays in existence on shelves, but just not readily available.] > But let's noodle through the simple-ideas behind the notion that > the el-cheeso relay is worthy of relegation to the scrap heap > in favor of its more expensive and much rarer cousin . . . > > The el-cheeso contactor (RPM Controls, White-Rogers, Stancore) > has been flying aboard light aircraft for about 70 years and in > proportionately huge volumes compared to the "mil quality" > device. If you ask any FBO mechanic how often they need to replace > one of these things, you'll get, "Oh yeah, I've replaced a boat-load > of those things!" But ask too how often he/she has replaced tires, > batteries, spark plugs, etc and you'll no doubt hear, "I've replaced > a boat load of those too." [In this instance of a type certificated airplane with the manufacturer's IPC (Illustrated Parts Catalog) calling for a specific relay P/N and an installing A&P mechanic insisting on documentation from the manufacturer to cover his ass before he will install a different part, the el-cheeso contactor is not an option.] > > The point being that ALL things have a service life limit. Further, > those limits are profoundly influenced by environment, operational > stresses and out-of-the-ordinary abuse by technique and perhaps > lack of preventative maintenance on the part of the owner/operator. > > Things like tires and plugs are replaced based on physical > observation and/or periodic maintenance intervals. But somehow, > things like batteries, contactors, switches and other components > vulnerable to service-stresses are not so blessed with the mechanic's > attention. > > This happens because there is (1) a lack of understanding as > to how life limit on these parts is influenced, (2) determination > of condition that goes beyond ordinary visual inspection (read labor > and thought-intensive) and (3) an insanely aggravated cost-of- > ownership generated from over-regulation by individuals demonstrably > short on understanding. > > Yet we are loath to treat these components like spark plugs and > put service life limits on them. At the same time we get > our shorts in a bunch worrying about some failure to perform > that generates a maintenance inconvenience (as cited above) > or becomes the opening bars of the prelude for one's personal > dark-n-stormy-night story. > > What's the first practical increment for elevating the comfort > levels of ownership of the aircraft cited above? The writer cites > multiple replacements of the battery contactor. Is this hard > evidence of and inability of the contactor to perform? Hmmmm . . . > there are hundreds of thousands of these same devices flying. > While replacement RATES (Failures per flight hour) are probably > higher than that of the high-dollar cousin, there's nothing > to that indicates these parts don't yield an acceptable > cost-of-ownership value. Two short-coupled failures of the > contactor? Hmmmm . . . is it possible that there's an underlying > operating stress that's shortening the life of the contactor? > Maybe . . . probably not. These parts have a calculable and probably > demonstrable mean time between failure. But when considering > some cited MTBF number reveals an average service life. > A small number of parts will go twice that value, a small number > of parts will crap 10 hours out of the box. [The three contactor failures that I am aware of during the last year are: 1) The Starter Relay, P/N SBC 9401-1 in the Beech aircraft; 2) A garden variety master battery contactor (P/N 111-138D or similar) failure in a fairly new RV-8; and 3) Now the master battery contactor failure P/N 6041H189, in the same Beech aircraft as failure 1.] [My reaction to failure number 2 was to rewire my own amateur built experimental aircraft so that I could supply electrical power to my transponder from my essential bus if my master battery contactor failed. A transponder is required for operating in the Washington DC ADIZ where my home field is located.] > To make an upgrade decision without benefit of a detailed > study of the physics and field experience is intellectually > comforting . . . but the high-dollar part WILL also fail > at some point in time. If all you seek is to push the > inevitable out in time, then an upgrade is a perfectly > rational thing to do. If you're REALLY more interested > in reduced cost of ownership and/or canceling the show > on your personal dark-n-stormy-night drama, then an alternate > approach is indicated. > > First, how about treating this contactor like a spark plug? > If you're willing to put $20 to $70 PER PLUG into an engine > every so often, is it also reasonable to plan for $25 for > a battery relay every so often as well? > > I had a conversation with a reader some years ago worried > about getting stuck on a remote lake with his float plane. > We decided it was a good thing to carry spare contactors > and tools necessary for replacement. > > If it were my airplane, in addition to periodic preventative > maintenance, the Avionics Master would become an e-bus > alternate feed switch and a normal feed diode would be > installed. Then I would be inoculated from both the > in-flight failure scenario as well as the conundrum of > "how to best ferry this airplane". [Probably not a feasible course of action for the type certificated Beech aircraft. It may be possible to push such a 337 change through our local FSDO, but I doubt the owner would pay the tab for it.] > Yup. There is no single "solution" that best fits the needs > for all owner/operators and a host of options. > PPS: This is the second main battery contactor failure that I am aware of > within the last year. Other failure was with a garden variety contactor > (P/N 111-226) when the very small coil wire fractured. I have rewired my > amateur built experimental a bit with this failure in mind. > > Depending on how many hoops you're willing/forced to jump, there > are other "upgrade" options. Consider: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf > > There are a lot of opportunities (but widely spaced and > take $time$ to locate) for purchases. Some options to > explore are . . . > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Contactors/Tyco_Kilovac/ev200.pdf > > http://tinyurl.com/2usy58 > > http://tinyurl.com/3847kw > > http://www.warbirdrelics.com/Electrical.htm > > http://www.silindustries.com/_RefFiles/Capabilities%20List(19apr07).swf > > http://www.electrospec.com/electronic/components-parts/index599.html > > http://www.marineairsupply.com/index.html > > http://www.clarkreiss.com/Inventory/relays/rl-speci > > Of course, the one place guaranteed willing and able to supply > such a part is the service-parts department of your local FBO. > This presupposes that $time$ is no object. I think the lowest > cost-of-ownership solution is to carry a spare contactor and > tools necessary for replacement optionally combined with a > shift of duties for the avionics master switch. > > > Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:01:55 PM PST US
    From: mdharfst@comcast.net
    Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid fuse blows, ideas?
    Ron The fuse is mounted in a fuseblock on top of the glove box behind my panel. No heat there, little vibration, none of the other fuses have blown but are all subjected to the same environment and some fuses blow without ever being flown. You may have something there though, I'll put it on the list of things to check. Thanks, Mike >>> Where, physically, is the fuse located? What is it mounted in? I'm wondering if heat and vibration are contributing to degradation and early failure.<<<<




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