Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:42 AM - Re: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback' (Miskelly, Francis G)
2. 08:03 AM - Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring schematic? (Darwin N. Barrie)
3. 09:11 AM - Emag Wiring (Speedy11@aol.com)
4. 09:16 AM - Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
5. 11:37 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (Peter Pengilly)
6. 01:32 PM - GPS/XM antenna interference (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
7. 05:09 PM - Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring schematic? (Michael T. Ice)
8. 08:31 PM - Re: Emag Wiring (Michael T. Ice)
9. 08:34 PM - Re: Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring (Michael T. Ice)
10. 08:48 PM - Re: Emag Wiring (Michael T. Ice)
11. 10:37 PM - Aeroelectric Connection Book (Phil Maley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Nav/com 'acoustic feedback' |
The squelch is set to off. Pulling out the volume control knob takes off
the squelch. When i leave the squelch on there is virtually no radio
reception at all.
- Frank
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Ernest
Christley
Sent: Mon 13/08/2007 17:57
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback'
<echristley@nc.rr.com>
Miskelly, Francis G wrote:
> Thanks for your comments Ernest.
> I've double-checked all the grounds i could find. Even took the whole
harness out (which was new) and had it double-checked. Nothing found.
> If its the intercom in the radio why does it not cause the same
problem when the engine is off?
> It only causes the problem when the engine is running
> Kind regards
> Frank
>
>
Where is your squelch set at?
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring |
schematic?
WIRE PER THE MANUFACTURERS RECOMMENDATIONS!!! I respect Bob but why
differ from what the manufactureres want. Bob's wiring should be in
consultation with Brad and Tom.
I wired per Emagair's instructions and have not had any wiring issues.
The breakers provide the ability to isolate if necessary. When I had a
mechanical failure of the Pmag (magnet came loose) I used the key switch
to isolate and go to the good mag. I then cut the breaker also to the
bad mag.
During run up I use the keyed switch for the mag check. I don't do an
idle check with the Pmags every flight. I did an initial install check
to deteremine the cutoff RPM for each mag. My idle is set higher than
the cutoff so I see no need to do idle check each run up.
I'm not an electronics person but in talking to Brad I can see where a
power interuption could potentially cause issues.
I'm missing a point I was going to say but the bottomline, wire per the
instructions and you'll be fine.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
RV7 N717EE
2 Pmags 260+ hours
Message 3
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Mike,
Since you invited comment, I will.
I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the
variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working
out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix
doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would
recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the
builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect
Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable.
I believe that would be true of any company selling a product - if the
buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist.
I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two
hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two
panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag
installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the
P model
during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12
volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker."
I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure -
despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says
contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.
I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any
indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their
internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power
removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off
the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will
there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working?
Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if
one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch
each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal
alternator.
Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM
builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can,
too.
Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska.
My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are
looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads?
Stan Sutterfield
_www.rv-8a.net_ (http://www.rv-8a.net)
Erich,
I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked
him
about this very same issue.
First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot
about
electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and
a P/mag.
After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures
Z-13
and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle
differences.
Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the
master
there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for
P-lead
kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on
the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part
of
the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to
the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is
well
the motor keeps on humming.
Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch
are
down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33
schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to
cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal
alternator
check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and
if all is well you can't tell the difference.
So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do
the
same thing just in slightly different ways.
Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's
own
P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master
on,
both switches in the up position, mash the start button.
But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say
about
this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He
has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide
help.
I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on
this
question can only help us and Emagair greatly.
I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read
anything directly
from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind.
Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us
folks in
the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For
instance
how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer
is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out.
Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated.
Mike Ice
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring |
Darwin
Bob shares the Z-figures because he believes there is an advantage to t
hem
over "standard" methods. Im sure the Emagair wiring method works fine,
but
if all we ever did was to do what was done before, there would be no
progress. If there is a real issue with Bob's schematics for emags/pma
gs I
am confident that he will want to know about it and either improve them
or
toss them, and at that point I will re-wire mine. I cant see any harm
in
having Bob get together with the fine folks at Emagair and then see wha
t
both have to say about the issue. I really kind of doubt this is that
big
of a deal. If others are in a hurry and concerned, by all means, go wi
th
the Emagair method.
best regards
erich
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Stan,
I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a
P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the
power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections.
If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working,
then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off
the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no
magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking
both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead
switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop
(there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting
off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the
same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is
not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on
and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the
generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a
P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal
as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator
were to fail.
The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so
E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set
level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't
consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be
worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it
is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention.
To answer your specific questions,
I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any
indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two
Pmags on their internal alternators.
No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care)
the other is there.
For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and
both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead
switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be
an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working?
Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off
power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag
internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine
will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off.
Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because
if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be
to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on
one internal alternator.
There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn.
I hope this helps, regards, Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring
Mike,
Since you invited comment, I will.
I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the
variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They
are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring
methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in
their position, I would recommend builders use only the company
recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that
recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to
resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe
that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer
deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist.
I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with
two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus
and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the
Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator
operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P
model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the
breaker."
I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure -
despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob
often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.
I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any
indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two
Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the
mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal
alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is
now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication
that the chosen Pmag is not working?
Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because
if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be
to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on
one internal alternator.
Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM
builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we
can, too.
Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in
Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22
and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads?
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
Erich,
I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I
asked him
about this very same issue.
First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole
lot about
electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an
E and
a P/mag.
After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z
figures Z-13
and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle
differences.
Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the
master
there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are
for P-lead
kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on
the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator
part of
the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power
supply to
the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all
is well
the motor keeps on humming.
Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the
switch are
down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the
Z-33
schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be
able to
cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal
alternator
check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and
if all is well you can't tell the difference.
So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems
do the
same thing just in slightly different ways.
Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has
it's own
P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy.
Master on,
both switches in the up position, mash the start button.
But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to
say about
this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights.
He
has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide
help.
I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog
on this
question can only help us and Emagair greatly.
I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read
anything directly
from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind.
Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us
folks in
the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style.
For instance
how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the
answer
is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns
out.
Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated.
Mike Ice
_____
<http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982>
.
Message 6
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| Subject: | GPS/XM antenna interference |
Just to pass along my learnings- after contacting the techies at Garmin,
Trutrak and GRT, none expressed any concerns or related any experiences where
locating these antennas(ae?) next to each other would create any problems. None
of the replies from the various lists indicated much of a problem either- at
least no one identified any specific technical issues. Proceeding as planned-
>From the Antenna Farm...
Mark
(again, apologies for multi-list posting!)
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring |
schematic?
Darwin,
I think I agree with your view point completely. What I am realizing though is
that folks are wiring these mags all sorts of ways. I wonder if the lack of a
common way to wire them has or is causing some of the troubles we read about?
When it comes time to wire my e & p mags I will likely use the Emagair system.
Mike ice
----- Original Message -----
From: Darwin N. Barrie
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring
schematic?
WIRE PER THE MANUFACTURERS RECOMMENDATIONS!!! I respect Bob but why differ from
what the manufactureres want. Bob's wiring should be in consultation with Brad
and Tom.
I wired per Emagair's instructions and have not had any wiring issues. The breakers
provide the ability to isolate if necessary. When I had a mechanical failure
of the Pmag (magnet came loose) I used the key switch to isolate and go
to the good mag. I then cut the breaker also to the bad mag.
During run up I use the keyed switch for the mag check. I don't do an idle check
with the Pmags every flight. I did an initial install check to deteremine
the cutoff RPM for each mag. My idle is set higher than the cutoff so I see no
need to do idle check each run up.
I'm not an electronics person but in talking to Brad I can see where a power
interuption could potentially cause issues.
I'm missing a point I was going to say but the bottomline, wire per the instructions
and you'll be fine.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
RV7 N717EE
2 Pmags 260+ hours
Message 8
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Stan,
I agree with you that the guys at Emag want to keep their mags wired the way they
designed them. It makes sense to me to follow their recommendations. I was
just wondering out loud about the differences in the way Bob Nuckolls suggests
and the Emag system.
One thing I like about the AeroElectric ideas is the concept of reducing "parts
count". More parts equals more possible trouble. But in this instance either
system uses at least 2 switches for each P-mag, so it is a wash.
I understand the need for the switch to shut off the power to the P-mag so you
can check the internal alternator but why hide them? If you hide them will you
need a warning light to tell you they are in one position or another? I have
been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an LED light in the end of it.
I sent you a personal email about float planes in Alaska, yes I do live in Anchorage, when your son gets up here tell him we have a good EAA Chapter www.eaa42.org .
Mike Ice
----- Original Message -----
From: Speedy11@aol.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:05 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring
Mike,
Since you invited comment, I will.
I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the variables
as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working out
the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't
help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend
builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the builder
deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance
to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe
that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer deviates
from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist.
I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden
3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted
p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual
says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during
run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt
power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker."
I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure - despite
Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact
the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.
I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication
of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal
alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed
and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead
switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be
an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working?
Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one
internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each
Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator.
Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM builders
(the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can, too.
Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska.
My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking
for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads?
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
Erich,
I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked
him
about this very same issue.
First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot
about
electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and
a P/mag.
After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13
and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle differences.
Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the master
there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for
P-lead
kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on
the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part
of
the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to
the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is
well
the motor keeps on humming.
Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch
are
down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33
schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to
cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator
check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and
if all is well you can't tell the difference.
So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do
the
same thing just in slightly different ways.
Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's
own
P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master
on,
both switches in the up position, mash the start button.
But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say
about
this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He
has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide help.
I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on this
question can only help us and Emagair greatly.
I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read anything
directly
from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind.
Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks
in
the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For
instance
how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer
is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out.
Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated.
Mike Ice
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring |
Erich,
The AeroElectric z-33 figure shows the 2-10 switch being hooked up to P-mags using
wire colors. I think that it would be better if the connector plug was numbered
on those drawings.
I agree, we should hope that Bob and Emag can get together and come up with a one
size fits all, with a reduced parts count, and doesn't cause damage to the
P-mags with and accidental push or flick of a switch.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: emagair recommendation against Nuckoll's wiring
Darwin
Bob shares the Z-figures because he believes there is an advantage to them over
"standard" methods. Im sure the Emagair wiring method works fine, but if all
we ever did was to do what was done before, there would be no progress. If there
is a real issue with Bob's schematics for emags/pmags I am confident that
he will want to know about it and either improve them or toss them, and at that
point I will re-wire mine. I cant see any harm in having Bob get together with
the fine folks at Emagair and then see what both have to say about the issue.
I really kind of doubt this is that big of a deal. If others are in a hurry
and concerned, by all means, go with the Emagair method.
best regards
erich
Message 10
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Peter,
Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for
checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this straight
at least to me.
1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag says
to use the P leads as kill switches)
2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground and no
power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is
doing the duty of both, I suspect it could)
Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the mag.
They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully power down.
Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some confusing
(perhaps only to me) issues.
Thanks for your help in this issue.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Pengilly
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring
Stan,
I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a
P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the
power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections.
If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working,
then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off
the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no
magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking
both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead
switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop
(there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting
off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the
same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is
not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on
and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the
generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a
P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal
as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator
were to fail.
The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so
E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set
level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't
consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be
worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it
is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention.
To answer your specific questions,
I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any
indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two
Pmags on their internal alternators.
No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care)
the other is there.
For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and
both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead
switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be
an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working?
Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off
power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag
internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine
will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off.
Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because
if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be
to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on
one internal alternator.
There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn.
I hope this helps, regards, Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring
Mike,
Since you invited comment, I will.
I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the
variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They
are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring
methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in
their position, I would recommend builders use only the company
recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that
recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to
resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe
that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer
deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist.
I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them
with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the
bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because
the Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator
operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P
model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the
breaker."
I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure -
despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob
often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations.
I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any
indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two
Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the
mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal
alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is
now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication
that the chosen Pmag is not working?
Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because
if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be
to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on
one internal alternator.
Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM
builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we
can, too.
Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in
Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22
and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads?
Stan Sutterfield
www.rv-8a.net
Erich,
I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and
I asked him
about this very same issue.
First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a
whole lot about
electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have
an E and
a P/mag.
After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z
figures Z-13
and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only
subtle differences.
Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on
the master
there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags
are for P-lead
kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn
on
the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the
alternator part of
the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power
supply to
the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if
all is well
the motor keeps on humming.
Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on
the switch are
down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In
the Z-33
schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be
able to
cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the
internal alternator
check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position
and
if all is well you can't tell the difference.
So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both
systems do the
same thing just in slightly different ways.
Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag
has it's own
P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy.
Master on,
both switches in the up position, mash the start button.
But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he
has to say about
this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the
sights. He
has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and
provide help.
I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open
dialog on this
question can only help us and Emagair greatly.
I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read
anything directly
from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open
mind.
Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from
us folks in
the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old
style. For instance
how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the
answer
is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this
turns out.
Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated.
Mike Ice
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| Subject: | Aeroelectric Connection Book |
Hi all
Can anyone confirm if Bob is still active? I ordered his book over a month
ago and received a confirmation email but have still not received the book
in the mail. I've sent Bob a chaser via his web page but got no reply...
73
Phil Maley VK6AD
Tripacer VH-OLD
RV-7A under construction
phil@vk6ad.net
Perth Australia
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