---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/18/07: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:31 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Bruce Gray) 2. 01:24 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Werner Schneider) 3. 02:39 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Nancy Ghertner) 4. 02:55 AM - Switches (JOHN TIPTON) 5. 04:08 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Ernest Christley) 6. 06:56 AM - Re: Switches (Ron Quillin) 7. 07:49 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Fergus Kyle) 8. 09:02 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 9. 10:02 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 10. 10:02 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 11. 10:08 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 12. 10:34 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 13. 12:11 PM - Re: Starter cct. and temp rise. (Steve Sampson) 14. 06:58 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 15. 07:14 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 16. 08:03 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 17. 08:40 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Bruce Gray) 18. 09:38 PM - Re: P/E mag spin off (Michael T. Ice) 19. 11:16 PM - Cessna Split Switch (mike humphrey) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:11 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Ron is a Line Captain flying B7XX for UAL. I'm sure that standby EFIS of which you talk is higher priced than my entire panel. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:38 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Mike, You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25 aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They are not comparable. Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: 17 September 2007 23:41 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Ron, I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the backup is now an EFIS display. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Cox Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:48 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability? > From: "Chris Johnston" > ... > your reply that i have too many and the > wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional" > instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential. Chris, This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete about the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems. As a new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS add-on system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's not the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on it to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in case of failure of my primary (traditional) instruments. But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical distribution system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to fly only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they don't need to be on the "E-bus". There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you. In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane???? Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it usuallyall is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out how to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest extent possible. I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your life to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems. They're great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems yet to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone determine whether it's low enough or not. Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll find a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell you perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share of "boy am I glad I had a backup" stories. What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no backups? There's a reason for that. Ron Cox (Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000 hours flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we have backups!) 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:00 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Not necessarily, an EFIS with internal power should gracefully ask if you really want to shutdown and give you some time to acknowledge (at least my Dynon does) but I agree you should have a system able to cope with that, whatever setup you choose. And I agree also with Bruce in case of smoke there is not a lot time of thinking you switch it off and for IMC the design of your plane needs to take that in account. How that's done, to everyone its own but make a good assessment before you test it in real life and yes training is for sure as important as the technical redundancy! Werner Bruce Gray wrote: > > I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when > all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The pungent > smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do? > Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the > airplane, but with what? Turn all electrical whizzies off, switch or pull > breakers and turn the master back on. Bring up the first EFIS and hope you > don't smell anything. But wait, it takes 2 minutes to boot, not good. Still > have to fly the airplane. Hope it's not bumpy or you have a high ceiling to > recover before the splat. > > Give me a vacuum backup AI gyro and all you'll have left is a dark and > stormy night story. > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj > Merrill > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:37 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > Ron Cox wrote: > >> There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of >> us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of >> proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that >> even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you. >> >> In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, >> or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? >> Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost >> surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane???? >> >> > I'm not Chris, but I'll byte. You control the airplane with the > second smaller EFIS that is installed as a backup, of course... :-) > > From a reliability/lack-of-single-point-failure perspective, it is > not necessary to have vacuum gauges in an airplane. Two EFIS systems of > different make (ie, a Dynon and a GRT for example) have such a > statistically small chance of failing during the same flight that it > approaches zero. A redundant electrical system and redundant EFIS units > are pretty much guaranteed to give you enough instrumentation to control > the airplane. > > If one EFIS starts having the leans, which one do you believe? You > need a tie-breaker, which in my case is going to be an autopilot that > has its own reference source (separate from the EFIS units) and attitude > display indicator, such as the TruTrak ADI Pilot II that has an internal > gyro for example. With 3 references (2 EFIS units and the autopilot > display), it should be clear which is the faulty instrument. > > It really comes down to training. If you are properly trained in > using the new EFIS systems, and scanning all three redundant sources, > there is no reason why the new systems would not be as safe, or perhaps > even safer, than the old systems that use vacuum gauges. > > My opinion only, > > -Dj > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:33 AM PST US From: Nancy Ghertner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > Nancy Ghertner wrote: >> >> >> As DJ probably knows from the Glasair user group, I slowly became a Bruce >> Gray convert, particularly after I had a gyro failure on my Blue Mountain >> EFIS/one and a complete and sudden failure with my "backup" Dynon D10. I >> have backup standard instruments but the failure of both EFIS's did occur. >> And that was on the ground. > > Hi Lory, > Are you saying that both the Dynon and the Blue Mountain unit failed at > the same exact time? > > -Dj > do not archive It seems to be true. I tested my panel one day and everything appeared fine. As I started taxi testing the blue mountain said I was in a spin and the Dynon remained black. The blue mountain went back for replacement of the y axis gyro and returned in 2 weeks. The Dynon had some of its guts replaced but it took in excess of one month to be returned. All connections were good and the internal battery would not even start it up. Lory Ghertner ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:56 AM PST US From: "JOHN TIPTON" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switches Hi Guys I'm considering buying some 'Eaton/Honeywell' switches, however for (as an example) a simple flap switch they can offer 'centre off' or 'centre none' - what is the difference between OFF and NONE John ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:42 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Dj Merrill wrote: > > Ernest Christley wrote: > >> But...2 minutes to reboot? I thought the Grand Rapids was >> ridiculously long at 30 seconds or so (don't remember exactly). The >> Dynon comes up and orients itself fast enough not to matter. >> > > Hi Ernest, > Actually, some of the EFIS units do take 2 minutes to calibrate > (time from power up until they are useful). > WOW! I haven't seen one of those, but...WOW! I'm sure that is useful for someone, but I still think 30sec was way to long for an EFIS aimed at GA aircraft. -- "Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, with chocolate in one hand and wine in the other, loudly proclaiming 'WOO HOO What a Ride!'" --Unknown ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:56:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switches From: Ron Quillin At 02:55 9/18/2007, you wrote: >Hi Guys > >I'm considering buying some 'Eaton/Honeywell' switches, however for >(as an example) a simple flap switch they can offer 'centre off' or >'centre none' - what is the difference between OFF and NONE > >John OFF is a three position switch, one side, center, the other side. NONE is a two position switch, one side, no center, the other side. Some OFF switches do maintain electrical continuity with selected contacts, check the switch diagram. Ron Q. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:04 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: EFIS as only reference??? Cheers, The subject title may be a misnomer since most of us have other indicators installed independent of the EFIS. My support falls to Old Bob, with a small corollary. We learned "Needle, Ball and Airspeed" - simple instruments which in a pinch can be used to save a life (or two). This has been hashed out before. A PDA can replace the EFIS screen or an AoA gauge can replace the airspeed. So my lifetime of flying corresponds with his and says: Needle, ball and airspeed/AoA now. Ferg Europa A064 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:31 AM PST US From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? True, but the SNR on failures and problems is still too high for me personally to use in a "most" weather capable mission profile. Personal choice. If my profile was day VFR I might have a different opinion. Michael -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:33 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Michael, You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly because of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users around, I'm one of them. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: 17 September 2007 22:27 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There are better ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. If it's still a concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag. Michael Sausen RV-10 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator. Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Gray wrote: > > I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your > rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the > master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand > with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different > system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go > through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do > it on the ground. > > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj > Merrill > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> >> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when >> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The >> > pungent > >> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do? >> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the >> >> > > In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that > would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical > sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal > battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both > electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish. > You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you > turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is > not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in. > > Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and > all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story. > > -Dj > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:07 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Peter, How do you know! I'm sure all that part 25 stuff has nice stamps on the paperwork but it is still put together by people. How do you know the stuff that we buy won't make the standard? Having to meet FAA standards cost money, don't you believe that a product could meet a standard without the government? For example, the autopilots out there certified for use in small planes are in my 28 years of experience less or equal to the Truetrak product. Also the Chelton system is certified to part 25 standards by TSO and is under $100,000. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:38 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Mike, You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25 aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They are not comparable. Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: 17 September 2007 23:41 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Ron, I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the backup is now an EFIS display. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Cox Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:48 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability? > From: "Chris Johnston" > ... > your reply that i have too many and the > wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional" > instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential. Chris, This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete about the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems. As a new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS add-on system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's not the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on it to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in case of failure of my primary (traditional) instruments. But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical distribution system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to fly only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they don't need to be on the "E-bus". There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you. In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane???? Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it usuallyall is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out how to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest extent possible. I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your life to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems. They're great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems yet to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone determine whether it's low enough or not. Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll find a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell you perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share of "boy am I glad I had a backup" stories. What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no backups? There's a reason for that. Ron Cox (Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000 hours flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we have backups!) 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:53 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I have seen a dual E-mag failure! Fortunately their was a road in the hills and nothing was lost except a few years of life. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:33 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Michael, You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly because of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users around, I'm one of them. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: 17 September 2007 22:27 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There are better ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. If it's still a concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag. Michael Sausen RV-10 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator. Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Gray wrote: > > I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your > rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the > master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand > with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different > system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go > through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do > it on the ground. > > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj > Merrill > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> >> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when >> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The >> > pungent > >> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do? >> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the >> >> > > In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that > would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical > sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal > battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both > electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish. > You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you > turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is > not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in. > > Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and > all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story. > > -Dj > do not archive > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:08 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Bruce, I address the statement " Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll find a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell you perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share of "boy am I glad I had a backup" stories." Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:30 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Ron is a Line Captain flying B7XX for UAL. I'm sure that standby EFIS of which you talk is higher priced than my entire panel. Bruce www.Glasair.org 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yes but what exactly do you mean by a dual failure?....Did they both quit or did just one of them lose its timing and cause hight CHT's through detonation...That in itself is not a dual failure of course but it can bring the airplane down if you don't recognise the issue and shut the bad mag down. That's what happened to an RV 9 I believe....and it wasn't due to an installation issues. The above scenario did happen to me although the engine kept running. I have over 150 hours since the recent upgrades and I have not heard of any further issues exept for magnets that can become dislodged, which I believe has also now been remedied. As of right now I am satisfied with their reliability. frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:03 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I have seen a dual E-mag failure! Fortunately their was a road in the hills and nothing was lost except a few years of life. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:33 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Michael, You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly because of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users around, I'm one of them. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: 17 September 2007 22:27 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There are better ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. If it's still a concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag. Michael Sausen RV-10 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator. Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Gray wrote: > > I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your > rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the > master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand > with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different > system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go > through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do > it on the ground. > > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj > Merrill > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> >> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when >> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The >> > pungent > >> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do? >> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the >> >> > > In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that > would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical > sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal > battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both > electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish. > You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you > turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is > not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in. > > Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and > all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story. > > -Dj > do not archive > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:11:36 PM PST US From: "Steve Sampson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter cct. and temp rise. Bob, thanks for the help. Steve. On 18/09/2007, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > nuckolls.bob@cox.net> > > At 07:05 PM 9/16/2007 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > > >"On the other hand, an RV with the battery right behind the Firewall can > >tolerate 4AWG cranking circuits because the > >round trip is only 4 or 5 feet long." Ref article :Wire Size Selection / > >Bob Nuckolls > > > > > >I have been thinking of wiring up the starter cct on an O-320 with #4 > >since the run is very short, but it leads me to a couple of questions: > > > >1) Anyone know the temp rise on the wire for 250 amps for say 5 secs? (I > >never crank this long normally.) > > Don't worry about it. The whole airplane's fat wires > can be 4AWG except for LONG runs where we go to 2AWG > to minimize wire drop. > > >2) Anyone know what the starter current drops to, once the starter is up > >to speed? > > About 200A depending on temperature and starter style. > But 4AWG is going to be fine. > > Bob . . . > > ---------------------------------------- > ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) > ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) > ( Good news weakens me." ) > ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) > ---------------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:39 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? The airplane was unable to maintain altitude and therefore forced to land on something other than an airport. It was a good thing it was day, vmc, and a road was near by. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:33 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? (Corvallis)" Yes but what exactly do you mean by a dual failure?....Did they both quit or did just one of them lose its timing and cause hight CHT's through detonation...That in itself is not a dual failure of course but it can bring the airplane down if you don't recognise the issue and shut the bad mag down. That's what happened to an RV 9 I believe....and it wasn't due to an installation issues. The above scenario did happen to me although the engine kept running. I have over 150 hours since the recent upgrades and I have not heard of any further issues exept for magnets that can become dislodged, which I believe has also now been remedied. As of right now I am satisfied with their reliability. frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:03 AM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I have seen a dual E-mag failure! Fortunately their was a road in the hills and nothing was lost except a few years of life. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:33 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Michael, You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly because of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users around, I'm one of them. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Sent: 17 September 2007 22:27 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There are better ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. If it's still a concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag. Michael Sausen RV-10 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Harley Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator. Harley Dixon ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Gray wrote: > > I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, your > rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for the > master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I stand > with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a different > system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go > through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait to do > it on the ground. > > > Bruce > www.Glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj > Merrill > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> >> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face when >> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The >> > pungent > >> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing you do? >> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly the >> >> > > In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that > would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent electrical > sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own internal > battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both > electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish. > You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, you > turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is > not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in. > > Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, and > all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story. > > -Dj > do not archive > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:15 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? In a message dated 09/18/2007 1:41:05 AM Central Daylight Time, peter@sportingaero.com writes: You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25 aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They are not comparable. >>> "This aircraft is Amateur-Built and does not comply with the Federal Safety Regulations for "Standard Aircraft" because OUR Standards are HIGHER!" 8-) Mark-do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:52 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Well said. I=92m glad someone got it=85 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? In a message dated 09/18/2007 1:41:05 AM Central Daylight Time, peter@sportingaero.com writes: You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25 aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They are not comparable. >>> "This aircraft is Amateur-Built and does not comply with the Federal Safety Regulations for "Standard Aircraft" because OUR Standards are HIGHER!" 8-) Mark-do not archive _____ See whattarget="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:05 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I don't think that is correct. The heavy iron EFIS systems are designed to the same standards as our little airplane systems. Those are DO 160 (electrical protection) and DO 178 (Software coding and testing). There are some under 100k systems that meet those standards. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:59 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Well said. I'm glad someone got it. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Fiveonepw@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 7:13 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? In a message dated 09/18/2007 1:41:05 AM Central Daylight Time, peter@sportingaero.com writes: You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25 aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They are not comparable. >>> "This aircraft is Amateur-Built and does not comply with the Federal Safety Regulations for "Standard Aircraft" because OUR Standards are HIGHER!" 8-) Mark-do not archive _____ See whattarget="_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. - The AeroElectric-List Email Forum - --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - --> http://forums.matronics.com 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:14 PM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: P/E mag spin off Hello, Since this thread seems to have taken a different direction and you are now referencing P/E mags I would like to make a comment. The wiring diagrams in Bob's Z figures don't agree with the way the P/E mag folks say to wire their products. I think it is likely that some of the problems experienced with P/E mags is because they were wired wrong. I suggest that if your going to use P/E mags wire them like Emagair says and follow their directions. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 5:46 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > The airplane was unable to maintain altitude and therefore forced to > land on something other than an airport. It was a good thing it was > day, vmc, and a road was near by. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:33 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > (Corvallis)" > > Yes but what exactly do you mean by a dual failure?....Did they both > quit or did just one of them lose its timing and cause hight CHT's > through detonation...That in itself is not a dual failure of course but > it can bring the airplane down if you don't recognise the issue and shut > the bad mag down. > > That's what happened to an RV 9 I believe....and it wasn't due to an > installation issues. > > The above scenario did happen to me although the engine kept running. I > have over 150 hours since the recent upgrades and I have not heard of > any further issues exept for magnets that can become dislodged, which I > believe has also now been remedied. > > As of right now I am satisfied with their reliability. > > frank > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:03 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > I have seen a dual E-mag failure! Fortunately their was a road in the > hills and nothing was lost except a few years of life. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter > Pengilly > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:33 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > > Michael, > > You've been listening to the people who have had problems, possibly > because of installation issues. There are many happy P/E-mag users > around, I'm one of them. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV > Builder (Michael Sausen) > Sent: 17 September 2007 22:27 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > > Hmmm, the P-Mag doesn't have the best operational history yet. There > are better ways to mitigate power failure to an all electric aircraft. > If it's still a concern I would suggest a standard mag over a p-mag. > > Michael Sausen > RV-10 > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Harley > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:25 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > > > > Hence the P-Mag for an EIS...all power on the aircraft can fail, and it > keeps on chugging away with it's own internal alternator. > > Harley Dixon > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Bruce Gray wrote: > >> >> I've had electrical fires in flight, at night, in IMC. Believe me, > your >> rational mind won't help you. You think fire and your hand reaches for > the >> master switch. I don't know how you plan to wire your airplane but I > stand >> with my earlier assessment. You need a backup AI powered by a > different >> system. It's so much easier to hit one switch (the master) and then go > >> through your rational trouble shooting procedure or better yet, wait > to do >> it on the ground. >> >> >> Bruce >> www.Glasair.org >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dj >> Merrill >> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:43 PM >> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? >> >> >> Bruce Gray wrote: >> > >>> >>> I can see you flying along, solid IMC with a happy smile on you face > when >>> all of a sudden you sniff that odor that all of us fear - smoke. The >>> >> pungent >> >>> smell of burning insulation hits your nose. What's the first thing > you > do? >>> Hit the master switch and turn all electrical off, Woops, gota fly > the >>> >>> >> >> In an all-electric airplane (including the engine computer), that >> would not be the prudent procedure. You have two independent > electrical >> sources, each separately controlled, PLUS each EFIS has its own > internal >> battery backup. You don't turn both of your EFIS units or both >> electrical systems off at the same time, that would be a bit foolish. >> You turn one electrical system off, and if the smoke does not stop, > you >> turn the first back on the the other off. The most important thing is > >> not to lose your head, that's where the proper training comes in. >> >> Give me a properly wired airplane and training on how to use it, > and >> all you'll have left is a dark and stormy night story. >> >> -Dj >> do not archive >> >> > > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM > > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM > > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM > > > 7/29/2007 11:14 PM > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:20 PM PST US From: "mike humphrey" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cessna Split Switch Left side is Alt and Right side is Battery. The confusion is that on the left side(Alt) in the middle is a single terminal and at the Bottom(off position) is a double pronged terminal. On the right side(Battery) in the middle is a double pronged terminal and at the bottom(OFF) there is a single terminal marked with 'N'. The problem is that it looks nothing closely related to the Z-13 diagram for an alt/bat switch where there are two terminals on the battery side and 4 terminals on the alt side. Ohm testing does not answer the question as to what do the terminals respectfully get connected to. There are no other markings on the switch except 'made in mexico'. Thanks in advance Mike H 9A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.