AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 08/15/07


Total Messages Posted: 19



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:50 AM - Re: Aeroelectric Connection Book (Bob Leffler)
     2. 04:08 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (David & Elaine Lamphere)
     3. 05:03 AM - Re: Aeroelectric Connection Book (Phil Maley)
     4. 05:08 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (Speedy11@aol.com)
     5. 05:36 AM - B&C SD 8 Alternator (Harley)
     6. 05:42 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (Speedy11@aol.com)
     7. 05:44 AM - Re: Aeroelectric Connection Book (Dean Van Winkle)
     8. 06:20 AM - Re: B&C SD 8 Alternator (BobsV35B@aol.com)
     9. 07:05 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (Michael T. Ice)
    10. 07:05 AM - Re: B&C SD 8 Alternator (Harley)
    11. 09:44 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (David & Elaine Lamphere)
    12. 10:23 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (Peter Pengilly)
    13. 10:40 AM - Re: Emag Wiring (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    14. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: Emag Wiring (Michael Ice)
    15. 12:49 PM - Re: Emag Wiring (Michael Ice)
    16. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: Emag Wiring (Michael Ice)
    17. 03:31 PM - Re: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback' (Matt Prather)
    18. 03:31 PM - Re: Emag Wiring (Peter Pengilly)
    19. 09:45 PM - Re: Emag Wiring (Michael T. Ice)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:50:02 AM PST US
    From: "Bob Leffler" <rvmail@thelefflers.com>
    Subject: Aeroelectric Connection Book
    His was at Oshkosh, then headed to Alaska for a seminar and vacation. His father also passed away recently. He's kept the list updated when he's away, so you can find more details in the archives. I would suspect that when he gets back in the office, he'll get caught up on everything. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maley Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:34 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aeroelectric Connection Book Hi all Can anyone confirm if Bob is still active? I ordered his book over a month ago and received a confirmation email but have still not received the book in the mail. I've sent Bob a chaser via his web page but got no reply... 73 Phil Maley VK6AD Tripacer VH-OLD RV-7A under construction phil@vk6ad.net Perth Australia __________ NOD32 2463 (20070815) Information __________


    Message 2


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    Time: 04:08:58 AM PST US
    From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" <lamphere@vabb.com>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Mike, Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came with my PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is grounded. It is NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and main ground are separate leads. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Ice To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this straight at least to me. 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully power down. Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. Thanks for your help in this issue. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Stan, I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. To answer your specific questions, I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) the other is there. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. I hope this helps, regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Since you invited comment, I will. I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist. I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can, too. Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? Stan Sutterfield www.rv-8a.net Erich, I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked him about this very same issue. First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot about electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and a P/mag. After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13 and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle differences. Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the master there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for P-lead kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part of the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is well the motor keeps on humming. Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch are down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33 schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and if all is well you can't tell the difference. So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do the same thing just in slightly different ways. Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's own P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master on, both switches in the up position, mash the start button. But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say about this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide help. I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on this question can only help us and Emagair greatly. I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read anything directly from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks in the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For instance how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out. Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. Mike Ice ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:03:06 AM PST US
    From: "Phil Maley" <phil@vk6ad.net>
    Subject: Aeroelectric Connection Book
    Hi all Thanks to those who have replied. I haven't dealt with Bob before so was not familiar with his operation and not sure what to expect. Glad all is OK and very sorry to hear about his father. Best wishes to you all Phil Maley -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Leffler Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2007 18:44 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Aeroelectric Connection Book --> <rvmail@thelefflers.com> His was at Oshkosh, then headed to Alaska for a seminar and vacation. His father also passed away recently. He's kept the list updated when he's away, so you can find more details in the archives. I would suspect that when he gets back in the office, he'll get caught up on everything. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Maley Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 1:34 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aeroelectric Connection Book Hi all Can anyone confirm if Bob is still active? I ordered his book over a month ago and received a confirmation email but have still not received the book in the mail. I've sent Bob a chaser via his web page but got no reply... 73 Phil Maley VK6AD Tripacer VH-OLD RV-7A under construction phil@vk6ad.net Perth Australia __________ NOD32 2463 (20070815) Information __________


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:08:56 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Indeed, it does help. Thanks for your experienced advice. Stan I hope this helps, regards, Peter http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:36:52 AM PST US
    From: Harley <harley@AgelessWings.com>
    Subject: B&C SD 8 Alternator
    Morning, Everyone... Now that I'm dumping all my remaining vacuum instruments (the one I have left!) and the associated pump and gauge, and settling for an all electric panel (except for the static gauges), I am starting to look at alternator options. I've kept up on the past discussions here, and Bob's Connection info, and have a pretty good idea of what's involved. But, I just noticed the B&C model SD-8 alternator that fits on the vacuum pump pad! What a great replacement for a gasket and a cover! I also see that Bob does mention it's use in one of his articles, but as a backup alternator. Seeing that the original Long Ez plans call out an alternator only as an option if you plan on IFR or night flying, or if you use a starter, and strongly recommend just the VariEZE solar panel to keep the battery charged, has anyone here installed the SD-8 and used it as the main unit. It only has a maximum 10 amp output, and a nominal 8 amp, but I would think that would be enough to keep the battery charged and operate the newer low current instruments quite well. I have yet to calculate my panel's consumption (don't have all the instruments yet), let alone the plane's, so it's still in the planning stage. Open to all suggestions. Redundancy is always best, but if one can save some weight and still do the job (I also have two P-mags with their own generators so the engine should keep running on the electronic ignition even if the battery and alternator go down) then I'm all for it. Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Airport Hangar 29 Canandaigua, NY


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:42:06 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Uh oh. I may have deleted your email regarding the float planes thinking it was spam. Please resend it to _speedy11@aol.com_ (mailto:speedy11@aol.com) . Thanks. I'm hiding the switches (along with others) for security and safety. Unless one knows where multiple switches are, one cannot start the aircraft. Once I've set the switches to one position or the other, they will not change until I change them. If they are in the off position, the engine will not start. If in the on position, it will. So, whether or not the engine will start is my indication of switch position - even if hidden. At the end of a flight, adherence to the checklist is required to ensure they are off. Yes, I have more than the normal number of 'failure points,' but as Bob relates, switches fail more often from lack of use than from overuse or internal failure. If my switches fail before start, the engine will not start. Once the switch is on, failure is unlikely and the engine will continue to run. So, the additional failure points argument doesn't bother me. The dialogue is great and I learn more with each discussion. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive I understand the need for the switch to shut off the power to the P-mag so you can check the internal alternator but why hide them? If you hide them will you need a warning light to tell you they are in one position or another? I have been thinking I might use a toggle switch with an LED light in the end of it. I sent you a personal email about float planes in Alaska, yes I do live in Anchorage, when your son gets up here tell him we have a good EAA Chapter www.eaa42.org http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:44:52 AM PST US
    From: "Dean Van Winkle" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
    Subject: Re: Aeroelectric Connection Book
    Phil Bob is still active. He did a weekend seminar in Alaska and is taking some vacation time while there. Dean Van Winkle RV-9A Fuselage/FWF/Finish ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Maley" <phil@vk6ad.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 12:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aeroelectric Connection Book > > Hi all > > Can anyone confirm if Bob is still active? I ordered his book over a month > ago and received a confirmation email but have still not received the book > in the mail. I've sent Bob a chaser via his web page but got no reply... > > 73 > Phil Maley VK6AD > Tripacer VH-OLD > RV-7A under construction > phil@vk6ad.net > Perth Australia > > > --


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:20:37 AM PST US
    From: BobsV35B@aol.com
    Subject: Re: B&C SD 8 Alternator
    Good Morning Harley, The B&C 20 ampere unit fits on the same pad. It is a bit heavier but it is also a more robust looking device. I am very electronically challenged, but I did install one of the twenty amp units on my airplane about ten years ago. Very happy with the result. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Air Park LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8503 In a message dated 8/15/2007 7:41:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, harley@AgelessWings.com writes: But, I just noticed the B&C model SD-8 alternator that fits on the vacuum pump pad! What a great replacement for a gasket and a cover! http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:05:12 AM PST US
    From: "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo@ak.net>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Dave, Thanks for the post. On the diagram I have there is no lead labeled Main ground, there is one labeled to ground on engine case. Is this one your calling the main ground? If so then I agree with you that the power and main ground are separate leads. In the instructions that I have for the e/p mags there is a diagram that shows the wiring sequence. On that diagram it shows a wire from the connector plug #4 that is labeled P-lead (Kill Switch). The other end of this wire shows that it is a ground with the same symbol used with the wire that goes to connector plug #1. Perhaps yours is different? Once again I am not putting down e/p mags. I just think (maybe wrongly) that there is some come confusion as to how to wire these mags. And perhaps I am the only one that is confused, wouldn't be the first time. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: David & Elaine Lamphere To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came with my PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is grounded. It is NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and main ground are separate leads. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Ice To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this straight at least to me. 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully power down. Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. Thanks for your help in this issue. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Stan, I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. To answer your specific questions, I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) the other is there. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. I hope this helps, regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Since you invited comment, I will. I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist. I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can, too. Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? Stan Sutterfield www.rv-8a.net Erich, I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked him about this very same issue. First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot about electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and a P/mag. After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13 and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle differences. Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the master there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for P-lead kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part of the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is well the motor keeps on humming. Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch are down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33 schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and if all is well you can't tell the difference. So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do the same thing just in slightly different ways. Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's own P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master on, both switches in the up position, mash the start button. But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say about this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide help. I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on this question can only help us and Emagair greatly. I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read anything directly from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks in the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For instance how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out. Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. Mike Ice ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:05:55 AM PST US
    From: Harley <harley@AgelessWings.com>
    Subject: Re: B&C SD 8 Alternator
    Mornin', Bob... I guess I didn't look far enough! Didn't see the 20 amp version! Now that looks like a winner...guess it pays to ask, doesn't it! Have to see if I have room for it on the Long between the firewall and the case, but at 6", it should fit. Otherwise, I like it. I see they have a couple of others as well...should have browsed B&Cs site before I started asking questions, I guess! Thanks for the heads up... Now, back to sealing my driveway today...... Harley Dixon Long EZ N28EZ Airport Hangar 29 Canandaigua, NY ------------------------------------------------------------------------ BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Morning Harley, > > The B&C 20 ampere unit fits on the same pad. It is a bit heavier but > it is also a more robust looking device. I am very electronically > challenged, but I did install one of the twenty amp units on my > airplane about ten years ago. Very happy with the result. > > Happy Skies, > > Old Bob > AKA > Bob Siegfried > Ancient Aviator > Stearman N3977A > Brookeridge Air Park LL22 > Downers Grove, IL 60516 > 630 985-8503


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:44:08 AM PST US
    From: "David & Elaine Lamphere" <lamphere@vabb.com>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Ok, here we go... page 20 in my documentation has pin 1 connected to engine case. Since the case is connected to the ground bus via a nice 4-8 gage flexible braided wire, it sure seems to me it's a main ground. Yes, pin 4 is the P-lead (kill switch) - this is to be connected to the ignition switch pin (L or R) where you would normally connect a mag. Notice that pin 5 is connected to +13.8vdc. This is what I would call main DC power. It really is very simple... Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Ice To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Dave, Thanks for the post. On the diagram I have there is no lead labeled Main ground, there is one labeled to ground on engine case. Is this one your calling the main ground? If so then I agree with you that the power and main ground are separate leads. In the instructions that I have for the e/p mags there is a diagram that shows the wiring sequence. On that diagram it shows a wire from the connector plug #4 that is labeled P-lead (Kill Switch). The other end of this wire shows that it is a ground with the same symbol used with the wire that goes to connector plug #1. Perhaps yours is different? Once again I am not putting down e/p mags. I just think (maybe wrongly) that there is some come confusion as to how to wire these mags. And perhaps I am the only one that is confused, wouldn't be the first time. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: David & Elaine Lamphere To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came with my PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is grounded. It is NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and main ground are separate leads. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Ice To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this straight at least to me. 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully power down. Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. Thanks for your help in this issue. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Stan, I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. To answer your specific questions, I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) the other is there. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. I hope this helps, regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Since you invited comment, I will. I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist. I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can, too. Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? Stan Sutterfield www.rv-8a.net Erich, I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked him about this very same issue. First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot about electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and a P/mag. After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13 and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle differences. Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the master there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for P-lead kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part of the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is well the motor keeps on humming. Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch are down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33 schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and if all is well you can't tell the difference. So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do the same thing just in slightly different ways. Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's own P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master on, both switches in the up position, mash the start button. But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say about this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide help. I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on this question can only help us and Emagair greatly. I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read anything directly from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks in the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For instance how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out. Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. Mike Ice ------------------------------------------------------------------------ href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:23:55 AM PST US
    From: "Peter Pengilly" <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Emag Wiring
    Mike, I could probably have written a little more clearly. The object is to get one P-mag running on its internal generator (by removing busbar power), then cycle the other mag/P-mag to find out if the engine still runs (I wrote it the other way around). If the engine runs, the generator is good, if it does not generator is bad. So, probably the best sequence is 1. Carry out normal mag drop check to deduce "normal" mag drop. Bear in mind there will always be an rpm drop when only a P/E-mag is running, but that drop won't be as large as when only a magneto is running. 2. Shut off busbar power to one P-mag 3. Switch off/ground other mag/P-mag (so it is not producing sparks) 4. Observe engine behaviour. Rpm drop as in 1 above = everything working fine, other results require investigation. 5. Restore switches to normal positions if generator is working fine 6. Repeat procedure from 2 above for other P-mag, if fitted. I don't check the P-mag generator every flight. Hope this is a little more clear. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael T. Ice Sent: 15 August 2007 04:45 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this straight at least to me. 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully power down. Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. Thanks for your help in this issue. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Stan, I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. To answer your specific questions, I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) the other is there. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. I hope this helps, regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Since you invited comment, I will. I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist. I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can, too. Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? Stan Sutterfield www.rv-8a.net Erich, I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked him about this very same issue. First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot about electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and a P/mag. After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13 and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle differences. Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the master there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for P-lead kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part of the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is well the motor keeps on humming. Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch are down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33 schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and if all is well you can't tell the difference. So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do the same thing just in slightly different ways. Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's own P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master on, both switches in the up position, mash the start button. But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say about this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide help. I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on this question can only help us and Emagair greatly. I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read anything directly from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks in the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For instance how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out. Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. Mike Ice _____ <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:40:20 AM PST US
    Subject: Emag Wiring
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    Yes the confusion is....The P lead is NOT the ground but when you do ground the Plead it kills the engine. You UN-Ground the P lead to allow the engine to run. The E/Pmag still needs a power supply and any power supply consists of a +12V feed and a ground. Thats why there are two grounds shown...terminal 1 is the power ground that has to be permanently connected to provide power to the unit. Frank RV 7a Pmag/Emag ________________________________ From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David & Elaine Lamphere Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:43 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Ok, here we go... page 20 in my documentation has pin 1 connected to engine case. Since the case is connected to the ground bus via a nice 4-8 gage flexible braided wire, it sure seems to me it's a main ground. Yes, pin 4 is the P-lead (kill switch) - this is to be connected to the ignition switch pin (L or R) where you would normally connect a mag. Notice that pin 5 is connected to +13.8vdc. This is what I would call main DC power. It really is very simple... Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Ice <mailto:aurbo@ak.net> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:02 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Dave, Thanks for the post. On the diagram I have there is no lead labeled Main ground, there is one labeled to ground on engine case. Is this one your calling the main ground? If so then I agree with you that the power and main ground are separate leads. In the instructions that I have for the e/p mags there is a diagram that shows the wiring sequence. On that diagram it shows a wire from the connector plug #4 that is labeled P-lead (Kill Switch). The other end of this wire shows that it is a ground with the same symbol used with the wire that goes to connector plug #1. Perhaps yours is different? Once again I am not putting down e/p mags. I just think (maybe wrongly) that there is some come confusion as to how to wire these mags. And perhaps I am the only one that is confused, wouldn't be the first time. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: David & Elaine Lamphere <mailto:lamphere@vabb.com> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:05 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came with my PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is grounded. It is NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and main ground are separate leads. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael T. Ice <mailto:aurbo@ak.net> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:45 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this straight at least to me. 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully power down. Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. Thanks for your help in this issue. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Stan, I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. Checking both generators is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly all is not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I don't consider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information and it is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. To answer your specific questions, I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) the other is there. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. I hope this helps, regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Mike, Since you invited comment, I will. I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. They are working out the bugs in their new system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any company selling a product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot assist. I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued operation on one internal alternator. Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. Surely we can, too. Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? Stan Sutterfield www.rv-8a.net Erich, I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend and I asked him about this very same issue. First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole lot about electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do have an E and a P/mag. After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13 and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle differences. Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn on the master there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the emags are for P-lead kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is turn on the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator part of the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power supply to the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and if all is well the motor keeps on humming. Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the switch are down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33 schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be able to cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the internal alternator check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle position and if all is well you can't tell the difference. So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both systems do the same thing just in slightly different ways. Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each mag has it's own P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. Master on, both switches in the up position, mash the start button. But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he has to say about this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the sights. He has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and provide help. I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog on this question can only help us and Emagair greatly. I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read anything directly from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem from us folks in the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. For instance how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the answer is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns out. Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. Mike Ice ________________________________ <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> . href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www. m atronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com


    Message 14


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    Time: 12:49:13 PM PST US
    From: Michael Ice <aurbo@ak.net>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Frank, Yes, I think that is part of the problem for me. I keep trying to relate these mags to the old style and it just doesn't work. But trying to erase many years of old and replacing it with new. Maybe it is age related. Thanks for your comments. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > Yes the confusion is....The P lead is NOT the ground but when you do > ground the Plead it kills the engine. You UN-Ground the P lead to > allowthe engine to run. > > The E/Pmag still needs a power supply and any power supply > consists of a > +12V feed and a ground. > > Thats why there are two grounds shown...terminal 1 is the power ground > that has to be permanently connected to provide power to the unit. > > Frank > > RV 7a Pmag/Emag > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > David& Elaine Lamphere > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:43 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > > Ok, here we go... page 20 in my documentation has pin 1 connected to > engine case. Since the case is connected to the ground bus via a nice > 4-8 gage flexible braided wire, it sure seems to me it's a main > ground. > Yes, pin 4 is the P-lead (kill switch) - this is to be connected > to the > ignition switch pin (L or R) where you would normally connect a > mag. > > Notice that pin 5 is connected to +13.8vdc. This is what I would call > main DC power. > > It really is very simple... > > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael T. Ice <mailto:aurbo@ak.net> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Dave, > > Thanks for the post. On the diagram I have there is no lead > labeled Main ground, there is one labeled to ground on engine > case. Is > this one your calling the main ground? If so then I agree with you > thatthe power and main ground are separate leads. > > In the instructions that I have for the e/p mags there is a > diagram that shows the wiring sequence. On that diagram it shows a > wirefrom the connector plug #4 that is labeled P-lead (Kill > Switch). The > other end of this wire shows that it is a ground with the same symbol > used with the wire that goes to connector plug #1. > > Perhaps yours is different? > > Once again I am not putting down e/p mags. I just think (maybe > wrongly) that there is some come confusion as to how to wire these > mags.And perhaps I am the only one that is confused, wouldn't be > the first > time. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David & Elaine Lamphere <mailto:lamphere@vabb.com> > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:05 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Mike, > > Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came > with my PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the > ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is > grounded. It > is NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and main ground are > separate leads. > > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael T. Ice <mailto:aurbo@ak.net> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Peter, > > Forgive me but I am trying to understand your > sequence of events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but > let me get this straight at least to me. > > 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded > or ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) > > 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now > there is no ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough > unless the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) > > Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't > reapply power to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the > ignition fully power down. > > Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to > clear up some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. > > Thanks for your help in this issue. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pengilly > <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag > Wiring > > Stan, > > I have been running an E-mag for 3 years > and have also swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to > wire a P-mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that > minimizes the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off > to a > P-mag whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an > E-mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the > othermag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags are > completely independent of each other. Checking both generators is > relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to stop one > P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there will be > one); now > turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting off ship's power > to the > P-mag), if the engine continues to run at the same rpm then all is > well.If the engine falters or runs roughly all is not well and the > generatoris suspect. Turn the switched breaker back on and repeat > on the other > P-mag. I've never had a problem with the generator and would recommend > anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the > failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep the > ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. > > The P-mag generator does not produce > current all of the time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus > voltagefalls below a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest > voltagesource available. I don't consider that a warning light > showing P-mag > generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will provide > the same information and it is not a critical failure that requires > immediate attention. > > To answer your specific questions, > > I am wondering (and I need to contact > Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag > alternatorfailure when running two Pmags on their internal > alternators. > > No, there is no indication. Each P-mag > doesn't know (and doesn't care) the other is there. > > For example, when I'm doing the mag > check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on internal > alternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that > Pmag is > now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other > indicationthat the chosen Pmag is not working? > > Best not to remove ship's power from > both P-mags at once, switch off power in turn when the p-lead > switch is > turned off. If the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's > poweris removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is > switchedoff. > > Even if there is no indication, I still > intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, > then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely > off and > check for continued operation on one internal alternator. > > There will be, and yes, your right, but > you have to do each in turn. > > I hope this helps, regards, Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: > owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Speedy11@aol.com > Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Mike, > Since you invited comment, I will. > > I haven't asked them, but I suspect the > Emag guys want to limit the variables as much as possible at this > juncture in their progress. They are working out the bugs in > their new > system and adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them > resolve problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend > builders use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the > builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should not > expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that would > not be > unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any company selling a > product - if the buyer deviates from recommended installation, > then the > company cannot assist. > > I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine > yet) and I am wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers > to provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead > switches. I > wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You can > check the internal alternator operation on the P model during run-up > (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting 12 volt > power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." > > I hesitate to deviate from the factory > recommended wiring procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and > recommended technique. Even Bob often says contact the > manufacturer and > follow their recommendations. > > I am wondering (and I need to contact > Emagair) if there will be any indication of one internal Pmag > alternatorfailure when running two Pmags on their internal > alternators. For > example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and both > Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the p-lead > switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will > there be > an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? > Even if there is no indication, I still > intend to do the check because if one internal alternator has failed, > then the only way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely > off and > check for continued operation on one internal alternator. > > Experimental aviation is challenging. > Fortunately, the original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) > succeededwith each challenge. Surely we can, too. > > Off subject - I assume from your comment > re:seminar that you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in > spring of > next year to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to > put on > floats. Any leads? > > Stan Sutterfield > www.rv-8a.net > > Erich, > > I had the pleasure of attending Bob's > seminar this past weekend and I asked him > about this very same issue. > > First the caveat. I am not an engineer > and don't claim to know a whole lot about > electrical theory or application. What I > am is curious and I do have an E and > a P/mag. > > After reading everything I can get my > hands on and studying the Z figures Z-13 > and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop > option I can detect only subtle differences. > > Emag powers the mags directly from the > main bus, so when you turn on the master > there is power at the mags. The switches > on the panel for the emags are for P-lead > kill switches. To do maintenance > (timing) all you have to do is turn on > the master and leave the panel switch > off. But to check the alternator part of > the P-Mag you have to put a separate > switch in line with the power supply to > the mag. When you do a run up check, you > turn this switch off and if all is well > the motor keeps on humming. > > Bob's design has the power go to a > switch first. The positions on the switch are > down is off, middle is for internal > power, up is for ships power. In the Z-33 > schematic you then have to add a switch > (and possibly a light) to be able to > cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance > (Timing). So to do the internal alternator > check all you have to do is flick the > switch to the middle position and > if all is well you can't tell the > difference. > > So what's the big difference. Both > systems use 3 switches. Both systems do the > same thing just in slightly different > ways. > > Personally I can see an advantage in the > Emag system where each mag has it's own > P-lead ground kill switch. Starting > sequence should be pretty easy. Master on, > both switches in the up position, mash > the start button. > > But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate > and I want to see what he has to say about > this. He is still here in Alaska and > touring around visiting the sights. He > has assured me that when he gets back he > will dig into this and provide help. > > I have sent an email to Emagair asking > the same questions. Open dialog on this > question can only help us and Emagair > greatly. > > I have not personally heard from the > guys at Emagair nor have I read anything directly > from them concerning this issue. Until I > do I will keep an open mind. > > > Perhaps this issue is a non-event and > some of the problems stem from us folks in > the field still trying to make these new > mags act like the old style. For instance > how can you perform a mag drop check if > there isn't one. Perhaps the answer > is who cares. I don't know but I am sure > interested in how this turns out. > > Please comment at will. Any dialog is > appreciated. > > Mike Ice > > > > > > ________________________________ > > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> > . > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > > > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 12:49:13 PM PST US
    From: Michael Ice <aurbo@ak.net>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Dave, Thanks for the clarification. Words often times confuse the issue. Now we are on the same page. I agree with your statements. Thank you. My troubles stem from trying to mix two wiring systems together and they don't mix well. So I believe it is best (for me) to follow the Emag wizards and their reccomendations to the letter. One again thanks for helping to clear the fog. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: David & Elaine Lamphere <lamphere@vabb.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > Ok, here we go... page 20 in my documentation has pin 1 connected > to engine case. Since the case is connected to the ground bus via > a nice 4-8 gage flexible braided wire, it sure seems to me it's a > main ground. > > Yes, pin 4 is the P-lead (kill switch) - this is to be connected > to the ignition switch pin (L or R) where you would normally > connect a mag. > > Notice that pin 5 is connected to +13.8vdc. This is what I would > call main DC power. > > It really is very simple... > > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael T. Ice > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 10:02 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > > Dave, > > Thanks for the post. On the diagram I have there is no lead > labeled Main ground, there is one labeled to ground on engine > case. Is this one your calling the main ground? If so then I agree > with you that the power and main ground are separate leads. > > In the instructions that I have for the e/p mags there is a > diagram that shows the wiring sequence. On that diagram it shows a > wire from the connector plug #4 that is labeled P-lead (Kill > Switch). The other end of this wire shows that it is a ground with > the same symbol used with the wire that goes to connector plug #1. > > Perhaps yours is different? > > Once again I am not putting down e/p mags. I just think (maybe > wrongly) that there is some come confusion as to how to wire these > mags. And perhaps I am the only one that is confused, wouldn't be > the first time. > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David & Elaine Lamphere > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:05 AM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > > Mike, > > Unless I have misunderstood the literature that came with my > PMag and Emag, the "P-Lead" is used as a control signal to the > ignition controller circuitry to shut off spark when it is > grounded. It is NOT the main ground to the unit. The power and > main ground are separate leads. > > Dave > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michael T. Ice > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > > Peter, > > Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of > events for checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me > get this straight at least to me. > > 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or > ungrounded? Emag says to use the P leads as kill switches) > > 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no > ground and no power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless > the other P-mag is doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) > > Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power > to the mag. They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition > fully power down. > > Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up > some confusing (perhaps only to me) issues. > > Thanks for your help in this issue. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pengilly > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > > Stan, > > > > I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also > swapped in a P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P- > mag is to route the power via a switched breaker, that minimizes > the number of connections. If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag > whose generator is not working, then the P-mag will act like an E- > mag and will not work. If you turn off the p-lead switch to the > other mag, the engine will quit. There is no magic here, 2 P-mags > are completely independent of each other. Checking both generators > is relatively easy, during the run up use the p-lead switch to > stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop (there > will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby shutting > off ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to run at > the same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs > roughly all is not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the > switched breaker back on and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never > had a problem with the generator and would recommend anyone > considering an E/P-mag to buy a P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the > failure of one generator is no big deal as the battery will keep > the ignition running if the ship's alternator were to fail. > > > > The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the > time (so E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below > a pre-set level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source > available. I don't consider that a warning light showing P-mag > generator failure will be worthwhile when a ground check will > provide the same information and it is not a critical failure that > requires immediate attention. > > > > To answer your specific questions, > > > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there > will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure > when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. > > > > No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and > doesn't care) the other is there. > > > > For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power > removed and both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I > turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally > inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other indication that > the chosen Pmag is not working? > > > > Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, > switch off power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If > the P-mag internal alternator is failed and ship's power is > removed the engine will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched > off. > > > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the > check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only > way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check > for continued operation on one internal alternator. > > > > There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do > each in turn. > > > > I hope this helps, regards, Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Speedy11@aol.com Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > > > Mike, > > Since you invited comment, I will. > > > > I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to > limit the variables as much as possible at this juncture in their > progress. They are working out the bugs in their new system and > adding other wiring methods to the mix doesn't help them resolve > problems. If I were in their position, I would recommend builders > use only the company recommended wiring procedure and if the > builder deviates from that recommendation then the builder should > not expect Emag assistance to resolve problems. I believe that > would not be unreasonable. I believe that would be true of any > company selling a product - if the buyer deviates from recommended > installation, then the company cannot assist. > > > > I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am > wiring them with two hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to > provide power from the bus and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. > I wired it this way because the Emag installation manual says "You > can check the internal alternator operation on the P model during > run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to the P model ignition and cutting > 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) at the breaker." > > > > I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring > procedure - despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended > technique. Even Bob often says contact the manufacturer and > follow their recommendations. > > > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there > will be any indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure > when running two Pmags on their internal alternators. For > example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and > both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the > p-lead switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), > will there be an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag > is not working? > > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the > check because if one internal alternator has failed, then the only > way to know may be to switch each Pmag completely off and check > for continued operation on one internal alternator. > > > > Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the > original OBAM builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each > challenge. Surely we can, too. > > > > Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that > you live in Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year > to fly the F-22 and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on > floats. Any leads? > > > > Stan Sutterfield > > www.rv-8a.net > > > > Erich, > > I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past > weekend and I asked him > about this very same issue. > > First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim > to know a whole lot about > electrical theory or application. What I am is curious > and I do have an E and > a P/mag. > > After reading everything I can get my hands on and > studying the Z figures Z-13 > and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can > detect only subtle differences. > > Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when > you turn on the master > there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel > for the emags are for P-lead > kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have > to do is turn on > the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check > the alternator part of > the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with > the power supply to > the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this > switch off and if all is well > the motor keeps on humming. > > Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The > positions on the switch are > down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for > ships power. In the Z-33 > schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a > light) to be able to > cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to > do the internal alternator > check all you have to do is flick the switch to the > middle position and > if all is well you can't tell the difference. > > So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 > switches. Both systems do the > same thing just in slightly different ways. > > Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system > where each mag has it's own > P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be > pretty easy. Master on, > both switches in the up position, mash the start button. > > But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to > see what he has to say about > this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around > visiting the sights. He > has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into > this and provide help. > > I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same > questions. Open dialog on this > question can only help us and Emagair greatly. > > I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor > have I read anything directly > from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep > an open mind. > > > Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the > problems stem from us folks in > the field still trying to make these new mags act like > the old style. For instance > how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. > Perhaps the answer > is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in > how this turns out. > > Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. > > Mike Ice > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >


    Message 16


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    Time: 12:49:13 PM PST US
    From: Michael Ice <aurbo@ak.net>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Peter, Thanks for the list. Clear as a bell now. I think I would do as you suggest and not check the P-mag internal alternator every flight either. How many hours do you have on your P-mags? Any troubles? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > Mike, > > I could probably have written a little more clearly. The object is to > get one P-mag running on its internal generator (by removing busbar > power), then cycle the other mag/P-mag to find out if the engine still > runs (I wrote it the other way around). If the engine runs, the > generator is good, if it does not generator is bad. > > So, probably the best sequence is > > 1. Carry out normal mag drop check to deduce "normal" mag drop. > Bear in mind there will always be an rpm drop when only a P/E-mag is > running, but that drop won't be as large as when only a magneto is > running. > 2. Shut off busbar power to one P-mag > 3. Switch off/ground other mag/P-mag (so it is not producing > sparks) > 4. Observe engine behaviour. Rpm drop as in 1 above = everything > working fine, other results require investigation. > 5. Restore switches to normal positions if generator is working > fine > 6. Repeat procedure from 2 above for other P-mag, if fitted. > > I don't check the P-mag generator every flight. > > Hope this is a little more clear. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michael T. Ice > Sent: 15 August 2007 04:45 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Peter, > > Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for > checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this > straightat least to me. > > 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag > saysto use the P leads as kill switches) > > 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground > and no > power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is > doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) > > Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the > mag.They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully > power down. > > Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some > confusing(perhaps only to me) issues. > > Thanks for your help in this issue. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pengilly <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Stan, > > I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a > P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to > route the > power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of > connections.If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator > is not working, > then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you > turn off > the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no > magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. > Checkingboth generators is relatively easy, during the run up use > the p-lead > switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop > (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby > shuttingoff ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to > run at the > same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly > all is > not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker > back on > and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the > generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a > P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big > dealas the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's > alternatorwere to fail. > > The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so > E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set > level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I > don'tconsider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure > will be > worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information > and it > is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. > > To answer your specific questions, > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any > indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two > Pmags on their internal alternators. > > No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) > the other is there. > > For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and > both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the > p-lead > switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will > there be > an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? > > Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off > power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag > internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine > will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. > > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because > if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know > may be > to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued > operation on > one internal alternator. > > There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. > > I hope this helps, regards, Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Speedy11@aol.com > Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Mike, > Since you invited comment, I will. > > I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the > variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. > Theyare working out the bugs in their new system and adding other > wiringmethods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I > were in > their position, I would recommend builders use only the company > recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that > recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to > resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I > believethat would be true of any company selling a product - if > the buyer > deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot > assist. > I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them > withtwo hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from > the bus > and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way > because the > Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator > operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to > the P > model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) > at the > breaker." > > I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring > procedure - > despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob > often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any > indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two > Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the > mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on > internalalternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag > (that Pmag is > now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other > indicationthat the chosen Pmag is not working? > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because > if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know > may be > to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued > operation on > one internal alternator. > > Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM > builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. > Surely we > can, too. > > Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in > Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the > F-22 > and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? > > Stan Sutterfield > www.rv-8a.net > > Erich, > > I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend > and I > asked him > about this very same issue. > > First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole > lot about > electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do > have an > E and > a P/mag. > > After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z > figures Z-13 > and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle > differences. > > Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn > on the > master > there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the > emags are > for P-lead > kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is > turn on > the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator > part of > the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power > supply to > the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and > if all > is well > the motor keeps on humming. > > Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the > switch are > down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. > In the > Z-33 > schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be > able to > cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the > internalalternator > check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle > position and > if all is well you can't tell the difference. > > So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both > systemsdo the > same thing just in slightly different ways. > > Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each > mag has > it's own > P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. > Master on, > both switches in the up position, mash the start button. > > But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he > has to > say about > this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the > sights.He > has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and > providehelp. > > I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog > on this > question can only help us and Emagair greatly. > > I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read > anything directly > from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. > > > Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem > from us > folks in > the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. > For instance > how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the > answer > is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns > out. > > Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. > > Mike Ice > > > > > > _____ > > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> > . > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 03:31:50 PM PST US
    Subject: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback'
    From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
    I'm still not sure whether it's electrical noise or acoustic noise - since covering the mic has some effect on the behavior. If it were just acoustic, covering the mic should stop the noise. More questions: - Is the acoustic squelch on the intercom adjustable? Can you set the threshold higher? Maybe pulling out the volume knob and turning it adjusts that? Or is it dynamic/smart adjusting? - What kind of engine is it? - Does it have separate ignition systems? Can you turn one off at a time (to help isolate electrical noise)? - Can you turn the alternator off with the engine running? - You probably answered this before, but with the engine off, does the intercom appear to work properly? Speaking in the mic on one headset yields sound coming from the other headset - using the radio sidetone? - Are you able to transmit/receiver properly when the engine is off? - Are the mic leads made with shielded wire? - Do other aspects of the electrical system all appear to function normally - bus voltage, nav signals, etc? Bob often recommends powering from a separate battery the piece(s) of equipment that are involved in the problem. A couple of lantern batteries could be used to power the radio while the engine is running.. If that has any effect on the noise, it indicates that the problem is conducted to the radio via the power bus. What would be slick for this kind of online debug process would be to have an online spreadsheet or form which could be used to document the problem, behaviors, and the things that have been tried in order to fix it.. Have to ponder that a bit. Regards, Matt- > 1. The radio is a Bendix/King KX155 > 2. It is approximately 1 year old. Don't know the model # but could find > out > 3. It definately has an internal intercom but i've no links to describe it > 4. I didn't check whether the sound varied depending on where your > head/headset is sitting, or by > bending the wires around on the headset, or the wires to the jack but it > occurred with 3 separate headsets and on both pilot and co-pilot outputs. > Pretty sure its not a headset problem as same headsets work fine in other > planes > 5. The noise gets worse with higher engine RPM but is very obvious even at > 1000 RPM. The character doesn't change - just its loudness > Many thanks > Frank > > ________________________________ > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Matt > Prather > Sent: Mon 13/08/2007 22:29 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback' > > > <mprather@spro.net> > > Interesting.. I wasn't aware that any KX155 has intercom. Okay. I see > the manual says it has 500ohm aux inputs, but don't see any reference to > intercom. We're talking about a Bendix/King KX-155, right? Do you have a > link to a file which describes the feature? > > Does the sound vary depending on where your head/headset is sitting, or by > bending the wires around on the headset, or the wires to the jack? > > Is the frequency of the whine/feedback dependent on the engine RPM? Or is > it just a steady tone? > > I agree with item 3 (assuming an intercom). > > > Regards, > > Matt- > > >> Matt >> 1. When i cover the mic with my hand (muff off) the character of the >> feedback alters significantly but is not overall reduced. If i move the >> boom away from my mouth and around to the back of my head then the >> feedback reduces but doesn't disappear. Its worse (louder) the closer >> the >> boom to my mouth. These symptoms occur on both left and right hand >> headsets >> 2. My KX155 has an internal intercom. I haven't tried to disconnect it. >> 3. Plugging in the mic jack should activate the intercom and the >> transmit >> on the radio (when PTT pressed) >> 4. Remember the problem only occurs when the engine is running. >> 5. Does anyone know how to adjust the mic gain (intercom volume control) >> on the KX155? Couldn't find this info in the installation manual. >> Kind regards >> Frank >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Matt >> Prather >> Sent: Mon 13/08/2007 20:12 >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback' >> >> >> >> <mprather@spro.net> >> >> Does it help if you cover the mic with your hand (both sides - pull the >> muff off)? >> >> I suspect that the input stage of your intercom is being overdriven by >> the >> acoustic noise of the engine. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Matt- >> >>> Thanks for your comments Ernest. >>> I've double-checked all the grounds i could find. Even took the whole >>> harness out (which was new) and had it double-checked. Nothing found. >>> If its the intercom in the radio why does it not cause the same problem >>> when the engine is off? >>> It only causes the problem when the engine is running >>> Kind regards >>> Frank >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> >>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Ernest >>> Christley >>> Sent: Mon 13/08/2007 15:04 >>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Nav/com 'acoustic feedback' >>> >>> >>> >>> <echristley@nc.rr.com> >>> >>> Miskelly, Francis G wrote: >>>> The KX155 nav/com in my Glastar has 2 problems which may be related. >>>> >>>> 1. Inserting the headphone jack i have near perfect reception. >>>> However, when i insert the microphone jack there is a loud whine >>>> suggestive of 'acoustic feedback'. Moving the boom away from my mouth >>>> reduces the whine. With a different headset it appears as lots of >>>> static noise which again changes with position of the boom. I've >>>> changed the aerial, power supply and checked all the earths. It occurs >>>> with either mag and when the generator is disconnected. It only >>>> happens when the engine is running. The radio's been bench tested and >>>> passed as good. >>>> >>>> 2. Radio reception is good with just the headphone jack inserted. >>>> However, insert the microphone jack and reception becomes very poor or >>>> disappears completely. I suspect the 'acoustic feedback' is raising >>>> the automatic squelch which is cutting off the radio station >>>> >>>> Can anyone suggest an explanation and a solution! >>>> Many thanks >>>> Frank >>> Since there is a problem with multiple headset, I would check the jack >>> first. The symptoms seem to imply some feedback from the mic to the >>> audio. Look for a short or a broken ground. Beyond that, it would >>> seem >>> circuitry withing the intercom is fritzed, and it gets much more >>> complicated. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 03:31:50 PM PST US
    From: "Peter Pengilly" <peter@sportingaero.com>
    Subject: Emag Wiring
    I now have around 140 hours total on 3 individual units. I bought the 10th E-mag built as the "factory" (a large shed in Tom's backyard) was 20 minutes from where I worked. I didn't have any issues with the 110 series unit. About 16 months ago that unit was replaced foc with a 113 series E-mag, at about the same time I bought a P-mag with the intention of replacing the other mag. The 113 series has always had an intermittent problem on start up where it doesn't always start up, ie is dead when mag checked and required the power to be cycled to bring it on line (this was before the current issues with powering down while the engine was turning). That was believed to be a firmware problem. When a firmware version update was available I swapped out the E-mag for the P-mag (which has not had any problems) and sent the E-mag back for updating. I have recently re-installed the E-mag (no real reason for the delay in re-installing, just never got around to it), with a similar, but slightly different problem, now evident. I now live a long way from the factory so we're trying to figure out how best to fix the problem, I'm flying again with the P-mag. Once again the P-mag is trouble free. Support from the E-magair folks has been outstanding. Since fitting the E-mag I have gained about 40rpm static, starting is improved (very rarely more than 3 blades) and performance at altitude is definitely better as is the ability to lean more aggressively. I was well aware that I was fitting an experimental ignition system when I installed the first E-mag - that is why I retained one mag, but its never been an issue in flight. I now think the P-mag is an inherently better solution to the ignition problem and would recommend one (or two) to anyone. I'm aware that some others have experienced problems, but E-magair seem committed to fully supporting their products. I am a happy customer. Peter O-320 with fixed pitch prop on an RV-6A -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Ice Sent: 15 August 2007 20:35 Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Thanks for the list. Clear as a bell now. I think I would do as you suggest and not check the P-mag internal alternator every flight either. How many hours do you have on your P-mags? Any troubles? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > Mike, > > I could probably have written a little more clearly. The object is to > get one P-mag running on its internal generator (by removing busbar > power), then cycle the other mag/P-mag to find out if the engine still > runs (I wrote it the other way around). If the engine runs, the > generator is good, if it does not generator is bad. > > So, probably the best sequence is > > 1. Carry out normal mag drop check to deduce "normal" mag drop. > Bear in mind there will always be an rpm drop when only a P/E-mag is > running, but that drop won't be as large as when only a magneto is > running. > 2. Shut off busbar power to one P-mag > 3. Switch off/ground other mag/P-mag (so it is not producing > sparks) > 4. Observe engine behaviour. Rpm drop as in 1 above = everything > working fine, other results require investigation. > 5. Restore switches to normal positions if generator is working > fine > 6. Repeat procedure from 2 above for other P-mag, if fitted. > > I don't check the P-mag generator every flight. > > Hope this is a little more clear. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michael T. Ice > Sent: 15 August 2007 04:45 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Peter, > > Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for > checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this > straightat least to me. > > 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag > saysto use the P leads as kill switches) > > 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground > and no > power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is > doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) > > Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the > mag.They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully > power down. > > Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some > confusing(perhaps only to me) issues. > > Thanks for your help in this issue. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pengilly <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Stan, > > I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a > P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to > route the > power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of > connections.If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator > is not working, > then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you > turn off > the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no > magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. > Checkingboth generators is relatively easy, during the run up use > the p-lead > switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop > (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby > shuttingoff ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to > run at the > same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly > all is > not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker > back on > and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the > generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a > P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big > dealas the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's > alternatorwere to fail. > > The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so > E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set > level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I > don'tconsider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure > will be > worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information > and it > is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. > > To answer your specific questions, > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any > indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two > Pmags on their internal alternators. > > No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) > the other is there. > > For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and > both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the > p-lead > switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will > there be > an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? > > Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off > power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag > internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine > will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. > > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because > if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know > may be > to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued > operation on > one internal alternator. > > There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. > > I hope this helps, regards, Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Speedy11@aol.com > Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Mike, > Since you invited comment, I will. > > I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the > variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. > Theyare working out the bugs in their new system and adding other > wiringmethods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I > were in > their position, I would recommend builders use only the company > recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that > recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to > resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I > believethat would be true of any company selling a product - if > the buyer > deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot > assist. > I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them > withtwo hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from > the bus > and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way > because the > Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator > operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to > the P > model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) > at the > breaker." > > I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring > procedure - > despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob > often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any > indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two > Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the > mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on > internalalternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag > (that Pmag is > now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other > indicationthat the chosen Pmag is not working? > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because > if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know > may be > to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued > operation on > one internal alternator. > > Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM > builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. > Surely we > can, too. > > Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in > Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the > F-22 > and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? > > Stan Sutterfield > www.rv-8a.net > > Erich, > > I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend > and I > asked him > about this very same issue. > > First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole > lot about > electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do > have an > E and > a P/mag. > > After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z > figures Z-13 > and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle > differences. > > Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn > on the > master > there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the > emags are > for P-lead > kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is > turn on > the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator > part of > the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power > supply to > the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and > if all > is well > the motor keeps on humming. > > Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the > switch are > down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. > In the > Z-33 > schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be > able to > cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the > internalalternator > check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle > position and > if all is well you can't tell the difference. > > So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both > systemsdo the > same thing just in slightly different ways. > > Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each > mag has > it's own > P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. > Master on, > both switches in the up position, mash the start button. > > But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he > has to > say about > this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the > sights.He > has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and > providehelp. > > I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog > on this > question can only help us and Emagair greatly. > > I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read > anything directly > from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. > > > Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem > from us > folks in > the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. > For instance > how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the > answer > is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns > out. > > Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. > > Mike Ice > > > > > > _____ > > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> > . > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:45:44 PM PST US
    From: "Michael T. Ice" <aurbo@ak.net>
    Subject: Re: Emag Wiring
    Peter, Many thanks for your write up on the e/p mags. I have bought one of each and will begin wiring them very soon. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:27 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring I now have around 140 hours total on 3 individual units. I bought the 10th E-mag built as the "factory" (a large shed in Tom's backyard) was 20 minutes from where I worked. I didn't have any issues with the 110 series unit. About 16 months ago that unit was replaced foc with a 113 series E-mag, at about the same time I bought a P-mag with the intention of replacing the other mag. The 113 series has always had an intermittent problem on start up where it doesn't always start up, ie is dead when mag checked and required the power to be cycled to bring it on line (this was before the current issues with powering down while the engine was turning). That was believed to be a firmware problem. When a firmware version update was available I swapped out the E-mag for the P-mag (which has not had any problems) and sent the E-mag back for updating. I have recently re-installed the E-mag (no real reason for the delay in re-installing, just never got around to it), with a similar, but slightly different problem, now evident. I now live a long way from the factory so we're trying to figure out how best to fix the problem, I'm flying again with the P-mag. Once again the P-mag is trouble free. Support from the E-magair folks has been outstanding. Since fitting the E-mag I have gained about 40rpm static, starting is improved (very rarely more than 3 blades) and performance at altitude is definitely better as is the ability to lean more aggressively. I was well aware that I was fitting an experimental ignition system when I installed the first E-mag - that is why I retained one mag, but its never been an issue in flight. I now think the P-mag is an inherently better solution to the ignition problem and would recommend one (or two) to anyone. I'm aware that some others have experienced problems, but E-magair seem committed to fully supporting their products. I am a happy customer. Peter O-320 with fixed pitch prop on an RV-6A -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Ice Sent: 15 August 2007 20:35 To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring Peter, Thanks for the list. Clear as a bell now. I think I would do as you suggest and not check the P-mag internal alternator every flight either. How many hours do you have on your P-mags? Any troubles? Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pengilly <peter@sportingaero.com> Date: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:25 am Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Mike, > > I could probably have written a little more clearly. The object is to > get one P-mag running on its internal generator (by removing busbar > power), then cycle the other mag/P-mag to find out if the engine still > runs (I wrote it the other way around). If the engine runs, the > generator is good, if it does not generator is bad. > > So, probably the best sequence is > > 1. Carry out normal mag drop check to deduce "normal" mag drop. > Bear in mind there will always be an rpm drop when only a P/E-mag is > running, but that drop won't be as large as when only a magneto is > running. > 2. Shut off busbar power to one P-mag > 3. Switch off/ground other mag/P-mag (so it is not producing > sparks) > 4. Observe engine behaviour. Rpm drop as in 1 above = everything > working fine, other results require investigation. > 5. Restore switches to normal positions if generator is working > fine > 6. Repeat procedure from 2 above for other P-mag, if fitted. > > I don't check the P-mag generator every flight. > > Hope this is a little more clear. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Michael T. Ice > Sent: 15 August 2007 04:45 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Peter, > > Forgive me but I am trying to understand your sequence of events for > checking the p-mag. Perhaps it is semantics but let me get this > straightat least to me. > > 1. turn off the p-lead (so the mag is grounded or ungrounded? Emag > saysto use the P leads as kill switches) > > 2. Then turn off the switched breaker ( so now there is no ground > and no > power? I imagine the engine might run rough unless the other P-mag is > doing the duty of both, I suspect it could) > > Emag says if the engine starts to quit, don't reapply power to the > mag.They say to let the engine stop and let the ignition fully > power down. > > Again, I am not doubting you I am just trying to clear up some > confusing(perhaps only to me) issues. > > Thanks for your help in this issue. > > Mike > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pengilly <mailto:peter@sportingaero.com> > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:35 AM > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Stan, > > I have been running an E-mag for 3 years and have also swapped in a > P-mag at times. My view is the best way to wire a P-mag is to > route the > power via a switched breaker, that minimizes the number of > connections.If ship's power is shut off to a P-mag whose generator > is not working, > then the P-mag will act like an E-mag and will not work. If you > turn off > the p-lead switch to the other mag, the engine will quit. There is no > magic here, 2 P-mags are completely independent of each other. > Checkingboth generators is relatively easy, during the run up use > the p-lead > switch to stop one P-mag from generating sparks, note the rpm drop > (there will be one); now turn off the switched breaker (thereby > shuttingoff ship's power to the P-mag), if the engine continues to > run at the > same rpm then all is well. If the engine falters or runs roughly > all is > not well and the generator is suspect. Turn the switched breaker > back on > and repeat on the other P-mag. I've never had a problem with the > generator and would recommend anyone considering an E/P-mag to buy a > P-mag. With 2 P-mags fitted the failure of one generator is no big > dealas the battery will keep the ignition running if the ship's > alternatorwere to fail. > > The P-mag generator does not produce current all of the time (so > E-magair tell me), only when the bus voltage falls below a pre-set > level. The P-mag will use the highest voltage source available. I > don'tconsider that a warning light showing P-mag generator failure > will be > worthwhile when a ground check will provide the same information > and it > is not a critical failure that requires immediate attention. > > To answer your specific questions, > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any > indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two > Pmags on their internal alternators. > > No, there is no indication. Each P-mag doesn't know (and doesn't care) > the other is there. > > For example, when I'm doing the mag check with 14V power removed and > both Pmags are running on internal alternators, if I turn off the > p-lead > switch to one Pmag (that Pmag is now totally inoperative), will > there be > an RPM drop or other indication that the chosen Pmag is not working? > > Best not to remove ship's power from both P-mags at once, switch off > power in turn when the p-lead switch is turned off. If the P-mag > internal alternator is failed and ship's power is removed the engine > will quit if the other mag's p-lead is switched off. > > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because > if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know > may be > to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued > operation on > one internal alternator. > > There will be, and yes, your right, but you have to do each in turn. > > I hope this helps, regards, Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Speedy11@aol.com > Sent: 14 August 2007 17:05 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Emag Wiring > > Mike, > Since you invited comment, I will. > > I haven't asked them, but I suspect the Emag guys want to limit the > variables as much as possible at this juncture in their progress. > Theyare working out the bugs in their new system and adding other > wiringmethods to the mix doesn't help them resolve problems. If I > were in > their position, I would recommend builders use only the company > recommended wiring procedure and if the builder deviates from that > recommendation then the builder should not expect Emag assistance to > resolve problems. I believe that would not be unreasonable. I > believethat would be true of any company selling a product - if > the buyer > deviates from recommended installation, then the company cannot > assist. > I have two Pmags (haven't run the engine yet) and I am wiring them > withtwo hidden 3A switched circuit breakers to provide power from > the bus > and two panel-mounted p-lead switches. I wired it this way > because the > Emag installation manual says "You can check the internal alternator > operation on the P model during run-up (900+ rpm) by switching to > the P > model ignition and cutting 12 volt power (not the p-lead switch) > at the > breaker." > > I hesitate to deviate from the factory recommended wiring > procedure - > despite Bob's depth of knowledge and recommended technique. Even Bob > often says contact the manufacturer and follow their recommendations. > > I am wondering (and I need to contact Emagair) if there will be any > indication of one internal Pmag alternator failure when running two > Pmags on their internal alternators. For example, when I'm doing the > mag check with 14V power removed and both Pmags are running on > internalalternators, if I turn off the p-lead switch to one Pmag > (that Pmag is > now totally inoperative), will there be an RPM drop or other > indicationthat the chosen Pmag is not working? > Even if there is no indication, I still intend to do the check because > if one internal alternator has failed, then the only way to know > may be > to switch each Pmag completely off and check for continued > operation on > one internal alternator. > > Experimental aviation is challenging. Fortunately, the original OBAM > builders (the Wright brothers) succeeded with each challenge. > Surely we > can, too. > > Off subject - I assume from your comment re:seminar that you live in > Alaska. My son in moving to AK in spring of next year to fly the > F-22 > and we are looking for a Piper Pacer to put on floats. Any leads? > > Stan Sutterfield > www.rv-8a.net > > Erich, > > I had the pleasure of attending Bob's seminar this past weekend > and I > asked him > about this very same issue. > > First the caveat. I am not an engineer and don't claim to know a whole > lot about > electrical theory or application. What I am is curious and I do > have an > E and > a P/mag. > > After reading everything I can get my hands on and studying the Z > figures Z-13 > and Z-33 for the Maintenance hand prop option I can detect only subtle > differences. > > Emag powers the mags directly from the main bus, so when you turn > on the > master > there is power at the mags. The switches on the panel for the > emags are > for P-lead > kill switches. To do maintenance (timing) all you have to do is > turn on > the master and leave the panel switch off. But to check the alternator > part of > the P-Mag you have to put a separate switch in line with the power > supply to > the mag. When you do a run up check, you turn this switch off and > if all > is well > the motor keeps on humming. > > Bob's design has the power go to a switch first. The positions on the > switch are > down is off, middle is for internal power, up is for ships power. > In the > Z-33 > schematic you then have to add a switch (and possibly a light) to be > able to > cut the P-lead so you can do maintenance (Timing). So to do the > internalalternator > check all you have to do is flick the switch to the middle > position and > if all is well you can't tell the difference. > > So what's the big difference. Both systems use 3 switches. Both > systemsdo the > same thing just in slightly different ways. > > Personally I can see an advantage in the Emag system where each > mag has > it's own > P-lead ground kill switch. Starting sequence should be pretty easy. > Master on, > both switches in the up position, mash the start button. > > But I am a confirmed Nuckoll's advocate and I want to see what he > has to > say about > this. He is still here in Alaska and touring around visiting the > sights.He > has assured me that when he gets back he will dig into this and > providehelp. > > I have sent an email to Emagair asking the same questions. Open dialog > on this > question can only help us and Emagair greatly. > > I have not personally heard from the guys at Emagair nor have I read > anything directly > from them concerning this issue. Until I do I will keep an open mind. > > > Perhaps this issue is a non-event and some of the problems stem > from us > folks in > the field still trying to make these new mags act like the old style. > For instance > how can you perform a mag drop check if there isn't one. Perhaps the > answer > is who cares. I don't know but I am sure interested in how this turns > out. > > Please comment at will. Any dialog is appreciated. > > Mike Ice > > > > > > _____ > > <http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour/?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000982> > . > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric- > List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >




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