---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 09/19/07: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:33 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 09/18/07 (Ron Cox) 2. 07:16 AM - E/P mags (Michael T. Ice) 3. 07:27 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Valovich, Paul) 4. 07:56 AM - Re: Cessna Split Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:58 AM - of line until Friday (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:12 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 7. 10:41 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? () 8. 11:16 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? () 9. 11:35 AM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Bruce Gray) 10. 12:43 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Mike) 11. 02:38 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Peter Pengilly) 12. 03:46 PM - Re: EFIS as only reference??? (Terry Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 19 Msgs - 09/18/07 From: Ron Cox Ron, I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the backup is now an EFIS display. Mike Larkin ------------------------- Mike, Not one of those airplanes has ONLY a single EFIS and no backups. I fly the 777 and it definitely has multiple backups. I think an OBAM airplane with only electronic instruments could be engineered to be safe enough to fly IFR, But none of the systems out there aee reliable enough to make me feel safe with NO backup of any kind. And if I made a mistaken assumption that there was only one system, and that's not correct, then part of my message (i.e. "no backup") would not apply. But all of Bruce's points still do if the backups are all EFIS. I'm sorry, but as good as Bob's architecture suggestions are (and I'm usin them on my Glasair), they can't replace a failed device. I'd still feel better on the 777 with some sort of non-EFIS backup, but I'm satisfied that no reasonable person would argue that any GA EFIS (nor power distribution system) even approaches the reliability of what I fly behind, and I've seen 2 system failures on those in my time watching them. Fortunately, I had something to revert to. That was my point. Ron Cox ...... Original Message ....... On Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:55:35 -0700 AeroElectric-List Digest Server wrote: >Ron, > >I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under >part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the >Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the >backup is now an EFIS display. > >Mike Larkin > > (via Treo e-mail) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:37 AM PST US From: "Michael T. Ice" Subject: AeroElectric-List: E/P mags Hello, I have been reading the efis thread and saw the comments about the E/P mags. Since this thread seems to have taken a different direction and you are now referencing P/E mags I would like to make a comment. The following comments are my opinions. The wiring diagrams in Bob's Z figures don't agree with the way the P/E mag folks say to wire their products. I think it is likely that some of the problems experienced with P/E mags is because they were wired wrong. I suggest that if your going to use P/E mags wire them like Emagair says and follow their directions. Mike ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? From: "Valovich, Paul" I'm at the wiring stage of my RV-8A project: * Z-13/8 with either dual Lightspeeds or one Lightspeed/one P-mag (anyone used the latter configuration?) * AFS-3500, * TruTrak ADI Pilot II * Garmin 496 * Heated pitot * Back up airspeed, altimeter and VSI The underlying design philosophy: The EFIS is going to fail during this flight; and if in the goo, what are you going to do? 1. EFIS fails; electrical system ok - use the ADI and 496. 2. Primary electrical system failure - Switch to essential bus; know battery status 3. Total electrical system failure / or simultaneous EFIS / ADI failure - Rely on EFIS battery and 496 battery to land asap. 4. Total electrical system failure and total EFIS failure (no battery backup) - use battery-powered 496 instruments display; know where the ground is and get VFR asap. 5. Total electrical failure, and both EFIS and 496 battery backups fail - One of the reasons God invented life insurance - sometimes it just ain't your day. The point is - in our experimental world it's all about probabilities of failure and risk management. Risk cannot be eliminated, only understood and managed. Just my biased opinions. Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved (again) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:24 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cessna Split Switch At 02:10 AM 9/19/2007 -0400, you wrote: >Left side is Alt and Right side is Battery. The confusion is that on the >left side(Alt) in the middle is a single terminal and at the Bottom(off >position) is a double pronged terminal. On the right side(Battery) in the >middle is a double pronged terminal and at the bottom(OFF) there is a >single terminal marked with 'N'. The problem is that it looks nothing >closely related to the Z-13 diagram for an alt/bat switch where there are >two terminals on the battery side and 4 terminals on the alt side. Ohm >testing does not answer the question as to what do the terminals >respectfully get connected to. There are no other markings on the switch >except 'made in mexico'. Thanks in advance Mike H 9A The Cessna split rocker is a custom part by Carling made first for Cessna and I think picked up by the rest of the world. If you have not yet cut a hole, consider switching to a DPDT-ON-ON-ON switch like that depicted in the Z-figures and offered by B&C as their S700-2-10. This offers the same functionality as the split rocker but mounts in a single round hole and looks like the rest of the switches. It's probably less expensive too. Your "right" and "left" references on the rocker switch may not be relevant if the switch can be turned over in the hole. I.e., "up" can be either direction. The way to tell how to hook it up is test which position of both rockers opens both switches. This is the DOWN position of the switch. One of the rockers can be independently placed in the ON position without disturbing the other - this is the BATTERY switch. The other rocker will be the alternator side. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:04 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: of line until Friday Hopping on the big iron bird in a couple of hours to go support a client. Will be back on line Friday. Bob . . . ---------------------------------------- ( "Problems are the price of progress. ) ( Don't bring me anything but trouble. ) ( Good news weakens me." ) ( -Charles F. Kettering- ) ---------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:53 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Paul is one of the brightest people on this site. He is able to see the forest through the trees. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 7:26 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I=92m at the wiring stage of my RV-8A project: * Z-13/8 with either dual Lightspeeds or one Lightspeed/one P-mag (anyone used the latter configuration?) * AFS-3500, * TruTrak ADI Pilot II * Garmin 496 * Heated pitot * Back up airspeed, altimeter and VSI The underlying design philosophy: The EFIS is going to fail during this flight; and if in the goo, what are you going to do? 1. EFIS fails; electrical system ok ' use the ADI and 496. 2. Primary electrical system failure ' Switch to essential bus; know battery status 3. Total electrical system failure / or simultaneous EFIS / ADI failure ' Rely on EFIS battery and 496 battery to land asap. 4. Total electrical system failure and total EFIS failure (no battery backup) ' use battery-powered 496 instruments display; know where the ground is and get VFR asap. 5. Total electrical failure, and both EFIS and 496 battery backups fail ' One of the reasons God invented life insurance - sometimes it just ain=92t your day. The point is ' in our experimental world it=92s all about probabilities of failure and risk management. Risk cannot be eliminated, only understood and managed. Just my biased opinions. Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved (again) "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? From: Options, I will be using the new Aspen Avionics PFD (now) and MFD when released. The advanced MFD provides the backup instruments when #1 dies. Both have built in battery backup which is charged by the system when things are working normally (assume most days). My engine is a Subaru which is equally dependent on juice and arguably more important than a few gauges if I can actually see out the window. My MFD will be slaved to the backup system per Z19. Per crash landing instruction, nose goes towards the ground and you land as tail low as possible to save your neck. I have never yet stalled an aircraft with the nose pointing down - not to say it has not been done. Bottom line - if I am satisfied that z-19 is providing reasonable redundant protection to my engine, I need to have the same security with my efis. To help my lights and engine out situation Aspen has included a backup GPS inside their PFD and backup MFD. So, lights out, engine out - headed for the trees tail low at least I can push the nearest button to see where I could have gone. One thing only Paul has mentioned is probability. Remember that from statistics class? Yup, that's what the insurance companies use to figure out your life expectancy, when you will crash etc. I have no sample data from the nay-sayers of e-Panel only flight indicating more than 50 hours a year and specific exposure to the even the slightest risk (night, wx, snow, almost ice, etc). I do most of my flying at night because I like it - less traffic, tower has time to talk to me, no sun in my eyes etc. Is it risky? Absolutely, but I am always fascinated on my return by the absolute barren stillness at my airport (200 planes are sleeping). Where is all the risk? sleeping in the hangar? You can't eliminate risk, only mitigate it. If your exposure is incredibly low and you have done everything in your power to control your environment - you have nothing to mitigate against. To the earlier statement about cost, big iron and whatever the Aspen system is certified for most aircraft and will certainly be found in much bigger carbon fibre than mine. On top of that it cost about the same as a good set (mid-continent or similar) of six pack gauges. Their system is certified without the use of backup steam gauges. Does that mean it's perfect? 'course not, but nothing else is either. We make our decisions and move forward with them. P.S. As far as an independent backup gauge is concerned, I have an independent AOA meter which if used properly can be used to control speed and angle when crash landing in clear weather. Where I live (PHL) you probably won't like your landing choices anyway, but at least your glide angle will be really nice. By the way it was a wonderful but sad week at Reno. If you didn't hear families lost three pilots to various forces. The first incident occurred Tuesday right after take-off in absolutely perfect weather. Engine stopped, plane stalled, pilot killed. The plane stopped 30 yards from the runway. That's probability. At this point I am not overly perplexed about the security of what Aspen has spent 20 million dollars developing. In a year or two we'll all be using those crazy new lithium-nano batteries to run the entire airplane. Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 10:26 AM To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I'm at the wiring stage of my RV-8A project: * Z-13/8 with either dual Lightspeeds or one Lightspeed/one P-mag (anyone used the latter configuration?) * AFS-3500, * TruTrak ADI Pilot II * Garmin 496 * Heated pitot * Back up airspeed, altimeter and VSI The underlying design philosophy: The EFIS is going to fail during this flight; and if in the goo, what are you going to do? 1. EFIS fails; electrical system ok - use the ADI and 496. 2. Primary electrical system failure - Switch to essential bus; know battery status 3. Total electrical system failure / or simultaneous EFIS / ADI failure - Rely on EFIS battery and 496 battery to land asap. 4. Total electrical system failure and total EFIS failure (no battery backup) - use battery-powered 496 instruments display; know where the ground is and get VFR asap. 5. Total electrical failure, and both EFIS and 496 battery backups fail - One of the reasons God invented life insurance - sometimes it just ain't your day. The point is - in our experimental world it's all about probabilities of failure and risk management. Risk cannot be eliminated, only understood and managed. Just my biased opinions. Paul Valovich N192NM Reserved (again) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:49 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Bruce: What lighting protection does your little EFIS system installation have? May be the box it self has DO specs, but the installation does not. One lightning strke *could* take it ALL OUT. George >From: "Bruce Gray" >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > >I don't think that is correct. The heavy iron EFIS systems are designed >to the same standards as our little airplane systems. Those are DO 160 >(electrical protection) and DO 178 (Software coding and testing). There >aresome under 100k systems that meet those standards. > >Bruce --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:35:37 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? My airplane is plastic and I stay away from lightning as far as possible. Another reason to have a vacuum ADI. Bruce www.Glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Bruce: What lighting protection does your little EFIS system installation have? May be the box it self has DO specs, but the installation does not. One lightning strke *could* take it ALL OUT. George >From: "Bruce Gray" < Bruce@glasair.org> >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > >I don't think that is correct. The heavy iron EFIS systems are designed >to the same standards as our little airplane systems. Those are DO 160 >(electrical protection) and DO 178 (Software coding and testing). There >aresome under 100k systems that meet those standards. > >Bruce ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:43:30 PM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I=92ve been struck by lighting 3 time in my flying career. If you are in a little airplane and get struck, the least of your worries will be worrying if the EFIS continues to work. And that goes double for the E-glass guys. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Bruce: What lighting protection does your little EFIS system installation have? May be the box it self has DO specs, but the installation does not. One lightning strke *could* take it ALL OUT. George >From: "Bruce Gray" >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > >I don't think that is correct. The heavy iron EFIS systems are designed >to the same standards as our little airplane systems. Those are DO 160 >(electrical protection) and DO 178 (Software coding and testing). There >aresome under 100k systems that meet those standards. > >Bruce "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List"http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:47 PM PST US From: "Peter Pengilly" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I know because most of it runs on a Windows based operating system, and has not been designed from the start to comply with the relevant standards (if it had Windows would not have been used). There is no way that Windows anything will ever be compatible with a real time safety critical system (because it wasn't designed from the outset for that task). That's not to say it wont work just about all of the time, but do you want to risk your life on it? But that's not the point. The point is that you are taking a risk by using 2 non certified systems to back each other up. Its difficult to quantify that risk without in depth knowledge of how each system was designed & built, and that information is difficult to come by. The fact that Cheltons are so expensive illustrates the issue, very few people on this list could afford one - come to that I suspect not many could afford a Garmin G900! I know that Trutrak makes very good equipment, there are also many other companies that make rather poor stuff and its difficult to tell by looking at the outside. Its not about meeting govt standards, industry standards are just as strict. If it were easy to make a robust system cheaply I suspect Garmin would be offering one, that their cheapest is around $50K (I think) might be a hint as to the scale of the problem. Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: 18 September 2007 18:01 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Peter, How do you know! I'm sure all that part 25 stuff has nice stamps on the paperwork but it is still put together by people. How do you know the stuff that we buy won't make the standard? Having to meet FAA standards cost money, don't you believe that a product could meet a standard without the government? For example, the autopilots out there certified for use in small planes are in my 28 years of experience less or equal to the Truetrak product. Also the Chelton system is certified to part 25 standards by TSO and is under $100,000. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 11:38 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Mike, You're missing the point. The hardware & software of EFIS in part 25 aircraft, and their back-ups, are designed, built and tested to standards far in excess of anything that we can afford to put in our airplanes. They are not comparable. Regards, Peter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Sent: 17 September 2007 23:41 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? Ron, I can name many airplanes that have EFIS only and are certified under part 25. The newer Airbus A318, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380 and the Boeing 777 just to name a few. Take a close at the newest stuff, the backup is now an EFIS display. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Cox Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:48 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? > Time: 01:24:52 PM PST US > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: switch suitability? > From: "Chris Johnston" > ... > your reply that i have too many and the > wrong things is curious to me. the aircraft has no "conventional" > instruments, so the EFIS and AHRS are essential. Chris, This statement indicates to me that you may harbor a certain naivete about the current state of development and reliability of EFIS/AHRS systems. As a new pilot with an instrument rating, it's natural to want to have the greatest thing that comes along. I just bought a really cool EFIS add-on system for my Glasair project and I use it in my Cessna now, but it's not the only way to fly the airplane. I like it alot, but I don't count on it to keep my body parts within their casing. IT will be the backup in case of failure of my primary (traditional) instruments. But if you are working on a plane you intend to fly in real IFR, and do indeed have NO backup instruments, I'm afraid your electrical distribution system is far from the weakest point in your airplane. If you plan to fly only VFR, then the systems are even less "essential", and again, they don't need to be on the "E-bus". There are currently NO EFIS systems out there for the market most of us are looking at (i.e. non-military, non-$100K) that have the kind of proven reliability and lack of single-point failure possibilities that even the old vacuum gyro systems should be configured to give you. In other words, if you do have, say an internal power supply failure, or complete display failure in your EFIS system, what is your plan? Your E-bus may be powered, and if you follow Bob's advice, it almost surely will be, but how are you going to control the airplane???? Bob's advice to look again at your system is good advice (as it usuallyall is.) He always reminds us to look at the possible failure points in a design, and decide which are not problems, which are, and to figure out how to assure that those which are problems are prevented to the greatest extent possible. I strongly suggest you do some additional research before trusting your life to what's really generation 1.5 of general aviation EFIS systems. They're great, when they work, and they usually do, but it's nothing short of criminally negligent to put ALL your eggs in that kind of basket. There isn't anywhere near enough industry-wide experience with these systems yet to even KNOW what their real in-service failure rate is, let alone determine whether it's low enough or not. Do a little Googling on EFIS systems, no matter which brand, and you'll find a legion of folks who love them, but don't trust them, and they'll tell you perfectly good reasons why. EVERY system I've looked into has its share of "boy am I glad I had a backup" stories. What GA airplane do you see out there that has only an EFIS and no backups? There's a reason for that. Ron Cox (Old pilot with an instrument rating, and one who has well over 10,000 hours flying behind fantastically expensive commercial EFIS systems, but we have backups!) 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM 7/29/2007 11:14 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:41 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? In general, "Certification" means that at some point the system passed certain set of criteria and the design was frozen at that point. It won't get any better unless something is found to be broken and has to be fixed, otherwise it is a design frozen in time, like a Lycomming 0-360 or a Cessna 172. Sure, they change -but only in ways that won't make them go through certification again. I don't know about most of the great looking new low cost EFIS systems, but I know for certain that my Bluemountain EFIS/one does not use a Windows operating system, and I wouldn't veto a system that did. I have read that Windows is very stable when it is used in a system that is isolated from other software. An EFIS is not constantly being exposed to various other programs, viruses and hackers like a PC is. It is isolated, or used with limited and tested outside software. The downside of most "certified" products is that they are the best that a company could come up with and get through the tests and to market, at some point in the past. If you feel the need for a certified engine, get one, but I don't think your certified Lycoming is any more reliable than my non-certified Superior. If you don't trust non-certified avionics, then pay the price for the tried and tested and blessed, but don't expect to get if for anything like the price of the non-certified, and don't expect to have the advantages of the latest technology. It would seem that many of those who fly big airplanes for a living tend not to trust little airplanes anyway, especially the ones with only one engine and certainly not the ones that don't have dual redundant certified IFR avionics. And if it wasn't built by "certified" A&P's in a "certified" shop, forget about it! Terry RV-8A, Superior, True-Trak, Trio, Bluemountain, Airflow Performance -- all uncertified And none of it flying yet -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pengilly Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:37 PM Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: EFIS as only reference??? I know because most of it runs on a Windows based operating system, and has not been designed from the start to comply with the relevant standards (if it had Windows would not have been used). There is no way that Windows anything will ever be compatible with a real time safety critical system (because it wasn't designed from the outset for that task). That's not to say it wont work just about all of the time, but do you want to risk your life on it? But that's not the point. The point is that you are taking a risk by using 2 non certified systems to back each other up. Its difficult to quantify that risk without in depth knowledge of how each system was designed & built, and that information is difficult to come by. The fact that Cheltons are so expensive illustrates the issue, very few people on this list could afford one - come to that I suspect not many could afford a Garmin G900! I know that Trutrak makes very good equipment, there are also many other companies that make rather poor stuff and its difficult to tell by looking at the outside. Its not about meeting govt standards, industry standards are just as strict. If it were easy to make a robust system cheaply I suspect Garmin would be offering one, that their cheapest is around $50K (I think) might be a hint as to the scale of the problem. Peter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.