Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:51 AM - Forrest from the Trees (Valovich, Paul)
2. 10:50 AM - EFIS as only reference??? (Ron Cox)
3. 11:42 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dj Merrill)
4. 11:44 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Chris Johnston)
5. 12:21 PM - I'm OK, just scrapes and cuts. (was: Bill Dube Doing OK?) (Bill Dube)
6. 12:22 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Bruce Gray)
7. 12:43 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dj Merrill)
8. 01:07 PM - Re: I'm OK, just scrapes and cuts. (was: Bill Dube Doing OK?) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
9. 01:10 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Bruce Gray)
10. 01:16 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Ernest Christley)
11. 01:24 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Harley)
12. 01:35 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
13. 01:45 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
14. 02:22 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dj Merrill)
15. 02:29 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
16. 02:29 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dj Merrill)
17. 02:30 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
18. 02:42 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dj Merrill)
19. 03:43 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike)
20. 05:36 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Nancy Ghertner)
21. 06:35 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
22. 06:48 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dj Merrill)
23. 07:04 PM - Re: Forrest from the Trees (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 07:43 PM - November Seminar Posted (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 07:44 PM - Re: Magneto Installation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 07:45 PM - Re: Starter cct. and temp rise. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 10:30 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Dave Saylor)
28. 10:59 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (The Kuffels)
29. 11:34 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Peter Pengilly)
30. 11:38 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Peter Pengilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Forrest from the Trees |
Bob,
I have spent an awful lot of time designing the electrical system for my
RV-8A based on your Z-13/8 diagram. I'm satisfied I have the major
points covered - but again a reminder that the devil is in the details.
So a couple basic questions (I tried the archives but couldn't find
exact answers):
Toggle Switches: What is the best alternative to the tabbed washer on
toggle switches? Will a lock washer or some other device eliminate the
need for tab holes?
Wing Root Disconnect - handling strobe wire shielding. I understand your
position on wing root disconnects, but for logistics purposes and
ability to work on wing tips, I need 'em. I have a source for the
disconnect plugs used by the rec vehicle folks. However, I'm confused
about how to handle the strobe wire shielding. Is it handled just like a
normal wire?
Thanks,
Paul Valovich
Message 2
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
> Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability?
> From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
...
> your reply that i have too many and the
> wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional"
> instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential.
Chris,
This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete about
the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems. As a
new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the
greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS add-on
system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's not
the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on it
to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in case of
failure of my primary (traditional) instruments.
But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do
indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical distribution
system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to fly
only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they don't
need to be on the "E-bus".
There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us are
looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven
reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the old
vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or
complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your E-bus
may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will be,
but how are you going to control the airplane????
Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it usuallyall
is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a
design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out how
to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest extent
possible.
I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your life
to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems. They're
great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of
criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There
isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems yet
to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone determine
whether it's low enough or not.
Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll find
a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell you
perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share of
"boy am I glad I had a backup" stories.
What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no backups?
There's a reason for that.
Ron Cox
(Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000 hours
flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we have
backups!)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Ron Cox wrote:
>
> There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of
> us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of
> proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that
> even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
>
> In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure,
> or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan?
> Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost
> surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane????
>
I'm not Chris, but I'll byte. You control the airplane with the
second smaller EFIS that is installed as a backup, of course... :-)
From a reliability/lack-of-single-point-failure perspective, it is
not necessary to have vacuum gauges in an airplane. Two EFIS systems of
different make (ie, a Dynon and a GRT for example) have such a
statistically small chance of failing during the same flight that it
approaches zero. A redundant electrical system and redundant EFIS units
are pretty much guaranteed to give you enough instrumentation to control
the airplane.
If one EFIS starts having the leans, which one do you believe? You
need a tie-breaker, which in my case is going to be an autopilot that
has its own reference source (separate from the EFIS units) and attitude
display indicator, such as the TruTrak ADI Pilot II that has an internal
gyro for example. With 3 references (2 EFIS units and the autopilot
display), it should be clear which is the faulty instrument.
It really comes down to training. If you are properly trained in
using the new EFIS systems, and scanning all three redundant sources,
there is no reason why the new systems would not be as safe, or perhaps
even safer, than the old systems that use vacuum gauges.
My opinion only,
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 4
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Sorry, I didn't intend to imply that I have no backups, but that the
backups are indeed electric. In the event of an alternator failure,
only the primary electric instruments are on the E-bus. The Backup
instrumentation has an internal battery that will keep it powered for
over an hour when power is removed. I definitely appreciate the
watchful eye that the more experienced pilots on the list have on us
young pups though!
cj
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Cox
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:48 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
> Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability?
> From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
...
> your reply that i have too many and the
> wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional"
> instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential.
Chris,
This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete
about
the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems.
As a
new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the
greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS
add-on
system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's
not
the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on
it
to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in
case of
failure of my primary (traditional) instruments.
But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do
indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical
distribution
system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to
fly
only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they
don't
need to be on the "E-bus".
There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us
are
looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven
reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the
old
vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or
complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your
E-bus
may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will
be,
but how are you going to control the airplane????
Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it
usuallyall
is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a
design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out
how
to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest
extent
possible.
I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your
life
to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems.
They're
great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of
criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There
isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems
yet
to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone
determine
whether it's low enough or not.
Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll
find
a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell
you
perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share
of
"boy am I glad I had a backup" stories.
What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no
backups?
There's a reason for that.
Ron Cox
(Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000
hours
flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we
have
backups!)
Message 5
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| Subject: | I'm OK, just scrapes and cuts. (was: Bill Dube Doing |
OK?)
I'm OK.
You can read the basics here:
http://www.killacycle.com
No helmet was the _really_ foolish part.
What I did was not nearly as foolish as what the NextFest had requested.
They wanted a "dignitary" to ride the bike in a parade. (I said this
would be way too dangerous.) Then they wanted me to do a demo as part of
a parade. (I said no. It would put innocent spectators at risk.) Thus,
it could have been a _lot_ worse than it was.
On a positive note: No one will think electric vehicles are "slow"
anymore. :-)
Bill D.
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
>Electric motorcycle inventor crashes at Wired NextFest
>Trendwatch
>By Humphrey Cheung
>Thursday, September 13, 2007 16:49
>
>Los Angeles (CA) - The inventor of the "KillaCycle" electric motorcycle almost
killed himself during a demonstration at the Wired NextFest conference. Bill
Dube, a government scientist during the day and electric bike builder at night,
did a "burn out" in front of the Los Angeles Convention Center, but accidentally
accelerated too much and crashed into a Minivan.
>
>Luckily we were able to interview Dube before the crash. He was quite proud of
his bike and told us that it was the quickest electric bike in existence. Using
A123 Systems lithium-ion batteries, the KillaCycle can go zero to 60 miles-per-hour
in a mind numbing .97 seconds. It also has a top speed of 158 MPH.
>
>Dube fatefully told us that the batteries are "more powerful than anything else"
on the market. Well they were indeed the most powerful because they hurtled
Dube and his bike into another vehicle. You can watch the demonstration and
initial interview in the above video.
>
>The crash threw Dube into the air and he landed on his back onto the hot Los Angeles
asphalt. Luckily he was conscious, breathing and had feeling in all his
fingers and toes. Paramedics from the Los Angeles Fire Department arrived and
took Dube to the hospital for x-rays.
>
>Do not archive
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of George, Neal E Capt MIL USAF 605TES/TSI
>Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 8:48 AM
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bill Dube Doing OK?
>
>
>
>Being stuck behind a completely irrational firewall, I can't see any of
>these reports. What's the story?
>
>neal
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent
smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
airplane, but with what? Turn all electrical whizzies off, switch or pull
breakers and turn the master back on. Bring up the first EFIS and hope you
don't smell anything. But wait, it takes 2 minutes to boot, not good. Still
have to fly the airplane. Hope it's not bumpy or you have a high ceiling to
recover before the splat.
Give me a vacuum backup AI gyro and all you'll have left is a dark and
stormy night story.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Ron Cox wrote:
>
> There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of
> us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of
> proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that
> even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
>
> In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure,
> or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan?
> Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost
> surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane????
>
I'm not Chris, but I'll byte. You control the airplane with the
second smaller EFIS that is installed as a backup, of course... :-)
From a reliability/lack-of-single-point-failure perspective, it is
not necessary to have vacuum gauges in an airplane. Two EFIS systems of
different make (ie, a Dynon and a GRT for example) have such a
statistically small chance of failing during the same flight that it
approaches zero. A redundant electrical system and redundant EFIS units
are pretty much guaranteed to give you enough instrumentation to control
the airplane.
If one EFIS starts having the leans, which one do you believe? You
need a tie-breaker, which in my case is going to be an autopilot that
has its own reference source (separate from the EFIS units) and attitude
display indicator, such as the TruTrak ADI Pilot II that has an internal
gyro for example. With 3 references (2 EFIS units and the autopilot
display), it should be clear which is the faulty instrument.
It really comes down to training. If you are properly trained in
using the new EFIS systems, and scanning all three redundant sources,
there is no reason why the new systems would not be as safe, or perhaps
even safer, than the old systems that use vacuum gauges.
My opinion only,
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent
> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>
In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 8
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| Subject: | I'm OK, just scrapes and cuts. (was: Bill Dube |
Doing OK?)
Dang!
I'm sure glad your OK Bill....Say do you know a flight instructor guy
called Jack Loflin...He seems to know you...And not just by
reputation....:)
Hope the bike is up and running soon.
Frank
Rv7 Oregon.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Dube
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 12:14 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: I'm OK, just scrapes and cuts. (was: Bill
Dube Doing OK?)
--> <William.P.Dube@noaa.gov>
I'm OK.
You can read the basics here:
http://www.killacycle.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your
rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the
master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand
with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different
system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go
through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do
it on the ground.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The
pungent
> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>
In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent
> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
> airplane, but with what? Turn all electrical whizzies off, switch or pull
> breakers and turn the master back on. Bring up the first EFIS and hope you
> don't smell anything. But wait, it takes 2 minutes to boot, not good. Still
> have to fly the airplane. Hope it's not bumpy or you have a high ceiling to
> recover before the splat.
>
> Give me a vacuum backup AI gyro and all you'll have left is a dark and
> stormy night story.
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
Bruce, I've installed a vacuum powered T&B, and I have a steam powered
ASI and altimeter, so I'm on board with you about the steam backups to
the Dynon I'm planning.
But...2 minutes to reboot? I thought the Grand Rapids was ridiculously
long at 30 seconds or so (don't remember exactly). The Dynon comes up
and orients itself fast enough not to matter.
The argument is sound, let's just keep it real on the details 8*)
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it
keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator.
Harley Dixon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your
> rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the
> master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand
> with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different
> system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go
> through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do
> it on the ground.
>
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
> Merrill
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>
>>
>> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
>> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The
>>
> pungent
>
>> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
>> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>>
>>
>
> In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
> would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
> sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
> battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
> electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
> You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
> turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
> not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
>
> Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
> all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
>
> -Dj
> do not archive
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Good Afternoon Bruce,
A standard needle and ball Turn and Bank instrument is more reliable,
lighter, and cheaper than any attitude gyro.
Even the crummy Turn Coordinator is cheaper, lighter, and more reliable than
the Attitude Gyro, but not quite as reliable as the T&B.
While I certainly expect someone to design a more modern rate of turn
instrument, the T&B is still the best safety instrument you can have on the
airplane.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 9/17/2007 2:25:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Bruce@glasair.org writes:
Give me a vacuum backup AI gyro and all you'll have left is a dark and
stormy night story.
Bruce
Message 13
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
While with an older, certified plane the first thing you would do is
turn off the mater, in today's properly designed electrical system that
is the last thing you would do. A checklist with the proper steps
identified will help you properly identify the offending circuit and
solve the situation without going dark or engineless.
I also second what Dj is stating, if you build your electrically
dependant panel/ engine correctly you will not have an issue such as the
one described. My panel is such that I select essential and the
engine/prop controller and fuel pump stay on, everything else is dumped.
Then I have a fully charged Dynon, fully charged 496, and a fully
charged handheld radio to continue the flight with, and following my
checklist I can begin to bring systems back on line until I find the
offending circuit.
The key to flying glass is redundancy, with backup power, and the proper
training to understand the systems you are working with. In the modern
day world of 'tron dependant engines, it is with Bob's and others help
that we will build robust electrical systems that will support the
mission for each builder. The experimental category is there for us to
learn, and lamb basting a fellow builder for their choice solves
nothing. But educating them on the associated risks and helping
determine the best backup solutions is better.
But more importantly just doing things one way because that is the way
we always have done it is ridiculous and counter productive to what we
are trying to accomplish in the experimental world. Rather it is us
crazy builders who continue to push the envelope that make progress, and
with well thought out plans and the proper execution it is done safely,
or at least safely as can be.
Dan
N289DT RV10E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Bruce Gray wrote:
<Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face
when
> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The
pungent
> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you
do?
> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>
In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Bruce Gray wrote:
> You need a backup AI powered by a different
> system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go
> through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do
> it on the ground.
>
I agree, but that backup AI can be another EFIS from a different
manufacturer, with its own internal battery, on a backup electrical
system. It does not need to be vacuum gauges.
In an electrically dependent airplane, having a single switch that
can fail and take out your entire electrical system is a Bad Design. In
a non-electrically dependent airplane, it doesn't matter as much.
I don't think it is terribly difficult to design a safe, reliable
and redundant electrical system for an electrically dependent airplane.
That is, after all, one of the primary discussion points for this
mailing list... :-)
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 15
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There are better
ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. If it's still a
concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag.
Michael Sausen
RV-10
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it
keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator.
Harley Dixon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your
> rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the
> master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand
> with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different
> system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go
> through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do
> it on the ground.
>
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
> Merrill
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>
>>
>> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
>> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The
>>
> pungent
>
>> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
>> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>>
>>
>
> In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
> would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
> sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
> battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
> electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
> You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
> turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
> not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
>
> Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
> all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
>
> -Dj
> do not archive
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Ernest Christley wrote:
>
>
> But...2 minutes to reboot? I thought the Grand Rapids was
> ridiculously long at 30 seconds or so (don't remember exactly). The
> Dynon comes up and orients itself fast enough not to matter.
Hi Ernest,
Actually, some of the EFIS units do take 2 minutes to calibrate
(time from power up until they are useful). Items like this need to be
taken into account in the design of the system and associated failure
modes and emergency checklists.
I agree completely with Bruce that backups are necessary, and
emergency responses should be easy and not require significant thought.
I just don't agree that it needs to be done with vacuum gauges... :-)
Proper design and training is the key.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 17
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Hope you have a flashlight out and on to see that gyro! :-)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent
smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
airplane, but with what? Turn all electrical whizzies off, switch or pull
breakers and turn the master back on. Bring up the first EFIS and hope you
don't smell anything. But wait, it takes 2 minutes to boot, not good. Still
have to fly the airplane. Hope it's not bumpy or you have a high ceiling to
recover before the splat.
Give me a vacuum backup AI gyro and all you'll have left is a dark and
stormy night story.
Bruce
www.Glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Merrill
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Ron Cox wrote:
>
> There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of
> us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of
> proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that
> even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
>
> In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure,
> or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan?
> Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost
> surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane????
>
I'm not Chris, but I'll byte. You control the airplane with the
second smaller EFIS that is installed as a backup, of course... :-)
From a reliability/lack-of-single-point-failure perspective, it is
not necessary to have vacuum gauges in an airplane. Two EFIS systems of
different make (ie, a Dynon and a GRT for example) have such a
statistically small chance of failing during the same flight that it
approaches zero. A redundant electrical system and redundant EFIS units
are pretty much guaranteed to give you enough instrumentation to control
the airplane.
If one EFIS starts having the leans, which one do you believe? You
need a tie-breaker, which in my case is going to be an autopilot that
has its own reference source (separate from the EFIS units) and attitude
display indicator, such as the TruTrak ADI Pilot II that has an internal
gyro for example. With 3 references (2 EFIS units and the autopilot
display), it should be clear which is the faulty instrument.
It really comes down to training. If you are properly trained in
using the new EFIS systems, and scanning all three redundant sources,
there is no reason why the new systems would not be as safe, or perhaps
even safer, than the old systems that use vacuum gauges.
My opinion only,
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
>
> Hope you have a flashlight out and on to see that gyro! :-)
>
> Do not archive
>
Seriously, though, how about a backup battery on the lighting for
the gyro, with its own separate power switch? If everything else goes
dark, you'd still be able to see and use your vacuum powered backup AI
without fumbling in the dark for a light. Or you could just always wear
a clip-on mic light, and have it as a part of your night-flying
preflight checklist.
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill - N1JOV
Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 19
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Ron,
I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under
part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the
Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the
backup is now an EFIS display.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Cox
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:48 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
> Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability?
> From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
...
> your reply that i have too many and the
> wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional"
> instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential.
Chris,
This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete
about
the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems.
As a
new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the
greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS
add-on
system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's
not
the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on
it
to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in
case of
failure of my primary (traditional) instruments.
But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do
indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical
distribution
system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to
fly
only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they
don't
need to be on the "E-bus".
There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us
are
looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven
reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the
old
vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or
complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your
E-bus
may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will
be,
but how are you going to control the airplane????
Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it
usuallyall
is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a
design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out
how
to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest
extent
possible.
I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your
life
to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems.
They're
great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of
criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There
isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems
yet
to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone
determine
whether it's low enough or not.
Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll
find
a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell
you
perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share
of
"boy am I glad I had a backup" stories.
What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no
backups?
There's a reason for that.
Ron Cox
(Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000
hours
flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we
have
backups!)
7/29/2007 11:14 PM
7/29/2007 11:14 PM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
As DJ probably knows from the Glasair user group, I slowly became a Bruce
Gray convert, particularly after I had a gyro failure on my Blue Mountain
EFIS/one and a complete and sudden failure with my "backup" Dynon D10. I
have backup standard instruments but the failure of both EFIS's did occur.
And that was on the ground.
Lory Ghertner
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>>
>> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
>> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent
>> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do?
>> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>>
>
> In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
> would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
> sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
> battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
> electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
> You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
> turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
> not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
>
> Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
> all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
>
> -Dj
> do not archive
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
In a message dated 09/17/2007 12:53:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
flyboyron@gmail.com writes:
In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or
complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan?
>>>
Trutrak ADI.
However, with Z architecture, it will likely always be a panel ornament, but
it is still there, JIC...
Mark do not archive
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Nancy Ghertner wrote:
>
> As DJ probably knows from the Glasair user group, I slowly became a Bruce
> Gray convert, particularly after I had a gyro failure on my Blue Mountain
> EFIS/one and a complete and sudden failure with my "backup" Dynon D10. I
> have backup standard instruments but the failure of both EFIS's did occur.
> And that was on the ground.
Hi Lory,
Are you saying that both the Dynon and the Blue Mountain unit failed at
the same exact time?
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/
"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an
airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Forrest from the Trees |
At 11:49 AM 9/17/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>I have spent an awful lot of time designing the electrical system for my
>RV-8A based on your Z-13/8 diagram. I m satisfied I have the major points
>covered but again a reminder that the devil is in the details. So a couple
>basic questions (I tried the archives but couldn t find exact answers):
>
>
>Toggle Switches: What is the best alternative to the tabbed washer on
>toggle switches? Will a lock washer or some other device eliminate the
>need for tab holes?
Many folks have assembled without the tabbed washers. What's
the big downside? I put the washers on the back side and
cover the tab-holes with the switch panel overlay. Easy
to lay out, fabricate, assemble and the holes disappear
behind the overlays.
>
>
>Wing Root Disconnect handling strobe wire shielding. I understand your
>position on wing root disconnects, but for logistics purposes and ability
>to work on wing tips, I need em. I have a source for the disconnect plugs
>used by the rec vehicle folks. However, I m confused about how to handle
>the strobe wire shielding. Is it handled just like a normal wire?
Shields are handled on their own pin like the other
wires.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 24
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| Subject: | November Seminar Posted |
Plans are finalized for a Nov 10/11 weekend seminar in
Ray, Michigan . . . about 35 miles north of Detroit
just off I-94. Details are posted at:
http://aeroelectric.com/seminars/Ray.html
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Magneto Installation |
At 07:49 PM 9/16/2007 -0500, you wrote:
><dpharker@worldnet.att.net>
>
>Am wiring up a Slick 4375 on a 7A. I am finally straightened out on the
>wiring per Bob's diagram Z-13. My question is should I see infinite
>resistance across the P-Lead and ground when the switch is open or am I
>going to see zero ohms because of the points in the magneto? Any input
>would be appreciated.
The DC resistance looking into the p-lead of a magneto
is VERY LOW whether or not the points are open. This is
why you need the electro-mechanical or more modern electronic
"buzz" box to sense the AC resistance of the magneto.
Short answer is that for most meters, the input to the
magneto p-lead port looks like a dead short all the time.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Starter cct. and temp rise. |
At 07:05 PM 9/16/2007 +0100, you wrote:
>
>
>"On the other hand, an RV with the battery right behind the Firewall can
>tolerate 4AWG cranking circuits because the
>round trip is only 4 or 5 feet long." Ref article :Wire Size Selection /
>Bob Nuckolls
>
>
>I have been thinking of wiring up the starter cct on an O-320 with #4
>since the run is very short, but it leads me to a couple of questions:
>
>1) Anyone know the temp rise on the wire for 250 amps for say 5 secs? (I
>never crank this long normally.)
Don't worry about it. The whole airplane's fat wires
can be 4AWG except for LONG runs where we go to 2AWG
to minimize wire drop.
>2) Anyone know what the starter current drops to, once the starter is up
>to speed?
About 200A depending on temperature and starter style.
But 4AWG is going to be fine.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( "Problems are the price of progress. )
( Don't bring me anything but trouble. )
( Good news weakens me." )
( -Charles F. Kettering- )
----------------------------------------
Message 27
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Can you describe what happened to the D10? That's my intended backup too.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
140 Aviation Way
Watsonville, CA
831-722-9141
831-750-0284 CL
www.AirCraftersLLC.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nancy
Ghertner
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
--> <nghertner@verizon.net>
As DJ probably knows from the Glasair user group, I slowly became a Bruce
Gray convert, particularly after I had a gyro failure on my Blue Mountain
EFIS/one and a complete and sudden failure with my "backup" Dynon D10. I
have backup standard instruments but the failure of both EFIS's did occur.
And that was on the ground.
Lory Ghertner
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>> --> <Bruce@glasair.org>
>>
>> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face
>> when all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke.
>> The pungent smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first
thing you do?
>> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly
>> the
>>
>
> In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
> would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent
> electrical sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its
> own internal battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units
> or both electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit
foolish.
> You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop,
> you turn the first back on the the other off. The most important
> thing is not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
>
> Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
> all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
>
> -Dj
> do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS as only reference??? |
Bruce,
<< I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe
me, your rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your
hand reaches for the master switch. I don't know how you plan to
wire your airplane but I stand with my earlier assessment. You
need a backup AI powered by a different system. It's so much
easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go through your
rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do it
on the ground. >>
Don't disagree about needing backup but don't think we need all
the extra stuff you imply. Am comfortable with the setup I'm
putting on my GlaStar Sportsman:
One alternator, one battery (well technically, 3 batteries), one
manual (guarded) switch for the essential bus source, one Dynon
EFIS/EMS, one hand held (panel mount) Garmin, one Trio autopilot
with auto pitch trim control.
Come a failure of Dynon, Garmin or Trio I declare a precautionary
emergency and head to nearest VFR weather or nearest approach.
Come the smell of smoke I rationally hit the master switch. My
Dynon and Garmin switch to and continue to run on their fully
charged internal batteries. This process is tested every time I
shut down so I know it will work. I have 30 seconds to press any
button on each unit for them to continue on internal batteries.
Now there is over an hour to: fly the airplane, gather my wits
about me, turn off all electrical including all avionics at their
boxes, switch the essential bus to direct battery connection, if
needed turn on the instrument/cockpit lighting (about 100 ma),
then turn on one at a time the autopilot head, avionics master
(sorry Bob) and essential avionics (usually only the Icom Comm
but also perhaps the ILS receiver for the shortest time possible)
declare a real emergency and head to nearest VFR weather or
nearest approach. Anytime smoke/smell reappears in the above
process the offending power sink is turned back off.
The only steam gauges on the panel are airspeed and altitude.
But they are not IFR backup, I need those numbers for safe VFR
flight and landing.
Tom Kuffel
Message 29
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Michael,
You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly because
of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users around, I'm one
of them.
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder
(Michael Sausen)
Sent: 17 September 2007 22:27
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There are
better ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. If it's
still a concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag.
Michael Sausen
RV-10
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it
keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator.
Harley Dixon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Gray wrote:
>
> I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your
> rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the
> master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand
> with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different
> system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go
> through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do
> it on the ground.
>
>
> Bruce
> www.Glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj
> Merrill
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
>
>
> Bruce Gray wrote:
>
>>
>> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when
>> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The
>>
> pungent
>
>> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you
do?
>> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the
>>
>>
>
> In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that
> would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical
> sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal
> battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both
> electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish.
> You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you
> turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is
> not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in.
>
> Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and
> all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story.
>
> -Dj
> do not archive
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | EFIS as only reference??? |
Mike,
You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25
aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards
far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They
are not comparable.
Regards, Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: 17 September 2007 23:41
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
Ron,
I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under
part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the
Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the
backup is now an EFIS display.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Cox
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:48 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference???
> Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability?
> From: "Chris Johnston" <CJohnston@popsound.com>
>
...
> your reply that i have too many and the
> wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional"
> instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential.
Chris,
This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete
about
the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems.
As a
new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the
greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS
add-on
system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's
not
the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on
it
to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in
case of
failure of my primary (traditional) instruments.
But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do
indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical
distribution
system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to
fly
only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they
don't
need to be on the "E-bus".
There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us
are
looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven
reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the
old
vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you.
In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or
complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your
E-bus
may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will
be,
but how are you going to control the airplane????
Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it
usuallyall
is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a
design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out
how
to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest
extent
possible.
I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your
life
to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems.
They're
great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of
criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There
isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems
yet
to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone
determine
whether it's low enough or not.
Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll
find
a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell
you
perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share
of
"boy am I glad I had a backup" stories.
What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no
backups?
There's a reason for that.
Ron Cox
(Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000
hours
flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we
have
backups!)
7/29/2007 11:14 PM
7/29/2007 11:14 PM
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