---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/08/07: 21 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:24 AM - Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (paul wilson) 2. 06:24 AM - Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Ernest Christley) 3. 06:35 AM - WOW..... (Fergus Kyle) 4. 07:03 AM - Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Eric M. Jones) 5. 07:07 AM - Re: Circuit Breaker Bus Bar (Walter Fellows) 6. 07:55 AM - Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:26 AM - Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Speedy11@aol.com) 8. 12:51 PM - Avionics Stack width (Larry James) 9. 01:24 PM - Re: Circuit Breaker Bus Bar () 10. 01:31 PM - Re: Avionics Stack width (BobsV35B@aol.com) 11. 01:48 PM - Re: Avionics Stack width (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 02:55 PM - Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 03:26 PM - Re: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Peter Harris) 15. 03:48 PM - Re: Manual Battery Switch Project (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 05:40 PM - Mr. Nuckolls (Terry Watson) 17. 07:20 PM - Vertical Power transcends on Z-19 () 18. 08:08 PM - Re: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 08:18 PM - Re: Vertical Power transcends on Z-19 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 08:54 PM - Re: Manual Battery Master Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 11:00 PM - Re: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH (Peter Harris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:48 AM PST US From: paul wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH Clever design. I guess the operating cable is non conductive, or did I miss something? Paul ====================== At 11:05 PM 8/7/2007, you wrote: > > Ferg, Why not build one? You need to support two 5/16" brass > studs on an insulating material, say 1/8" thick fiberglass/epoxy > sheet. Taper switch ends of studs to provide a spherical tip > with about 1/8th inch radius. Mount studs just far enough apart > to allow connection with fat-wires . . . about 1" would probably > do. Build box on terminal board to capture a brass "slider" > (3/8" square stock) that is pressed against stud tips with > spring loading from back side. You could rig a Bowden control > cable to operate the slide (you need about 1/2 to 3/4" stroke) > for making and breaking the switch. This seems like a project > that could be crafted with common hand tools. The > end product would be on the order of 2.5" long, 1.2" wide and > perhaps 2" tall overall. Perfect the design and we'll do an article > on it for the website. > > Here's a rough layout of a possible design > >http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf > > The brass stock, parts and spring-stud are McMaster catalog > items. Side brackets can be aluminum sheet or extrusion. > Insulating material could be Delrin or perhaps even a > hard "machinable" wood like walnut or oak. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:58 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > Here's a rough layout of a possible design > > http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf > > The brass stock, parts and spring-stud are McMaster catalog > items. Side brackets can be aluminum sheet or extrusion. > Insulating material could be Delrin or perhaps even a > hard "machinable" wood like walnut or oak. > > Bob . . . > What a cool idea. This looks like it would be a fun project, Bob. The only thing I would change would be to make the slider a square piece and arrange it so that it contacts both taper switch ends at the same time. I know this real smart guy that taught me that contactors have multiple break points in order to break the arc faster. With a couple more of those spring-studs, it should be possible to make the slider pop off the switch ends at a much higher rate. Just arrange a few on both sides of the switch ends so that the slider is cantilevered away when it is slid out, but hits the springs and pushed against the contacts when slid in. Dang!! I'm gonna have to make one now. Right after I finish building several more earbud headsets. I'll never get airplane finished at this rate (but, I will have the coolest contactor in the universe!!). Ernest (Is anyone else having this much fun?) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:03 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: WOW..... Bob sent: Time: 09:09:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 10:43 AM 8/6/2007 -0400, I wrote: > I'm still searching for that elusive device - in an attempt to avoid >the cost of an ampere or two of contactor current - which will control a >primary battery source and another for secondary battery source. > I have found several which meet one criterion or another, but not >all: >[a] should carry as much current as a contactor for that job; >[b] needs to be an up-down rather than rotary type switch; >[c] should be on a remote(able) stalk so I can undo the connection to >remove the instrument panel ; >[d] cost less than the usual contactor - or at least be competitive. > I have devised a system to isolate the controls from wandering >fingers so am not fussy about security. I'm not sure what a "Kill switch" is >really. > Any help would be most appreciated. Ferg, Why not build one? You need to support two 5/16" brass studs on an insulating material, say 1/8" thick fiberglass/epoxy sheet. Taper switch ends of studs to provide a spherical tip with about 1/8th inch radius. Mount studs just far enough apart to allow connection with fat-wires . . . about 1" would probably do. Build box on terminal board to capture a brass "slider" (3/8" square stock) that is pressed against stud tips with spring loading from back side. You could rig a Bowden control cable to operate the slide (you need about 1/2 to 3/4" stroke) for making and breaking the switch. This seems like a project that could be crafted with common hand tools. The end product would be on the order of 2.5" long, 1.2" wide and perhaps 2" tall overall. Perfect the design and we'll do an article on it for the website. Here's a rough layout of a possible design http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf The brass stock, parts and spring-stud are McMaster catalog items. Side brackets can be aluminum sheet or extrusion. Insulating material could be Delrin or perhaps even a hard "machinable" wood like walnut or oak. Bob . . . 'lectric Bob, What a scheme! I appreciate the work and creativity, but not too sure I am up to it. I would have to check with my inspector about the reliability design factors - I see him Friday night so will broach the subject. How do you find these tidbits? Having a couple of productive buddies may prove the answer as am 'way behind and have had to move the project up to the hangar this week as family events will demand the 'factory' back to a bedroom. Perhaps between us we can come up with a couple of samples. Thanks again for your diligence. It's always an eye-opener.......... Hugs to Dr. Dee Ferg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:23 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH From: "Eric M. Jones" > I'm still searching for that elusive device - in an attempt to avoid > the cost of an ampere or two of contactor current - which will control a > primary battery source and another for secondary battery source. > I have found several which meet one criterion or another, but not > all: > [a] should carry as much current as a contactor for that job; > [b] needs to be an up-down rather than rotary type switch; > [c] should be on a remote(able) stalk so I can undo the connection to > remove the instrument panel ; > [d] cost less than the usual contactor - or at least be competitive. > I have devised a system to isolate the controls from wandering > fingers so am not fussy about security. I'm not sure what a "Kill switch" is > really. Any help would be most appreciated. Ferg, As Bob says you can build one. but I suggest Flaming River's push-pull battery switch. Not cheap but you won't have to build it. If you want to build one, get a scrap type-70 or similar contactor, toss the coil and use the parts. You can buy high current contacts too, although you can buy silver and make contacts that will do the job for this application. Don't neglect the patents online at USPTO. Search high current switch, etc. and see how people did it. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones@charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=128076#128076 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:15 AM PST US From: "Walter Fellows" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Circuit Breaker Bus Bar There are some diagrams on spacing you may find useful in the Tony Bingelis book Sportplane Construction Techniques available from EAA. On 8/7/07, Scott R. Shook wrote: > > Greetings, > > I have lurked in the AeroElectric list for a while and I am coming to > point in my project where I am going to be planning and building my > electrical system. I am looking at 12 circuit breakers (spare the groans) > in a 3 x 4 configuration. > > Would anyone be willing to send a photo or many photos of how would one go > about making a copper bus bar for a configuration like that where the > breakers are not inline? > > Also, what are you doing to insulate the bus bar against accidental > contact with a ground? > > Thank you, > > *** * > > *Scott R. Shook* > > *RV-7A (Building)* > > *N696JS (Reserved)* > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 04:49 AM 8/8/2007 -0600, you wrote: > >Clever design. I guess the operating cable is non conductive, or did I >miss something? >Paul The conventional Bowden push-pull control is obviously metallic. I'd probably drill the slider and fit a full length plastic insulator tubing down the hole and craft insulator washers for each end that would isolate the wire from the slider. There's a variety of ways to consider for attaching the wire . . . but your observations concerning the need for insulation are correct. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:28 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH Eric Jones had a neat design for such a device. Contact him at _emjones@charter.net_ (mailto:emjones@charter.net) . Stan Sutterfield >Cheers, > I'm still searching for that elusive device - in an attempt to avoid >the cost of an ampere or two of contactor current - which will control a >primary battery source and another for secondary battery source. > I have found several which meet one criterion or another, but not >all: >[a] should carry as much current as a contactor for that job; >[b] needs to be an up-down rather than rotary type switch; >[c] should be on a remote(able) stalk so I can undo the connection to >remove the instrument panel ; >[d] cost less than the usual contactor - or at least be competitive. > I have devised a system to isolate the controls from wandering >fingers so am not fussy about security. I'm not sure what a "Kill switch" is >really. > Any help would be most appreciated. Ferg, Why not build one? You need to support two 5/16" brass studs on an insulating material, say 1/8" thick fiberglass/epoxy sheet. Taper switch ends of studs to provide a spherical tip with about 1/8th inch radius. Mount studs just far enough apart to allow connection with fat-wires . . . about 1" would probably do. Build box on terminal board to capture a brass "slider" (3/8" square stock) that is pressed against stud tips with spring loading from back side. You could rig a Bowden control cable to operate the slide (you need about 1/2 to 3/4" stroke) for making and breaking the switch. This seems like a project that could be crafted with common hand tools. The end product would be on the order of 3" long, 1.5" wide and perhaps 2" deep. Perfect the design and we'll do an article on it for the website. http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:54 PM PST US From: "Larry James" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Stack width I've measured a few items now and have found some discrepancy in dimensions. What is the supposed standard panel opening for avionics ?? In the case of a slide in unit utilizing a tray, this would be the outside width of the tray. Second, what is the supposed standard slide-in width ?? In the same case, this would be the inside opening width of the tray; of the outside width of the avionics unit. Thanks !!! Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (fuselage / systems) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:38 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Circuit Breaker Bus Bar From: Scott, If you haven't already considered it, a 20 slot fuse block is easier and cheaper to setup than breakers. Use a breaker for the alternator and main buss, but as Bob would say, you can only reset those expensive critters once - after that you already have a problem. Install the fuse block where it's accessible to easily change the fuses but not ugly and you'll have more panel space for other goodies. You'll also have hundreds of dollars left over from not buying breakers. If you are dead set on cb's I think the list has already donated some nice examples. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott R. Shook Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 5:28 PM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Circuit Breaker Bus Bar Greetings, I have lurked in the AeroElectric list for a while and I am coming to point in my project where I am going to be planning and building my electrical system. I am looking at 12 circuit breakers (spare the groans) in a 3 x 4 configuration. Would anyone be willing to send a photo or many photos of how would one go about making a copper bus bar for a configuration like that where the breakers are not inline? Also, what are you doing to insulate the bus bar against accidental contact with a ground? Thank you, Scott R. Shook RV-7A (Building) N696JS (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:38 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Stack width Good Afternoon Larry, Ever since the "Glover Box" radios appeared in the late forties, the standard width was considered to be six and one quarter inches for us light plane types. Unfortunately, it seems that some have fattened up a bit so that it now seems better to plan on six and five sixteenths of an inch. If your box is skinny, you can always add washer or two, but if they are on the fat side, it is hard to fix. In any case, it is best to measure the actual units. Some of them will give a dimension to within one one thousandth of an inch, but when you measure them, as you have noted, there can be a fifty thousandth error. Once again , measure the actual box if at all possible! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 8/8/2007 2:55:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, larry@ncproto.com writes: I=99ve measured a few items now and have found some discrepancy in di mensions. What is the supposed standard panel opening for avionics ?? In the case o f a slide in unit utilizing a tray, this would be the outside width of the tray. Second, what is the supposed standard slide-in width ?? In the same case, this would be the inside opening width of the tray; of the outside wi dth of the avionics unit. Thanks !!! Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (fuselage / systems) t http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:01 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Stack width From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Old Bob is right...I measured my stack ( A PS engineering Audio panel and the rest Garmin) and cut a 6.25" hole in the panel. Frank RV 7a ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 1:30 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avionics Stack width Good Afternoon Larry, Ever since the "Glover Box" radios appeared in the late forties, the standard width was considered to be six and one quarter inches for us light plane types. Unfortunately, it seems that some have fattened up a bit so that it now seems better to plan on six and five sixteenths of an inch. If your box is skinny, you can always add washer or two, but if they are on the fat side, it is hard to fix. In any case, it is best to measure the actual units. Some of them will give a dimension to within one one thousandth of an inch, but when you measure them, as you have noted, there can be a fifty thousandth error. Once again, measure the actual box if at all possible! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 8/8/2007 2:55:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, larry@ncproto.com writes: I've measured a few items now and have found some discrepancy in dimensions. What is the supposed standard panel opening for avionics ?? In the case of a slide in unit utilizing a tray, this would be the outside width of the tray. Second, what is the supposed standard slide-in width ?? In the same case, this would be the inside opening width of the tray; of the outside width of the avionics unit. Thanks !!! Larry E. James Bellevue, WA Super Decathlon Rocket (fuselage / systems) ________________________________ .. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:40 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 09:22 AM 8/8/2007 -0400, you wrote: > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >> >> Here's a rough layout of a possible design >> >>http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf >> >> The brass stock, parts and spring-stud are McMaster catalog >> items. Side brackets can be aluminum sheet or extrusion. >> Insulating material could be Delrin or perhaps even a >> hard "machinable" wood like walnut or oak. >> >> Bob . . . >What a cool idea. This looks like it would be a fun project, Bob. The >only thing I would change would be to make the slider a square piece and >arrange it so that it contacts both taper switch ends at the same time. >I know this real smart guy that taught me that contactors have multiple >break points in order to break the arc faster. This isn't a contactor. It's a low velocity, sliding contact switch that depends on PRESSURE at the contact locations to achieve low resistance connection. This is a low voltage (12v) low current (10A or less) SWITCHING task that must handle 200+ amps only after the switch is static in the close position. >With a couple more of those spring-studs, it should be possible to make >the slider pop off the switch ends at a much higher rate. Just arrange a >few on both sides of the switch ends so that the slider is cantilevered >away when it is slid out, but hits the springs and pushed against the >contacts when slid in. This borrows from some very old technology - the knife switch. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/knife_switch_1.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/knife_switch_2.jpg Two pressure dependent contacts to one moving part. Operating velocity is not critical but good connection in the pressure joints is. Hence two spring-studs to maintain force against the slider . . . flat surface against a spherical surface. VERY LOW contact area, HIGH pressure. >Dang!! I'm gonna have to make one now. Right after I finish building >several more earbud headsets. I'll never get airplane finished at this >rate (but, I will have the coolest contactor in the universe!!). >Ernest (Is anyone else having this much fun?) This is properly called a SPST switch. The drawing is intended to be a door-opener for individuals who would like to expend some effort and acquire some real-time, hands-on experience. At the same time, it offers at least one compact solution to the remotely controlled, zero draw battery switch. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may ) ( give some practical results, but ) ( that's not why we do it." ) ( ) ( Richard P. Feynman ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 07:02 AM 8/8/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > > > I'm still searching for that elusive device - in an attempt to avoid > > the cost of an ampere or two of contactor current - which will control a > > primary battery source and another for secondary battery source. > > I have found several which meet one criterion or another, but not > > all: > > [a] should carry as much current as a contactor for that job; > > [b] needs to be an up-down rather than rotary type switch; > > [c] should be on a remote(able) stalk so I can undo the connection to > > remove the instrument panel ; > > [d] cost less than the usual contactor - or at least be competitive. > > I have devised a system to isolate the controls from wandering > > fingers so am not fussy about security. I'm not sure what a "Kill > switch" is > > really. Any help would be most appreciated. > > >Ferg, > >As Bob says you can build one. but I suggest Flaming River's push-pull >battery switch. Not cheap but you won't have to build it. > >If you want to build one, get a scrap type-70 or similar contactor, toss >the coil and use the parts. The type-70 is a low pressure, large area design where it's not clear to me how one would utilize the components . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1a.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1b.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1c.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1d.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1e.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1f.jpg and craft a manually operated mechanism to achieve remote control. > You can buy high current contacts too, although you can buy silver and > make contacts that will do the job for this application. If one were seeking to craft a high cycle SWITCHING device, higher quality contacts would be useful as would some design philosophy that achieves minimum bounce on closure and rapid contact spreading velocity. In the case of a battery contactor, going beyond the requirement to occasionally SWITCH 10A and occasionally CARRY 200A in a once-per flight-cycle operation seems to have a poor return on infestment for the effort. >Don't neglect the patents online at USPTO. Search high current switch, >etc. and see how people did it. Good idea . . . but keep in mind that most designs are at least attempting to improve on an existing design that exhibits less than ideal service life or performance as a kilo-operations switch working at or near max ratings. For our purposes, a wrench used to connect the battery terminal before flight and disconnect at the end of flight would have more than adequate electrical performance. The design goals here are to achieve convenient manual remote control, light weight, small size and use materials and techniques readily available to the greatest number of interested builders. I.e., the elegant solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:59 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH Bob If you remove the circlip and fit a bolt threaded to engage at the bottom, it could be used to pull the circular contactor down to engage with the copper terminals. Insulate where required. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 07:02 AM 8/8/2007 -0700, you wrote: > > > > I'm still searching for that elusive device - in an attempt to avoid > > the cost of an ampere or two of contactor current - which will control a > > primary battery source and another for secondary battery source. > > I have found several which meet one criterion or another, but not > > all: > > [a] should carry as much current as a contactor for that job; > > [b] needs to be an up-down rather than rotary type switch; > > [c] should be on a remote(able) stalk so I can undo the connection to > > remove the instrument panel ; > > [d] cost less than the usual contactor - or at least be competitive. > > I have devised a system to isolate the controls from wandering > > fingers so am not fussy about security. I'm not sure what a "Kill > switch" is > > really. Any help would be most appreciated. > > >Ferg, > >As Bob says you can build one. but I suggest Flaming River's push-pull >battery switch. Not cheap but you won't have to build it. > >If you want to build one, get a scrap type-70 or similar contactor, toss >the coil and use the parts. The type-70 is a low pressure, large area design where it's not clear to me how one would utilize the components . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1a.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1b.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1c.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1d.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1e.jpg http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/S701-1f.jpg and craft a manually operated mechanism to achieve remote control. > You can buy high current contacts too, although you can buy silver and > make contacts that will do the job for this application. If one were seeking to craft a high cycle SWITCHING device, higher quality contacts would be useful as would some design philosophy that achieves minimum bounce on closure and rapid contact spreading velocity. In the case of a battery contactor, going beyond the requirement to occasionally SWITCH 10A and occasionally CARRY 200A in a once-per flight-cycle operation seems to have a poor return on infestment for the effort. >Don't neglect the patents online at USPTO. Search high current switch, >etc. and see how people did it. Good idea . . . but keep in mind that most designs are at least attempting to improve on an existing design that exhibits less than ideal service life or performance as a kilo-operations switch working at or near max ratings. For our purposes, a wrench used to connect the battery terminal before flight and disconnect at the end of flight would have more than adequate electrical performance. The design goals here are to achieve convenient manual remote control, light weight, small size and use materials and techniques readily available to the greatest number of interested builders. I.e., the elegant solution. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Manual Battery Switch Project At 09:33 AM 8/8/2007 -0400, you wrote: >'lectric Bob, > What a scheme! I appreciate the work and creativity, but not too sure I am >up to it. I would have to check with my inspector about the reliability >design factors - I see him Friday night so will broach the subject. Reliability should not be an issue. The classic master-switch/ battery-contactor has no published reliability statistics. I.e., and MTBF "calculation" would be so fraught with assumptions as to make the exercise meaningless. Even if you purchased a manufactured manual battery switch, there's no data to allow a quantified comparison between the legacy switch/contactor combination versus a manually operated substitute. At the same time, (repeat after me) "WE craft failure tolerant systems." I.e., we KNOW that the legacy contactors have failed at inopportune times for thousands of airplane owners and we've crafted a plan-B to comfortably accommodate a battery switch failure whether it's the traditional switch/contactor approach or a manual switch. >How do you find these tidbits? Having a couple of productive buddies may >prove the >answer as am 'way behind and have had to move the project up to the hangar >this week as family events will demand the 'factory' back to a bedroom. >Perhaps between us we can come up with a couple of samples. I have all the materials in the shop to craft this switch and access to the machine tools necessary to do a really "professional looking" job. However, it would be nice if I could demonstrate a fabrication process that used nothing more exotic than a table or band saw, a 1" vertical belt sander and a drill press. It would be a fun comic book to do. Unfortunately, I've got a ton of things on my plate right now . . . but who knows. > Thanks again for your diligence. It's always an eye-opener.......... >Hugs to Dr. Dee Thank you sir. I'll pass along your compliments. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:16 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Mr. Nuckolls Bob, We didn't get (or I missed) a report on your Dad. I hope the news was better. Terry ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:52 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power transcends on Z-19 From: Bob, Just wanted to get your opinion of the integration of Z-19 and Vertical Powers' V-200 unit. I believe they are charging about 10k for that package. Do you feel there is enough valued added integrity there to substantiate that investment? It seems to me that Z-19 already has enough robustness built into the design. VP does perform some fancy automation stuff, but that becomes personal rather an integral to the system. I will be using an external EIS 4000 which is married to the Subaru and provides all necessary engine parameters. The V-200 supports just a few of the Subaru engine functions at this time - more planned for 2008. http://www.verticalpower.com/docs/VP_Z-19.pdf ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:20 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 08:26 AM 8/9/2007 +1000, you wrote: > > >Bob >If you remove the circlip and fit a bolt threaded to engage at the bottom, >it could be used to pull the circular contactor down to engage with the >copper terminals. Insulate where required. >Peter Not sure what you mean. The motion in this device is longitudinal to the "slider", I.e., a Bowden wire coming in from the left would be used to move the slider such that it disengages from the left-hand stud only. The motion is not intended to emulated the actions of a contactor. There's no circlip in the assembly as illustrated. Only two fixed terminal studs with spherical ends and a brass-slide bar held against the studs with spring loaded balls from underneath. The spring-studs are threaded so that the pressure and spring-travel can be adjusted. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Vertical Power transcends on Z-19 At 10:18 PM 8/8/2007 -0400, you wrote: > >Bob, > Just wanted to get your opinion of the integration of Z-19 and >Vertical Powers' V-200 unit. I believe they are charging about 10k for >that package. Do you feel there is enough valued added integrity there >to substantiate that investment? It seems to me that Z-19 already has >enough robustness built into the design. VP does perform some fancy >automation stuff, but that becomes personal rather an integral to the >system. I will be using an external EIS 4000 which is married to the >Subaru and provides all necessary engine parameters. The V-200 supports >just a few of the Subaru engine functions at this time - more planned >for 2008. Return on investment is a decision you'll have to make. What are your proposed design goals for incorporating the system? Are you wanting to save time? How would the time "saved" be put to better use in the conduct of your flight? What's the cost of ownership? Is there risk that you'll spend more money over your ownership of the airplane such that you're going to come out money ahead for compared to not having incorporated the system? I have no doubts that the product performs as advertised (or will if any bugs are detected). The questions to be asked and answered have to be based on perception of performance or hazard shortfall for not having used this system to replace the traditional hardware and techniques. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Physics is like sex: sure, it may ) ( give some practical results, but ) ( that's not why we do it." ) ( ) ( Richard P. Feynman ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:27 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Manual Battery Master Switch Based on the number of on and off-List comments I'm getting on the proposed design, it's apparent that some folks are not understanding the operation of the device. I've updated the drawing at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9042/9042-100.pdf to show the Bowden control and insulation necessary to complete the manual battery switch system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:55 PM PST US From: "Peter Harris" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH Bob I was referring to the first of the pics you sent showing a type 70 contactor open for inspection. It could be used by manually actuating the movement with the use of a bolt. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2007 2:05 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: BATTERY MASTER SWITCH At 08:26 AM 8/9/2007 +1000, you wrote: > > >Bob >If you remove the circlip and fit a bolt threaded to engage at the bottom, >it could be used to pull the circular contactor down to engage with the >copper terminals. Insulate where required. >Peter Not sure what you mean. The motion in this device is longitudinal to the "slider", I.e., a Bowden wire coming in from the left would be used to move the slider such that it disengages from the left-hand stud only. The motion is not intended to emulated the actions of a contactor. There's no circlip in the assembly as illustrated. Only two fixed terminal studs with spherical ends and a brass-slide bar held against the studs with spring loaded balls from underneath. The spring-studs are threaded so that the pressure and spring-travel can be adjusted. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.